What modern weapons could kill a Space Marine?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Steel Angel**

Well to be honest it wouldn't be our fire power that would beat them it would be our tactics.

We would adapt faster then they would. We would steal their tech and make our own or something like it. While super tough they are very predictable on how they fight and we would use that against them.

we have no problems making,changing, or using diff. tech like they would.

Heck the bait ambush alone would do nasty stuff to them.

I'm more worried about an IG army the SM.

Where a chapter my hurt us we would beat them I think. But a Full blow IG Army that I don;'t know about.

**IronSnake**

I agree with that. And yeah I saw clips of that Ultramarines CG movie... it looked terrible. SM and CSM's falling after taking just a few bolter rounds. lol

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Steel Angel wrote:Well to be honest it wouldn't be our fire power that would beat them it would be our tactics.

We would adapt faster then they would. We would steal their tech and make our own or something like it. While super tough they are very predictable on how they fight and we would use that against them.

we have no problems making,changing, or using diff. tech like they would.

Heck the bait ambush alone would do nasty stuff to them.

I'm more worried about an IG army the SM.

Where a chapter my hurt us we would beat them I think. But a Full blow IG Army that I don;'t know about.

So wait... wait. Let me get this straight. We could defeat Space Marines but have a hard time with IG. IG who usually count on SM's coming to the rescue when the sh*t really hits the fan?

**Melissia**

IronSnake wrote:lol Brass.

Their bones are fused with ceramic. And the rib cage is fused together... no more open spots between ribs. Becomes a solid mass.

Not entirely fused together. If that was the case they'd have very limited movement.

**riplikash**

Steel Angel wrote:Well to be honest it wouldn't be our fire power that would beat them it would be our tactics.

We would adapt faster then they would. We would steal their tech and make our own or something like it. While super tough they are very predictable on how they fight and we would use that against them.

we have no problems making,changing, or using diff. tech like they would.

Heck the bait ambush alone would do nasty stuff to them.

I'm more worried about an IG army the SM.

Where a chapter my hurt us we would beat them I think. But a Full blow IG Army that I don;'t know about.

Huh? Reverse engineering...doesn't work like that. This is a huge pet peeve of mine, but I'll try not to bite your head off. Imagine if a roman found a computer. Could he reverse engineer it? Obviously not. Imagine if Einstein discovered one. He still could not reverse engineer it. If someone in 1980 found a modern computer, they probably STILL could not reverse engineer it. You can only reverse engineer things one or two steps removed from what you already have. We don't have any kind of foundation for understanding imperial tech. It uses biological computers, crystaline analogue circuits, and other technobabel. We don't have the theories in place to even begin to understand it.

Again, pet peeve, sorry. But reverse engineering is one of the most ignorant, over used tropes in sci fi today.

As for tactics, they have, literally, ten thousand years of experience fighting civilizations like ours. The space marines were DESIGNED to fight civilizations like ours. And...we are going to adapt faster and have better tactics?

They are not predictable in how they fight at all, except in the very worst fluff. They are extremely flexible. Each marine has decades of wartime experience, if not centuries. Our best solders have 5 years real war experience tops.

I don't even know where you came up with the ambush doing nasty stuff to them, ambushes are lazy 40k authors favorite things to talk about, it has to be the most over used tactic in 40k literature. Why exactly would they be unprepared for this?

**daveNYC**

Brother Coa wrote:
daveNYC wrote:
In those cases though, they're talking about taking out the local PDF. And in 40k, PDFs are about as lethal as a stoner frat after a one week spring break in Jamaica.

This is true to some point. PDF strength depends on world in question. Most of them just serve several years as PDF troopers and never see conflict in life.
Other PDF are elite troops that are even better then some Guard Regiments.
We would be real challenge to Marines since we didn't have a day in past century without a war. And we wage wars occasionally when we are bored, meaning that we are always in top form.

An alternate point of view is that we would get crumped pretty good, since most of the major armed forces on Earth are at the top of the food chain regarding technology, weaponry, air power, etc. Put them up against the end results of 38,000 years of research into warfare and it'd be interesting to see what happens.

**BlapBlapBlap**

I would say an Air to Ground missile from a Harrier might just be able to kill him.

Then again, has anybody said the H-Bomb?

**Steel Angel**

Coming to the rescue from deamons nids stuff like that. Plus the IG our us but with better weapons. If the SM attack we would know right of ok there not human lets no fight them like they are.

