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apple1988218 wrote:GK's weapons are all two-handed, I don't think they can get +1A from another CCW.

Halberds are two-handed, and don't get the +1A.

Hammers are Coarse, and don't get the +1A.

Swords are one-handed, and so when paired with a SB or other assault weapon get +1A on the charge.

NFWs don't give a 5+ Invuln, as they aren't just basic power weapons.

Incinerators can now Fire Sweep, getting them D6 automatic hits on the charge at the model's I and the weapon's S and AP. Great for GKSS, not so great for Paladins (who are now going to get 3-5 NFW attacks on the charge anyways, depending on banner and assault weapon).

Whoops, right. I was just talking about swords back there.

NFWs don't give a 5+ Invuln, as they aren't just basic power weapons.

That is illogical. If the rule is that power weapons give the wielder 5++ in CC, then NFW do this, because all NFW are power weapons. They are a sub class of power weapons

Joe Mama wrote:Whoops, right. I was just talking about swords back there.

NFWs don't give a 5+ Invuln, as they aren't just basic power weapons.

That is illogical. If the rule is that power weapons give the wielder 5++ in CC, then NFW do this, because all NFW are power weapons. They are a sub class of power weapons

Except the rule in question only grants invulns to power weapons that "don't have any other special rules." NFW obviously have other special rules.

Personally though I think that is one of the most suspect of the leaked rules, as it would be a crazy strong buff to PWs that would disproportionately buff some units over others..

The +1A from stormbolters means more to pagk than pallies.

If nemisis force swords give a 5++ in cc halberds will no longer be a must have on purifiers. Also a 5++ from swords would make purifiers far more competitive than Draigowing.

schadenfreude wrote:The +1A from stormbolters means more to pagk than pallies.

If nemisis force swords give a 5++ in cc halberds will no longer be a must have on purifiers. Also a 5++ from swords would make purifiers far more competitive than Draigowing.

As ShadarLogoth said, the 5++ is only for basic power weapons. The rule states that power weapons give a 5++ only if they have no other special rules.

The choice between swords and halberds is still going to be a bit tougher than before, as swords will allow an extra +1A on the charge with SBs.

ShadarLogoth wrote:Except the rule in question only grants invulns to power weapons that "don't have any other special rules." NFW obviously have other special rules.

Personally though I think that is one of the most suspect of the leaked rules, as it would be a crazy strong buff to PWs that would disproportionately buff some units over others..

Ah, that's what I get for not going back and re-reading the leak.

I am not sure that is the most suspect rule IMHO. The massive nerf on transports (can only shoot 18 inches out of one, only one guy can fire out of one if the transport moves) seems crazy suspect to me. And so does the general rule all snipers get.

If any of the decisions in the new 5th faqs carryover there is potential for falchions. The current faq rules them as a single ccw that adds +1A, not 2 ccws or even 2 handed, this could be added with the assult weapons being a second ccw on the charge for alot of swings.

Some of these arguments prove what an early leak of 6th this must be, as I admit some of the rules will break the game if they go through. Given the argument about assault weapons and NFW's, if the generous interpretation is right, and PA GK units get both a 5++ save and an extra attack in melee, they will be downright broken against some armies.

In all honestly, I don't expect NFW's to grant a 5++ save as that would be crazy to face to against for armies like daemons and orks. How exactly would a melee focused army like daemons deal with units that already get preferred enemy, drop them to I1 and a chance to insta kill with every wound, combined with 5++ save in melee and an extra attack? If purifiers got the charge on pretty much any unit of daemons, save maybe a fateweaver buffed deathstar, they would wipe it out no contest. Never mind what throwing in an IC with grenades and extra abilities will do. Orks have a tough enough time against purifiers without extra attacks and invulnerable saves being thrown in. There's no way that rule is going to extend to our units.

