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KplKeegan wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: I wanted to hear other thoughts and opinions on who you think we as an army struggle to defeat in 40k. I am curious to hear counters to those armies as well as highlights or worrisome things. In other words I am trying to engage in an all out ego stroking contest between orks and the rest of 40k but actually learn something from it.

Does exotic, Imperial Armory lists count? Because you Orks love to struggle against my Elysian drop list no matter what you guys throw at me...

a tactic you think we struggle against egh? explain.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: I wanted to hear other thoughts and opinions on who you think we as an army struggle to defeat in 40k. I am curious to hear counters to those armies as well as highlights or worrisome things. In other words I am trying to engage in an all out ego stroking contest between orks and the rest of 40k but actually learn something from it.

Does exotic, Imperial Armory lists count? Because you Orks love to struggle against my Elysian drop list no matter what you guys throw at me...

a tactic you think we struggle against egh? explain.

Actually, there is a lot of IA stuff that can erase entire mobs, even without being apoc. Like XV9s, and TX-42's

im2randomghgh wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: I wanted to hear other thoughts and opinions on who you think we as an army struggle to defeat in 40k. I am curious to hear counters to those armies as well as highlights or worrisome things. In other words I am trying to engage in an all out ego stroking contest between orks and the rest of 40k but actually learn something from it.

Does exotic, Imperial Armory lists count? Because you Orks love to struggle against my Elysian drop list no matter what you guys throw at me...

a tactic you think we struggle against egh? explain.

Actually, there is a lot of IA stuff that can erase entire mobs, even without being apoc. Like XV9s, and TX-42's

Lol not a better explanation of why i don't play IA games than that quote right there. I think it's fun but not balanced unless you partake of the cheese as well. Even then i comes down army vs army because too many people like IG will have amazing things but Sisters of Battle might have hardly a thing worth taking

i just now realized i didn't notice this was tallking about IA till your post tho lol. orginal statement retracted.

If we were to rate the 5 hardest armies to go up against though what would they be and what order would you put them in. I will list mine right now though

1. Tyranids (MC's out the butt and too many poopers makes a hard fight for my tactics, that and genestealers normally always make their points despite the guantlet of tactics i use against them)
2. Grey Knights (NADES NADES NADES zomg nades + Paladins = crai)
3. Dark Eldar (High init makes it really dangerous to face them on my terms i need to normally switch things up to win)
4. Chaos Space Marines (LASH! oh and Rot of Nurgle both are stupid powerful tools against my army)
5. Imperial Guard (This one requires notation, I normally never have problems with them but a properly tailored list would have me throwing profanity left and right if i saw it, hell hounds, Collusi cannons, Nova cannons ect ect ect.)

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: I wanted to hear other thoughts and opinions on who you think we as an army struggle to defeat in 40k. I am curious to hear counters to those armies as well as highlights or worrisome things. In other words I am trying to engage in an all out ego stroking contest between orks and the rest of 40k but actually learn something from it.

Does exotic, Imperial Armory lists count? Because you Orks love to struggle against my Elysian drop list no matter what you guys throw at me...

a tactic you think we struggle against egh? explain.

Actually, there is a lot of IA stuff that can erase entire mobs, even without being apoc. Like XV9s, and TX-42's

Lol not a better explanation of why i don't play IA games than that quote right there. I think it's fun but not balanced unless you partake of the cheese as well. Even then i comes down army vs army because too many people like IG will have amazing things but Sisters of Battle might have hardly a thing worth taking

You should play against them, as they are less cheesey than many a codex, as well as the fact that strong units cost huge points. An XV9 squad with Shield Generators and pulse submunitions rifles attached to shas'O r'alai costs 625 points, for 8 small blasts a turn.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: I wanted to hear other thoughts and opinions on who you think we as an army struggle to defeat in 40k. I am curious to hear counters to those armies as well as highlights or worrisome things. In other words I am trying to engage in an all out ego stroking contest between orks and the rest of 40k but actually learn something from it.

Does exotic, Imperial Armory lists count? Because you Orks love to struggle against my Elysian drop list no matter what you guys throw at me...

a tactic you think we struggle against egh? explain.

Actually, there is a lot of IA stuff that can erase entire mobs, even without being apoc. Like XV9s, and TX-42's

Lol not a better explanation of why i don't play IA games than that quote right there. I think it's fun but not balanced unless you partake of the cheese as well. Even then i comes down army vs army because too many people like IG will have amazing things but Sisters of Battle might have hardly a thing worth taking

i just now realized i didn't notice this was tallking about IA till your post tho lol. orginal statement retracted.

I'll have you know that an Elysians are not cheese and is far less forgiving than the current Imperial Guard Codex with a myriad of restrictions. Its actually pretty well balanced when you compare the two. But Orks struggle against my list because its so well rounded and aggressive, which most Ork players aren't expecting . And Orks of all Orks would love IA 8 for the Kan and Dread lists you can build.

