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Kanluwen wrote:

1)The Predator is not going to be rolling into a major tank battle like the Leman Russ will be. It's going to be engaging targets from the side, stalking enemy armor and ambushing them.
Almost like a...well, predator of some kind. The Leman Russ is like a wolf(no pun intended, seriously!), operating quite effectively in groups of tanks to bring down heavier foes. The Predator is more like a mountain lion or a cougar, attacking from ambush and bringing down targets without ever really giving them a chance to fight back. The exception to this is the Baal Predator variant, which is more like a rabid dog charging in and hoping it hits something.

Why thank you Kan, now I can't get the image of a national Geographic wildlife documentary out of my head "This is the noble Predator, it is a hunter on all terrains. Oh look there is a Chaos infected herd of Leman Russ', like all predators the the Predator tank will stalk the herd until it locates the weakest link. At that point the Predator rushes forward and kills the weakest prey, scattering the herd"*Lascannon fires* " With its deadly arsenal of killing tools the predator can easily take down a single member before any others can react."...............my hat is seriously off to Kan you I never thought a National Geographic documentary would come to mind whilst on Dakka.

Okay random humor aside I think Kan nailed this question on the head, and showed exactly why SM don't use IG vehicles.

Kanluwen wrote:The Chimera is essentially a "rolling bunker"--and is used as such, in terms of the background. Guardsmen use the Chimera as what amounts to a mobile operating station. The thing is jampacked with recharging stations for Lasguns, usually filled with spare ammunition for the squad's support weapons, and has fairly complex communications uplink gear allowing for the officer in charge of the squad to be constantly in contact with the higher echelons..

To add to this :
Note that the other guns on the top of a chimera are lasguns, and not heavy weapons. The 3 plasma guns and 1 LC vet poking their guns out of those holes to reign death out the chimera is a new phenomenon. If the Chimera is just armed with a scatter laser and HB, its not nearly as threatening.

@Kan, The rhino is manufactored solely by the admec. Which implies only on forge worlds. On the other hand, chimeras are massed produced on hives as well.

Now people point out that the rhino doesnt need to be amphibious due to sms are quick striking, always using drop pods. Which iwnt always the case. If they needed to go over a river in a rhino, they have to find a ford or a bridge, chimeras zip on over.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:@Kan, The rhino is manufactured solely by the admech. Which implies only on forge worlds.On the other hand, chimeras are massed produced on hives as well.

You're completely mistaken, and here's why.

The Rhino is not "manufactured solely by the Adeptus Mechanicus". The Astartes CAN and DO manufacture their own equipment; when necessary or when they feel it's needed for them to do so. The fact that "Chimeras are mass produced on Hive Worlds" is completely irrelevant, as Forge Worlds are not the only place manufacturing things under the auspices of the Mechanicus.

Now people point out that the rhino doesnt need to be amphibious due to sms are quick striking, always using drop pods. Which iwnt always the case. If they needed to go over a river in a rhino, they have to find a ford or a bridge, chimeras zip on over.

If they needed to go over a river in a Rhino, they seal up the hatches and keep driving. There's a whole thing in Planetstrike about a "war beneath the waves" where the Space Wolves fought the Tau on an oceanic world, using Rhinos and Land Raiders to drive along the seafloor and engage specially modified Battlesuits.

Kanluwen wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:@Kan, The rhino is manufactured solely by the admech. Which implies only on forge worlds.On the other hand, chimeras are massed produced on hives as well.

You're completely mistaken, and here's why.

The Rhino is not "manufactured solely by the Adeptus Mechanicus". The Astartes CAN and DO manufacture their own equipment; when necessary or when they feel it's needed for them to do so. The fact that "Chimeras are mass produced on Hive Worlds" is completely irrelevant, as Forge Worlds are not the only place manufacturing things under the auspices of the Mechanicus.

Not to mention this is the reason Space Marines train Techmarines. Techmarines and the Master of the Forge produce the chatpers weapons and equipment. Some chapters even produce their own power armour, and most produce their own weapons and ammunition. Techmarines are there so that a portion of the chapter are trained in constructing equipment. It is done by the chapter, at their fortress monastery.

And kan, your completely mistaken. Lexacanum says that they are only manufactured by the admec.

Now, only the Adeptus Mechanicus possess the knowledge to build a Rhino (although a Rhino could easily be built on virtually any world in the Imperium if it possessed a copy of the Rhino design schemes).

they cite IA 2 as source. The only know to the ad mec supports the only the ad mec builds it.

And as for driving underwater, thats plain silly. You got to drive along the bottom of the riverbed, hoping you dont get bogged down, or hit something, since you cant see.
Plus your example is from the SW codex page 20, and they only had land raiders.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:And kan, your completely mistaken. Lexacanum says that they are only manufactured by the admec.

