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Iranna wrote:

Joey wrote:
Eldar are weak and die easily. Manticores in particular can kill a squad each turn anywhere on the board.

That is true...

Untill you consider that I'm on you turn 2/3 blowing open those Manticores and the rest of your army with ~9 Alphastrike Wave Serpents.

Iranna.

O_o only if the IG player isn't getting to go first and is awful at providing cover/LoS blocking for their big guns and you've gotten amazing dice luck. On average, without cover saves and assuming all of them have LoS to a manticore, on average you might kill 1 with 9 TL BS3 missiles? And then you've used ~1200pts of expensive dedicated transports to engage 480pts of AV12 missile tanks? 9 missiles isn't much of an alpha strike.

Vaktathi wrote:

O_o only if the IG player isn't getting to go first and is awful at providing cover/LoS blocking for their big guns and you've gotten amazing dice luck. On average, without cover saves and assuming all of them have LoS to a manticore, on average you might kill 1 with 9 TL BS3 missiles? And then you've used ~1200pts of expensive dedicated transports to engage 480pts of AV12 missile tanks? 9 missiles isn't much of an alpha strike.

2 Autarchs = 2+ to come in on turn 2, so I'm coming in.

Flat-out with Star engines with all Wave Serpents so I'm in his deployment zone (any HS will hang back to zap stuff. )

Fire Dragons disembark.

Dead IG tanks. Wave Serpents use Star Engines to block LOS to Fire Dragons.

Rinse and repeat.

Iranna.

Iranna wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

O_o only if the IG player isn't getting to go first and is awful at providing cover/LoS blocking for their big guns and you've gotten amazing dice luck. On average, without cover saves and assuming all of them have LoS to a manticore, on average you might kill 1 with 9 TL BS3 missiles? And then you've used ~1200pts of expensive dedicated transports to engage 480pts of AV12 missile tanks? 9 missiles isn't much of an alpha strike.

2 Autarchs = 2+ to come in on turn 2, so I'm coming in.

Flat-out with Star engines with all Wave Serpents so I'm in his deployment zone (any HS will hang back to zap stuff. )

Fire Dragons disembark.

Dead IG tanks. Wave Serpents use Star Engines to block LOS to Fire Dragons.

Rinse and repeat.

Iranna.

You can move flat out and disembark?

Joey wrote:
You can move flat out and disembark?

Nope, that's where turn 3 comes in.

Iranna.

Iranna wrote:

Joey wrote:
You can move flat out and disembark?

Nope, that's where turn 3 comes in.

Iranna.

So I'd have an entire turn to blow up some transports with meltavets, manticores and Leman Russes?
I'd have to be really unlucky not to blow most of your army off the field. And my vehicles will be smothered in infantry guaranteeing a cover save.
I can't see something like that working in the game itself. Eldar love to die, their vehicles also.

Artemo wrote:
I think this (or rather a toned down version) is the case. People don't like it when the metagame changes. GK and Necrons have changed (and are changing) how the game is best played with armies that were previously rather 'point and click to win' (eg Imperial Weaklings, Wolfy McWolf Marines) - I exaggerate here a little for effect as I've learnt that this is the way of Dakka, reason is the enemy...

But also they change the value of 'internet wisdom' (or 'hackneyed dogma', if you prefer). For instance with some GK builds (and part of the 'problem' with them and Necrons is that they offer so many viable builds that the weak-minded - see disclaimer in previous paragraph - get all hot and bothered as if they could field everything at once) you really don't need more than 2 troop choices at 2000K, and you can field 'too few models'. things like this upset people and get them all in a tiz. Now nasty Necrons have units that can literally eat your vehicles without ever having to roll to penetrate, woe, woe, woe, the world is ended and they are broken. Or perhaps not...

I can actually understand an ork player sighing a bit when they consider Purifying Flame and look forward to losing 1/3 of their models before a blow is struck. I can undersatnd an Imperial Weakling player's tears as he watches his tank corp munched by scarabs or crunched by Might of Titan. (The despair of Space Fairies as their lance weapons fail to bring down shrouded-flat-outing stormravens on the other hand is just hilarious...).

