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He would most likely carve through your car with his chainsword/ power sword and you'd be left feeling in an old 1950's comedy movie

On topic though? Most tank weaponry, I feel our modern day assault rifles and general small arms are useless, arn't marine ribs formed into a breastplate capable of blocking modern day small arms? And last I checked it'd be hard hitting a super mobile target with incredible reflexes with tanks when he's gonna get first shot.

I'm 100% sure that a Sabot can kill them one shot. A HEAT round not so much because it may not explode directly. A CAN round

For the non initiated whats the difference between these? A tank shells going to wreck him anyway no?

What about a minigun?
Would an anti personel mine do the trick too? Would it have to be anti tank size to work?

i think you all are overestimating a space marine and underestimating modern day weapons. there are a huge amount of weapons that could kill a space marine, but right now the big question is armour or no armour?
also, how OTT are we going with our weapons? we could launch him into a black hole, we could strap a nuke to his chest, damn, we could also stick him in a partical accelerator...
most guns could easily pop a space marine in the head as long as he's not wearing armour, just remember that the majority of sm weapons are also bullets, granted there like, 1 cal bullets fired from a cannon which explode on impact but still...
dont get me wrong, there are plenty of guns wich he could just lol at, take the .22 rimfire for example, former president reagen or whatever he was called took one of those bullets and diddent even realise till much later -_-
if he was wearing armour then an anti aircraft gun would more then do the job
a space marine is for all intents and purposes, just a really big guy, he is one head higher than the average man, and has very big muscles, but his armour servos do a lot of the job for him. i think a determined body builder could become as strong as a space marine if he tried.

Lets say he has full battle armor on then for all weapons against him.

Anti-tank weapons from a smaw upwards. I doubt a LAW could take out a marine. A 50 Cal if you hit a joint, small arms if you aimed for the head or joins.

For insurance I'd want an A-10 strafing run though

A rock. Not even a hard rock. If i throw a lot he will fail an armor save.

If a regular bolt pistol or bolter can take him out a moder day 40mm grenade could. Remember a Bolter fires 30mm missiles.

shadowsnip wrote:but also according to the fluff 1000 marines can defeat an entire planet. So according to the fluff 1000 marines can take on all the combined military forces of our planet.

In those cases though, they're talking about taking out the local PDF. And in 40k, PDFs are about as lethal as a stoner frat after a one week spring break in Jamaica.

daveNYC wrote:
In those cases though, they're talking about taking out the local PDF. And in 40k, PDFs are about as lethal as a stoner frat after a one week spring break in Jamaica.

This is true to some point. PDF strength depends on world in question. Most of them just serve several years as PDF troopers and never see conflict in life.
Other PDF are elite troops that are even better then some Guard Regiments.
We would be real challenge to Marines since we didn't have a day in past century without a war. And we wage wars occasionally when we are bored, meaning that we are always in top form.

A nuke...

Ratius wrote:

I'm 100% sure that a Sabot can kill them one shot. A HEAT round not so much because it may not explode directly. A CAN round

For the non initiated whats the difference between these? A tank shells going to wreck him anyway no?

What about a minigun?
Would an anti personel mine do the trick too? Would it have to be anti tank size to work?

A Sabot uses kinetic energy to punch through its targets. Its a depleted uranium spear tip i guess. Its about as long as a forearm. It sharpens itself as it passes through armor. Its what we use to kill other tank. A HEAT round is light armored vehicles. It has an explosive tip like an RPG kinda. It hits the tip and it explode on contact. If you hit him in the chest dead on he KIA but if you could glance him. Now that chances of that are slim to none but he it could happen.

Brother Coa wrote:
This is true to some point. PDF strength depends on world in question. Most of them just serve several years as PDF troopers and never see conflict in life.
Other PDF are elite troops that are even better then some Guard Regiments.
We would be real challenge to Marines since we didn't have a day in past century without a war. And we wage wars occasionally when we are bored, meaning that we are always in top form.

