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Sup ya gitz! I have been thinking that it wouldn't hurt to hear tactics against armies I only rarely face as well as hear other ork players opinions on "who our hard counter armies are". I hear this often around my gaming store as being things like Nids, Dark Eldar and Grey Knights but I wanted to hear other thoughts and opinions on who you think we as an army struggle to defeat in 40k. I am curious to hear counters to those armies as well as highlights or worrisome things. In other words I am trying to engage in an all out ego stroking contest between orks and the rest of 40k but actually learn something from it. I'll go ahead and start.

Personally I think Tyranids have proven themselves to be one of the strongest counters to my army out there. I Loath seeing Trygons with Sycthing talons and various other upgrades crash into my lines cut open the ork boyz unit and survive doing more wounds than we did and flooding fearless wounds on us as we lose droves of boys to deal with them. I Find that when I as a foot slogger start to get outnumbered by Terrvogons butt babies that the battle is starting to get really intense. I find almost all my normal gambits WILL work but normally not nearly to the effect as it does with some other armies like marines ect. I normally try to avoid contact with the Nids in 40k till I have first cut them cut with gunfire. For example, I might spam a loota squad then shoota squad at a trygon prior to charging in and finishing with lucky wounds and PK wounds.

feel free to post about any army but provide a problem about them and the way you deal with it right now.

there's a guy that runs 2 tervigons at my club. i find the best tactic is to get my squad (9nobz Big choppas,pks, 'eavy armor. 1 warboss cybork, pk, twin linked shoota) in a trukk and manuver behind cover while sticking close.

meanwhile i boost 3 deffkoptas straight at them as a diversion (with a 3+ invulnerable save for turboing >) and the next turn i shoot like mad with koptas, unload my trukk and wreck the tervigons as fast as possible.

from there on he only has biovores and termagaunts left.

I would say orks would have trouble with any army that can put out large amounts of high strength fire

Great White wrote:I would say orks would have trouble with any army that can put out large amounts of high strength fire

definately would not say that.

well

i would.

but i think ork's main problem is the fact that they arent as viscious as everyone else until we're in your face. up our shootinf skill by one at least. comeon

Nids are easy to beat-if you list tailor. I don't really like doing that, but basically if you stick 10 tank bustas ina battlewagon, and 15 burnas in two battlewagons, then bring Kans and grotzookas you win. most people don't do that though so those damn gaunts +venom+Charge+fleet is just annoying.

besides list tailoring, the thing I have found to be true with gaunts is that you have to screen their charge(grots+RH works well) And you want to try to multi assault as much as possible-Anything to keep him from getting furious charge. The problem you face with gaunts is that when they get furious charge they are attacking with a higher str than the boyz and this allows them to reroll all their poison attacks. Generally a group of 20 gaunts w venom and adrenaline will do about 15-20 wounds to a unit of boyz-before you even get a single attack.

You have to force him to charge the gretchin or else get shot for another round. Nids are the only army that are more eager to close the gap than orks. This is generally a very unatural thing for orks. You can't hide in cover either because of their fleet.

TLDR Just build a wall of gretchin or tailor a list with a bunch of templates vs nids.

TheHundredth wrote:

Great White wrote:I would say orks would have trouble with any army that can put out large amounts of high strength fire

definately would not say that.

well

i would.

but i think ork's main problem is the fact that they arent as viscious as everyone else until we're in your face. up our shootinf skill by one at least. comeon

If they had BS 3 they would be ridiculous broken. As it is, they can use sheer dakka to outshoot most enemies, and with bs3, they would be actually unstoppable.

Also, high strength fire isn't necessarily capable of stopping them, as i know my tau, despite having by FAR the most str 5 ap 5 fire in the game, have trouble with them.

TheHundredth wrote:

Great White wrote:I would say orks would have trouble with any army that can put out large amounts of high strength fire

definately would not say that.

well

i would.

but i think ork's main problem is the fact that they arent as viscious as everyone else until we're in your face. up our shootinf skill by one at least. comeon

The days of BS3 orks just were not orky. Orks can hold their own in a shoot out if want to play that way.

Things I struggle with:
Crowe lists.
Certain builds of BA lists, though the line between equal footing and not tends to be subtle.
True landraider spam. A few landraiders is not so bad as you have things you can destroy.
Some elder and dark elder lists have confused me, I think my confusion is explained by there being a fine line between DE winning and losing any given battle.

I've never had trouble with nids with my orks. Nobs w/ pk eat warriors for breakfast and the boyz can wipe almost anything out with sheer numbers. The monsterous creatures are tough, but power klaws can kill them.
Then again, the tyranid player I usually play isn't the most competative/skilled player ever.