But any fast, flying skimmer with enough shots can wreck anything the Orks put up (aside the Battle Wagons and Perhaps Nobs, but my Multi-Melta Sentinels and Tauros Venator Multi-Lasers deal with them ); essentially Valkyries and Vendettas. Multiple Rocket Pods and Hellstrike missiles just wreck mobs of boyz and the Las Cannons just sully Ork Kanz and Battle Wagonz. I won't mention my Vulture Gunships (Twin-Linked Punisher Gatling Cannons are soooooo awsome), but yea, that's my main two cents about Orky... Orkyness in general.

KplKeegan wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: I wanted to hear other thoughts and opinions on who you think we as an army struggle to defeat in 40k. I am curious to hear counters to those armies as well as highlights or worrisome things. In other words I am trying to engage in an all out ego stroking contest between orks and the rest of 40k but actually learn something from it.

Does exotic, Imperial Armory lists count? Because you Orks love to struggle against my Elysian drop list no matter what you guys throw at me...

a tactic you think we struggle against egh? explain.

Actually, there is a lot of IA stuff that can erase entire mobs, even without being apoc. Like XV9s, and TX-42's

Lol not a better explanation of why i don't play IA games than that quote right there. I think it's fun but not balanced unless you partake of the cheese as well. Even then i comes down army vs army because too many people like IG will have amazing things but Sisters of Battle might have hardly a thing worth taking

i just now realized i didn't notice this was tallking about IA till your post tho lol. orginal statement retracted.

I'll have you know that an Elysians are not cheese and is far less forgiving than the current Imperial Guard Codex with a myriad of restrictions. Its actually pretty well balanced when you compare the two. But Orks struggle against my list because its so well rounded and aggressive, which most Ork players aren't expecting . And Orks of all Orks would love IA 8 for the Kan and Dread lists you can build.

But any fast, flying skimmer with enough shots can wreck anything the Orks put up (aside the Battle Wagons and Perhaps Nobs, but my Multi-Melta Sentinels and Tauros Venator Multi-Lasers deal with them ); essentially Valkyries and Vendettas. Multiple Rocket Pods and Hellstrike missiles just wreck mobs of boyz and the Las Cannons just sully Ork Kanz and Battle Wagonz. I won't mention my Vulture Gunships (Twin-Linked Punisher Gatling Cannons are soooooo awsome), but yea, that's my main two cents about Orky... Orkyness in general.

the tau probably get more usefulness out of IA then the IG do, though. 2D3 melta is very useful, along with R'alai's assault 2 lascannon and assorted other party tricks.

Alright, Tactica time boyz! I need some suggestions for a good Cron Cracker list with the orks. I'm thinking foot slogging is the best options maybe some kanwall or perhaps looted wagons?

A strategy I'm trying to do is an ork warbike deffkopta loota trukk boyz combo against things like try gobs/ transports. Deffs shoot blasts for 3up armor or heavy armor then a squad of gitz opens fire if the tank or enemy remain then the warbikers have a go with their Dakka and finally the trukk boyz finish dem off

Translation:

Defeatmyarmy wrote:A strategy I'm trying to do is an ork/warbike/deffkopta/loota/trukk boyz combo against things like units in transports. Deff koptaz shoot rokkits for 3+ armor or heavy armor, then a squad of gitz opens fire. If the tank or enemy remain, then the warbikers have a go with their Dakka guns and finally the trukk boyz charge to finish dem off

Seriously, your post is almost unreadable, a minimum of punctuation will result in much more people understanding and thus responding to your post.

As for the proposed tactica, it looks like a solid dakka list to me, but I'd think that shoota boyz would fit in better with your flash gits. You could also drop the gitz for big guns or looted wagons instead, as they have enough reach to not slow your army down.

Sounds like I am hearing wounds > Armor value which makes sense. I'll have a list here soonish i am probably gonna still use my Big mek still, though i am tempted to try a few Meganobz against them as I imagine 2+ armor with 2 wounds each while having power klaws might be a powerful tool against them

Nobz in general seem to be a good idea vs Necrons, as they don't have a lot of S8 shooting, and most of it competes for the heavy support slot. Just don't charge stuff with mindshackle scarabs or lightning field.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Alright, Tactica time boyz! I need some suggestions for a good Cron Cracker list with the orks. I'm thinking foot slogging is the best options maybe some kanwall or perhaps looted wagons?

Kanz could be good, all those walkers will be decent against crons. There's still the fact that boyz will still own Warriors if they get into combat, and entropic strike doesn't really matter to ork boyz (and to some extent, warbosses, unless you like your warboss to wear mega-armor) Try and keep the kanz away from any scarabs, and use Lootas to stun/shake any ghost arks, as you don't want a broadside to hit your lines.

