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I said this where, exactly? Was that before, or after I mentioned that my 4x Rokkits were Sponson mounted on the same side?

Eh, whatever.

I'm pretty sure, actually, that the Marine (and most Imperium) codexes say as much. In vehicle descriptions and such, there's bits like "Comes with 2 sponson mounted Hurricane Bolters" and "Can buy 1 pintle mounted Storm Bolter" and stuff like that.

Heh, I couldn't resist.

Anvildude wrote:I said this where, exactly? Was that before, or after I mentioned that my 4x Rokkits were Sponson mounted on the same side?

Eh, whatever.

Right here:

Anvildude wrote:The Big Shootas are only sponsons if you make them sponsons. That's part of the glory of Ork weaponry, is that it's whatever the heck you mount it as. I've got a battlewagon with a Hull Mounted Killkannon and Sponson Rokkets on a single side, with a Turret mounted Kannon/Big Gun.

Or you could mount every single thing on a sponson. or a Turret. Or a pintle. Seriously, if you managed to mount a killkannon on a pintle on the model, it's pintle mounted by the rules.

You explicitly said that the drawback of the actual model can be circumvented by placing the shootas elsewhere.

I'm pretty sure, actually, that the Marine (and most Imperium) codexes say as much. In vehicle descriptions and such, there's bits like "Comes with 2 sponson mounted Hurricane Bolters" and "Can buy 1 pintle mounted Storm Bolter" and stuff like that.

Ok, flipping through codex collection for weapon mounts:
Orks - None
Eldar - None
Black Templar - Yes, but missing on Rhino and Land Speeder
Imperial Guard - None, except LR and Vendetta sponsons and pintle-mounted storm bolter/stubber upgrade
Dark Eldar - None
Blood Angels - None, except Storm Raven, Predator and Baal Predator sponsons
Space Marines - None, except Predator sponsons
Space Wolves - None, except Predator sponsons
Tyranids - Funnily enough, I actually started flipping through the book, looking for vehicles
Grey Knights - None, except Storm Raven sponsons
Chaos Daemons - Yes for the Maw Cannon, no for the Harverster Cannon.
Chaos Space Maries - Yes, except for Defiler
Necrons - None
Dark Angels - None, except pintle-mounted storm bolter upgrade
Tau - Yes, but missing on Devilfish
Sisters of Battle - Don't have that one.

So, except for the occasional sponsons or pintle-mounted defensive weapon upgrade, most codices do not provide weapon mounting at all. Sponsons are probably only mentioned to emphasize that you are buying a pair.
Only four old codices provide weapon mountings, and all of them are missing the mounting for at least one vehicle-mounted weapon.

So once the Black Templar codex is replaced, nothing prevents marine players from turret-mounting demolisher cannons by your interpretation.

Hmm.

And there's nothing in the 'fluff' sections of the entries? Like: "Crusader Land Raiders, in addition to their hull-mounted Bolters, replace their sponsons with Flamestorm cannons"?

(And I have a very hazy idea of Imperial wargear, so excuse me if this sentence is completely incorrect.)

Descriptions like that is more what I was talking about- not where you actually buy the unit, but where it talks about what make a Crusader pattern different from a Godhammer pattern, and such.

Nah, it usually reads something along the lines "Wargear: Twin-linked assault cannon, Two Flamestorm cannons, etc." or similar. No further explanation given. You can guess from the fluff (and obviously, the picture) that flamestorm- and lascannons are sponson mounted on a Godhammer/Redeemer, but nothing set in stone. The cusader's hurricane bolters are only described as sponsons in the fluff of the redeemer, not in its own.

Anyways, you can hardly argue you are allowed to alter the explicit placement of guns provided with the model, while prohibiting other players from modifying their vehicles because of fluff and pictures - The battlewagon drawings do show the official model, so why is a space marine player forced to place his guns according to the manual, while an ork player can do whatever he likes?
Even space marines modify their vehicles, that's how Landraider crusaders came to be in the first place.

For the sake of fairness and sportsmanship you should not stick your weapons in more advantageous positions than the official model has.

A few more weapons I just stumbled across while searching for other stuff:
- the autocannon entry says it's turret-mounted for predator destructors (only checked C:SM and BA)
- the killkannon must be turret-mounted as per it's own entry on the battlewagon page.

Hmm HMM!

Still, it's not like an Ork really gains much of an advantage with guns in places like that, aside from focus fire- and with BS 2, and nothing twin-linked (on a Battlewagon, at least) putting the two 'back' Big Shootas further up/on turrets/pintles wouldn't really matter too much.

In all, I'm more for mounting stuff that way to create a bristling fortress of death for fluff reasons than I am for game purposes. Like I said, I mounted my own killkannon in a less advantageous position!

