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Yeah, I was just playing off what he said, and Str8 can handle even AV14 easily enough

GK can't outshoot guard. lol Not only can IG have more single shot they have tons of templates too.. Not even a contest and even the mentioned MoT and hh isnt reliable because you still have to get to them. lol One bad round of rolling and IG will blow you off the map.

Nobody is saying GK is better then IG, just that they do have good shooting

IG are the best at shooting bye far Leman russ's can poor out shot after shot deathstrike and manticores can destroy tanks, a sqaud of 30 guys can pump out 90 shots, HWT for support , valkryies / vendettas can wreck anything and everything. yes tau have heavy stuff but a imited range of the stuff especialy as you can take 9 vendettas and 9 leman russ exectutioners. No army can stand up to that.
(sorry for any spelling mistakes)

TheAngrySquig wrote:Grey Knights are good because of psybolt, which lets you handle AV14 with some reliabiltity


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What I find really strange is the Daemons getting votes seeing as most units have 0 shooting whatsoever

In reguards to the psybolt, on the best platform for GK shooting ( the TL AC Ven Dread) it only goes up to str 8. You'd need 6's to glance. GK's for the most part unless you are doing a henchmen list, lack meltas and don't really have alot of las cannons unless you have like some crazy monkey spam army.

I've found GK shooting to be suffering badly vs the new necron AV 13's and occassional 14 contraptions. Curse thee quantum shielding. Psybolts do not work for psycannons if that was something else you were thinking. Rending does work though.

I don't know exactly what you guys mean by reliably but last 3 games I had my dreads shooting at AV 13 spam and could not stop them doing all sorts of nastyness especially with living metal. I think on average, I only glanced things to death by turn 5 or 6 with the auto cannons.

Fluff: Tau

Gameplay: IG/MEQ

Harriticus wrote:Fluff: Tau

Aren't the Guard also most shooty army in fluff to?
Especially when backed by Titans, orbital targeting, air force and long range artillery?

No contest here, I think the IG sweep best shooting in every category. Mech vets, Vendettas, Manticores, LRBTs...

Dark Eldar again. They can be tooled up to outshoot any other army, with the possible exception of a wall of chimeras.

If we include Guard variants, then DKoK, for its cheap artillery, and the availability of cheap artillery in its elite slots.

IG by far. They can probably put out more shots at me then I have models

sudojoe wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Grey Knights are good because of psybolt, which lets you handle AV14 with some reliabiltity


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What I find really strange is the Daemons getting votes seeing as most units have 0 shooting whatsoever

In reguards to the psybolt, on the best platform for GK shooting ( the TL AC Ven Dread) it only goes up to str 8. You'd need 6's to glance. GK's for the most part unless you are doing a henchmen list, lack meltas and don't really have alot of las cannons unless you have like some crazy monkey spam army.

I've found GK shooting to be suffering badly vs the new necron AV 13's and occassional 14 contraptions. Curse thee quantum shielding. Psybolts do not work for psycannons if that was something else you were thinking. Rending does work though.

I don't know exactly what you guys mean by reliably but last 3 games I had my dreads shooting at AV 13 spam and could not stop them doing all sorts of nastyness especially with living metal. I think on average, I only glanced things to death by turn 5 or 6 with the auto cannons.

If the autocannons are S8, then you need a 6 to pen, not glance, and adding in some monkeys backed by meltamen is a great way to fight heavy tanks, especially in chimeras

If the autocannons are S8, then you need a 6 to pen, not glance, and adding in some monkeys backed by meltamen is a great way to fight heavy tanks, especially in chimeras

8+6 = 14, 14=14 = glance

you'd need 15's to pen armor 14 which is impossible unless you have 7 sided dice?

but against armor 13, then you'd be correct in that it does pen on a 6. Against armor 14, it most definately does not pen.

sudojoe wrote:

If the autocannons are S8, then you need a 6 to pen, not glance, and adding in some monkeys backed by meltamen is a great way to fight heavy tanks, especially in chimeras

8+6 = 14, 14=14 = glance

you'd need 15's to pen armor 14 which is impossible unless you have 7 sided dice?

but against armor 13, then you'd be correct in that it does pen on a 6. Against armor 14, it most definately does not pen.