What I think is BS is that Dark Eldar and Grey Knights seems to be able to shoot Orky volumes of fire, with fewer models, at higher Ballistic Skill, while still being murder in CC.

That's just not kosher.

I have yet to play GK, but I have seen what a draigo wing can do to the boyz. Granted I thought the Ork player was not very good and did alot of dumb things but still the draigo wing wiped two 30 packs of boyz with almost no effort. Nids with venom and adrenaline and gaunt spam are a very bad thign for orks when played by an experience player that uses cover and fleet correctly. he will almost always get the charge off on you, and you can pretty much count whatever he charges as being dead. The only real counter I have personally come up with is to put grots up front to eat the charge. if you charge the gaunts they die to boyz easily, but with a skilled player he will hide in terrain etc then he basically has a 18" charge range EVERY turn of the game.

DE are frustrating, It always comes down to the wire. It just seems like you almost have to get lucky to beat them. But I don't really see any problems either, I think if your list is built right then DE are a 50/50 chance. If you try to do something obvious against DE they will pick you apart.

Generally speaking DE is not the army that new players play so you are more often than not going to be playing someone with experience and they essentially know how orks work already. basically against DE just shoot their vehicles until it explodes or is no longer a threat. Elves on the ground are not a worry, however an immobilized skimmer that still has weapons is still a very big threat, you have got to shoot the skimmer until it is "dead". Priority target the skimmers, not the elves, you can kill those guys in one round, the skimmers are what win games for DE, wether they can move or not.

What always bugs me is that nobody seems to even consider taking Stikk Bombs on their boyz. They you have no issue assaulting into cover!

Only against Necrons or other orks is it worth it. Stikkbombs only put you at your normal initiative. Why would you even consider buying them unless you knew you were playing necrons or orks? imo Stik bomb chukka nota bad selection if you are playing a tourney or something, but 20/30 extra points on your boyz mob?

Lootas+Shoota Boy squads = Dead Nids

It really is that simple. Lootas kill anything big at long range. Shoota Boys with hidden PK Nob allow you to shoot the choppy stuff and chop the shooty stuff. These Units give you a core to hadnle anything Nids have in their Dex. Plus, they are units that are found in most solid Ork lists, so you don't ned to tailor (which I despise).

After Lootas and Boys, just figure out your playstyle. You can either mount the boys in wagons, thus opening up the idea of burna boys as well, or you can walk them behind a Kanwall, bringing even more shooty and choppy pain to the list.

Grots R OP wrote:I have yet to play GK, but I have seen what a draigo wing can do to the boyz. Granted I thought the Ork player was not very good and did alot of dumb things but still the draigo wing wiped two 30 packs of boyz with almost no effort.

Actually I find paladins hate 30 boy squads. They will kill a good number but the nob ends up instant killing them one by one. Purifiers are a huge issue for the squad which Draigo wing sometimes bring for the ride.

I have found that orks have a hard time against GK Palladin lists when the victory condition is kill points. If it is objective based the game is much easier.

No matter what the victory conditions are, I have had a hard time with a Space Wolves Thunderwolf Cav list that my friend runs:
3 units of Long fangs
2 razorbacks with a Jaws Rune Priest
1 Large Thunderwolf squad with 2 characters all with storm shields. Is there a beneficial USR that this unit didn't get? (ok, maybe hit and run and FNP but c'mon this is cheesy with 4 base attacks and true toughness 5, counts as calvary, rending, and on and on)?

I've tried just about everything against this list and while I've pounded him hard a time or two, if he rolls average he crushes me.

I run (and am usually very successful with):
6 man Nob Biker w/ Warboss
2 BW's with KFF
1 Large Boyz squad on foot
2 Large Loota squads
3 Kans

I'd be interesting in hearing more about strategies for handling DE because I'm likely to face them quite often and a venom spam list (for example) seems almost guaranteed to shoot a green tide/kan wall off the table

A Kvlt Ghost wrote:I'd be interesting in hearing more about strategies for handling DE because I'm likely to face them quite often and a venom spam list (for example) seems almost guaranteed to shoot a green tide/kan wall off the table

Best thing I can tell you about DE in my history with orky tactics is they fear and respect strength 5-7 weaponrythe most, anything else over this is more than likely overkill. So that means our Lootas in small enough teams to avoid concentrated enemy fire are perfect against transports and anything with speed. I had 30 boyz defend a team of 10 lootas fighting the DE once he was so mad knowing if he charged my lootas he would lose any squad he had. In CC with DE you must be careful, you can't win every fist fight like you would against marines or the like you need to get more clever. This is what taught me about softening up the enemy with some good gun fire, another weapon the DE truely fear are kannons and Grootzookas.