The IG we would fight as if their just like us till it was to late.

Plus SM got the bigger troops

IGs got the bigger toys

I rather face a Predator then a Leman Russ any day

Plus 1000 SM or 1,000,000 IG to face even if the said one Marine is worth 100 IG troops

**AlmightyWalrus**

Brother Coa wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:Apparently in the Grey Knights Omnibus, some Grey Knights fight some humans with medieval weaponry.
One of the Grey Knights is killed by a normal sword.
Apparently. Haven't read it myself.

It's like 25 Grey Knights (if that, certainly not much more at least) versus an entire medieval army. Only instead of horses, most cavalrymen ride giant lizards called Tharr that are the size of a rhino (the animal, not the vehicle) and can chomp a normal person's head off just like that. And they lost ONE guy. In an ambush by said army, when the army was charging downhill.

**riplikash**

Steel Angel wrote:Coming to the rescue from deamons nids stuff like that. Plus the IG our us but with better weapons. If the SM attack we would know right of ok there not human lets no fight them like they are.

The IG we would fight as if their just like us till it was to late.

Plus SM got the bigger troops

IGs got the bigger toys

I rather face a Predator then a Leman Russ any day

Plus 1000 SM or 1,000,000 IG to face even if the said one Marine is worth 100 IG troops

Why it is almost like the IG is some sort of front line military while the SM are a special forces organization!

I do agree that the IG would have an easier time conquering us than a SM chapter, just like the army is better at conquering than the Navy SEALS. The IG has bigger toys for the same reason the army does.

But the SM are still going to mess us up, just like the SEALS do, most likely in preparation for the IG to occupy us.

**BlapBlapBlap**

Also, any weapon really can harm a SM. If you pull off a strong hit in the armour joins, they will feel it.

**Brother Coa**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:Apparently in the Grey Knights Omnibus, some Grey Knights fight some humans with medieval weaponry.
One of the Grey Knights is killed by a normal sword.
Apparently. Haven't read it myself.

It's like 25 Grey Knights (if that, certainly not much more at least) versus an entire medieval army. Only instead of horses, most cavalrymen ride giant lizards called Tharr that are the size of a rhino (the animal, not the vehicle) and can chomp a normal person's head off just like that. And they lost ONE guy. In an ambush by said army, when the army was charging downhill.

Still...kill by a primitives. The most elite Marine in the Imperium. Fail.

**Steel Angel**

riplikash wrote:
Steel Angel wrote:Well to be honest it wouldn't be our fire power that would beat them it would be our tactics.

Huh? Reverse engineering...doesn't work like that. This is a huge pet peeve of mine, but I'll try not to bite your head off. Imagine if a roman found a computer. Could he reverse engineer it? Obviously not. Imagine if Einstein discovered one. He still could not reverse engineer it. If someone in 1980 found a modern computer, they probably STILL could not reverse engineer it. You can only reverse engineer things one or two steps removed from what you already have. We don't have any kind of foundation for understanding imperial tech. It uses biological computers, crystaline analogue circuits, and other technobabel. We don't have the theories in place to even begin to understand it.

Again, pet peeve, sorry. But reverse engineering is one of the most ignorant, over used tropes in sci fi today.

As for tactics, they have, literally, ten thousand years of experience fighting civilizations like ours. The space marines were DESIGNED to fight civilizations like ours. And...we are going to adapt faster and have better tactics?

They are not predictable in how they fight at all, except in the very worst fluff. They are extremely flexible. Each marine has decades of wartime experience, if not centuries. Our best solders have 5 years real war experience tops.

I don't even know where you came up with the ambush doing nasty stuff to them, ambushes are lazy 40k authors favorite things to talk about, it has to be the most over used tactic in 40k literature. Why exactly would they be unprepared for this?

Ever read the world war books by turttle dove. Try an ambush like this " send in a troops to protect a big target say norrad .SM drop pob down to capture it. blow the nuke the you set there"

**vodo40k**

As a response to the question I would say anything above 50cal would do the job. In the fluff marines are able to shrug off an odd bolter shell but cant stand up to a continuous hale. If a 50cal round from most snipers were to hit him in the chest plate say, it would probably stop the round but the marine would deffinatly be staggered. If he was bathed in fire from a 50cal machine gun or hit in the neck he's a dead man.

