Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

DAaddict wrote:

The problem with 35 pt termies is say we take 8 of them with a CML. Even at 35 pts we are talking 300 points. What do I get for 300 pts? 16 S4 shots and 2 S8 shots or 2 S4 small blast shots.
For that same 300 points I could take 10 sternguard with two plasma cannons. It is going to do more firepower wise and admittedly less of a CC threat however with the sternguard ammo I have more options - no cover save, AP3, 30" range and two plasma cannons will hopefully kill any CC threat before it gets there. To me, the choice is going to be pure CC (TH/SS termies) or pure firepower (sternguard) regular termies just lose out. Now it is a different story for GK, they are putting out S5 shots, have a 4++ save or higher initiative not to mention they are a troop choice.

Why take 8? This is a shooting unit, the CC ability granted by the powerfists is really only there as a backup in case something hard to kill hits one of your squishy units nearby. T4 2+/5++ infantry don't need 7 ablative wounds on their missile launcher. Take 5 with a CML; that comes in to under 200 points, which makes it a cheap, flexible unit that's capable of performing many different tasks.

The Termies are significantly more survivable than the sternguard, with both a better armor save and an invulnerable save they can take against anything that won't let them use armor. Hit 5 Sternguard with a battlecannon, you're losing at least 4; hit 5 Termies with a battlecannon, you might lose one. Killing Termies requires either anti-tank weapons or torrents of small-arms fire, and it's hard to use small-arms against a unit that's walking in the back of the enemy formation. So if they're getting shot at at all, they're drawing fire away from your tanks. The only thing that scares Termies in the backfield is a plasma cannon, and even against that it's easy to spread out so it can only nail one model per shot, particularly when there are only 5 models in the unit.

Just had another idea: Give Tactical Terminators Special Issue Ammunition. They're Veterans too. All of a sudden you'd have a tough unit with lots of firepower.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Just had another idea: Give Tactical Terminators Special Issue Ammunition. They're Veterans too. All of a sudden you'd have a tough unit with lots of firepower.

This is the best solution I can think of. For free, just give them SOME form of special stormbolter ammo, it would be a great balancing factor.

I think Terms in the normal SM codex should get a list of weapons like the GK terms do. That would help people not take SS so much, when you get cool stuff like Frost Blades or something, maybe even a Poison weapon, or a relay to call in one artillery strike.

I would be happy with a term squad with Plasma Guns and cannons.

Like Berzerker said, I've found the best use for Termies in my mainly shooty, Troop-heavy SM army is a 5-man squad with CML and sometimes Assault Cannon, which comes in around 200 points. I typically have them sit behind my bigger power armor squads as counter-attackers, able to unload with their guns or fists on anything that comes too close. As effective as this is, it does seem to go against the fluff and I like Walrus's idea of giving them some kind of special ammo/bonus to make them able to truly spearhead attacks.

Tell you what Make TH/SS 100 points but make the storm shield 2++ in CC and 4++ at range haha then EVERYONE would get at least one.

I really like the special issue ammo idea, but it seems a little off to me. I imagine terminators as moving walls of death putting out round after round of bolter shells, not fiddling with their storm bolter to select special rounds for different targets.

I think there should be a combination of things: reduce the points cost of storm bolter termies by 5 points, and increase their firepower. I want to see a way to crank out more rounds, like a massed firepower rule that applies specifically to termies with storm bolters:

For every roll of a 6 to hit, take one additional shot. Continue doing this until no more 6's to hit are rolled.

Similar to Kharn's close combat rules. I don't want to see beefed-up Sternguard, I want to see a freaking wall of lead mowing down enemies before the termies' implacable advance.

Another simpler way of doing this is probably to give all terminators +1 BS and leave the points the same. Just chalk it up to advanced targeters. Five termies with one assault cannon are more impressive when almost every shot hits.

Why am I the only person who sees the use of Regular Shooty Terminators as they currently are? I mean, I played an entire Kill Team campaign, and every time I swapped my Terminators to TH/SS they died horribly, compared to my Shooty Terminators who mowed EVERYTHING down before moving on.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:I really like the special issue ammo idea, but it seems a little off to me. I imagine terminators as moving walls of death putting out round after round of bolter shells, not fiddling with their storm bolter to select special rounds for different targets.