Now, only the Adeptus Mechanicus possess the knowledge to build a Rhino (although a Rhino could easily be built on virtually any world in the Imperium if it possessed a copy of the Rhino design schemes).

they cite IA 2 as source. The only know to the ad mec supports the only the ad mec builds it.

Funny thing is, that's not anywhere in IA2. The construction section only talks about how the Techmarine builder calls upon the Spirit of the Machine God to invest the new Rhino with power.

And as for driving underwater, thats plain silly. You got to drive along the bottom of the riverbed, hoping you dont get bogged down, or hit something, since you cant see.
Plus your example is from the SW codex page 20, and they only had land raiders.

So what you're saying is that my example still exists within 40k, and applies to the Astartes.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:And kan, your completely mistaken. Lexacanum says

Your argument just lost all credibility. Lexicanium is a wiki. It's not a reliable source of information.

If you want to argue these things, get the books, don't cite an unreliable wiki.

No kan, i said they only had land raiders. You know the giant tanks that can carry terrmies. No mention of rhinos. So yea a LAND RAIDER can drive on the bottom of a river no problem.

Look we're arguing in circles. The Chimera is clearly the better transport:
Amphibious
2x heavy weapons
Thicker frontal armor
Can carry more troops
The rear hatch isnt a big dral, unless their assualting, they can use the chimera as cover. I dont care if their walking tanks, lasguns can still kill them, so they should take cover.

Clearly neither are better as they have different roles. The Chimera a bunker for prolonged conflicts, the Rhino a fist filled with walking tanks to punch through to the enemy lines.

riplikash wrote:

ninja13 wrote:Well does it really matter that the rhino can be maintained easily? The chimera is made in a lot of places therefore having more access to the vehicle. But the other points are really good so I'll just agreee with them.

The benefit of the Rhino's maintainability is that it requires almost NO logistical support. No spare parts, no techpriests.

The IG always has logistical support, at least if it is going to win, so this isn't a problem. Space marines usually do not. A chimera is going to be down when it breaks down, a Rhino won't be. Worst case scenario they can combine two wrecked Rhinos to create a new one.

That is almost enough reason for the space marines to use them right there. They can fight protracted campaigns in isolation, something they could not do with a Chimera.

Add that to it's greater climb angle and more versatile exits, and I think it makes a good case for itself as a SM vehicle.

Yeah, this.

Rhinos are so easy to repair, they can be repaired by the marines themselves while sitting in the vehicle.

The Imperial guard is always at the end of a massive supply chain, while space marines almost never are. Having something that's easier on your logistics is simply a must. If anything, you've almost got to wonder why space marines don't use lasguns...

Plus, as was only spottily mentioned, chimeras aren't better armored, they're only better FRONT armored. The chimera has a total armor rating of 42, while the rhino's is 43.

Thickness of armour is only relevant if you assume the armour of a Rhino and Chimera are of equal quality. Which is... debatable. I'm pretty sure it's been well established in most sources that Astartes-grade Rhinos are armoured with more sophisticated materials than what Chimeras use (only IA2 comes to mind, but I'm pretty sure it was repeated in other sources). So even if the armor is thinner, it can still be superior due to the better materials.

I wouldn't neccesairly assume more engine power = superior vehicle, because As I recall Atlas recovery tanks have tremendous engine power (to allow them to tow superheavies) yet they tend to be outperformed in the field. There's more to engine performance than just how much horsepower the engine puts out - you need a way to efficiently translate that power into motion. Given that the Rhino is lighter than the Chimera and yet has the same performance, I'd imagine that the engine is probably vastly more efficient (which makes sense given how the drive system is described overall.) A more efficient engine will strain less, be more fuel efficient, be less noisy and a lighter vehicle can be employed on a greater variety of terrain without problem (the ground pressure issue is one modern tanks like the Abrams face.)

armour of the space marines may be too bulky or too heavy to have them fit and it could just be arrogance on the SM part because they think they have a better vehicle like how the marines use the huey and the army has the blackhawk and the Rhino is the main chassis for most of the SM's vehicles so it is just cost effective maybe an old pred can be turned into a rhino or vice-versa

The Rhino is an STC vehicle and as such was developed during mankind's height of technological superiority. It is only because the Rhino is difficult to make in the relatively backward Imperium that its use is restricted to organizations like the astartes, ordos and sororitas.
Its original function was to explore new worlds so obviously it is capable of traversing all kinds of terrain including water.

Both GW and their subsidiary Forgeworld make up specs to fit in with how things are used in game. Kind of like drop pods suddenly being able to carry extra passengers.