I'm working on a list but I am having the urge to go REALLY assualty when i know it's a bad idea... things like mega armor nobz killa kannons ect ect ect.

I want to play an all comers list with this enemy but we both are really competitive with one another and I am thinking about just running my normal kan wall and seeing how it does.

Problem is... i know for a fact he is going to take that earth shard thingy? the one where everything is bad terrian no matter what *shrug* no idea what it is called atm.

how spammable is lightning field and mindshackle scarabs? Remind me of LF's effect again pls?


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1500 Speed list

HQ: Wazdakka Gutsmek (1#, 180 pts)
1 Wazdakka Gutsmek, 180 pts

Elite: Nob Bikers (7#, 465 pts)
1 Nob Bikers, 465 pts (Warbike)
1 Painboy (Warbike)
1 Nobz (Warbike; Big Choppa)
1 Nobz (Warbike; Big Choppa; Shoota/Skorcha Kombi-weapon)
1 Nobz (Warbike; Bosspole; Big Choppa)
1 Nobz (Warbike; Power Klaw)
1 Nobz (Warbike; Waaagh! Banner; Power Klaw)
1 Nobz (Warbike; Power Klaw; Shoota/Skorcha Kombi-weapon)

Troops: Warbikers (8#, 240 pts)
7 Warbikers, 240 pts
1 Biker Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)

Troops: Warbikers (8#, 240 pts)
7 Warbikers, 240 pts
1 Biker Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)

Fast Attack: Deffkoptas (1#, 70 pts)
1 Deffkoptas, 70 pts (Twin Linked Rokkit Launcha x1; Buzzsaw x1)

Fast Attack: Deffkoptas (1#, 70 pts)
1 Deffkoptas, 70 pts (Twin Linked Rokkit Launcha x1; Buzzsaw x1)

Fast Attack: Deffkoptas (1#, 70 pts)
1 Deffkoptas, 70 pts (Twin Linked Rokkit Launcha x1; Buzzsaw x1)

Elite: Kommandos (6#, 165 pts)
5 Kommandos, 165 pts (Burna x2)
1 Boss Snikrot

I don't think this has much chance to be honest just not enough punch for the speed I get but I thought it might be an interesting way to fight the necrons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
1500 Pts - Ork Armored Fist

HQ: Big Mek (1#, 85 pts)
1 Big Mek, 85 pts (Kustom Force Field)

HQ: Mega-armoured Warboss (1#, 130 pts)
1 Mega-armoured Warboss, 130 pts (Attack Squig; Bosspole; Cybork Body)

Troops: Meganobz (5#, 230 pts)
4 Meganobz, 230 pts (Count as Troop Troops; Shoota/Skorcha Kombi-weapon x2)
1 Trukk (Armour Plates; Boarding Plank; Red Paint Job; Reinforced Ram)

Elite: Meganobz (5#, 230 pts)
4 Meganobz, 230 pts (Shoota/Skorcha Kombi-weapon x2)
1 Trukk (Armour Plates; Boarding Plank; Red Paint Job; Reinforced Ram)

Heavy Support: Battlewagon (1#, 140 pts)
1 Battlewagon, 140 pts (Armour Plates; Boarding Plank; Deff Rolla; Red Paint Job; Kannon)

Troops: Boyz (19#, 154 pts)
18 Boyz, 154 pts
1 Boyz Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)

Heavy Support: Battlewagon (1#, 140 pts)
1 Battlewagon, 140 pts (Armour Plates; Boarding Plank; Deff Rolla; Red Paint Job; Kannon)

Troops: Boyz (19#, 154 pts)
18 Boyz, 154 pts
1 Boyz Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)

Fast Attack: Deffkoptas (1#, 70 pts)
1 Deffkoptas, 70 pts (Twin Linked Rokkit Launcha x1; Buzzsaw x1)

Elite: Kommandos (6#, 165 pts)
5 Kommandos, 165 pts (Burna x2)
1 Boss Snikrot

After reviewing the possibilities, I think that the best chance I have to fight the necrons involves using as little foot models on foot till needed, namely when the scarabs eat my wagons + trukks. But once I am there I can stop him very easily in close combat with this list as i anticipate very few casualties if I play smart

The idea is to either have the warboss tag along with the 5 meganobs in one of their trukks to draw fire, or tag him along with Snikrot ol' ghazzy way :p. The deff kopta is really there to just deal with anything worrisome like tomb sypders if he brings them or just wreck a few transports as i know they are stupidly useful for the cron.

The wagons are meant to be delivery systems for the boys though i doubt that will the way i plan knowing necrons. Obviously the Big Mek will be placed in 1 of the battlewagons to extend his kff range.