But when new lists truck along and upset the game (like most of these lists have done in their time), real men just man up, change up their tactics, maybe tweak their all-comers lists a trifle and buckle down to learning how to win again.

Some codices are tougher than others, most certainly. But the cry of 'broken' or howl of 'overpowered' is the first and last refuge of the failed tactician (disclaimer again...)

I agree with you. . . to an extent. The fact is that some things ARE 'broken' or 'overpowered'. A lot fewer things than are called by those names, but they do exist.

No-one denies that the metagame changed between 4th and 5th editions. Vehicles got more powerful, transports became ubiquitous; the new Vehicle Damage Table was more forgiving, so vehicles were just better. This hurt some armies more than others; Orks, notably, pay more points than most for a worse transport, and they suffer for that. Tyranids don't HAVE transports, and they suffer for that. That's a change in the metagame, not "Bawww SM chapters are OP!!!!!!1". It made some armies worse and others better, but the change was universal, a thing to be dealt with.

What's broken is when something is introduced which changes the metagame with a single army, and not others; or, to put it differently, something that makes one army immune to the metagame. That is to say, when someone can consider the metagame, choose his units carefully, pay attention to the pros and cons, and then use them fairly well - in short, play smart and do everything right - and then lose not in SPITE of his careful preparation but BECAUSE of it, because something new has been introduced which specifically counters the metagame.

I can't think, off the top of my head, of a time when that happened. And I don't know if Scarabs are one of these things; I haven't played against them yet, and I just can't say. But I suspect they might be. The metagame of 5th Edition has consistently favored MSU in transports, with lots of heavy weapons; Scarabs, as far as I can tell, are capable of very nearly removing the transports as a factor. It might be that a good, solid all-comers list from some or most armies simply can't deal with a scarab-heavy Necron army. If it comes down to a choice of 'list-tailor to win against Necrons, play worse against everyone else' or 'Play with a solid TAC list, fight at a significant disadvantage against Necrons because of it', that means that Scarabs are broken.

If all or most of the next crop of netlists include a unit specifically to counter scarabs, I'd take that as pretty solid evidence that they're broken.

Joey wrote:
So I'd have an entire turn to blow up some transports with meltavets, manticores and Leman Russes?
I'd have to be really unlucky not to blow most of your army off the field. And my vehicles will be smothered in infantry guaranteeing a cover save.
I can't see something like that working in the game itself. Eldar love to die, their vehicles also.

Indeed you have!

Needing a minimum of 5 to pen with no 2D6 Melta or Ordnance bonuses (Thanks to energy fields) and with me having a 4+ Cover save from moving flat out.

Then, I'll be able to move 12" and disembark, ready to shoot your tanks while my Fire Prisms out in back zap your infantry with AP4 large blasts.

It's much harder to kill than you'd think.

Iranna.

Iranna wrote:
2 Autarchs = 2+ to come in on turn 2, so I'm coming in.

Flat-out with Star engines with all Wave Serpents so I'm in his deployment zone (any HS will hang back to zap stuff. )

Fire Dragons disembark.

Dead IG tanks. Wave Serpents use Star Engines to block LOS to Fire Dragons.

Rinse and repeat.

Iranna.

So we've got Fire Dragons as well then, however, that said, the IG player should immediately see that plan once he sees you reserving everything. I play an Eldar army very similar to the one you describe, if an opponent has seen it once then they know exactly what's coming and it's not difficult for IG to defeat it, they can park sacrificial chimeras in front of their important vehicles, castle up or spread out as needed, and pop smoke for that turn 3 semi-alpha strike if they wish, and of course you're sitting there for a turn in perfect range and LoS of all those autocannons, melta guns (even without double-pen they still are dangerous to wave serpents), multi-lasers, plasma guns, lascannons, etc. even if you are getting your cover save, and those fire dragons typcially evaporate after they deploy. And those Wave Serpents are going to have a difficult time covering those fire dragons, and if they're having to utilize star engines to do it, they aren't firing with those missile launchers.