Reading this has made me realise that you are right. Soilders modern day are always on top form and we are never not in a war or there is a short period in between. I also feel that a 1000 Space marines would find it hard to defeat our planet. It would be very odd and they would never have experienced our type of warfare. Modern day warfare is very hit and run. Unlike 40k war which is either huge conflicts or they walk around a base shooting whatever shoots back. They are also normally verry close to each other. I would say that we would have no problem enilating 1000 marines. I would say that 3000-5000 moder day soilders armed how they are now with grenades and grenade launchers and such. They could easily kill 1000 marines if it was a straight up battle and we used our hit and run guerilla style warfare.

redkeyboard wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
This is true to some point. PDF strength depends on world in question. Most of them just serve several years as PDF troopers and never see conflict in life.
Other PDF are elite troops that are even better then some Guard Regiments.
We would be real challenge to Marines since we didn't have a day in past century without a war. And we wage wars occasionally when we are bored, meaning that we are always in top form.

Reading this has made me realise that you are right. Soilders modern day are always on top form and we are never not in a war or there is a short period in between. I also feel that a 1000 Space marines would find it hard to defeat our planet. It would be very odd and they would never have experienced our type of warfare. Modern day warfare is very hit and run. Unlike 40k war which is either huge conflicts or they walk around a base shooting whatever shoots back. They are also normally verry close to each other. I would say that we would have no problem enilating 1000 marines. I would say that 3000-5000 moder day soilders armed how they are now with grenades and grenade launchers and such. They could easily kill 1000 marines if it was a straight up battle and we used our hit and run guerilla style warfare.

SM specialise in shock tactics, presicion strikes, and hit and run. A full chapter would do considerable damage before they went down though they'd die eventually.

I would agree that many people overestimate the marines. Bolters aren't grenade launchers, and numerous modern day weapons can threaten them, though they are all in the anti-tank range.

But that is kind of the point, if you need to equip your basic infantry with anti tank weaponry to kill the opponents infantry who uses a weapon that will generally incapacitate your own troops if they are hit anywhere, you are screwed.

However, the one that that marines are constantly underestimated for is their ability to survive when taken out. Lots of our weaponry could incapacitate a marine, but most of it wont actually kill them. Their fast clotting, redundant organs, and numerous other enhancements mean they have a very high survivability rate. The marines are notable for just how common cybernetics are among their ranks. It is very common for veterans to be missing eyes, chunks of skulls, and limbs.


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redkeyboard wrote:
Reading this has made me realise that you are right. Soilders modern day are always on top form and we are never not in a war or there is a short period in between. I also feel that a 1000 Space marines would find it hard to defeat our planet. It would be very odd and they would never have experienced our type of warfare. Modern day warfare is very hit and run. Unlike 40k war which is either huge conflicts or they walk around a base shooting whatever shoots back. They are also normally verry close to each other. I would say that we would have no problem enilating 1000 marines. I would say that 3000-5000 moder day soilders armed how they are now with grenades and grenade launchers and such. They could easily kill 1000 marines if it was a straight up battle and we used our hit and run guerilla style warfare.

No, that isn't right. Imperial Armour books give a much better overview of how marines fight than their codex or novels do. They are all about hit and run, shadow strikes, and sabotage. And they are very, VERY good at it. Their drop pod tech means you have NO defensive lines, you have to protect everything at all times against an enemy impervious to small arms fire. And we can't use most of our big guns in that situation.

The tabletop game only simulates one kind of warfare in 40k, small, up close battles where air superiority has not been achieved and heavy bombardment isn't an option. It isn't the most common type of warfare. You aren't even fighting full on battles, just a small portion of one battle for a short amount of time.

I just can't see us doing well against marines. It's not that I think a chapter could conquer our planet without orbital support, any more than a seal team could conquer the victorian age british empire, they aren't built for it and don't have the numbers. But WE would be the ones at the receiving end of the guerilla warfare. Just think about it:
* They can launch a full scale assault anywhere on the planet at a moments notice with total impunity
* Their basic weapon will take out any of our solders in a single shot
* Our troops have to use AT weaponry on infantry to threaten them
* They can and do use advanced jamming technology, while we have no way to respond in kind
* they can typically be in and out before we can bring heavy weaponry to bear
* they can choose the battlefield at will, and will likely choose battlefields where we can't bring our heaviest weapons to bear anyways.