The problem i see with this list it it won't leave me alot of room for mistakes... namely is a c'tan shows up i might be in for a butt pounding in CC lol. But i will have to tie the unit up if I can... hey who knows maybe they will stomp it flat with only 19 boyz weirder things have happened :p


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The last list is my traditional list, It's a pretty simple kan wall i enjoy alot I think it would work decently enough.... but i feel like i might run into problems if I run it this way against necron *shrug* just those "fighting new dex gitters" ya know? The list is effective against most armies and i love running it as it gives me a deep sense of stompy and killy, really my main concern is necron's ability to screw with vehicles... I should probably trust my kff a bit more and i know grotzookas can make short work of scarabs if i am clever about it. But what I won't want to see if that Dangerous terrian BS the necron's have with this list. I already hate the night spinner i don't want more of it :p

1 Big Mek, 90 pts ('Eavy Armour; Kustom Force Field)

5 Lootas, 75 pts

6 Lootas, 90 pts

29 Boyz, 220 pts (Shootas)
1 Boyz Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)

29 Boyz, 220 pts (Shootas)
1 Boyz Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)

29 Boyz, 220 pts (Shootas)
1 Boyz Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)

1 Deffkoptas, 70 pts (Twin Linked Rokkit Launcha x1; Buzzsaw x1)

3 Killer Kans, 135 pts (Grotzooka x3)

3 Killer Kans, 135 pts (Grotzooka x3)

3 Killer Kans, 135 pts (Grotzooka x3)

Troops: Deff Dread (1#, 110 pts)
1 Deff Dread, 95 pts (Count as Troop Troops; Dreadnought CCW x1; Skorcha x1, armor plates & grot riggers)

Watched a tourney a couple weeks back that had 2 Cron players, and one Ork player. The Ork ended up against both Crons, and if I remember, wiped the floor with them.

It was a near-pure Cyber Grots list, with a Kommando/Snikrot/Ghazzy deathstar. Apparently a swarm of 5++ Grots can swallow multiple Necron units pretty well.

starbomber109 wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Alright, Tactica time boyz! I need some suggestions for a good Cron Cracker list with the orks. I'm thinking foot slogging is the best options maybe some kanwall or perhaps looted wagons?

Kanz could be good, all those walkers will be decent against crons. There's still the fact that boyz will still own Warriors if they get into combat, and entropic strike doesn't really matter to ork boyz (and to some extent, warbosses, unless you like your warboss to wear mega-armor) Try and keep the kanz away from any scarabs, and use Lootas to stun/shake any ghost arks, as you don't want a broadside to hit your lines.

Scarabs will usually keep themselves away from kanz. Have you ever fired a grotzooka at scarabs?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:I'm working on a list but I am having the urge to go REALLY assualty when i know it's a bad idea... things like mega armor nobz killa kannons ect ect ect.

I want to play an all comers list with this enemy but we both are really competitive with one another and I am thinking about just running my normal kan wall and seeing how it does.

Problem is... i know for a fact he is going to take that earth shard thingy? the one where everything is bad terrian no matter what *shrug* no idea what it is called atm.

how spammable is lightning field and mindshackle scarabs? Remind me of LF's effect again pls?

About every HQ model can have mindshackle scarabs, including Necron Lords. Those can be added as squad leaders to other squads.
Lightning field is Harbinger of Storm Cryptecs only, so two per army maximum, usually only one. It blasts assaulting units with d6 S8 AP5 attacks. Again, the cryptec can be added to any unit.
Just make sure to take down those units with boyz, as neither is particularly dangerous to them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
1500 Speed list
I don't think this has much chance to be honest just not enough punch for the speed I get but I thought it might be an interesting way to fight the necrons.

To few models for my taste, no warboss. I usually find five nob bikers to be enough, use the gained points for more warbikers and a warboss. Also kommandoz don't add much to such a mobile army, especially not a minimal unit. If you stick to your theme, it might become quite devastating to necrons, as warbikers strike first, so you can actually use them in close combat without losing points en masse. Keep in mind that all warbikers come with choppa and slugga.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
1500 Pts - Ork Armored Fist

Again, minimal kommando squads won't do much. I'd also field either three or five MANz due to 25% checks and their underwhelming LD7.

If you want to change this list a lot, you'd go for a more traditional bw bash, with burnaz or one unit of regular nobz, dropping the trukks for another battlewagon.

After reviewing the possibilities, I think that the best chance I have to fight the necrons involves using as little foot models on foot till needed, namely when the scarabs eat my wagons + trukks. But once I am there I can stop him very easily in close combat with this list as i anticipate very few casualties if I play smart

The idea is to either have the warboss tag along with the 5 meganobs in one of their trukks to draw fire, or tag him along with Snikrot ol' ghazzy way :p. The deff kopta is really there to just deal with anything worrisome like tomb sypders if he brings them or just wreck a few transports as i know they are stupidly useful for the cron.