In regards to the "invasion" question (again), a single marine chapter would not be able to take modern earth. In the great crusade era when most of the said conquering was done you would ideally have several thousand marines from a few different legions supported by several million imperial army troops.
Again it all depends on the type of invasion they are going for. If they dont care about preserving infrastructure, just EMP the planet from orbit and its a walkover (why dont aliens ever do this in Sci Fi?).

**Steel Angel**

riplikash wrote:
Steel Angel wrote:Coming to the rescue from deamons nids stuff like that. Plus the IG our us but with better weapons. If the SM attack we would know right of ok there not human lets no fight them like they are.

The IG we would fight as if their just like us till it was to late.

Plus SM got the bigger troops

IGs got the bigger toys

I rather face a Predator then a Leman Russ any day

Plus 1000 SM or 1,000,000 IG to face even if the said one Marine is worth 100 IG troops

Why it is almost like the IG is some sort of front line military while the SM are a special forces organization!

I do agree that the IG would have an easier time conquering us than a SM chapter, just like the army is better at conquering than the Navy SEALS. The IG has bigger toys for the same reason the army does.

But the SM are still going to mess us up, just like the SEALS do, most likely in preparation for the IG to occupy us.

My point SM are shock troops and special forces. You don't use them to take a planet you use them to take out Norrad.

**riplikash**

Steel Angel wrote:
Ever read the world war books by turttle dove. Try an ambush like this " send in a troops to protect a big target say norrad .SM drop pob down to capture it. blow the nuke the you set there"

So...your saying our scary tactics that would totally demolish them is killing thousands of our own troops and infrastructure. Uh, yay us?

That is assuming they have no military intelligence, can't detect nukes with their advanced sensor systems, we can limit the targets enough to know where they will attack, and we are willing to rig all of these important places with nukes. Oh, and they have to commit all their forces to this one strike, because it isn't going to work twice. And lets not even consider the morale issues or political fallout.

And lets hope they aren't attacking military command, civilian centers, parlament, the white house, etc. Because then we would sure have egg on our face.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be mean, but that is a crap tactic, not a creative one. It doesn't work on intelligent enemies, only in stories, where the author can control the actions of both sides.

**The Crusader**

An AC-130U Spectre Gunship Should do the job.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=AC+130+motivational&hl=en&gbv=2&biw=1366&bih=590&tbm=isch&tbnid=xUBLL2kMX7C50M:&imgrefurl=http://www.southcoastcommodores.com.au/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D18%26t%3D1499&docid=evfT2AeS4MZPeM&imgurl=http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/kahmikahze/AC130Gunship.png&w=650&h=520&ei=nhoGT9zBJImVOpuxiboB&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=612&vpy=111&dur=989&hovh=201&hovw=251&tx=89&ty=85&sig=117077724413561472474&page=1&tbnh=121&tbnw=155&start=0&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0

Pretty much explains it

**BeRzErKeR**

BlapBlapBlap wrote:Also, any weapon really can harm a SM. If you pull off a strong hit in the armour joins, they will feel it.

Uh. . . no.

Put it this way. An Ork, your average Ork, is very likely just about as strong as the strongest man in the world. He is born with the reflexes, skill, and intuitive knowledge of a master hand-to-hand fighter, and only get better as they get older. An average Ork is armed with a pistol so large, firing a bullet so heavy, that a human would very likely shatter their wrists if they tried to fire it, and a sharpened blade long and broad enough that a human would have trouble carrying it around, let alone swinging it with any kind of effective stroke, for any length of time. An enraged Ork is perfectly capable of cutting an unarmored human in half, bones and all. With one hand.

Space Marines kill these monsters on a regular basis. Because they are tougher, stronger, and faster, armed with weapons capable of blowing their inhumanly-tough bodies apart, and protected by armor tough enough to shed bullets that would blast right through modern 'bulletproof' materials like a knife through paper.

**riplikash**

Steel Angel wrote:
My point SM are shock troops and special forces. You don't use them to take a planet you use them to take out Norrad.

I agree, and I said as much in my second to last paragraph.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Brother Coa wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:Apparently in the Grey Knights Omnibus, some Grey Knights fight some humans with medieval weaponry.
One of the Grey Knights is killed by a normal sword.
Apparently. Haven't read it myself.

It's like 25 Grey Knights (if that, certainly not much more at least) versus an entire medieval army. Only instead of horses, most cavalrymen ride giant lizards called Tharr that are the size of a rhino (the animal, not the vehicle) and can chomp a normal person's head off just like that. And they lost ONE guy. In an ambush by said army, when the army was charging downhill.