9 wave serpents sporting EML's and I'm assuming spirit stones with 3 squads of minimum fire dragons and I'm assuming 6 min sized squads of dire avengers and 2 barebones autarch's gives puts you at 1910pts, not much left for HS units or a whole lot of upgrades.

It might be that a good, solid all-comers list from some or most armies simply can't deal with a scarab-heavy Necron army.

It might be that a good, solid all-comers list from some or most armies simply can't deal with a scarab-heavy Necron army unless the palyer changes his tactics...

Or very rarely decides the previously viable build is no longer so as an all-comers, which doesn't make scarabs broken unless you just define broken as 'something that changes the game in a way 'specific army x' doesn't care for or can't handle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
NB 'specific army x' as in 'list' not 'codex'.

Vaktathi wrote: So we've got Fire Dragons as well then, however, that said, the IG player should immediately see that plan once he sees you reserving everything. I play an Eldar army very similar to the one you describe, if an opponent has seen it once then they know exactly what's coming and it's not difficult for IG to defeat it, they can park sacrificial chimeras in front of their important vehicles, castle up or spread out as needed, and pop smoke for that turn 3 semi-alpha strike if they wish, and of course you're sitting there for a turn in perfect range and LoS of all those autocannons, melta guns (even without double-pen they still are dangerous to wave serpents), multi-lasers, plasma guns, lascannons, etc. even if you are getting your cover save, and those fire dragons typcially evaporate after they deploy. And those Wave Serpents are going to have a difficult time covering those fire dragons, and if they're having to utilize star engines to do it, they aren't firing with those missile launchers.

9 wave serpents sporting EML's and I'm assuming spirit stones with 3 squads of minimum fire dragons and I'm assuming 6 min sized squads of dire avengers and 2 barebones autarch's gives puts you at 1910pts, not much left for HS units or a whole lot of upgrades.

That's what the '~' symbol was for, usually I run around 7.

Of course, it's no cake-walk. It'll hard-going for the Eldar, but it is most definately do-able. I'm yet to meet a list in which Eldar don't have a hope in hell of countering, sure it's usually an uphill battle, but it's never impossible.

Iranna.

The strongest armies are:

GK,
SW,
IG,
Orks,
Venomspam DE.

Any other army I can confidently fight with my tau.

Iranna wrote:

Vaktathi wrote: So we've got Fire Dragons as well then, however, that said, the IG player should immediately see that plan once he sees you reserving everything. I play an Eldar army very similar to the one you describe, if an opponent has seen it once then they know exactly what's coming and it's not difficult for IG to defeat it, they can park sacrificial chimeras in front of their important vehicles, castle up or spread out as needed, and pop smoke for that turn 3 semi-alpha strike if they wish, and of course you're sitting there for a turn in perfect range and LoS of all those autocannons, melta guns (even without double-pen they still are dangerous to wave serpents), multi-lasers, plasma guns, lascannons, etc. even if you are getting your cover save, and those fire dragons typcially evaporate after they deploy. And those Wave Serpents are going to have a difficult time covering those fire dragons, and if they're having to utilize star engines to do it, they aren't firing with those missile launchers.

9 wave serpents sporting EML's and I'm assuming spirit stones with 3 squads of minimum fire dragons and I'm assuming 6 min sized squads of dire avengers and 2 barebones autarch's gives puts you at 1910pts, not much left for HS units or a whole lot of upgrades.

That's what the '~' symbol was for, usually I run around 7.

Of course, it's no cake-walk. It'll hard-going for the Eldar, but it is most definately do-able. I'm yet to meet a list in which Eldar don't have a hope in hell of countering, sure it's usually an uphill battle, but it's never impossible.

Iranna.

nothing is impossible because 40k is based on random dicerolls.
A single guardsmen could kill a demon prince. could.
He could even kill 10.
Why are you loathe to concede that eldar are weak?

Artemo wrote:
It might be that a good, solid all-comers list from some or most armies simply can't deal with a scarab-heavy Necron army unless the palyer changes his tactics...

Or very rarely decides the previously viable build is no longer so as an all-comers, which doesn't make scarabs broken unless you just define broken as 'something that changes the game in a way 'specific army x' doesn't care for or can't handle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
NB 'specific army x' as in 'list' not 'codex'.