Considering that IC's can already snipe the insta-killing weapons out of a unit before it gets to swing (thanks to directed attacks with high base initiative or halberds), we really don't need more buffing in the melee department. Purifiers and terminators are absolutely overpowered (in the 6th ed leak) for units that are suppose to balance both shooting and assault.

The only reason I believe someone is seriously working to balance the game instead of buff GK to the sky is that paladins were nerfed with wound allocation and patch up. You take that 1 rule away and they would have been near unstoppable in this edition of the game. Paladins with up to 6 attacks each on the charge, then getting to shoot at full strength at a separate unit, is just painful to watch. The only thing that balances it out is how fast they die now compared to before.

Given the argument about assault weapons and NFW's, if the generous interpretation is right, and PA GK units get both a 5++ save and an extra attack in melee

Nemesis weapons are power weapons with additional rules, thus no 5++. They are force weapons, and not to mention they have additional rules such as +1 inv save, thus there is literally NO chance of gaining a 5++ in CC.

They lose complete instant death however as well due to force weapons being ID(2), so they will only do 2 wounds now, daemonbane is gone as well.

Yes they'll get an additional +1 to attack, so long as they aren't wielding two handed weapons (which is the Halberd, and the warding stave) Coarse weapons don't gain it as well (Doomhammers), and of course those with psycannons only get the basic attack of course.

So if you really want that +1 assault attack, you're going to need to take the falchions, or force sword... Yeah, not as concerned there.

There's also the fact they only give the +1 attack for ONE ROUND. It's either on charge or during the first turn, bit uncertain there.

Considering that IC's can already snipe the insta-killing weapons out of a unit before it gets to swing (thanks to directed attacks with high base initiative or halberds)

Two handed weapons can't direct attack. Meaning halberds. Coarse weapons cannot direct either, so no hammer targeting, same with the greatsword and doomfist.

I think the Dreadknight got alot better with the new ID rules and monstrous close combat weapons.

6) Stormraven's are badass. They are supersonic flyers now so pretty much every unit in the game will only be hitting them on a 6+ in shooting and they are impossible to hit in cc by anything that isn't flying or jump infantry. I didn't look too closely at the flyer rules but overall, they seem to be a huge benefit to this unit, meaning we shouldn't be surprised to see 2 or more of them in alot of GK armies.

Dont believe this rule will make it.
If so then in reality this will screw over the whole game, unless DE flyers (and to an extent eldar flyers as well) wont count as supersonic then the whole DE army of 12+ boats will be utterly unstoppable.

If NFW swords dont get any benefit from the 5++ powerweapon buff and healbeards are nerfed then as I see it the whole GK melee is nerfed.

Also, how is summoning more viable now, what happens if a deepstriking unit scatters onto an enemy, they take only d6 wounds and can they assault right after summoning?

I suspect that unless it's got a flying base it won't count as flying

Pyriel- wrote:

6) Stormraven's are badass. They are supersonic flyers now so pretty much every unit in the game will only be hitting them on a 6+ in shooting and they are impossible to hit in cc by anything that isn't flying or jump infantry. I didn't look too closely at the flyer rules but overall, they seem to be a huge benefit to this unit, meaning we shouldn't be surprised to see 2 or more of them in alot of GK armies.

Dont believe this rule will make it.
If so then in reality this will screw over the whole game, unless DE flyers (and to an extent eldar flyers as well) wont count as supersonic then the whole DE army of 12+ boats will be utterly unstoppable.

If NFW swords dont get any benefit from the 5++ powerweapon buff and healbeards are nerfed then as I see it the whole GK melee is nerfed.

Also, how is summoning more viable now, what happens if a deepstriking unit scatters onto an enemy, they take only d6 wounds and can they assault right after summoning?

Flyer rules are going to make it into the game whether this leak is real or not. Forge world has been quietly refining and pushing them out in IA books for awhile now and its pretty established fact that GW plans to incorporate forgeworld stuff into the main game line so that they are tournament legal and therefore make the company more money. Expect superheavies and flyers in your 6th edition games however real this leak turns out to be.