In an open field, I'll grant you, the marines are screwed. But, again, that is like saying 1800's Britain could beat us because they could take on navy seals in open field combat. It is a fact that in open field combat 5000 Red Coats with cannon support could defeat a special forces team. So the special forces would never fight that way.

And neither would the marines. Look how they act in Siege of Vraks. The IG is conducting siege warfare, the SM occasionally swoop in, perform surgical strikes, and dissapear within a half hour.

They couldn't conquer us, but we couldn't beat them.

Honestly, I think a lot of people here are downplaying how tough Space Marines are supposed to be.

A bullet penetrates armor through sheer velocity; it dumps enough kinetic energy on a small enough space to punch through what it's aimed at. BUt it's actually pretty simple to prevent that.

Look at a Space Marine model, or pictures of them in the fluff. See how their armor is made? Barrel chest that slopes away to the sides, rounded arms and legs, big round pauldrons. I doubt GW knows much about armor design, but they got that mostly right actually. Those curved plates will shed bullet like raindrops. A curved piece of metal/ceramics/what have you doesn't have to absorb all the kinetic energy of a bullets impact. Instead, it only absorbs part of the energy; enough to deflect the round to the side,, where it continues flying at reduced speed. I think if you opened up on a Space Marine with a .50 cal machine gun you would see a lot of sparks and maybe some surface scarring or cracking on the power armor (depending on the hardness of what it's made of), but you'd have to get quite lucky to actually penetrate the armor and injure him.

This, by the way, is why most modern anti-tank munitions use methods OTHER than kinetic impact to achieve a kill; the armor of a modern tank is designed to ricochet projectiles away rather than absorbing the full force of the impact. If you want to kill a Space Marine, you need to think of him as a tank. Even if you assumed Power Armor was no tougher than modern composites, look at how thick it is; he's WEARING as much armor as a tank!

That being so, the only way to kill him with a pure kinetic projectile would be to either a) use a round so big or fired so fast that it blew through the PA with only a fraction of it's kinetic energy, or b) hit him in one of the non-curved parts of the armor. Now, PA does seem to have quite a few 'bullet traps' in it; a shot that hit one of the eyepieces could do something, the place where the pauldrons meet the chest-plate might be vulnerable, the knee-joints seem somewhat exposed when the Space Marine's legs are bent. But it's an open question how powerful a round you'd need to get one through the armor even in one of those weak spots; I tend to think it would have to be quite powerful, because, well, an M2 is not going to be able to shoot through the armor of an Abrams. . . and I think that's roughly the level of protection PA provides. Perhaps a direct hit on an eyepiece could punch through.

Then you have to contend with the fact that a Space Marine is simply much, much tougher than an ordinary human. Most people, if they took a .50 caliber machine gun round to the shoulder or knee, would be totally disabled or killed outright. A Space Marine? He's not going to go into shock, he's not going to be disabled by the pain, and he's not going to bleed out, so if he's not dead when he hits the ground he's still fighting. Remember, these guys get into drop-pods and are literally FIRED at their target; that alone would shatter every bone in a normal man's body, and Space Marines do it routinely. If you DO get a round through an open knee-joint, you will only slow him down; and it isn't that likely that you will, since while he's a bigger target than a man he's also faster and more agile, with much better reflexes. Not to mention that your fire will likely be somewhat suppressed by the stream of precisely aimed RPG rounds he's firing back at you.

Tl;dr - you need to either use heavy, specialized AT weapons, or literally fill the air with high-caliber machine-gun rounds and play the averages. Normal small arms and grenades will do nothing; Anti-materiel rifles might, but only if you hit him in exactly the right spot. A sniper weapon MIGHT, but once again, only if you hit him in precisely the right place, and even once you pass through the armor most of your shots will only wound him. A radar or laser-guided AT missile will most likely kill or seriously injure a Space Marine, but very little short of that has anything like a good chance.




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SwiftLord14 wrote:[

A Sabot uses kinetic energy to punch through its targets. Its a depleted uranium spear tip i guess. Its about as long as a forearm. It sharpens itself as it passes through armor. Its what we use to kill other tank. A HEAT round is light armored vehicles. It has an explosive tip like an RPG kinda. It hits the tip and it explode on contact. If you hit him in the chest dead on he KIA but if you could glance him. Now that chances of that are slim to none but he it could happen.