I imagine an actual rhino would be superior to a chimera in just about any way you care to look at it, but gamewise the guard need something to make up for their troops being so weak.

Then again the idea that an armoured vehicle of the future can only do 70 odd kms an hour is laughable, modern apcs can do 100 and the Rhino was created at the height of human achievement and despite the Imperium's regression it is still the same vehicle that was designed all that time ago.

Forgive me if I'm missing a point, bu how the do you get a full tactical squad in a chimera?
Average height
Guardsman : 5ft
Space marine: 7ft (+armour, weapons, backpacks)
Terminator: 8ft (+armour, teleporter packs, ect)

Unless your chimera has a roof extension I fail to see, fluff-wise, or game-wise how you can fit that many space marines into an Imperial guard vehicle ( which by the way just so happens to be on fire right behind you with a bunch of chaos flamers burning the poor sods inside)

Also, how are lasguns better than what the space marines have? In my experience, I would rather have a storm bolter and a hunter killer than half a dozen duracell bunny las-flashlights at my disposal. People say that imperial guard make up their lack of quality in quantity, so lots of rubbish guns must do something right? You think about that.

Because they don't... End of story...

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not sure in what world you've come up with these 1:1 comparisons, but stop. Astartes are not Guardsmen, and do not need vehicles to do the same thing.

Kan, we're not trying to make a 1:1 comparison here. Re again the thread title. "why don't sm use chimeras?"

All we're saying is that a chimera could do the job of a rhino, and be better at it. SM forces rely on mobility and flexibility, and that's one thing a chimera can provide just as good as any rhino, with some extra firepower as a bonus, all this for a much lower price.

Drakeslayer wrote:Forgive me if I'm missing a point, bu how the do you get a full tactical squad in a chimera?
Average height
Guardsman : 5ft
Space marine: 7ft (+armour, weapons, backpacks)
Terminator: 8ft (+armour, teleporter packs, ect)

Unless your chimera has a roof extension I fail to see, fluff-wise, or game-wise how you can fit that many space marines into an Imperial guard vehicle ( which by the way just so happens to be on fire right behind you with a bunch of chaos flamers burning the poor sods inside)

Also, how are lasguns better than what the space marines have? In my experience, I would rather have a storm bolter and a hunter killer than half a dozen duracell bunny las-flashlights at my disposal. People say that imperial guard make up their lack of quality in quantity, so lots of rubbish guns must do something right? You think about that.

1. The chimera is roughly the same size as a rhino.
2. The Lasgun is a magnificent weapon, easy to maintain, easy to find ammo, accurate, and relible. And capible of blowing a mans head off. It only pales to a automatic rpg.
3. Chimeras have Multi-Lasers and Heavy Bolters. Or autocannons, rhinos are armed with storm bolter.
4. Those duracel guns are treditary armorment. See above for the real guns of a chimera.
5. At least the guardsmen who are being flamed are fighting. Not setting at their fortress on baal, polishing their armor, and brushing their hair, and other pretty boy vampire emo activities. Lol. Blood angels.

6. Humans are closer to 6 feet tall on average. 5'9'' to be exact. You may have mess uped your metric to (what ever the us system is called)
7. Point 5 is a joke in response to your jest about a burning chimera.

Laodamia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not sure in what world you've come up with these 1:1 comparisons, but stop. Astartes are not Guardsmen, and do not need vehicles to do the same thing.

Kan, we're not trying to make a 1:1 comparison here. Re again the thread title. "why don't sm use chimeras?"

All we're saying is that a chimera could do the job of a rhino, and be better at it. SM forces rely on mobility and flexibility, and that's one thing a chimera can provide just as good as any rhino, with some extra firepower as a bonus, all this for a much lower price.

You're making a 1:1 comparison right now.

You cannot compare two vehicles which are not made for the same role or even utilized by the same forces in the same way without taking these things into account.
The Chimera can't be carried by a Thunderhawk Transporter, like the Rhino can be.
The Rhino can't be parked hull down and then sandbagged as a defensive position anchoring a firing line, like the Chimera can.
The Chimera can't be outfitted with overcharged engines or repair itself, like the Rhino can.

I could go on for days, but the fact is you're focusing too much on ONE aspect of ONE vehicle being better than the other. The Chimera is not better than the Rhino for the Astartes.

Laodamia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not sure in what world you've come up with these 1:1 comparisons, but stop. Astartes are not Guardsmen, and do not need vehicles to do the same thing.

Kan, we're not trying to make a 1:1 comparison here. Re again the thread title. "why don't sm use chimeras?"