As to flyers being broken, the leak literally has a stratagem (the points you bid on to get first turn) to give any unit you want the AA rules. It means they always hit flyers on EV3 (basically hitting on 3 for GK) no matter how fast it went. Flyers aren't so scary with a couple of AA psybolt dakka dreads in the back field ripping them apart.

As to summoning, you've combined the rules for warp quake and deep striking by accident. Its warp quake that causes d6 wounds if anything deep strikes within 12" (which also, interestingly, means you get to shoot them). Deep striking, and summoning, now don't scatter if you do it 18" away from an enemy. Get close and you scatter as normal, the difference being that you get to move your units the minimum required to place them clear of any terrain or models they would land on. You do stuffer a stun (pinned) result for doing that, but thats far, far better than the 5th edition insta death from before.

Deep striking in general is safer and way higher reward-to-risk than the current edition. Keep in mind that now infiltrating and outflanking count as deep striking, so you will see this rule in action a whole lot more.

Last, and most importantly, where are you and everyone else getting that warding staves and halberds are twohanded weapons? I understand the daemonhammer because it specifically follows the rules for thunderhammers. But there's nothing (to my knowledge) to support the claims about the other NFWs other than that the power armor GK models carry it 2 handed. Its 1 handed for all terminators and nothing in the GK codex says otherwise. I'm pretty sure I could model my guys as going 1 handed and it would be perfectly legal. So we will be getting the assault weapon boost because that was basically the intention. Do you know how few armies would actually benefit from that rule if GK don't get it?

If so then in reality this will screw over the whole game, unless DE flyers (and to an extent eldar flyers as well) wont count as supersonic then the whole DE army of 12+ boats will be utterly unstoppable.

Please read the codex updates, Eldar do not have fliers. Not to mention raiders/venoms are not fliers, the only fliers Dark Eldar have is the Void raider bomber, and the jet fighter

And of the flyer rules, supersonic only grants them flying once per turn. They can only target things within 2", (unless making a bombing run), can be selected in the assault phase by one of your units within 3" (which voids their flyer protection), and if you have anti-air, you can shoot them down easily still.

Please, read the rulebook before making these weird comments.

If NFW swords dont get any benefit from the 5++ powerweapon buff and healbeards are nerfed then as I see it the whole GK melee is nerfed.

So they are nerfed..Because they are exactly the same? What kind of logic is this? They are already all wielding Force Weapons, Instant Death 2 weapons, and you'd like them to get a 5++ save on top of that with all their neat little bonuses? Yeah no.

Halberds are the exact same (Unless there's a Healbeard I have yet to see, is it dwarf fortress related? _) They just cannot direct target in assault.

There is literally nothing changed, you still benefit from all the new rules, and you are still very powerful in melee.

Also, how is summoning more viable now, what happens if a deepstriking unit scatters onto an enemy, they take only d6 wounds and can they assault right after summoning?

They are summoned from anywhere on the tabletop and placed within 6", they do not use deep strike rules, They make a teleportation movement. They cannot use stationary actions (shooting heavy weapons for example), but they can still do an engage movement. (Unsure of this as well)

Last, and most importantly, where are you and everyone else getting that warding staves and halberds are twohanded weapons?

Page 54: Nemesis Halberds are Two Handed weapons

Its 1 handed for all terminators and nothing in the GK codex says otherwise

Well unless they come out with an errata for terminators specifically that says they can use two handed weapons one handed, this rule takes precedence for anything you can really come up with for it, you are not being allowed to model for advantage here. They can still use it with the other weapons aside from Halberds, ward staves potentially as well (not so sure there, thought it had two-handed, but you may be right there.)

If you want that charge bonus with assault weapons, you still have Falchions, force sword, and the warding stave.

Two-handed
Two handed-weapons cannot be combined with a
secondary weapon or be used as a secondary
weapon. Two-handed weapons can never be used
to inflict directed hits, even if the wielder has a
corresponding special rule.