The solution is to give them one type of special ammunition that they use all the time. Besides, the "fiddling" is easily solvable: Deathwatch bolters have ammunition selection that can choose from three different clips, I'd assume that Terminator Storm Bolters all have something similar. Sternguard probably do too, come to think of it.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Assault Termies aren't undercosted or overpowered, honestly. They're just about right.

Look at them. 40 points buys you a single wound, a 2+/3++ save, a Thunder Hammer, and a statline that's straight 4s across the board. They're NOT that impressive for the money. Against mass small arms they die almost as easily as MEQs, and they cost nearly three times as much. They have no ranged weapons and are slow, so they need a transport to get into assault; but the only transport they can take is a Land Raider, which ups the cost of the unit by 250 points.

People think Assault Termies are overpowered because what they do is very, very uncommon. Most powerful assault units are bullies, designed to mulch lots of weak units; TH/SS Termies are not. They're designed specifically to kill OTHER DEATHSTARS.

ID weapons. High saves. Few attacks. TH/SS Termies are supposed to be out there counter-charging and massacring high-cost, multi-wound models after they attack your Tac squads or support elements. 30 Ork Boyz will eat 5 TH/SS Termies for breakfast; 5 Nobz will die to them.

I think I do concur that Tactical Termies are a bit overcosted; however, giving them a re-rollable 2+ save is not the answer. Make them 35 ppm, that might do it.

Very well said!

I'd agree with either making them around 35 points or giving them a bit more survivability to make up for them being the same cost as Assault Terminators. The problem then though becomes Lightning Claw Assault Terminators becoming less survivable and, thus, less worth their points.

I'd say make Terminators and Assault Terminators 35 points and allow Assault Terminators to upgrade to have Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield at a cost of +5 points per model upgraded. Additionally, remove the "every 5 models" restriction to their weapons, even fluff-wise this never made sense. This will allow a 5-man Terminator Squad to take two special weapons right off the bat.

Or, better yet, just merge the two squads and give them varying options. In any case, Terminators as a whole need a rework regardless of whether they keep them two squads or mash them into one.

Deathwing- stuck with 5-man squads has the flexibility. Yet since the errata, what I am seeing is 4 or 5 termies with TH/SS and one getting a CML. Loganwing is the one odd duck. Due to the high cost of TH/SS and the flexibility of wolfclaws, you tend to see less or no SS. Given the 0 cost difference, the TH/SS terminator has become the norm. Due to flexibility and reduced cost, sternguard will beat out standard termies. Not saying they are bad but a standard termie is - in both cases - the second best selection.

I would argue that 40 pts is about right for a terminator but rather than reducing it, make the TH/SS cost more. Say +5 pts. That will give people some pause before doing that. The other option is to mellow out the SS save.
I don't know what they were thinking when the turned a SS from 4++ in HTH only into a 3++ everywhere save. To me making it a +1 to already existing save or 4++ universal would have been enough to make it a debatable choice between 2 LC or a standard termie. 3++ just makes it into the default best buy.

Yeah, I'd be happy with any of the following changes...

1) Give standard Terminator Squads less restrictive options (Terminator Squads in the fluff are supposed to be 5-man squads, after all) and/or give them some unique special rules to make them more appealing.

2) Make Assault Terminators start off with a pair of lightning claws and then make them pay +5 points to upgrade to a thunder hammer and storm shield.

Or, my personal favorite...

3) Merge the two into a single unit, have them have a base cost of around 32-35 points, start with a Power Weapon and Storm Bolter, and allow them to upgrade into whatever other weapons are available (+5 Points for a Storm Shield, +5 Points for a Thunder Hammer, for example).

What about just letting 5-man Termie squads take two assault cannons/CMLs, and reducing the cost of each to 25 points? Allowing them to swap out their Power Fists for Power Weapons at no cost would also be a minor but effective buff.

