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DarbNilbirts wrote:Rapid fire weapons can double tap at the magic 18" when relentless, so some units can get a buff from that.

Yeah, the LRC's Hurricane bolters just got a lot more fun thanks to relentless

Speaking of the LRC and Hurricane bolters, Psybolt ammo looks to be viable on it now since multi-targetting (unlike defensive weaponry) doesn't care about weapon strength.

DarbNilbirts wrote:Rapid fire weapons can double tap at the magic 18" when relentless, so some units can get a buff from that.

Just not anything worthwhile in the GK codex though. What are you going to stick in a transport that is going to work well under the supposed 6th edition rules?


Losing shooting range, and trading all but one fire point for relentless ain't a good deal at all.

One psycannon firing in Heavy mode thanks to Relentless is the same as two firing in Assault mode.

So there's the range reduction, which puts you in rapid fire range against infantry and assault range against cavalry/jump infantry.

If that's a mech nerf, I'm afraid I can't sympathize.

Hyd wrote:If that's a mech nerf, I'm afraid I can't sympathize.

What do you mean if? Did you forget what you said a mere sentence earlier than this?


Also, the other guy was talking about relentless rapid firers in transports acting as a buff in some cases (even though there is reduced range and even though only one guy could fire out of a transport when it moves). Don't see where that buffs any squad any GK player has been using. And "tailoring" a squad like that for this probably fake 6th edition leak would be what, a henchmen squad, with only one guy having a plasma gun? Wow, what a buff!

Joe Mama wrote:

Hyd wrote:If that's a mech nerf, I'm afraid I can't sympathize.

What do you mean if? Did you forget what you said a mere sentence earlier than this?


Also, the other guy was talking about relentless rapid firers in transports acting as a buff in some cases (even though there is reduced range and even though only one guy could fire out of a transport when it moves). Don't see where that buffs any squad any GK player has been using. And "tailoring" a squad like that for this probably fake 6th edition leak would be what, a henchmen squad, with only one guy having a plasma gun? Wow, what a buff!

People usually take the standard henchmen squads in razorbacks anyways. So if you really want to take advantage, take a servitor with a plasma/heavybolter or a Jokero.

Or even the psyker squad, which still has its standard blast due to only firing from one person

Came to think of something...
If you now can assault after deepstrike all those until now useless Mordrak builds might actually become real powerhouses and all of a sudden it makes sense that you can only take 5 ghost knights and not 10.

Joe Mama wrote:

Hyd wrote:If that's a mech nerf, I'm afraid I can't sympathize.

What do you mean if? Did you forget what you said a mere sentence earlier than this?

... What I'm saying is, if that's what makes you cringe like that, then I cannot quite relate.

Pyriel, are you arguing that Deep Strike is altogether useless ? Mordrak differs only in that he arrives turn 1 with extreme precision, so if anything he's better than any other deepstriking option the Grey Knights can deploy.

My new plan is now to have my vindicare riding around in his own man rhino/chimera and shoot 18' +6 ' movement at random stuff around the board.

I may also have to reconsider shoving a Culuxus assasin in a rhino and using it to screen a 10 man strike squad running behind it giving him like +11 attacks out the tank. (13 strr 5 AP1 attacks should blow up some infantry nicely)

And yes, the monkies with some henchmen would not be a bad idea. (I'm sorry to all my future opponents but I am gonna have to use some ork models for'em just cause I can't stand to pay so much money per space monkey little less paiting them)

Also, may even shove someone with an orbital strike relay and have them ride around dropping the heavy lance blast templates on the move.

My big beef with servitors is mindlock or I'd love to shove 3 plasma cannons into everyplace.

I may also have to reconsider shoving a Culuxus assasin in a rhino and using it to screen a 10 man strike squad running behind it giving him like +11 attacks out the tank. (13 strr 5 AP1 attacks should blow up some infantry nicely)

Think you might be getting his rule wrong, he only gets +1 attack per Grey knight UNIT due to the Brotherhood of Psykers rules, not model.

"The unit counts as a Single Psyker and follows all the normal rules for Psykers, with the following clarification"

However I am rather unsure about the Psyker Battalion Henchmen Unit. They are only counted as a single Psyker for Psyker test purposes. So I really don't know what to say for this one.

Also, may even shove someone with an orbital strike relay and have them ride around dropping the heavy lance blast templates on the move.

By this rule of Bombardment in the 6th edition, you cannot.

Bombardment
Model Type: Shooting, Stationary, Disembarked
A model performing this action can call down an
artillery strike or use weapons that are so
cumbersome that even vehicles need to remain
stationary to fire them. A model that executes an
Bombardment action cannot perform any other
Shooting actions in that turn.

As the orbital strike relay is counted as

Page 58 - Orbital strike relay
The orbital strike relay is treated as a ranged weapon
that can be fired by a single Bombardment action

ahh darn. Dunno how I missed that. well there goes another idea. Maybe I'll just throw a bunch of psycher henchmen in a rhino and have the culuxes out in front XD

Pyriel, are you arguing that Deep Strike is altogether useless ? Mordrak differs only in that he arrives turn 1 with extreme precision, so if anything he's better than any other deepstriking option the Grey Knights can deploy

Well right now Mordeak is useless, havent seen any Mordrak builds in competitive gaming ever.
BUT...if you can assault after deepstrike in 6:ed then Mordrak will become the new cheese as you DS him, 5 ghostknights and a second HQ without scatter and assault the enemy right away.