I'm guessing everybody is forgetting abotu the Strength 7 assault cannons that Grey Knights can have thanks to psy-bolts. Rending is fun.

andrewm9 wrote:

sudojoe wrote:

If the autocannons are S8, then you need a 6 to pen, not glance, and adding in some monkeys backed by meltamen is a great way to fight heavy tanks, especially in chimeras

8+6 = 14, 14=14 = glance

you'd need 15's to pen armor 14 which is impossible unless you have 7 sided dice?

but against armor 13, then you'd be correct in that it does pen on a 6. Against armor 14, it most definately does not pen.

I'm guessing everybody is forgetting abotu the Strength 7 assault cannons that Grey Knights can have thanks to psy-bolts. Rending is fun.

I don't think we were forgetting but was discussing the auto cannon. And in terms of the assault cannons capabilities, I don't really like depending on rending hits but that's just me and the lack of range really starts to hinder the weapon. Though I suppose what with all the night fighting going on now a days, I may rethink this.

Ok so overwhelming the IG. I will give one disagreement to that, the IG struggles if an ememy can get up close quickly. For that reason I will say the eldar as the proliferation of S6 shots, dire avengers and fire dragons can deal out direct fire to beat the snot out of everyone at a relatively cheap cost.

sudojoe wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:

sudojoe wrote:

If the autocannons are S8, then you need a 6 to pen, not glance, and adding in some monkeys backed by meltamen is a great way to fight heavy tanks, especially in chimeras

8+6 = 14, 14=14 = glance

you'd need 15's to pen armor 14 which is impossible unless you have 7 sided dice?

but against armor 13, then you'd be correct in that it does pen on a 6. Against armor 14, it most definately does not pen.

I'm guessing everybody is forgetting abotu the Strength 7 assault cannons that Grey Knights can have thanks to psy-bolts. Rending is fun.

I don't think we were forgetting but was discussing the auto cannon. And in terms of the assault cannons capabilities, I don't really like depending on rending hits but that's just me and the lack of range really starts to hinder the weapon. Though I suppose what with all the night fighting going on now a days, I may rethink this.

Psycannons are also 24" range but with the amount of psycannons that people can take I don't think GK really need to worry about AV14 at all. trust me you will get the rending hits a plenty when each squad can pump out 4+ shots a turn at least and in some cases a lot more

It is a tie between 4 armies for me: Imperial Guard, Tau, Necrons and Dark Eldar.

Yep, thats all the really top teir shooting armies

Psycannons are also 24" range but with the amount of psycannons that people can take I don't think GK really need to worry about AV14 at all. trust me you will get the rending hits a plenty when each squad can pump out 4+ shots a turn at least and in some cases a lot more

24' really isn't all that far honestly and what with necrons and other GK being so popular now, that's within range of all their guns too. NM the IG and their big guns. So far I think I've only ever benefited from rending about 4 times out of oooo last 20 something games. Either it was a clear pen on rear or side armor or glance /does nothing. I'm just not seeing it in actual game play enough to depend on it. So far it falls into the "Sounds good on paper" categories for me.


The most reliable and effective in my opinion anyway, anti-av 14 in the GK arsenal has been the daemon hammer, interceptors getting shots on rear armor, vindicare assasin and multi-melta on the storm raven pretty much in that order. (vindicare could be higher but he's not always in my lists)

Yeah, Vindicares and SRGs are a nice add-on to deal with AV14

sudojoe wrote:

Psycannons are also 24" range but with the amount of psycannons that people can take I don't think GK really need to worry about AV14 at all. trust me you will get the rending hits a plenty when each squad can pump out 4+ shots a turn at least and in some cases a lot more

24' really isn't all that far honestly and what with necrons and other GK being so popular now, that's within range of all their guns too. NM the IG and their big guns. So far I think I've only ever benefited from rending about 4 times out of oooo last 20 something games. Either it was a clear pen on rear or side armor or glance /does nothing. I'm just not seeing it in actual game play enough to depend on it. So far it falls into the "Sounds good on paper" categories for me.


The most reliable and effective in my opinion anyway, anti-av 14 in the GK arsenal has been the daemon hammer, interceptors getting shots on rear armor, vindicare assasin and multi-melta on the storm raven pretty much in that order. (vindicare could be higher but he's not always in my lists)

Trust me playing with an effective range of 24" is plenty of distance. I know since playing with Sisters my effective range is 12" for the most part. Sure I've got weapons with a longer reach like the Exorcist and the occasional heavy bolter, but my primary anti-tank is the meltagun. Grey Knights have plenty of deployment options and reliable reserve rolls so the 24" is not as much of a handicap as you migth think unless you have been outmaneuvered completely. but we digress spending so much talking about GK. Sorry for dragging it so far away from the OP's question.