Then you can have a 300 point unit with as much firepower as a Devastator squad with TEQ statlines, and striking at I4 with PW attacks if they're charged. That would be a unit worth taking.

Mayhaps...

When shot with ap- weapons- 2+ save, 2+ re-roll.
when shot with ap6 weapons- 2+ save, 3+ re-roll.
when shot with ap5 weapons- 2+ save, 4+ re-roll.
when shot with ap4 weapons- 2+ save, 5+ re-roll.
when shot with ap3 weapons- 2+ save, 6+ re-roll.
when shot with ap2 weapons- no save, no re-roll.
when shot with ap1 weapons- no save, no re-roll.

With, of course a hefty point increase. I think there are better answers though.

Also, in celebration of my 1,000th post, i'm changing my avatar! Woooo!

loota boy wrote:

Also, in celebration of my 1,000th post, i'm changing my avatar! Woooo!

Is that Orkspector Gadget?

WawawawaWA! OOO Ooo...

Orkspector gubbinz thankee very much. Found it with a google search and just fell in love with it. Kudos to whoever made it.

As I mentioned in the other thread, nerfing TH/SS Termies will not cause people to take LC or Tactical Termies. However, I think you can encourage LC Termies and possibly Tactical Termies to be taken by making the Crux a 4++. This removes the need for Termies to get cover and makes the SS less of a upgrade. That or reduce the cost of Tactical Termies and/or their weapon upgrades. If I could take a 200 point Tactical Term squad with CML, I would be all over that.

The reason Tac Terms and Assault Termies are the same price is because no one with competitive expieriance would never take Assault Termies. This game isn't designed for competition, just as a game.

Gornall wrote:As I mentioned in the other thread, nerfing TH/SS Termies will not cause people to take LC or Tactical Termies. However, I think you can encourage LC Termies and possibly Tactical Termies to be taken by making the Crux a 4++. This removes the need for Termies to get cover and makes the SS less of a upgrade. That or reduce the cost of Tactical Termies and/or their weapon upgrades. If I could take a 200 point Tactical Term squad with CML, I would be all over that.

Or just give the shooty termies back double CMLs at 5 people and tank hunters. Templars are more or less the only army that takes Tac Termies over assault termies, and we have the best Assault Termies in the game!

Was talking to a friend recently and he had another interesting idea: why not just make Storm Bolters better? He said that even ratcheting up their number of attacks from Assault 2 to Assault 3 could very well do it (in his opinion, at least).

But you can't just make storm bolters in general better. Then GK get a huge boost, which would REALLY throw things out of balance.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Well, at least call them something different... It'd be kinda silly otherwise.

Instead of trying to overpower everything, you could just not charge the things that kill your precious termies. Choppa the Dakka, Dakka the Choppa. Or maybe ther tactics you are using just fail against said punch-through-armor models. Or just obliterate the things that kill the termies. Termies are good, if you use them right. Sounds like the majority here is trying to make up for something. No offense intended, but buffing up terminators is not the answer...
Though it would be cool to allow Terminators the ability to do a "Shield bash" which would act like a grabb-stikk. Causing one model in base contact to lose an attack to minimum of 1. OR shield bash makes one adjacent model (per termy) Initiative 1 when the termies charge. Could be a decent idea instead of making them walking tanks....
My ounce or two,
DK

Da Kommizzar wrote:Instead of trying to overpower everything, you could just not charge the things that kill your precious termies. Choppa the Dakka, Dakka the Choppa. Or maybe ther tactics you are using just fail against said punch-through-armor models. Or just obliterate the things that kill the termies. Termies are good, if you use them right. Sounds like the majority here is trying to make up for something. No offense intended, but buffing up terminators is not the answer...
Though it would be cool to allow Terminators the ability to do a "Shield bash" which would act like a grabb-stikk. Causing one model in base contact to lose an attack to minimum of 1. OR shield bash makes one adjacent model (per termy) Initiative 1 when the termies charge. Could be a decent idea instead of making them walking tanks....
My ounce or two,
DK