The wagons are meant to be delivery systems for the boys though i doubt that will the way i plan knowing necrons. Obviously the Big Mek will be placed in 1 of the battlewagons to extend his kff range.

The problem i see with this list it it won't leave me alot of room for mistakes... namely is a c'tan shows up i might be in for a butt pounding in CC lol. But i will have to tie the unit up if I can... hey who knows maybe they will stomp it flat with only 19 boyz weirder things have happened :p

If anything C'Tan have gotten weaker with the new codex. If you toss a unit of boyz of them, they will be killing 6 point models for most of the game, and if you're lucky the nob might even kill it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The last list is my traditional list, It's a pretty simple kan wall i enjoy alot I think it would work decently enough.... but i feel like i might run into problems if I run it this way against necron *shrug* just those "fighting new dex gitters" ya know? The list is effective against most armies and i love running it as it gives me a deep sense of stompy and killy, really my main concern is necron's ability to screw with vehicles... I should probably trust my kff a bit more and i know grotzookas can make short work of scarabs if i am clever about it. But what I won't want to see if that Dangerous terrian BS the necron's have with this list. I already hate the night spinner i don't want more of it :p

Tremorstaves only make terrain difficult, not dangerous. And it might even scatter off target.

As usual, 4x 20 boyz would be superior to 3x30, due to extra klaw and more flexibility. Otherwise pretty much straight-forward kan wall. You might want a second bigmek though.
If you want to, you could go for a dreadbash, going with 3x20 boyz and a second deff dread.

I always appreciate your input Jidmah you bring good insight into battle plans. Alrighty lets try this out

Cron Cracker list - It will be powerful against the cron but I am worried about that 24 inch death bubble and possibly being too slow with no Deff Koptas to utilize, that being said i think having Lootas might be advantagous as oppose to the deffkopta. I don't even know if this will be at 1500 pts it's just an assumption of course

HQ: Big Mek (1#, 85 pts)
1 Big Mek, 85 pts (Kustom Force Field)

HQ: Big Mek (1#, 85 pts)
1 Big Mek, 85 pts (Kustom Force Field)

Elite: Lootas
6 Lootas, 90 pts

Troops: Boyz
19 Boyz, 165 pts (Shootas)
1 Boyz Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)

Troops: Boyz
19 Boyz, 165 pts (Shootas)
1 Boyz Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)

Troops: Boyz
19 Boyz, 155 pts (Shootas)
1 Boyz Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)

Troops: Boyz
19 Boyz, 165 pts (Shootas)
1 Boyz Nob (Bosspole; Power Klaw)

Heavy Support: Killer Kans
3 Killer Kans, 135 pts (Grotzooka x3)

Heavy Support: Killer Kans
3 Killer Kans, 135 pts (Grotzooka x3)

Heavy Support: Killer Kans
3 Killer Kans, 135 pts (Grotzooka x3)

Troops: Deff Dread
1 Deff Dread, 100 pts (Count as Troop Troops; Armour Plates; Grot Rigger; Skorcha x2)

Troops: Deff Dread
1 Deff Dread, 100 pts (Count as Troop Troops; Armour Plates; Grot Rigger; Skorcha x2)

Seems solid. As said before, if you miss koptaz a lot, drop a unit of boyz for them or buggies. Also be careful with those double-skorchas on your deff dread, you might shoot yourself out of charge range.

One thing to change would be dropping the 6th loota for some rokkits. Necrons have some nice vehicles now, so some extra rokkits never hurt.

Great White wrote:I would say orks would have trouble with any army that can put out large amounts of high strength fire

Tau for instance...

I struggle with DE because of speed...until I frag them out of the sky. Seriously though, venoms are stupid with their stupid number of shots.

I'm thinking of green tiding my necron foe. BW for heavy support and just hammer him with as many boyz as will fit onto the table. As you can see in my signature, I already have squished necrons, but that was the old codex. I'm afraid I've not been able to play the new ones.

CuddlySquig wrote:I struggle with DE because of speed...until I frag them out of the sky. Seriously though, venoms are stupid with their stupid number of shots.

I'm thinking of green tiding my necron foe. BW for heavy support and just hammer him with as many boyz as will fit onto the table. As you can see in my signature, I already have squished necrons, but that was the old codex. I'm afraid I've not been able to play the new ones.

Likewise, Personally I've been thinking of green waving him too just to say "Couldn't kill enough boyz before we assualted could you?"

CuddlySquig wrote:I struggle with DE because of speed...until I frag them out of the sky. Seriously though, venoms are stupid with their stupid number of shots.

I'm thinking of green tiding my necron foe. BW for heavy support and just hammer him with as many boyz as will fit onto the table. As you can see in my signature, I already have squished necrons, but that was the old codex. I'm afraid I've not been able to play the new ones.