Don't try and be the traditional Run at them and clobber. You need to eliminate their transports and then have the power to deny them easy CC wipes so they are countered on obtaining pain tokens easily. When you do get into fights make sure they are in your favor make sure to ask who has grenades and who doesn't if your enemy is like most typical players they will not have taken them in order to get "More useful points" elsewhere. Much like the Tyranids you need to make sure to use the terrain to you advantage because if ORKS GO FIRST the DE cannot win that battle in CC really regardless of circumstance.

I'd avoid things like Meganobz, Warbosses, and Nobz units unless you are sure the enemy is light on power weapons but most are running poisoned power weapons so ... yeah. Their HQ's are potent offering either free pain tokens or some sort of ridiculous invulerable saves. Normally the HQ in a DE list is there to be meek and offer a general bonus to the army rather than anything else keep in mind that is ... about normal.

So yeah my process is shoot down speed, make em huff it and succumb to shooting. Trying and make them assault through terrain as often as possible and don't be eager to assualt them till at leas 60% strength to make up the difference between their inits.

Any other questions?

Also, try Templates. One mob of 6 Meganobz with some Skorchas, in a Trukk, would be a rather nice unit if only to charge upfield and multi-assault the gak out of their transports- there's usually so many you'll be able to get at least two or three. Then, the Meganobz actually will have decent survivability, especially against Warriors (I believe- its Wytches you need to watch out for)

Also, KFFs are awesome, especially when used in conjunction with vehicles. The Dark Eldar have their 5++ on their vehicles, well, I have a 4++! Battlewagons, or Looted Wagons, since their Lance weapons don't know the difference between AV14 and 12. Mayhaps try Wagons with as may Big Shootas as you can- One Battlewagon can get 12 S5 36" shots for 20 points, good against both their skimmers and their infantry.

One other tactic is the classic Deathroller Rush, with a little change. Grabbin' Klaws and Wrekkin' Balls (along with a classic Boarding Plank/PK if you can). Grabbin' Klaws severely limit their maneuverability, since you can stop them moving on either a 2+ or 4+, don't remember. And they don't get their Skimmer dodge against Wrekkin' Balls (Str 9, hits on 4+ regardless) or Boarding Planks.

Also, don't discount 'ard case. Your Wagons in this instance are going to be little bunkers of unkillability spitting out Dakka, so you don't want to move them regularly, and can thus disembark and assault same turn.

MFletch wrote:

Grots R OP wrote:I have yet to play GK, but I have seen what a draigo wing can do to the boyz. Granted I thought the Ork player was not very good and did alot of dumb things but still the draigo wing wiped two 30 packs of boyz with almost no effort.

Actually I find paladins hate 30 boy squads. They will kill a good number but the nob ends up instant killing them one by one. Purifiers are a huge issue for the squad which Draigo wing sometimes bring for the ride.

Force swords, Draigo's T5 and a random warding staff tossed in will pretty much make killing more than one paladin per mob reliable on dice luck. The only way to handle paladins is shooting the gak out of them.

I play Kan Wall @ 1250 - 1750 points.
IG has a lot of Str 8 large blasts that can make life very bad if I can not roll 4+

DE is the reason I stopped playing BW lists.

Grey Knights is the reason I stopped using dedicated Nob mobs. The ability for most of their army to ID the Nobz make it no longer practical.

Now it's 100% Kan Wall with Deff Koptas, Lootas, Snik, and 60 boyz with rokkits.

Other than those 2 armies I also have trouble with Fateweaver. I end up killing him every game but it is very expensive. As long as the opponent doesn't have Toughness 7 or higher, I do pretty well. C'Tan Shards worry me now.

AllYourBase wrote:I play Kan Wall @ 1250 - 1750 points.
IG has a lot of Str 8 large blasts that can make life very bad if I can not roll 4+

Surprisingly, you can mitigate that alot by using the full 2 inch coherency. I made a tool for that very reason. Its a 2 inch wide, on one end, 1 inch on the other, 6 inch long ruler basically. Whenever Im playing against a template heavy army, I use it. It also makes moving hordes of boyz ALOT easier/faster. Youd be surprised how few hits youll take when they are fully spread out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And thats one of the few times, Id consider suicide koptas. Also taking Snik and crew, that way you can get to those pie plate shooters ASAP

PipeAlley wrote:DE is the reason I stopped playing BW lists.

Grey Knights is the reason I stopped using dedicated Nob mobs. The ability for most of their army to ID the Nobz make it no longer practical.

Now it's 100% Kan Wall with Deff Koptas, Lootas, Snik, and 60 boyz with rokkits.

