Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am not an IRA supporter. In school I got into fist fights over my disgust with the IRA and vocal opposition to their continued existence (I grew up in a fairly republican area of rural ireland).
However, I am able to recognise that many situations are more complicated than "terrorists bad! State good!" There was a time when the IRA achieved something worthwhile, though it is long gone. These days they are either sad maniacs or brutal drug dealers using their "patriotism" as a front for gangland crime.

But even up to my father's generation you had people getting shot at checkpoints for not-very-good-reasons (a friend of my father had his little brother shot at a checkpoint, and he was a little boy carrying a hurley stick, which they mistook for a gun). That made people really angry, I think understandably. And when you're extremely angry at one of the most powerful military machines in the world, you have limited options. You can suck it up or you can fight back, and fight back dirty.

That is why I get sad when I read posts on here that stuff like that is "inevitable in war". The peace process worked through engagement, not crackdowns and violence by either side. Kids shouldn't have to die, either way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Civil_Rights_Association
This is a reasonably alright read.
One thing that always pissed me off was bombing on the british mainland. I reckon the average English person was moderately sympathetic to the catholic cause, when they thought about it at all, before they started indiscriminately blowing them up.

In any case, most irish nationalism was constructed by the elites who wanted to gain independent rule of Ireland. They used a nationalist rhetoric to stabilise the country so that when conditions inevitably worsened on independence, people wouldn't clamour to go back to British rule.

tl,dr- this stuff is too complex to be summed up in sweeping statements, and that goes for the Taliban too imo.

Da Boss wrote:I am not an IRA supporter. In school I got into fist fights over my disgust with the IRA and vocal opposition to their continued existence (I grew up in a fairly republican area of rural ireland).
However, I am able to recognise that many situations are more complicated than "terrorists bad! State good!" There was a time when the IRA achieved something worthwhile, though it is long gone. These days they are either sad maniacs or brutal drug dealers using their "patriotism" as a front for gangland crime.
.

Wait this is still going on?

Yeah, policemen and others are still being murdered in northern ireland by dissidents who don't agree with the peace process. And the IRA men south of the border (in areas like Louth especially) have a lot of sway in terms of underworld matters.

Edit: A couple of years ago, I was in an isolated rural pub having a few pints and an old guy with an Irish Tricolour badge and collection can was going around collecting money to fund the IRA. I half suspect he was using it to buy pints himself, but I told him to feth off.

Da Boss wrote:...or brutal drug dealers using their "patriotism" as a front for gangland crime.

Ah, the "Enterprising, young rapscallions." defense. As ways of ingratiating yourself to the community go, that one is pretty good.

Frazzled wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:There is no need to hijack this thread with WW1 talk, but this needs to be settled man to man!

Either 1) We meet up for a shoot-out at the Alamo and allow me the fantasy of having pearl-handed colt single action army revolvers in my possession

or

2) We start a new thread and present evidence. Navy rules: first man to die loses! Evidence will be fine. The ball is in your court. Personally, I can't be bothered. There's football on later. Let's agree to disagree, but definetly a debate for the future.

(Remembers Colt cap and ball in "the box") How far are you from the Alamo...ok, ok we'll agree to disagree.
(is it weird that I am about to ship out about 300 rounds of .303 enfield when this comes up?)

The movie Patton neatly describes how I (and any true Scots...err American) feels about pearl handled Colts.

Frazz why are this ammunition not being shipped to me? And more importantly why/how do you have it?

This thread is awesome.. whenever the British and Americans start talking about war and patriotism the usually high value posts on dakka suddenly resemble YouTube comment fights.

Just remember though.. those of you that use the Royal "we" didn't fight in any world wars or kick anyone's asses. At the very best your grandpa did, and you are merely the saggy, soft skinned ancestors basking in the shadows of better men.

Well except me obviously. I pretty much took Helmand province on my own. True story. I killed twenty with a branch.

mattyrm wrote: This thread is awesome.. whenever the British and Americans start talking about war and patriotism the usually high value posts on dakka suddenly resemble YouTube comment fights.

Just remember though.. those of you that use the Royal "we" didn't fight in any world wars or kick anyone's asses. At the very best your grandpa did, and you are merely the saggy, soft skinned ancestors basking in the shadows of better men.

Well except me obviously. I pretty much took Helmand province on my own. True story. I killed twenty with a branch.

I believe it.

Frazzled wrote:

Muhr wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

I think the "special relationship" started when we saved your asses in World War I.