Also, aren't there Marine players out there who mount their Hurrican bolters and Las sponsons in the front door slot of their Land Raiders? Or Las/Plas with the Plas next to the Las on the turrets?

Anvildude wrote:Watched a tourney a couple weeks back that had 2 Cron players, and one Ork player. The Ork ended up against both Crons, and if I remember, wiped the floor with them.

It was a near-pure Cyber Grots list, with a Kommando/Snikrot/Ghazzy deathstar. Apparently a swarm of 5++ Grots can swallow multiple Necron units pretty well.

I still want to hear more about this cyber grot list. Do you know what the the actual FOC looked like? Was it ALL cyber grots and then the snikrot deathstar and nothing else?

Anyways, back to the OP.

I find it ironic that you say Nids are your most feared opponents. My Orks regularily walk the table with nid lists and my Nids (I play both, I know both well) have a heck of a time with Orks. I think my bugs could beat them if I list tailored and he didn't, and I was lucky and/or a much better tactician/dice roller.

Weaknesses: Nids' monsters have no invul save, way too expensive, and get beaten up badly by nobs with claws hiding in squads. Rokkits suck too, and only the Carnifex (who sucks) can instakill anything powerful, like a nob or meganob. Nid shooting is too short of range to be effective, and ork troops are just plain superior in combat.

Earlier I was thinking or theroy hammering, and I'm curious, how much dakka can YOU cram into an ork list? It obviously needs at least one SAG, but I'm not sure what other guns to go for. I did decide that, in terms of amount of firepower for the points, Warbuggies give you more because they still give you a linked rokkit, but you can get more of them for less points than an equal amount of deffkoptas.

Ork Boyz are basically only good at shooting infantry, so I figure the best bet is to arm them with shootas (and big shootas) and have them shoot from ontop of objectives. Meanwhile, the 45 lootas (because comeon, you pack gunz into an ork army, you need to max out on lootas) will focus on keeping the enemy pinned down. After this, heavy support must be filled out with something, but what? I could use Kannons, or Killa Kanz, and I'm not sure what are better. Kannons have more down range firepower, but KMB Kanz can deal with heavily armored targets, though they can't deal with paladins. The reason is BS 3. 3 kanz shoot at paladins, about 2 wounds, drago eats one, and a paladin might die. So after all three squads fire, 3 paladins are dead at best. Paladins shoot back with psycannons, wreck a kan squad.

Anyways, the sample list looks something like this

(HQ)
Big Mek(Burna;KFF;Armor;Cybork body) 120 Points
Big Mek(Shokk Attack Gun; Bosspole) 100 Points

Elites
45 Lootas 675 points

Troops
30 boyz mob (3x big shootas)190 points
30 boyz mob (3x big shootas, Nob, BP/PK/armor) 235 points
30 boyz mob (3x Big shootas, nob, bp) 205 points
12 boyz mob (pk/bp nob, and a trukk, ard boyz) 165 points

Fast
9x Buggies 315 points

Heavy
9x KMB Kanz 495 points

TOTAL 2500 points. it has a lotta dakka, the plan is for the mek to cover all the vehicles early on, while he walks up the field, because all those rokkits and megablastas have a fairly short range. The two boyz squads hang out on objectives, while the ard boyz ZOOM off to kill an enemy support unit. throw them out from behind a killa kan at maximum speed (and pray the trukk doesn't kareen off the table)

So, what do you think? not 'enuf dakka'?

I do like me some KMB Kanz. That sounds like a briliantly shooty list, starbomber. Why not try it out some time?

I keep hearing about the KMB on the kans. For an extra 5 points, it seems to have some merit if the meta is calling for it.

If you want just dakka theme and not worrying too much about competitiveness, you can field 3 wagons with 4 rokkits and a kannon on each one, and load 15 lootas into the back of each.

Bubblewrap them with shoota boyz and have a KFF mek nearby them all.

In case you tell me how weak the army is, I know. I'd never lose to that list. It'd just be funny to see the look on my opponent's face when I plop that down on the table.

Or, if you absolutely need a ridiculous number of Str. 8 shots, take Tankbustas instead of Lootas. Anyone want 20 Str8 AP3 24" shots from a single vehicle?

Anvildude wrote:Or, if you absolutely need a ridiculous number of Str. 8 shots, take Tankbustas instead of Lootas. Anyone want 20 Str8 AP3 24" shots from a single vehicle?

Only you can't get 20. Max number of tankbustas is 15, and you can only mount 4 rokkits on the wagon.

And yeah, it seems cool in theory, if I can build the kanz in time I might try it or something like it for 'ard boyz.

Forgot the Kannon. It can fire either Frag or Krak shells.