A sabot actually liquifies/vaporizes partially from the force of contact when it hits a target; the heat and pressure wave generated are just as important to the kill as the actual kinetic impact. It's quite possible for an AT round to 'kill' a tank without ever fully penetrating the armor, since the heat and pressure can cause the inner layers of the armor to shatter and spray molten-hot shrapnel across the crew compartment.

purplefood wrote:

redkeyboard wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
This is true to some point. PDF strength depends on world in question. Most of them just serve several years as PDF troopers and never see conflict in life.
Other PDF are elite troops that are even better then some Guard Regiments.
We would be real challenge to Marines since we didn't have a day in past century without a war. And we wage wars occasionally when we are bored, meaning that we are always in top form.

Reading this has made me realise that you are right. Soilders modern day are always on top form and we are never not in a war or there is a short period in between. I also feel that a 1000 Space marines would find it hard to defeat our planet. It would be very odd and they would never have experienced our type of warfare. Modern day warfare is very hit and run. Unlike 40k war which is either huge conflicts or they walk around a base shooting whatever shoots back. They are also normally verry close to each other. I would say that we would have no problem enilating 1000 marines. I would say that 3000-5000 moder day soilders armed how they are now with grenades and grenade launchers and such. They could easily kill 1000 marines if it was a straight up battle and we used our hit and run guerilla style warfare.

SM specialise in shock tactics, presicion strikes, and hit and run. A full chapter would do considerable damage before they went down though they'd die eventually.

You are both right, we can defeat 1000 Marines no problem.
Problem would be if they bring few more Chapters and around 20 Guard Regiments.

Gauss weaponry in Fall of Damnos bounce and deflect off of Space Marine power armor at times. Gauss weaponry.

So yeah they're tough as nails. But there's always the lucky shot or the straight-on shot that penetrates. Plenty of large weaponry in use today that could kill a SM, if that SM was not using battle tactics and just standing in the open.

A .32 purse gun could kill a marine if it got him in the brain, and could kill him in two hits if it got his hearts.

In armor you'd want an anti-tank weapon.

Nazgren wrote:i think you all are overestimating a space marine and underestimating modern day weapons. there are a huge amount of weapons that could kill a space marine, but right now the big question is armour or no armour?
also, how OTT are we going with our weapons? we could launch him into a black hole, we could strap a nuke to his chest, damn, we could also stick him in a partical accelerator...
most guns could easily pop a space marine in the head as long as he's not wearing armour, just remember that the majority of sm weapons are also bullets, granted there like, 1 cal bullets fired from a cannon which explode on impact but still...
dont get me wrong, there are plenty of guns wich he could just lol at, take the .22 rimfire for example, former president reagen or whatever he was called took one of those bullets and diddent even realise till much later -_-
if he was wearing armour then an anti aircraft gun would more then do the job
a space marine is for all intents and purposes, just a really big guy, he is one head higher than the average man, and has very big muscles, but his armour servos do a lot of the job for him. i think a determined body builder could become as strong as a space marine if he tried.

No normal human can train or body build enough to become as powerful as a Space Marine. Don't forget the Ossmodula which enhances the bones of a SM and encourages the forming bone to accept ceramic-based chemicals. Their bones become bulletproof.

Also it has been surmised that a large SM could weigh more than 800 lbs and it is standard for todays bodybuilders to be able to lift 1.5 to 2 times their own body weight. So... a SM on average might be able to lift 1600 lbs without the assitance of his power armor. That is beyond beastly. It's downright terrifying.

Melissia wrote:A .32 purse gun could kill a marine if it got him in the brain, and could kill him in two hits if it got his hearts.

In armor you'd want an anti-tank weapon.

I honestly doubt a .32 could penetrate a space marines re-enforced skeleton. .32s can have a hard time penetrating regular human bones.

Even if it could, if one guy can hit you in the arm, leg, or even hand and completely incapacitate you with shock and blood loss, and you have to hit him in a 'weak spot', your pretty much screwed. You can't aim like that in actual battle.