Still...kill by a primitives. The most elite Marine in the Imperium. Fail.

They're drowned in bodies until they can't fight back because the pressure of the enemy corpses is too big, and they still only lose one to the dinosaur-riding Chaos worshippers. It's not so much the "primitives" riding the beasts as the beasts themselves.

That one scene is what is responsible for me hating Purifiers BTW, Cleansing Flame is clearly Holocaust ripped off and given to something else.

**DeffDred**

Uh. . . no.

Uh... yes.

Several stories involve barbarian humans getting marines in the eye with a lucky strike.

Marines bleed. If it bleeds we can kill it.

**riplikash**

The Crusader wrote:An AC-130U Spectre Gunship Should do the job.

Pretty much explains it

But...the Imperium has similar craft which are much tougher and better armed. It can take an hour to get these into the air and within firing range. The Imperium will have air superiority.

I mean, yeah, if it is there already and ready and the Imperium doesn't call in any air support, sure it could kill a marine. But that is like saying light cavalry is an effective way to attack a modern military. Sure in ideal circumstances, if they got into melee range at full change, they could be very effective. But there is so much more too fighting a modern military than just being able to technically kill someone.

**BlapBlapBlap**

BeRzErKeR wrote:
BlapBlapBlap wrote:Also, any weapon really can harm a SM. If you pull off a strong hit in the armour joins, they will feel it.

Uh. . . no.

Put it this way. An Ork, your average Ork, is very likely just about as strong as the strongest man in the world. He is born with the reflexes, skill, and intuitive knowledge of a master hand-to-hand fighter, and only get better as they get older. An average Ork is armed with a pistol so large, firing a bullet so heavy, that a human would very likely shatter their wrists if they tried to fire it, and a sharpened blade long and broad enough that a human would have trouble carrying it around, let alone swinging it with any kind of effective stroke, for any length of time. An enraged Ork is perfectly capable of cutting an unarmored human in half, bones and all. With one hand.

Space Marines kill these monsters on a regular basis. Because they are tougher, stronger, and faster, armed with weapons capable of blowing their inhumanly-tough bodies apart, and protected by armor tough enough to shed bullets that would blast right through modern 'bulletproof' materials like a knife through paper.

Wait, so an axe in the unarmoured join covering their neck has no chance of killing them? Think about it. Even if they were armoured by a tank, the tank would have weak spots. A good blow will harm a marine if struck at the right place with enough strength. Guardsmen can kill marines in assault, and they're regular humans. So

.

**riplikash**

DeffDred wrote:
Uh. . . no.

Uh... yes.

Several stories involve barbarian humans getting marines in the eye with a lucky strike.

Marines bleed. If it bleeds we can kill it.

They actually don't bleed, at least not for long. They clot within seconds. That's one of the problems.

And, again, never argued marines were invincible, but if you have to rely on hitting him in the eyes and he can kill you by hitting you anywhere, you are screwed. A weapon that has to hit someone in the eye is not a dangerouse, effective military weapon. Pencils aren't dangerous weapons. Yes someone with sufficient skill could kill you with a pencil. That is not a testiment to the killing power of the pencil.

**Melissia**

BeRzErKeR wrote:Because they are tougher

Orks are tougher than Space Marines, actually, and can easily survive far tougher injuries than any Marine can. Such as decapitation.

BeRzErKeR wrote:stronger

Not really, certainly not to any great degree. Orks are equally capable of grabbing a man's hand and crushing it like like a grape. In fact, Orks were considered so strong that in second edition Ork choppas were given a bonus to penetrating armor because of the raw brute strength of the Ork.

Though I will agree that Marines tend to have finer control over their muscles.

BeRzErKeR wrote:and faster

Arguably, I suppose, but not really faster than he average combat veteran human. The black carapace does not make marines lightning fast, it merely makes using their power armor more intuitive, and it is not the only means to do so in 40k (Inquisition, Mechanicus, and Sisters can have similar results). Orks have an instinctive sense for combat and especially melee, and the Ork's chance of landing a blow against a marine and vice versa is roughly equivalent in both tabletop and the FFG roleplays. They understand combat like humans know how to breathe, so one can easily underestimate an Ork's speed.

BeRzErKeR wrote:armed with weapons capable of blowing their inhumanly-tough bodies apart

An Ork is armed with a weapon that does an equivalent amount of damage. An unarmored marine being hit by a shoota is likely to be splattered against the ground behind him.