Killa Kanz, Looted Wagons, Big Gunz(Kannons) and even Deff Dreads are always superior to battlewagons in a green tide. While battlewagons can have 4 big shootaz and a kannon, the will only be good at killing infantry, something your boyz already do exceptionally good. In addition Big Shoota 3 and 4 are basically sponsons, so usually you'll only be able to shoot one of them.

So rather than being mediocre at something the whole army is already great at, any other heavy support options actually add something to the army.

The Big Shootas are only sponsons if you make them sponsons. That's part of the glory of Ork weaponry, is that it's whatever the heck you mount it as. I've got a battlewagon with a Hull Mounted Killkannon and Sponson Rokkets on a single side, with a Turret mounted Kannon/Big Gun.

Or you could mount every single thing on a sponson. or a Turret. Or a pintle. Seriously, if you managed to mount a killkannon on a pintle on the model, it's pintle mounted by the rules.

Anvildude wrote:The Big Shootas are only sponsons if you make them sponsons. That's part of the glory of Ork weaponry, is that it's whatever the heck you mount it as. I've got a battlewagon with a Hull Mounted Killkannon and Sponson Rokkets on a single side, with a Turret mounted Kannon/Big Gun.

Or you could mount every single thing on a sponson. or a Turret. Or a pintle. Seriously, if you managed to mount a killkannon on a pintle on the model, it's pintle mounted by the rules.

Incorrect, Jidmah is referering to defensive vs offensive weapons (strength 4 and lower are defensive weapons whilestrnegth 5+ are offensive) he is refering to the fact that every vehicle we have with orks is basically "if you move at all you really can only fire one gun 90% of the time.

Ur? He specifically said 'Sponsons' there, I believe in reference to the fact that the battlewagon kit comes with two 'bolt-on' Big Shootas for the back side ports. And of course, everyone has to build things like they are in the kit...


You don't have to move Battlewagons, though. I have one I use as a gunwagon, with a Kannon and 4 Rokkits, that's absolutly devestating to anything in its range. And you can get a Battlewagon with 4 Big Shootas for only 110 points- that's AV14/12/10 firing off 12 Str 5 AP4 36" shots- practically a Land Raider with Hurricane sponsons, only they're Heavy Bolters instead.

Anvildude wrote:The Big Shootas are only sponsons if you make them sponsons. That's part of the glory of Ork weaponry, is that it's whatever the heck you mount it as. I've got a battlewagon with a Hull Mounted Killkannon and Sponson Rokkets on a single side, with a Turret mounted Kannon/Big Gun.

Or you could mount every single thing on a sponson. or a Turret. Or a pintle. Seriously, if you managed to mount a killkannon on a pintle on the model, it's pintle mounted by the rules.

Anvildude wrote:Ur? He specifically said 'Sponsons' there, I believe in reference to the fact that the battlewagon kit comes with two 'bolt-on' Big Shootas for the back side ports. And of course, everyone has to build things like they are in the kit...

Actually, in this case I would call modeling for advantage if you mount those Big Shootas anywhere else but the three turret holes or the two back side ports. So yes, you have to build the model like the kit says. Just like the vendatta kit tells you to put it on the oval flying stand, rather than a clear flying base.
Same for the killkannon, it is supposed to be mounted inside the small turret, mounting it anywhere else to get a better field of view or a lower profile is, again, modeling for advantage. As the killkannon is far from competitive, and you require a second turret to build it, people usually are quite generous with it's placement.
Just because we are orks doesn't mean we can modify vehicles for our own advantage and call it creative modeling. Just like you can't fit the the four rokkits and the kannon on a 12" pole on top of the battlewagon, simply overlooking any cover.

You don't have to move Battlewagons, though. I have one I use as a gunwagon, with a Kannon and 4 Rokkits, that's absolutly devestating to anything in its range. And you can get a Battlewagon with 4 Big Shootas for only 110 points- that's AV14/12/10 firing off 12 Str 5 AP4 36" shots- practically a Land Raider with Hurricane sponsons, only they're Heavy Bolters instead.

Sadly, its range isn't that much, and side armor is guaranteed to be exposed, rear armor will be exposed against any fast army. A killkannon is also ordnance, making any additional weaponry null and void, no matter how far you move.
For the dakka wagon, as said before, it is ok at something that boyz are great at. What's the point of doing something worse than a unit that you are going to field in great numbers anyways? The point of a landraider with hurricane sponsons is 16 men transport capacity, not hurricane bolters - and the battlewagon is actually better at transporting. Big shootas are also AP5 and BS2, resulting in nowhere near the casualties that six twin-linked bolter can cause.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

Anvildude wrote:The Big Shootas are only sponsons if you make them sponsons. That's part of the glory of Ork weaponry, is that it's whatever the heck you mount it as. I've got a battlewagon with a Hull Mounted Killkannon and Sponson Rokkets on a single side, with a Turret mounted Kannon/Big Gun.