Assault weapons:
Note that
the model needs a one-handed primary close
combat weapon to claim the attack bonus

As to flyers being broken, the leak literally has a stratagem (the points you bid on to get first turn) to give any unit you want the AA rules. It means they always hit flyers on EV3 (basically hitting on 3 for GK) no matter how fast it went. Flyers aren't so scary with a couple of AA psybolt dakka dreads in the back field ripping them apart.

Then this means that there goes the stormraven being awesomely buffed too since the opponent can get AA as well?

Pyriel- wrote:

As to flyers being broken, the leak literally has a stratagem (the points you bid on to get first turn) to give any unit you want the AA rules. It means they always hit flyers on EV3 (basically hitting on 3 for GK) no matter how fast it went. Flyers aren't so scary with a couple of AA psybolt dakka dreads in the back field ripping them apart.

Then this means that there goes the stormraven being awesomely buffed too since the opponent can get AA as well?

If he wants to pay his precious strategem points (If he goes second, remember you can get the strategem points too as well), on AA, than he can.

Does no one but me care about the transport rules in the alleged leak?

Only can fire 18 inches out of a fire point, and if the transport moves, only one guy can fire from inside the vehicle? That would massively impact some GK lists. Henchmen especially. Purifier lists too. Because with 5 purifiers and 2 psycannons, on any turn the transport moves, your fire output is the same as the significantly cheaper 5 Strikers and 1 psycannon.

Joe Mama wrote:Does no one but me care about the transport rules in the alleged leak?

Only can fire 18 inches out of a fire point, and if the transport moves, only one guy can fire from inside the vehicle? That would massively impact some GK lists. Henchmen especially. Purifier lists too. Because with 5 purifiers and 2 psycannons, on any turn the transport moves, your fire output is the same as the significantly cheaper 5 Strikers and 1 psycannon.

Personally, I like the leaked transport rules. Transports are still very useful for getting from Point A to Point B (aka they're useful as ... transports), but they're no longer perfect for sticking your entire army into and meching around the entire game. It does invalidate the mech style of play somewhat (at least the lists that rely on keeping everyone in transports), but I've never found that kind of game very interesting anyways. I want to be able to show my pretty models off on the table without relying on my opponent to pop their Rhino first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyriel- wrote:Then this means that there goes the stormraven being awesomely buffed too since the opponent can get AA as well?

It's not so much about stratagems as it is about an infantry unit within 3" being able to light the stormraven up and remove its buffed Evasion. Furthermore, even if 6's to hit are required, any immobilised or stunned result on the flyer will destroy it immediately, so supersonic sacrifices some durability.

As I believe you brought up in another thread a while ago, the Stormraven doesn't really have effective firepower for its point cost. That hasn't changed. Zooming around while supersonic mitigates many of the advantages of the SR (Assault Vehicle, PotMS)

Only can fire 18 inches out of a fire point, and if the transport moves, only one guy can fire from inside the vehicle? That would massively impact some GK lists. Henchmen especially. Purifier lists too. Because with 5 purifiers and 2 psycannons, on any turn the transport moves, your fire output is the same as the significantly cheaper 5 Strikers and 1 psycannon.

Is this a 3++ save nerf only?
How about open topped transports?

all models in an open topped can shoot, still only 18" though.
In the special rules under transports that some things have(assult vehicle, open topped, ect.) there is the com station rule, that removes the 18" limit. from what i can see there the only place to get it currently is for fortifications, but I could be seen on more things in the future. ( i could see an HQ chimera or the SM command rhino geting it if the added it)

Roboute wrote:Personally, I like the leaked transport rules. Transports are still very useful for getting from Point A to Point B (aka they're useful as ... transports), but they're no longer perfect for sticking your entire army into and meching around the entire game. It does invalidate the mech style of play somewhat (at least the lists that rely on keeping everyone in transports), but I've never found that kind of game very interesting anyways. I want to be able to show my pretty models off on the table without relying on my opponent to pop their Rhino first.