Oh for God's sake, not this again *facepalm*.

Don't you think it reflects quite badly on America that you (meaning America at the time) just sat back and watched us fight a far larger enemy for years before you bothered to get involved?

Taking on Germany without our support? You forget yourself. There were marches supporting our taking the side of Germany. After all we fought two wars with you people and there were quite a few more Germans than English in the states pre WWI. It wasn't until the Lusitania and the Zimmerman Note that you became good guys. Before that you were just..guys.

I guess what I'm trying to say is how tiresome it is to hear americans stroking their own ego's. Yes we all know how powerful your military is and yes, we all know how much clout said military packs it's just that, when talking about events that happened many, MANY moons ago, you just can't resist reminding the world and everyone in it just how marvellously superior you are to the rest of us. It's for precisely that attitude why people feel hostile to America which is a shame because most americans are lovely people (two of my ex's are from there).

Yes you AWESOME ok? We are not worthy so let that be that please.

Muhr wrote:I guess what I'm trying to say is how tiresome it is to hear americans stroking their own ego's

It is just as ridiculous to downplay the role the US played or act like the UK could have done it alone and that the US just accidently stumbled onto the end of the war. It took everyone from both sides and was a group effort; we saved each other.

Now, can we get back to making fun of politicians?

Really? Were I you I'd point out that America pre-WW1 didn't even come into the accounting of most European nations, they cared about as much about our stance as we care about Liberia's.

Da Boss wrote:Yeah, policemen and others are still being murdered in northern ireland by dissidents who don't agree with the peace process. And the IRA men south of the border (in areas like Louth especially) have a lot of sway in terms of underworld matters.

I was visiting England a few years ago looking at grad schools when those poor soldiers were murdered in Northern Ireland by the IRA. I remember going to Evensong that night and it was packed with people praying for the Troubles not to return. I am in no way a supporter of Irish Nationalists, but that doesn't mean I can't support groups of the more Orange persuasion.

mattyrm wrote:This thread is awesome.. whenever the British and Americans start talking about war and patriotism the usually high value posts on dakka suddenly resemble YouTube comment fights.

True enough their Matt! Its to bad there is a distinctly anti-Royalist strain though....

mattyrm wrote:Well except me obviously. I pretty much took Helmand province on my own. True story. I killed twenty with a branch.

Its a wonder there are any terrorists left!

Frazzled wrote:

Da Boss wrote:I am not an IRA supporter. In school I got into fist fights over my disgust with the IRA and vocal opposition to their continued existence (I grew up in a fairly republican area of rural ireland).
However, I am able to recognise that many situations are more complicated than "terrorists bad! State good!" There was a time when the IRA achieved something worthwhile, though it is long gone. These days they are either sad maniacs or brutal drug dealers using their "patriotism" as a front for gangland crime.
.

Wait this is still going on?

Absolutely, but it's not as bad as it was. There haven't been any bombings on mainland Britain for some years, but there's still a bit of violence in Northern Ireland, occasional killings. One of the more profile ones was a couple of years ago when two soldiers were shot dead when they expected to collect a pizza delivery at the gate.

What has happened is that many of those terrorists have gone legit so to speak, and now sit in government.

CT GAMER wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Surely American authorities were aware of his funding of the IRA? Presumably it wasn't seen as a problem by the US Government?

Why?

Seems like this could be a rather interesting topic of personal research.

Quickly, to the learn-o-tron!

Because terrorists are called "patriots/freedom fighters" when we support them?

i

+1 to that. A big myth is that the USA is against terrorists, dictators, and psychopaths. But we are only against terrorists, dictators, and psychopaths that are not on our side.

d-usa wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Surely American authorities were aware of his funding of the IRA? Presumably it wasn't seen as a problem by the US Government?

Why?

Seems like this could be a rather interesting topic of personal research.

Quickly, to the learn-o-tron!

Because terrorists are called "patriots/freedom fighters" when we support them?

i

+1 to that. A big myth is that the USA is against terrorists, dictators, and psychopaths. But we are only against terrorists, dictators, and psychopaths that are not on our side.

Well, yeah, the same as every country in the world. Including the UK.

AustonT wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:There is no need to hijack this thread with WW1 talk, but this needs to be settled man to man!