Or you could mount every single thing on a sponson. or a Turret. Or a pintle. Seriously, if you managed to mount a killkannon on a pintle on the model, it's pintle mounted by the rules.

Incorrect, Jidmah is referering to defensive vs offensive weapons (strength 4 and lower are defensive weapons whilestrnegth 5+ are offensive) he is refering to the fact that every vehicle we have with orks is basically "if you move at all you really can only fire one gun 90% of the time.

Actually, I was referring to neither. A big shoota wagon can easily sit in a corner due to 36" range, so it doesn't have to move.

My point was, as Anvildude said, that the third and fourth big shoota have to be mounted at the sides of the wagon, so only one of them can usually shoot at the target. GW even says so in their article on how to build the wagon.

Jidmah,
If you build the kit exatly how it comes, then I can sorta agree about modeling for advantage, even though the weapons are never listed as hull, turret, or pintle mounted, and the model did not come out until years after the codex...BUT,,,

There are a LOT of scratchbuilt BWs around from the old days. There are also a TON of old BWs around that are converted from Land Raiders. There are even quite a few BW kits that have been extensively converted to fit with the theme of their army, as can be seen right here on Dakka's painting and modeling section (due to extensive conversion, many original weapon mounts are gone, and new ones built in their place). Heck, there are even the old FW BWs that are all opened topped and about the size of a current trukk (I have a buddy who has 4, that I am trying to buy right now).

If you are using anything but the newest BW model, straight out of the box, then the only limit to weapon placement is your imagination, since none of them are labeled as hull, turret, or pintle mounted.

Part of playing Orks is conversion opportunities. Heck, my rokkit buggies are modeled for DIS-advantage, technically, since I converted Koptas into quads, thus losing the turret/pintle look of the original buggy and only have forward pointing fixed mounts.

When it comes to Orks, most people accept the "rule of cool", and unless you have outrageously long BWs, huge wrecking balls, or foot-long-planks, most people will appreciate your work, rather than trying to claim "modeling for advantage". I mean really..we are talking about 2x BS2 Big Shootas here, If they are rokkits, then you are already converting, since there are none provided in the kit, so put them wherever you want...as long as it looks good!

Hear Hear!

Also, I'm fairly certain that there was, in fact, an FAQ or Errata or something that said, since Orkish weapons didn't have specified mounts, they could be mounted however the heck you want, as long as it's Wysiwyg.

Could've been before the BW kit, but still...

Alerian wrote:Jidmah,
If you build the kit exatly how it comes, then I can sorta agree about modeling for advantage, even though the weapons are never listed as hull, turret, or pintle mounted, and the model did not come out until years after the codex...BUT,,,

There are a LOT of scratchbuilt BWs around from the old days. There are also a TON of old BWs around that are converted from Land Raiders. There are even quite a few BW kits that have been extensively converted to fit with the theme of their army, as can be seen right here on Dakka's painting and modeling section (due to extensive conversion, many original weapon mounts are gone, and new ones built in their place). Heck, there are even the old FW BWs that are all opened topped and about the size of a current trukk (I have a buddy who has 4, that I am trying to buy right now).

If you are using anything but the newest BW model, straight out of the box, then the only limit to weapon placement is your imagination, since none of them are labeled as hull, turret, or pintle mounted.

Part of playing Orks is conversion opportunities. Heck, my rokkit buggies are modeled for DIS-advantage, technically, since I converted Koptas into quads, thus losing the turret/pintle look of the original buggy and only have forward pointing fixed mounts.

When it comes to Orks, most people accept the "rule of cool", and unless you have outrageously long BWs, huge wrecking balls, or foot-long-planks, most people will appreciate your work, rather than trying to claim "modeling for advantage". I mean really..we are talking about 2x BS2 Big Shootas here, If they are rokkits, then you are already converting, since there are none provided in the kit, so put them wherever you want...as long as it looks good!

If you are scratch building anything, you are even allowed by the rules to place the guns wherever you like. As soon as you use the official models, those big shootas go into the sides. Most landraider wagons with four shootas I have seen, have them mounted into the sponsons (or even used the hurricane bolters), for pretty much the same effect.

My point is not saying that you shouldn't convert models. But claiming that the shootas placement would not matter, because orks may rearrange into better positions them under the cover of orky conversions, is hands down, modeling for advantage and only a single step away from loaded dice.

Anvildude wrote:Hear Hear!

Also, I'm fairly certain that there was, in fact, an FAQ or Errata or something that said, since Orkish weapons didn't have specified mounts, they could be mounted however the heck you want, as long as it's Wysiwyg.