Whether you like it or not, it still is a pretty big nerf. Sure it hurts people more who camp inside Rhinos with rocket launchers or whatever, but it still messes up a current good style of play for GK.

It does invalidate the mech style of play somewhat

Somewhat? LOL, that's an understatement. Chimeras need to sit still to make use of more than one fire point. That's huge. MSU purifiers wouldn't be nearly as good.

Joe Mama wrote:Somewhat? LOL, that's an understatement. Chimeras need to sit still to make use of more than one fire point. That's huge. MSU purifiers wouldn't be nearly as good.

Don't most MSU purifiers use Psybacks for the extra firepower anyways? I guess I'm ambivalent about Rhino vs. Psyback, the Rhino keeps everyone in a metal box but the Psybacks are substantially more shooty for only 10pts more.

Roboute wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:Somewhat? LOL, that's an understatement. Chimeras need to sit still to make use of more than one fire point. That's huge. MSU purifiers wouldn't be nearly as good.

Don't most MSU purifiers use Psybacks for the extra firepower anyways? I guess I'm ambivalent about Rhino vs. Psyback, the Rhino keeps everyone in a metal box but the Psybacks are substantially more shooty for only 10pts more.

What a strange response. Are you trying to subtly argue that the transport rules in the leak wouldn't be a big deal (even though they are)? I am not sure what most use, but 5 guys, 2 with psycannons inside the protective bunker of a Rhino, is pretty damn good in 5th edition. In 6th, it is not anywhere close to as good. And for anyone using chimeras to shoot out of, the supposed 6th edition rules nerf them pretty hard. So hard that some people running henchmen would fall on the ground into a fetal position and cry.

Joe Mama wrote:

Roboute wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:Somewhat? LOL, that's an understatement. Chimeras need to sit still to make use of more than one fire point. That's huge. MSU purifiers wouldn't be nearly as good.

Don't most MSU purifiers use Psybacks for the extra firepower anyways? I guess I'm ambivalent about Rhino vs. Psyback, the Rhino keeps everyone in a metal box but the Psybacks are substantially more shooty for only 10pts more.

What a strange response. Are you trying to subtly argue that the transport rules in the leak wouldn't be a big deal (even though they are)? I am not sure what most use, but 5 guys, 2 with psycannons inside the protective bunker of a Rhino, is pretty damn good in 5th edition. In 6th, it is not anywhere close to as good. And for anyone using chimeras to shoot out of, the supposed 6th edition rules nerf them pretty hard. So hard that some people running henchmen would fall on the ground into a fetal position and cry.

It of course also means that Jokero can now fire out their heavy weaponry in that relentless 18" bubble, same with servitors. Park that chimera somewhere and blast away!

junk wrote:
However Paladins and Purifiers are still murder in CC and very capable in shooting. The fact that Assaulting out of deep strike is now available, the fact that the entire army can deep strike is huge, and the removal of Deep Strike Mishaps is also a boon.

Purifiers can't actually deep strike, which is a bit poop.

Whilst I agree that GK will remain one of the top armies, I believe that they have taken a nerf overall. The fact that normal power weapons grant a 5+ invul means that, in some cases, GK weaponry will be less effective. Not hugely so but there will be a difference. And GK don't benefit from the 5+ with any of their weapons.

The additional attacks granted by assault weapons is a rule all armies can benefit from but GK halberds are two handed so to take advantage of the extra attacks GK need to lose the halberds, dropping from I6 to I4. Alpha strikes at I10 will also beat halberds.

The OP mentioned warp quake being nerfed. I suppose it has but D6 critical hits is potentially devastating whereas an auto mishap as we get now won't necessarily damage the unit so it's a change that's as good as it is bad. Where I've noticed a nerf is with cleansing flame - it now only affects 'engaged' models rather than all the models in a unit which potentially lowers the amount of damage it can cause. This negative is somewhat mitigated by the fact that models within 3" of those in b2b are now classed as engaged, rather than 2". It just means that extremely large units are likely to take less damage from cleansing flame.