Or you could, you know, read the thread and realise that we're talking about tactical terminators as opposed to TH/SS terminators...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Da Kommizzar wrote:Instead of trying to overpower everything, you could just not charge the things that kill your precious termies. Choppa the Dakka, Dakka the Choppa. Or maybe ther tactics you are using just fail against said punch-through-armor models. Or just obliterate the things that kill the termies. Termies are good, if you use them right. Sounds like the majority here is trying to make up for something. No offense intended, but buffing up terminators is not the answer...
Though it would be cool to allow Terminators the ability to do a "Shield bash" which would act like a grabb-stikk. Causing one model in base contact to lose an attack to minimum of 1. OR shield bash makes one adjacent model (per termy) Initiative 1 when the termies charge. Could be a decent idea instead of making them walking tanks....
My ounce or two,
DK

Or you could, you know, read the thread and realize that we're talking about tactical terminators as opposed to TH/SS terminators...

^ This.

Storm Shields = 3++ in combat, and a +1 to existing inulnerable saves out of combat. If the model does not have an invulnerable save, it gets a 5++.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Too be honest guys Assault Termies spend half the game in a Land Raider anyways so lossing the 3++ to shooting isn't horrible

I've been lurking the Dakka Forums for months and playing only a short time but I do have thoughts on the 3++ save of the SS. I picked up codex space marines (yeah yeah) and I've come to really like their ability to be tailored to whatever.

Here's why I don't take tactical terminators:
for 200 points you get 5 dudes in 2+/5++ armor, they fire assault 2 storm bolters.

For about the same cost I could take a tactical squad with a transport, which while they don't get an invuln save if you put them in cover they then have a better than 5++ save to anything except cover ignoring weapons. On top of that they're scoring, get a free heavy weapon and special weapon with relatively cheap options for modification.

In the end tactical terminators attempt to compete shot for shot with a ten man tactical squad. They put out practically the same level of firepower in my experience. If termies could take 2 heavy weapons they would go from being tactical squad competition to a fire support role, dishing out assault cannon fire or CML death. Forcing the enemy to ignore your tactical squads while they advance or do whatever it is they decide to do that turn.

Getting back on topic; from the outside looking in I can definitely see why people would say the SS is OP. I've had several games where my TH/SS termies have single handedly allowed me to win the game with a couple friends of mine. On the other hand they're expensive for what they do, they almost require a 250 pt transport which for its cost gives you the equivolent of Heroic Intervention, and if they win combat but don't wipte a unit they don't get a sweeping advance.

That said even my drop pod sternguard list still has TH/SS terminators in it as a deterrant to assaults because that 2+/3+ save is just too good to pass up. It's already been said by More Dakka and I've been saying for a while among friends if termies had a stock 4++ invuln save they would be universally better. The SS can still provide the awesome 3++ but only in CC like older editions. This way shooty armies like guard have a better chance of killing the termies at range but still get mauled in cc as is good and proper. What are guardsmen if not body bag fillers for the emperor... or some such.

Another option is to make alternatives to assault terminators more viable. Sternguard are exactly what a balanced elite unit should be. They're definitely killable but when used properly can hold a gunline like no tomorrow or appear out of nowhere via drop pod and smoke a deathstar unit... then die pathetically in the following shooting round but hey...

Vanguard: I'm not going to go into a lot of length with vanguard but if GW wanted to make them a viable choice for Codex Space Marines make the jump packs free. 10 pts per model?! Is there any wonder why they're so rarely used? Heroic Intervention is an awesome power which I think is wasted because the entry fee just to get in the gate with Vanguard is too high. If you want to make them a potential deathstar killing unit you'll have to throw on war gear like power weapons which combined with the jump pack cost per model just isn't worth it. Take away the jump pack cost per model and now spending some pts on power weapons makes them a terror to behold. Still beholden to deep strike rules so there is still enough to go wrong that they're not broken... I lied I went into a lot of detail about vanguard.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the SS 3++ save. cheers!

Really? Make Termies more powerful?

I would kill to have something like that in my army... and you guys want more...