All we're saying is that a chimera could do the job of a rhino, and be better at it. SM forces rely on mobility and flexibility, and that's one thing a chimera can provide just as good as any rhino, with some extra firepower as a bonus, all this for a much lower price.

How would a slower vehicle be better for Space Marines?

Someone mentioned that they had the same top speeds. Consider that a Rhino packed with 10 500 pound space marines and their equipment travels the same speed as a Chimera packed with 10 100 pound Guardsmen and their equipment. If the Chimera had 5000 pounds worth of Space Marine in it, it wouldn't be travelling anywhere near as fast.

-Loki- wrote:

Laodamia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not sure in what world you've come up with these 1:1 comparisons, but stop. Astartes are not Guardsmen, and do not need vehicles to do the same thing.

Kan, we're not trying to make a 1:1 comparison here. Re again the thread title. "why don't sm use chimeras?"

All we're saying is that a chimera could do the job of a rhino, and be better at it. SM forces rely on mobility and flexibility, and that's one thing a chimera can provide just as good as any rhino, with some extra firepower as a bonus, all this for a much lower price.

How would a slower vehicle be better for Space Marines?

Someone mentioned that they had the same top speeds. Consider that a Rhino packed with 10 500 pound space marines and their equipment travels the same speed as a Chimera packed with 10 100 pound Guardsmen and their equipment. If the Chimera had 5000 pounds worth of Space Marine in it, it wouldn't be travelling anywhere near as fast.

Unless the Rhino has much more horsepower than the Chimera, which would make sense as to the being able to traverse steeper terrain.

As to the point of Chimera's being able to be sandbagged up it is worth noting the Space Marines do not like fighting in that manner whatsoever. All the fluff I have read points to the fact that if Space Marines are locked down and unable to utilise their mobility they end up losing a grievous amount of troops eg. Tarsis Ultra,Actions against hive fleet behemoth, and many Horus Heresy battles.

Ratius wrote:On the subject of engines, model-wise, where on Earth is the Chimeras located?

No where anymore. Remember the things on the sides of the track units that used to stick out and are now nearly flush?

That's where the engines were, at least according to their IA entry.

Wardragoon wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Laodamia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not sure in what world you've come up with these 1:1 comparisons, but stop. Astartes are not Guardsmen, and do not need vehicles to do the same thing.

Kan, we're not trying to make a 1:1 comparison here. Re again the thread title. "why don't sm use chimeras?"

All we're saying is that a chimera could do the job of a rhino, and be better at it. SM forces rely on mobility and flexibility, and that's one thing a chimera can provide just as good as any rhino, with some extra firepower as a bonus, all this for a much lower price.

How would a slower vehicle be better for Space Marines?

Someone mentioned that they had the same top speeds. Consider that a Rhino packed with 10 500 pound space marines and their equipment travels the same speed as a Chimera packed with 10 100 pound Guardsmen and their equipment. If the Chimera had 5000 pounds worth of Space Marine in it, it wouldn't be travelling anywhere near as fast.

Unless the Rhino has much more horsepower than the Chimera, which would make sense as to the being able to traverse steeper terrain.

As to the point of Chimera's being able to be sandbagged up it is worth noting the Space Marines do not like fighting in that manner whatsoever. All the fluff I have read points to the fact that if Space Marines are locked down and unable to utilise their mobility they end up losing a grievous amount of troops eg. Tarsis Ultra,Actions against hive fleet behemoth, and many Horus Heresy battles.

Space Marines are rapid assault shock troops for the most part. They drop in via drop pod or thunderhawk into the middle of the enemy, kill everything, and extract.

Though some do fight statically. Imperial Fists are reknowned defensive specialists, it was Dorns greatest attribute and why he was chosen to reinforce the defenses of the Imperial Palace.

Spess Mahreens, having at most only 1000 troops, are best used for surgical strikes, rapid assaults, raiding, etc. I sorta chuckle every time a Marine chapter are described as "siege specialists or something similar, as if Marines would ever be caught up in such maneuvers. Does the Codex Astartes cover siege warfare? Most definitely, given the way it has been described, but I can't imagine a fighting force that small really wastes too much time considering long term (meaning months or years) defensive or offensive schemes. Siege warfare is the province of the Imperial Guard, which can afford to sit around for years at a time and throw tens of thousands(or more) of troops at a problem.

Space Marines would strike hard and fast and GTFO. Even warriors worth ten normal men die when they stack enough tens of men against them. Short holding actions? Sure. Rogal Dorn had an entire legion. The current Chapter Master has nowhere near that many.

They have, and have had, the Rhino for thousands of years. Many of them are revered artifacts, much in the same way as Dreadnoughts, and each is unique and special. Why swap them out for a mass produced APC used by common Guardsmen?