BeRzErKeR wrote:, and protected by armor tough enough to shed bullets that would blast right through modern 'bulletproof' materials like a knife through paper.

This is the only part of your statement that isn't arguable. Power armor IS quite good.

**BeRzErKeR**

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Wait, so an axe in the unarmoured join covering their neck has no chance of killing them? Think about it. Even if they were armoured by a tank, the tank would have weak spots. A good blow will harm a marine if struck at the right place with enough strength. Guardsmen can kill marines in assault, and they're regular humans. So .

The key is "with enough strength".

I just really doubt that in any but the strangest circumstance, most small-arms or hand weapons would HAVE 'enough strength'.

And yes, BL loves to kill Marines off. They want to write about Marines because Marines are 40ks poster-boys, but you can't really have a dramatic war story if none of the protagonists are ever threatened.

**riplikash**

BlapBlapBlap wrote:Wait, so an axe in the unarmoured join covering their neck has no chance of killing them? Think about it. Even if they were armoured by a tank, the tank would have weak spots. A good blow will harm a marine if struck at the right place with enough strength. Guardsmen can kill marines in assault, and they're regular humans. So .

Firstly, their joints aren't unarmored, they are less armored, and they can take the average axe blow fairly easily.

Secondly, CC in the game does not represent stabbing with knives, it represents all matter of close quarters combat, cinematic and regular. They may be stuffing grenades in their faces, or shooting into holes blown in their armor during battle. You can't use TT rules to compare fuff.

Yes a good blow will harm them in the right place, no one ever, ever denied this, I don't know why people keep bringing it up. But it is still a linebacker vs a ten year old child. Sure he could get lucky. He's still screwed.

**DeffDred**

Pencils aren't dangerous weapons.

The pen is mightier than the sword.

**Brother Coa**

riplikash wrote:
The Crusader wrote:An AC-130U Spectre Gunship Should do the job.

Pretty much explains it

But...the Imperium has similar craft which are much tougher and better armed. It can take an hour to get these into the air and within firing range. The Imperium will have air superiority.

No they don't. Not even one plane in Imperium's armory matched the use and firepower of AC-130 Spectre Gunship. Imperium only have fighters and bombers. Not flying ground supporting fortresses.
"The Imperium will have air superiority." - similar thing was told to Guardsman on Taros, oh well....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeffDred wrote:
Pencils aren't dangerous weapons.

The pen is mightier than the sword.

QFT, sword can kill you but professor with a pen can make your whole life miserable. And I know that from personal experiences.

**Melissia**

riplikash wrote:no one ever, ever denied this, I don't know why people keep bringing it up

Sure they have.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:AC-130 Spectre Gunship.

Pfeh. Use a real aircraft-- go with the A10,

**Brother Coa**

Melissia wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:Because they are tougher
Orks are tougher than Space Marines, actually, and can easily survive far tougher injuries than any Marine can. Such as decapitation.

BeRzErKeR wrote:stronger
Not really, certainly not to any great degree. Orks are equally capable of grabbing a man's hand and crushing it like like a grape. In fact, Orks were considered so strong that in second edition Ork choppas were given a bonus to penetrating armor because of the raw brute strength of the Ork.

Though I will agree that Marines tend to have finer control over their muscles.
BeRzErKeR wrote:and faster
Arguably, I suppose, but not really faster than he average combat veteran human. The black carapace does not make marines lightning fast, it merely makes using their power armor more intuitive, and it is not the only means to do so in 40k (Inquisition, Mechanicus, and Sisters can have similar results). Orks have an instinctive sense for combat and especially melee, and the Ork's chance of landing a blow against a marine and vice versa is roughly equivalent in both tabletop and the FFG roleplays. They understand combat like humans know how to breathe, so one can easily underestimate an Ork's speed.

BeRzErKeR wrote:armed with weapons capable of blowing their inhumanly-tough bodies apart
An Ork is armed with a weapon that does an equivalent amount of damage. An unarmored marine being hit by a shoota is likely to be splattered against the ground behind him.

BeRzErKeR wrote:, and protected by armor tough enough to shed bullets that would blast right through modern 'bulletproof' materials like a knife through paper.
This is the only part of your statement that isn't arguable. Power armor IS quite good.

Orks are far superior to normal Human.
But Marines should be equal to Orks when we compare them.