Problem is SM are dead 'ard (regarding the prius they would probabbly eat one for breakfast)
you would need an intense amount of trauma to even phase a marine like that of an AT missile
1 on 1 an abrams wouldnt even do the trick because fluff wise marines can rip through tanks with there bare hands

Nazgren wrote:
most guns could easily pop a space marine in the head as long as he's not wearing armour...
dont get me wrong, there are plenty of guns wich he could just lol at, take the .22 rimfire for example, former president reagen or whatever he was called took one of those bullets and diddent even realise till much later -_-
if he was wearing armour then an anti aircraft gun would more then do the job
a space marine is for all intents and purposes, just a really big guy, he is one head higher than the average man, and has very big muscles, but his armour servos do a lot of the job for him. i think a determined body builder could become as strong as a space marine if he tried.

First of all, no, only moderately powerfl rounds cool. A .22 or .32 is going to bounce off a regular human skull, a space marine is going to be virtually impervious to .45's anywhere below the neckline.

A space marine is not just a really big guy. His biggest strengths are going to be how he clots almost instantly and doesn't go into shock when shot. Bleeding and shock are how bullets put you down, you are removing 90% of their effectiveness right there. Add to that their increased density in bone and muscle, and armored rib cage, now you can't even hit vital organs with most pistols.

Now add in his enhanced reflexes, speed, and muscle mass (no, a human body builder cannot achieve the same level of strength). You are going to have a hard time hitting him at all.

Then add in his decades of training and experience. He is more skilled at shooting, hand to hand, tactics, and strategy than anyone alive today.

Again, it isn't that you can't hurt him, it is just how much easier it is for him to hurt you than for you to hurt him. He's smarter, faster, stronger, and has more experience. You have to do catastrophic injury or get very lucky. He just needs to hit you. It is like playing Juggernaught mode against five year olds. Sure they COULD kill you, they technically have the capability, but that is only going to happen if you let that happen.

Without the armor he is already a friggin monster. With the armor? Well, we've discussed that.

purplefood wrote:

redkeyboard wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
This is true to some point. PDF strength depends on world in question. Most of them just serve several years as PDF troopers and never see conflict in life.
Other PDF are elite troops that are even better then some Guard Regiments.
We would be real challenge to Marines since we didn't have a day in past century without a war. And we wage wars occasionally when we are bored, meaning that we are always in top form.

Reading this has made me realise that you are right. Soilders modern day are always on top form and we are never not in a war or there is a short period in between. I also feel that a 1000 Space marines would find it hard to defeat our planet. It would be very odd and they would never have experienced our type of warfare. Modern day warfare is very hit and run. Unlike 40k war which is either huge conflicts or they walk around a base shooting whatever shoots back. They are also normally verry close to each other. I would say that we would have no problem enilating 1000 marines. I would say that 3000-5000 moder day soilders armed how they are now with grenades and grenade launchers and such. They could easily kill 1000 marines if it was a straight up battle and we used our hit and run guerilla style warfare.

SM specialise in shock tactics, presicion strikes, and hit and run. A full chapter would do considerable damage before they went down though they'd die eventually.

We wouldn't ever be defeating a full Chapter, simply because they'd have Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers. If we get as far as to actually get the upper hand, even with them deploying via Drop Pod to take out our most important military targets first, there's always the good old "Nuke them from orbit" available for the Astartes. We wouldn't be able to even scratch the paint of their ships.

IronSnake wrote:Gauss weaponry in Fall of Damnos bounce and deflect off of Space Marine power armor at times. Gauss weaponry.

So yeah they're tough as nails. But there's always the lucky shot or the straight-on shot that penetrates. Plenty of large weaponry in use today that could kill a SM, if that SM was not using battle tactics and just standing in the open.

then again:

Necroshea wrote:Soul Eaters book. A SM captain hardened in the heat of hundreds of battles allows a child to just walk up to him and stab him with a needle, killing him.

Coolyo294 wrote:In "Purging of Kadillus", an Assault Marine landed on a rock badly, broke his ankle, and was then killed by Orks.

Void__Dragon wrote:Apparently in the Grey Knights Omnibus, some Grey Knights fight some humans with medieval weaponry.
One of the Grey Knights is killed by a normal sword.
Apparently. Haven't read it myself.