I define broken, as I thought I made clear in my post above, as 'Something that makes what is a GOOD idea against anyone else a BAD idea against this particular army.'

If MSU in transports is the generally-accepted dominant army structure, which I believe it is, than a unit which is ineffective against hordes but massacres MSU in transports is broken. Why? Because in order to deal with it effectively, you must deliberately make your army WORSE against ANYTHING ELSE.

Do Scarabs do this? I don't know, as I also said in my previous post. I haven't played against them. But they're the only thing I've seen in 40k, so far, which MIGHT. So I'm skeptical.

Artemo wrote:
It might be that a good, solid all-comers list from some or most armies simply can't deal with a scarab-heavy Necron army unless the palyer changes his tactics...

Likely we're not talking a change in tactics but rather army build, not the same thing. Often there's not a radically different way to play any particular list.

Generally if a solid all comers list has an issue with something and it isn't some sort of weird niche list and something comes out and totally screws it (not necessarily saying that's the case here either way) that's usually indicative something is wrong with the new unit however. If armies have to change to counter one specific thing from one army and become less effective against the majority of other armies, that's usually a good idea that that thing is broken.

Joey wrote:
nothing is impossible because 40k is based on random dicerolls.
A single guardsmen could kill a demon prince. could.
He could even kill 10.
Why are you loathe to concede that eldar are weak?

Why are you quick to assume that they are?

Eldar may not be on top at this moment in 40k (something I'm quietly confident will change with the advent of 6th) but they are by no means anywhere near the bottom.

Iranna.

eldar are slippery foes, both dark and craft. imo if you have enough points then send in 3 monoliths...

skwiff wrote:eldar are slippery foes, both dark and craft. imo if you have enough points then send in 3 monoliths...

3 manticores will do the job much better, and from far further away. 3 D3 S10 pie plates with no cover save for anything not in area terrain.
The fact that they're capable of being bad rather than terrible is neither here nor there, they've lost out to codex creep.

Joey wrote:

skwiff wrote:eldar are slippery foes, both dark and craft. imo if you have enough points then send in 3 monoliths...

3 manticores will do the job much better, and from far further away. 3 D3 S10 pie plates with no cover save for anything not in area terrain.
The fact that they're capable of being bad rather than terrible is neither here nor there, they've lost out to codex creep.

thats all well and good but i was thinking on the non apocalyspe scale ^^ plus you can look at the horror on the face of your rival^^ when three monoliths deepstrike onto the field

skwiff wrote:

Joey wrote:

skwiff wrote:eldar are slippery foes, both dark and craft. imo if you have enough points then send in 3 monoliths...

3 manticores will do the job much better, and from far further away. 3 D3 S10 pie plates with no cover save for anything not in area terrain.
The fact that they're capable of being bad rather than terrible is neither here nor there, they've lost out to codex creep.

thats all well and good but i was thinking on the non apocalyspe scale ^^ plus you can look at the horror on the face of your rival^^ when three monoliths deepstrike onto the field

And deathstrikes are more menacing then Manticores.

im2randomghgh wrote:

skwiff wrote:

Joey wrote:

skwiff wrote:eldar are slippery foes, both dark and craft. imo if you have enough points then send in 3 monoliths...

3 manticores will do the job much better, and from far further away. 3 D3 S10 pie plates with no cover save for anything not in area terrain.
The fact that they're capable of being bad rather than terrible is neither here nor there, they've lost out to codex creep.

thats all well and good but i was thinking on the non apocalyspe scale ^^ plus you can look at the horror on the face of your rival^^ when three monoliths deepstrike onto the field

And deathstrikes are more menacing then Manticores.

BOOM! partical whip (X3) to your avatar!

Blood Angels

skwiff wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

skwiff wrote:

Joey wrote:

skwiff wrote:eldar are slippery foes, both dark and craft. imo if you have enough points then send in 3 monoliths...