Oh yeah, the kannon. You know, I used to use one of those on my wagons, since it gives you a defensive weapon

Yes, it is good like that.

15 tankbustas, 4 rokkits, and 1 kannon makes 20 rokkits (sorta). But 15 lootas can possibly get 45 shots.

Still. 20 Str. 8 shots gives an average of ~7 hits, most of which will wound- meaning you can take out most of a Marine squad. Or, with 7 hits, and Str. 8, you're getting 1 or 2 glances even on AV14. That's pure average (and if you have a Boarding Plank, you could maybe slap a Tankbusta Bomb on a vehicle you're close enough to?) and of course, there's always the chance you could glance even a Land Raider to death, or wipe large Marine squads.

bucheonman wrote:I keep hearing about the KMB on the kans. For an extra 5 points, it seems to have some merit if the meta is calling for it.

If you want just dakka theme and not worrying too much about competitiveness, you can field 3 wagons with 4 rokkits and a kannon on each one, and load 15 lootas into the back of each.

Bubblewrap them with shoota boyz and have a KFF mek nearby them all.

In case you tell me how weak the army is, I know. I'd never lose to that list. It'd just be funny to see the look on my opponent's face when I plop that down on the table.

You opponent's face will probably be a grin due to you combining two dangerous units into one terrible one.

A battlewagon with rokkits has to move somewhere due to limited range, whenever it moves it will not only fire just one rokkit, but also prevent all lootaz from shooting. In addition, a single shaken result will disable 400 points of shooting. Three shaken results will disable almost your entire army. Putting lootaz in terrain is always superior to putting them into a vehicle.

The list itself is not weak at all, but your setup is making it weak.

Anvildude wrote:Still. 20 Str. 8 shots gives an average of ~7 hits, most of which will wound- meaning you can take out most of a Marine squad. Or, with 7 hits, and Str. 8, you're getting 1 or 2 glances even on AV14. That's pure average (and if you have a Boarding Plank, you could maybe slap a Tankbusta Bomb on a vehicle you're close enough to?) and of course, there's always the chance you could glance even a Land Raider to death, or wipe large Marine squads.

There is close to no point in glancing any AV14 vehicle, as none can be glanced to death. Even if the opponent bought no additional weapons, you need at least 5 weapon destroyed/immobilized to stop a land raider, a monolith can never be glanced to death. You are also much better off in trading three rokkits launchers against PK and two tank hammers, just jump out and smash the thing to bits, rather than rely on a single tank busta bomb.

Would have to agree that lootas in a battlewagon is a terrible idea. Why on earth would you do that? just to protect them? Just drop them in cover or wrap 9 gretchin around them -voila you now have a 4+ cover save anywhere on the board.

Tank bustas can not pick their target, if I understand glory hogs correctly, they MUST fire at any vehicle in LOS. Even if it is out of range. This will prevent them from shooting at Meq's (unfortunately) almost all of the time. Tank bustas are right below looted wagons and right above flash gitz on my "this unit sucks" list.

Grots R OP wrote:

Tank bustas can not pick their target, if I understand glory hogs correctly, they MUST fire at any vehicle in LOS. Even if it is out of range. This will prevent them from shooting at Meq's (unfortunately) almost all of the time. Tank bustas are right below looted wagons and right above flash gitz on my "this unit sucks" list.

It isn't really that bad. Glory Hogs says that if Tankbustas can see a vehicle, they must shoot at a vehicle.

That doesn't restrict them from shooting at ANY vehicle, though it does stop them from dropping a load of hurt on MEQs, but you do still get to pick your target. Put them in a BW and drive them up the middle; you WILL have a vehicular target within 24", usually more than one. And they can use a tankhammer or PK from a Boarding Plank without any problem.

Also, it's been FAQ'd that if the Bustas are in a vehicle, they don't 'suffer' from Glory Hogs.

The interesting thing about that rule is that it's basically only ensuring that the unit is used for what it was meant for- destroying vehicles. And when it comes to anything less than AV14 all-around, they will be able to shoot the heck out of it, with a 30" shooting threat range (remember, assault weapons). Absolutely any vehicle will die to an assault, though, with at least a single Tankhammer. I usually just have the Tankhammer boy use the Bomb Squigs when they're not in charge range.

Which FAQ is that in? (and page ref please) I can't find it in GW or INAT...

I don't like tankbustas. I rely on PKs to bust vehicles since ork anti-vehicle guns are pretty much rubbish in my experience.

Also, for green tides, should I take shootas or sluggas against necrons?

Green tides should uses shootas against anything. I guess the second row could be sluggas, as they won't be in reach to shoot anyways, but shootas compensate for your lack of mobility (24" threat range, as opposed to 12" from sluggas).