Asherian Command wrote:One of the Astrates in the wanderers threw a grenade it bounced back and killed him.
Also a few astrates deaths were when a marine tripped and landed on a land mine.
Also one of my chapters one time dropped the life eater virus inside one of their ships it destroyed half the chapter....

Da Boss wrote:Crimson Fists have to take the cake. Awesome colour scheme, awesome chapter. Killed by a faulty missile.

Coolyo294 wrote:Don't forget about the Imperial Fist Captain that teleported into a rock...

They can die easily to.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
We wouldn't ever be defeating a full Chapter, simply because they'd have Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers. If we get as far as to actually get the upper hand, even with them deploying via Drop Pod to take out our most important military targets first, there's always the good old "Nuke them from orbit" available for the Astartes. We wouldn't be able to even scratch the paint of their ships.

Yes, that is always there, but in these types of discussions it is best to put some limitations on the confrontation. Obviously orbital bombardment always trumps no orbital bombardment, but we are discussing ground forces and tactics.

riplikash wrote:I honestly doubt a .32 could penetrate a space marines re-enforced skeleton.

It wouldn't have to. Marines have eyes that can be shot to.

riplikash wrote:Even if it could, if one guy can hit you in the arm, leg, or even hand and completely incapacitate you with shock and blood loss, and you have to hit him in a 'weak spot', your pretty much screwed. You can't aim like that in actual battle.

In actual battle you'd be using a better weapon anyway.

Marine ribs have been compared to fused brass or something. I can bend brass with my bare hands and I'm hardly the strongest person in the world. The average assault rifle with armor piercing bullets (as we use today to shoot body armor using enemies) wouldn't likely have a problem with it, nice burst aimed at the hearts (IE center of mass) and the marine is dead or crippled without his armor.

With his armor that's an entirely different story. Small arms would have a hard time getting through that. An armor piercing bullet might foul up a joint if it hit in the right spot, but hitting a plate it'd likely just ricochet off.

Brother Coa... of course. Bad luck does happen. While Gauss weaponry glances here and there during Fall of Damnos, there are times when it outright kills and vaporizes.

Overall... SM's are pretty bad dudes. Not immortal, not invincible... but super badass.

Melissia wrote:

riplikash wrote:I honestly doubt a .32 could penetrate a space marines re-enforced skeleton.

It wouldn't have to. Marines have eyes that can be shot to.

Then yes, a pencil is an incredibly deadly weapon. No wait that is silly. A weapon that his to hit you right in the eye is useless. I'm not saying marines are invincible, just that even unarmored small calibre weapons are useless against them.

Marine ribs have been compared to fused brass or something. I can bend brass with my bare hands and I'm hardly the strongest person in the world. The average assault rifle with armor piercing bullets (as we use today to shoot body armor using enemies) wouldn't likely have a problem with it, nice burst aimed at the hearts (IE center of mass) and the marine is dead or crippled without his armor.

You know there kinds of brass, right? Brass was used for armor and weapons for thousands of years, you really can't bend regular brass with your bare hands.

And I specifically said he would be impervious to small caliber weapons and pistols, and that that was very useful. I'm not sure why you are bringing up high caliber, armor piercing weaponry to counter that.

The point was it is easy for him to incapacitate you, and hard for you to incapacitate him. Using the same weapons you are down if you get hit in the leg, arm, stomach, or really, just about anywhere. You have to hit him numerous times in a vital spot. If you don't take out both of the hearts or the head, or fill him with so much lead he begins to fall apart, he is going to keep fighting. He only has to hit you once. That is a pretty huge advantage, hence why I said he was a monster even without his armor. I was not arguing he was invincible.

lol Brass.

Their bones are fused with ceramic. And the rib cage is fused together... no more open spots between ribs. Becomes a solid mass.

IronSnake wrote:Brother Coa... of course. Bad luck does happen. While Gauss weaponry glances here and there during Fall of Damnos, there are times when it outright kills and vaporizes.

Overall... SM's are pretty bad dudes. Not immortal, not invincible... but super badass.

They are Humanity finest, our right hand of Justice, our unbreakable warriors and our biggest hope. They are symbol of our strength and real fury of our race.
They can die to, but not before they take large groups of enemies with them ( disregarding "Ultramrines the Movie" and Marines dying like Guardsman ). And boy, they can surely bring doom with them as well.