3 manticores will do the job much better, and from far further away. 3 D3 S10 pie plates with no cover save for anything not in area terrain.
The fact that they're capable of being bad rather than terrible is neither here nor there, they've lost out to codex creep.

thats all well and good but i was thinking on the non apocalyspe scale ^^ plus you can look at the horror on the face of your rival^^ when three monoliths deepstrike onto the field

And deathstrikes are more menacing then Manticores.

BOOM! partical whip (X3) to your avatar!

BOOM! Weapon powerful enough to make a titan proud!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hooking Squaks,

Your signature burns.

im2randomghgh wrote:

skwiff wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

skwiff wrote:

Joey wrote:

skwiff wrote:eldar are slippery foes, both dark and craft. imo if you have enough points then send in 3 monoliths...

3 manticores will do the job much better, and from far further away. 3 D3 S10 pie plates with no cover save for anything not in area terrain.
The fact that they're capable of being bad rather than terrible is neither here nor there, they've lost out to codex creep.

thats all well and good but i was thinking on the non apocalyspe scale ^^ plus you can look at the horror on the face of your rival^^ when three monoliths deepstrike onto the field

And deathstrikes are more menacing then Manticores.

BOOM! partical whip (X3) to your avatar!

BOOM! Weapon powerful enough to make a titan proud!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hooking Squaks,

Your signature burns.

hand of god?

Joey wrote:
3 manticores will do the job much better, and from far further away. 3 D3 S10 pie plates with no cover save for anything not in area terrain.
The fact that they're capable of being bad rather than terrible is neither here nor there, they've lost out to codex creep.

My Seer Council says otherwise. Ask anyone in my area.

Iranna.

Iranna wrote:

Joey wrote:
3 manticores will do the job much better, and from far further away. 3 D3 S10 pie plates with no cover save for anything not in area terrain.
The fact that they're capable of being bad rather than terrible is neither here nor there, they've lost out to codex creep.

My Seer Council says otherwise. Ask anyone in my area.

Iranna.

a 4+ invulnerable save on an expensive unit that would be crushed by a power blob? Really?

Joey wrote:
a 4+ invulnerable save on an expensive unit that would be crushed by a power blob? Really?

3+/4++ re-rollable unit with enough heavy flamers to make a power blob quake in its boots?

Yeah.

Iranna.

Iranna wrote:

Joey wrote:
a 4+ invulnerable save on an expensive unit that would be crushed by a power blob? Really?

3+/4++ re-rollable unit with enough heavy flamers to make a power blob quake in its boots?

Yeah.

Iranna.

30 lasguns with FRFSRF gives 90 shots, 45 hits, 22.5 wounds.
given a ten man squad including farseer that's 2.2 wounds each. Chance of an invididual failing are 1/6 with the re-rolls, 1/3 since it's two wounds.
So you'd lose a third of that squad with ONE volley of lasguns. That's an awful lot of points.

Joey wrote:
30 lasguns with FRFSRF gives 90 shots, 45 hits, 22.5 wounds.
given a ten man squad including farseer that's 2.2 wounds each. Chance of an invididual failing are 1/6 with the re-rolls, 1/3 since it's two wounds.
So you'd lose a third of that squad with ONE volley of lasguns. That's an awful lot of points.

That is an awful lot of points for 3 models.

Then I roast you, killing anywhere from 10-20 Guadsmen.

Charge, I hit on 3s and wound on 2s. you hit on 4s (Guardsmen are WS 3 right?) and wound on 5s. So let's say that I killed 15 for the Destructor spam.

My attacks:

24 attacks, hitting on 3s = 18 hits = 15 wounds = 12 dead Guardsmen. (Assuming no Doom)

you have ~6 power weapon attacks depending on unit composition and ~21 normal attacks.

3 Power weapon hits and ~10 normal hits

1 Power Weapon wound and ~ 3 normal wounds, with re-rolls. So there's a good chance that no one would die, but let's give you one.

I win by 11.

Two turns max and then you're wiped.

Iranna.

partical whips x3? i wouldnt like to see the eldar who looks good after that! might be a bit crispy

The most overpowered army......that depends on the player, if the player is a tactical god he/she can win swiftly and brutally, also same goes for the lucky players