Lots of glancing hits can now wreck/destroy vehicles. As pointed out to me in the rumour thread, it may take a hell of a lot to glance AV14 to death but for GK, who can put out a hell of a lot of firepower that can score bang on 14 for armour pen (Psy Dread Auto cannons and psycannons) I think this is good news. Hitting Dreads on the rear armour in CC is a bad thing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Yes they'll get an additional +1 to attack, so long as they aren't wielding two handed weapons (which is the Halberd, and the warding stave) Coarse weapons don't gain it as well (Doomhammers), and of course those with psycannons only get the basic attack of course.

Actually, Warding Staves aren't listed as two handed so they should get the +1. Or am I missing a rule that tells us staves are two handed somewhere else? It's just that on the page that details each NFW, the codex specifically tells us halberds are two handed whereas it does not tell us the staves are.


EDIT* Re the 5+ save for power weapons. The listing for force weapons is as follows:

Force weapons are potent psychic weapons only
used by trained Psykers. They have the same
effects as power weapons, but can also be
charged with sprawling psionic energy that can
instantly extinguish the life force of any
opponent.

So, by RAW, you accept that it is a Force Weapon first but that it also has the same effect as a power weapon. A power weapon grants a 5+ invul save so, this should grant the wielder a 5+ save because you are given it due to the wording of the rule that tells us the force weapon has the same effects as a power weapon. Now, in the case of the NF sword, it already grants a +1 to an invul save IF the model already has an invul save. If the bearer has no invul save, there is no effect. So could it be argued that in the case of a PAGK, a 5+ would be granted because the special rule has no effect? There is clearly a special rule attached to the weapon but it has no effect on power armour.

I'm only playing devil's advocate here and I admit that it's wishful thinking at best that all of a sudden every GK could have an invul save but by the way it's written, I can see how it could be argued that a sword on a PAGK does grant a 5++ but I would expect GW to rule that it doesn't.

Actually, Warding Staves aren't listed as two handed so they should get the +1. Or am I missing a rule that tells us staves are two handed somewhere else? It's just that on the page that details each NFW, the codex specifically tells us halberds are two handed whereas it does not tell us the staves are.

I had thought stave's were listed as two handed, so that was my bad.

. Now, in the case of the NF sword, it already grants a +1 to an invul save IF the model already has an invul save. If the bearer has no invul save, there is no effect. So could it be argued that in the case of a PAGK, a 5+ would be granted because the special rule has no effect?

It has an effect on the sword, even if it is not being used, meaning it is a power weapon with special rules attached

Some very rare power weapons may even
give a Strength bonus or have other additional
special rules, as detailed in the appropriate army
Codex;

It does not need to be in effect to prevent the blocking for parry. It just needs an effect on it. Like I wish I could block with the relic blade, but it is a power weapon with additional rules. The executioner for Banshee's is the same way, so no saves there.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:It of course also means that Jokero can now fire out their heavy weaponry in that relentless 18" bubble, same with servitors. Park that chimera somewhere and blast away!

Yes, ok, that relentless thing is a plus. But if the transport moves, only one servitor, or only one jokero can fire out of the transport. And only at 18 inches. Yay?

Joe Mama wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:It of course also means that Jokero can now fire out their heavy weaponry in that relentless 18" bubble, same with servitors. Park that chimera somewhere and blast away!

Yes, ok, that relentless thing is a plus. But if the transport moves, only one servitor, or only one jokero can fire out of the transport. And only at 18 inches. Yay?

It's still an upgrade to No heavy weapons being fired on the move . Now you can fire plasma cannons out the port view window at those annoying DoA marines.

ZebioLizard2 wrote: Now you can fire a single plasma cannon out the port view window at those annoying DoA marines.

Fixed.

Rapid fire weapons can double tap at the magic 18" when relentless, so some units can get a buff from that.