24" isn't bad until you realize that with newer dex's lots of things can reduce range, so alot of the time you'll have closer to 18"

IG, both in strength and pure volume of shots.

PraetorDave wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:How is that by a longshot? Their basic guns are worse then average and I get that they can bring a lot of them, but so can Orkz, and nobody is making a real case for orky shooting

Imperial guard shooting is light years better than Ork shooting. For one thing, IG has higher BS. It may only be one more, but that makes a huge difference when you are dropping 30 die down. Secondly, IG have rapid fire guns. Which means if you can get that 30 man blob within 12", you can drop 60 die (at BS3). On top of that, there are orders, namely FRFSRF. It adds another die to the shooting, so rapid fire range becomes 3 die (I don't actually have the codex so if I'm wrong, correct me). So lets drop 90 die on someone and see just about anything survive. On top of all this, they can get good special weapons in their blobs, things like Meltaguns and 2 wound lascannons.

While Orks can throw out tons of shots, it isn't nearly what IG infantry can do. The advantage to Orks is that they can shoot then assault. Plus with Slugga/Choppa boyz, it gives them the extra attack for when they assault in.

Lol no, Imperial Guard ARE the best shooting army in the game but I love how you only talk about 1 part of the resolution of shooting here. Lets's follow FRFSRF then shall we? 90 shots becomes 45 hits, which becomes 14-15 wounds on ork toughness, 4-5 orks are saved via KFF which means you effectively killed with 90 shots... 10 orks.... congrats 60 pts made lol. This is not why the IG are the best shooters and BS has really nothing to do with why IG are so powerful in the terms of shooting. here is why....

# Heavy weapons = More than anyone in the game
# of tanks = More than anyone in the game
# of Ordanice = More than anyone in the game
Vehicle Squadrons = more than anyone in the game
Number of special weapons = More than anyone in the game
Heavy support choices = Probably hardest hitting in the game (looking at you death strike missile!)
Smoke Launchers taken= More than u
Cover removing attacks = More than anyone in the game (hellhound,Nova cannon, collosusus canon, indirect fire)
Range = More than anyone in the game
oh yeah and Hell hounds + poison tanks

Tau may have strength or BS advantages but IG has buckshot and spammy guns this is why they are superior IMO.

Yeah, I think Necrons and Tau have a better quality of shooting, but the IG make up for it in numbers

Orks due to the ammount of fire power they can put out in one turn

I want to cite a game I had today where a load of shots failed to do anything to a unit of immortals

TheAngrySquig wrote:Yeah, I think Necrons and Tau have a better quality of shooting, but the IG make up for it in numbers

They have better infantry weapons and that's about it. In terms of specialist weapons (flamers, meltas, etc) IG can match them just as easily, and when it comes to the big guns, IG have weapons with greater AT capability than either (Medusa's with bastion breacher shells), weapons with greater range, weapons with greater anti-infantry ability, and weapons with better all purpose use.

What Tau did have was the ability to play peak-aboo and not take return fire, coupled with the ridiculous skimmer rules to keep them up. They'll have to be fundamentally changed likely. Necrons likely will have to engage in some sort of assaults against IG armies to prevail, and have some great CC units to do it with (scarabs, wraiths, etc) that are much more effective against IG than most others.

Have you played against the new Necrons? Their big tank hunting guns are destructive, the Necrons match the IG in range with a few exceptions, and you never really need longer then 72" range. The doomsday cannon destroys infantry, and the Tesla weapons are pretty all purpose

IG. The firepower a properly put-together IG army lays down is just horrifying. Nothing else comes close.

Necrons might be up there with them; I haven't played against the new Necrons yet, but looking over the Codex makes me wonder. They look like they might do quite well in terms of dakka-ness.

As much as I love Orks. . . they're not in the top tiers when it comes to shootiness. Lots of dakka, but it isn't very high quality dakka, and they have a horrible time dealing with vehicles. They're basically in the middle of the pack shooting-wise, along with Tau and all the MEQ armies.

Then Tyranids; Hive Guard are nice, but their shooting isn't really that impressive. It's those Fleet Gaunts with Poison attacks and I don't even know what-all else that are scary.

And then you have Daemons. Shooting? Ha, what shooting?