Could've been before the BW kit, but still...

You are probably referring to this:

Q. How are the boomgun and other weapons mounted
on a Looted Wagon? (p54)
A. Players are free to mount the weapons on their
converted or scratch-built models however they see fit
(i.e. in a turret, sponson, hull or otherwise), as long as
this is absolutely clear by looking at the model.

If you use the official battlewagon, you are not scratch building.

Jidmah wrote:

Alerian wrote:Jidmah,
If you build the kit exatly how it comes, then I can sorta agree about modeling for advantage, even though the weapons are never listed as hull, turret, or pintle mounted, and the model did not come out until years after the codex...BUT,,,

There are a LOT of scratchbuilt BWs around from the old days. There are also a TON of old BWs around that are converted from Land Raiders. There are even quite a few BW kits that have been extensively converted to fit with the theme of their army, as can be seen right here on Dakka's painting and modeling section (due to extensive conversion, many original weapon mounts are gone, and new ones built in their place). Heck, there are even the old FW BWs that are all opened topped and about the size of a current trukk (I have a buddy who has 4, that I am trying to buy right now).

If you are using anything but the newest BW model, straight out of the box, then the only limit to weapon placement is your imagination, since none of them are labeled as hull, turret, or pintle mounted.

Part of playing Orks is conversion opportunities. Heck, my rokkit buggies are modeled for DIS-advantage, technically, since I converted Koptas into quads, thus losing the turret/pintle look of the original buggy and only have forward pointing fixed mounts.

When it comes to Orks, most people accept the "rule of cool", and unless you have outrageously long BWs, huge wrecking balls, or foot-long-planks, most people will appreciate your work, rather than trying to claim "modeling for advantage". I mean really..we are talking about 2x BS2 Big Shootas here, If they are rokkits, then you are already converting, since there are none provided in the kit, so put them wherever you want...as long as it looks good!

If you are scratch building anything, you are even allowed by the rules to place the guns wherever you like. As soon as you use the official models, those big shootas go into the sides. Most landraider wagons with four shootas I have seen, have them mounted into the sponsons (or even used the hurricane bolters), for pretty much the same effect.

My point is not saying that you shouldn't convert models. But claiming that the shootas placement would not matter, because orks may rearrange into better positions them under the cover of orky conversions, is hands down, modeling for advantage and only a single step away from loaded dice.

Anvildude wrote:Hear Hear!

Also, I'm fairly certain that there was, in fact, an FAQ or Errata or something that said, since Orkish weapons didn't have specified mounts, they could be mounted however the heck you want, as long as it's Wysiwyg.

Could've been before the BW kit, but still...

You are probably referring to this:

Q. How are the boomgun and other weapons mounted
on a Looted Wagon? (p54)
A. Players are free to mount the weapons on their
converted or scratch-built models however they see fit
(i.e. in a turret, sponson, hull or otherwise), as long as
this is absolutely clear by looking at the model.

If you use the official battlewagon, you are not scratch building.

Jidmah,
You made the point yourself n the GW quote....once people take a BW kit, take a hobby knife to it, and start converting it, they have a "converted model"..and may now place the weapons "however they see fit, as long as this is absolutely clear by looking at the model". Heck, just simply changing weapon mounts is, by definition, converting the model.

You don't like it? Blame the author and editors of the Ork codex for not specifying how the weapons are mounted. It is standard for a codex (most at least) to list how a weapon is mounted, whether hull, turret, sponson, etc.; however, the Ork codex makes no such restriction, thus allowing players to convert to their heart's content, as long as everything is clear by looking at the model.

Telling people that it is modeling for advantage (ie:cheating), and "one step away from loaded dice" is unfair and highly insulting to the vast majority of Ork players, since, as you know, most of us have some pretty crazy conversions, many of which start their life as a standard GW model. That is part of the joy of playing Orks - going nuts with "cray-mad max-looking-conversions". If I wanted to use all standard looking modles, I would play my IG, DA, or Eldar.

You are misunderstanding me.

If you convert your model for the sole purpose of gaining an advantage, you are cheater and deserve to be called one.

If you convert your model for any other purpose, you are building a cool model for the sake of being orky and deserve admiration for it.

Anvildude explicitly suggested converting a battlewagon for the sole purpose of gaining a better field of vision for those big shootas. This has nothing at all to do with looks or the joy of modeling.

Mind you, many tournaments will ban non-GW battlewagons (which aren't that new at all anymore) that are significantly different. The FAQ is explicitly directed at looted wagons, because they are meant to be conversions or scratch bulds. A shame they got such bad rules.

Also, close to no codex ever mentions how any weapons are mounted. Still, no IG player would ever think of putting a heavy bolter/flamer/multi laser anywhere else but on the hull mounting in front. Why? Because the model makes it dead obvious where it belongs.