Either 1) We meet up for a shoot-out at the Alamo and allow me the fantasy of having pearl-handed colt single action army revolvers in my possession

or

2) We start a new thread and present evidence. Navy rules: first man to die loses! Evidence will be fine. The ball is in your court. Personally, I can't be bothered. There's football on later. Let's agree to disagree, but definetly a debate for the future.

(Remembers Colt cap and ball in "the box") How far are you from the Alamo...ok, ok we'll agree to disagree.
(is it weird that I am about to ship out about 300 rounds of .303 enfield when this comes up?)

The movie Patton neatly describes how I (and any true Scots...err American) feels about pearl handled Colts.

Frazz why are this ammunition not being shipped to me? And more importantly why/how do you have it?

Pearl? in the words of the immortal bard: "sucker please."
holding for a friend. Shipping some of it out to an interested party. Something about "Boer War II, this time its cheesy." I don't get it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mattyrm wrote: Well except me obviously. I pretty much took Helmand province on my own. True story. I killed twenty with a branch.

Wait I thought it was a roll of toilet paper. Was that Basra?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yes you AWESOME ok? We are not worthy so let that be that please.

Finally, someone understands the power of the Wienerdog side.

JEB_Stuart wrote:

mattyrm wrote:Well except me obviously. I pretty much took Helmand province on my own. True story. I killed twenty with a branch.

Its a wonder there are any terrorists left!

The beer and tea pipelines dried up and we had to call him home before he could finish :(

SilverMK2 wrote:

JEB_Stuart wrote:

mattyrm wrote:Well except me obviously. I pretty much took Helmand province on my own. True story. I killed twenty with a branch.

Its a wonder there are any terrorists left!

The beer and tea pipelines dried up and we had to call him home before he could finish :(

Truly a sad reality

.

WARORK93 wrote:

Albatross wrote:I never cease to be amazed by some of the specimens Americans see fit to elect to public office.

And people wonder why so many of us don't vote...

America: Love the country, can't stand the idiots who run it...

Caerful, you might get pepper-sprayed for that kind of hippie talk...

Frazzled wrote:

Da Boss wrote:I am not an IRA supporter. In school I got into fist fights over my disgust with the IRA and vocal opposition to their continued existence (I grew up in a fairly republican area of rural ireland).
However, I am able to recognise that many situations are more complicated than "terrorists bad! State good!" There was a time when the IRA achieved something worthwhile, though it is long gone. These days they are either sad maniacs or brutal drug dealers using their "patriotism" as a front for gangland crime.
.

Wait this is still going on?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Real_Irish_Republican_Army_actions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Continuity_Irish_Republican_Army_actions

Just look at the nonsense coming out of Peter King’s mouth. Look at his terrible understanding of the IRA, and look at his terrible, and likely to be absolutely disastrous understanding of Muslims in America, and remember what party he is from. Think about what must be going wrong in a party for a guy like Peter King to note only be supported into office, but actually promoted into a position of authority within his party.

When I talk about everything that’s going wrong with the Republican Party right now, I mean because extremely stupid, ideologically driven idiots like Peter King are being given positions of power within the party.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:Taking on Germany without our support? You forget yourself. There were marches supporting our taking the side of Germany. After all we fought two wars with you people and there were quite a few more Germans than English in the states pre WWI. It wasn't until the Lusitania and the Zimmerman Note that you became good guys. Before that you were just..guys.

Umm, the Lusitania and other boats like it were actually transporting military supplies into the UK. Because despite the protests of a largely irrelevant German minority, the sentiments of the country were entirely with Britain and her allies, leading to you directly supplying her with war time supplies in secret.

Sharing common culture and common language, as well democratic values meant a hell of a lot. Britain was never just ‘guys’, and it’s kind of ridiculous to think you would have sent a million odd men over the Atlantic to fight in the war just because of the Lusitania. You did it because you were already on Britain’s side.

Frazzled wrote:

Da Boss wrote:I am not an IRA supporter. In school I got into fist fights over my disgust with the IRA and vocal opposition to their continued existence (I grew up in a fairly republican area of rural ireland).
However, I am able to recognise that many situations are more complicated than "terrorists bad! State good!" There was a time when the IRA achieved something worthwhile, though it is long gone. These days they are either sad maniacs or brutal drug dealers using their "patriotism" as a front for gangland crime.
.

Wait this is still going on?

RIRA recently murdered a polish pizza boy for delivering a Dominos to the barracks.

Apparently dropping off a large meat feast counted as collusion with British forces.

Oh yeah, it's still going on.