Other than those 2 armies I also have trouble with Fateweaver. I end up killing him every game but it is very expensive. As long as the opponent doesn't have Toughness 7 or higher, I do pretty well. C'Tan Shards worry me now.

DE are a tough cookie, especially if they get first turn. If they don't you should be able to disable enough of those lances with lootaz, buggies and buzz koptaz to make sure you have at least two BW reach their goal. If they get first, all you can do is try to hide your battlewagons or refuse flank them to minimize damage.

Only GK Terminators and Paladins are a real danger to Nobz mounted in a battlewagon. Power-Armored GK lack the amount of NFW attacks to actually win combat against them. But you aren't exactly tossing Nobz at other terminators either.
For Nob bikers I agree, psyflemen pretty much ruin their day.

Of course, the Kan wall is a great army, but in my opinion it lacks options on the battlefield. That's purely a matter of taste though, as it doesn't impact the ability to win a game. Though, at over 1750 point, the power of the kan wall starts to fall apart as your opponent can field the firepower to handle it while you don't get as much increase in strength for you additional points.

As an ork player( not that long, abou 20+ games now)

I struggle against DE, but i have seen some tips here i will try out.

I play against SM and Tau a lot. Screw them in CC, i beat their butts! The shooting on the other hand mweh, hate them. Especialy devastators. But! I have numbers, i use the 2' coherancy to minimize krak dmg and flamer dmg. Which works reeeealy well. Instead of 5 or 6 boys, its 2-4 boyz. Little diferrence that realy counts up towards the end game.

My boomgun seems to do miracles against marines and tau, somehow 2/3 rolls its dead on.

I do struggle with the quickness of the DE, the long dead killy rangeof Tau, i mean transports blow up too far from the enemy. And against SM i struggle with armor value 14 on land raider.

But as always, the best ork tactic, send in more boyz ya gitz! Breaks down tau's long range, just too many targets, same goes for SM, too many targets, and even weaker squads of boyz generate enough attacks to stomp dem umies good. Against DE i wait behind a wall of armor. Dakka them to smithereens, and when i get the initiative i charge their weakened squads.

But thats all i know right now, so,

more tips are more then welcome!

Downing the DE flyers wasn't so bad, the problem around here is all they ever contained was min squads, not worth sending BW's after. It was overkill if I ever got to his downed units.

As for GK in this neck of here woods, it is almost all Termies and Palies, plenty of attacks at I6 to wipe out any Nobz.

I like Kan wall because it pretty much nullifies the Lance portion of those weapons. And of course, I love taunting the opponent after his round of shooting by adding the points costs of my dead Orks: "That was great! You just killed 70 points!" with their entire shooty 2000 point army.

I'm pretty happy with the Kan list + Snik + Deffkoptas. TBH I miss my Biker Boyz every time I see them in the box collecting dust. Why did they take away fearless?!?!

Who cares about fearless?
I'd be happy to field them in any army if their points were at least somewhat comparable to trukk boyz, rather than more than twice their cost. 17 points a bike rather than 25 is all I ask for.

17 points! Why don't you ask for the moon while you're at it?

They'd be the most cost effective shooty unit in the game at 17

They are still 5 points cheaper than they used to be. If they were still fearless we wouldn't have to worry about being shot of the board.

Hell, now I have to go make another bike list just for fun.

I'd argue that shoota boyz still beat them at point efficiency when it comes to shooting, even if you have to buy them a battlewagon, as do lootaz and about the entire imperial guard. Not to mention stuff like warwalkers, long fangs or purifiers - and none of those simply turn into ashes when hit by a heavy flamer.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: I wanted to hear other thoughts and opinions on who you think we as an army struggle to defeat in 40k. I am curious to hear counters to those armies as well as highlights or worrisome things. In other words I am trying to engage in an all out ego stroking contest between orks and the rest of 40k but actually learn something from it.

Does exotic, Imperial Armory lists count? Because you Orks love to struggle against my Elysian drop list no matter what you guys throw at me...

Jidmah wrote:I'd argue that shoota boyz still beat them at point efficiency when it comes to shooting, even if you have to buy them a battlewagon, as do lootaz and about the entire imperial guard. Not to mention stuff like warwalkers, long fangs or purifiers - and none of those simply turn into ashes when hit by a heavy flamer.

For straight up shooting i'd agree Shootas are more efficient, however the bikes have higher strength shots, T5, 4+ armor And cover, better movement, and an extra attack. Bike mobs of 3 or 4 with PK Nob have worked well for me, I just wish they were still fearless.

Plus there's the bonus that most players never use them and thus a minor possible surprise factor.