That's saying offensive Deep Strikes are useless. Mordrak does it better than anyone else, so if Mordrak is useless then so is DS. Just wanted to be sure that's what you meant.

That's saying offensive Deep Strikes are useless. Mordrak does it better than anyone else, so if Mordrak is useless then so is DS. Just wanted to be sure that's what you meant.

That are your words not mine and I would appreciate it if you refrained from trying to put them in my mouth!

Offensive deepstrikes are far from good if they occur alone. This is why Deathwing and drop pod assault have said offensive deepstrikes altered to actually make them usable.
Last time I checked having the option for massed simultaneous deepstrikes hands down beats having one small deepstriker coming in alone, be it without scatter but also without any special weapons like flamers/meltas to utilize said lack of scatter.

Besides, care to show me the tournament winning GK lists that are built around Mordrak?
I mean if he is so good and all that you shouldnt have any problems with this.

As it is, Grand master murdok is pretty much a fluffy choice, sure you can take him and deepstrike him, but as it is he'll just be popped by instant death with his T4, making his wounds that make ghost knights useless.

It's like taking deathleaper in the current enviroment, even with a 3++ save you really don't want him in cover, because the stormbolter isn't exactly a good thing about him. And he's better up close with his terminator army. As it is, he's basically a "Please smack me with all the dark lances you have" Target. And than you have lost 400 points.

If he had EW, he'd actually be useful, able to survive, but if you really want a grand master with a daemonhammer so badly, take a normal one, it's cheaper. Either that, or the deep strike assault would help even more as he would have Heroic Deepstrike, which allows him to avoid Defensive fire in the 6th edition.

Pyriel- wrote:

Pyriel, are you arguing that Deep Strike is altogether useless ? Mordrak differs only in that he arrives turn 1 with extreme precision, so if anything he's better than any other deepstriking option the Grey Knights can deploy

Well right now Mordeak is useless, havent seen any Mordrak builds in competitive gaming ever.
BUT...if you can assault after deepstrike in 6:ed then Mordrak will become the new cheese as you DS him, 5 ghostknights and a second HQ without scatter and assault the enemy right away.

How about attaching a Tech Marine, too.

Pyriel- wrote:That are your words not mine and I would appreciate it if you refrained from trying to put them in my mouth!

Offensive deepstrikes are far from good if they occur alone. This is why Deathwing and drop pod assault have said offensive deepstrikes altered to actually make them usable.
Last time I checked having the option for massed simultaneous deepstrikes hands down beats having one small deepstriker coming in alone, be it without scatter but also without any special weapons like flamers/meltas to utilize said lack of scatter.

Besides, care to show me the tournament winning GK lists that are built around Mordrak?
I mean if he is so good and all that you shouldnt have any problems with this.

Now that's more the kind of answer I was trying to get, but since you just reiterated your first statement after my post, I resorted to a less subtle approach.
I was not trying to make a point about Mordrak himself or his competitive use, you seem to be putting words in my mouth too. The thing is, pretty much everything that has been said against him also applies to normal GK Terminator squads, so I came to wonder if the general idea was that DS is a poor option overall (bearing in mind the topic is Grey Knights).

This works in reverse too. With the number of GK troops able to DS, the prospect of charging upon arrival is quite interesting to say the least... Might want to provide them a beacon or a servo-skull though.

Well I was kind of lazy thinking people already know these things so I didnt bother to write an essay on the matter of deep striking

If the assault after DS rumors are true GKs will be a powerhouse of an army. Mordrak is just the beginning.
Also if the stormbolters granting +1A on the charge are true even better.
Imagine what a psychic communion inq HQ can do with 50 strike knights, 3 tecchie skulls and 10 terminators when everything (except the hidden inq) deepstrikes on a 3+ and assaults right afterwards.

As it is, Grand master murdok is pretty much a fluffy choice, sure you can take him and deepstrike him, but as it is he'll just be popped by instant death with his T4, making his wounds that make ghost knights useless.

while it's true that EW would make him better, his T4 ID hasn't really ever come up for me when I've used him. As he's not an IC and can't be singled out, I can assign any ID wounds to his ghost knights. So far it hasn't happened anyway but I've yet to get hit by enough Str 8+ hits to kill the whole squad in one go unless I suppose you drop him in the middle of the entire enemy army. I usually perfer to drop him i nthe flank somewhere (usually behind some LOS) so I can get the charge on turn 2 or at the least distract the enemy to force him to open up a weaker flank if they go after him.

What I hate though is that some people who know just reserve everything and then all my deep strike business gets all confused XD

ZebioLizard2 wrote:People usually take the standard henchmen squads in razorbacks anyways.

Usually? I don't know. Maybe. But it is not like having special weapons firing out of a chimera or Rhino is bad now - it is a good option in some lists. If these leaked rules which are probably fake turn out to be true, well then no one in their right mind would bother with meched up henchmen, like 3 melta gunners plus others in a chimera, or multiple MM servitors and other stuff in a chimera or:

So if you really want to take advantage, take a servitor with a plasma/heavybolter or a Jokero.

Servitor requires an inquisitor so as not to make the unit terrible. I suppose a Jokero could be in a unit as the sole 'gun', but then again, all you get from that is 18 inch range lascannons and the like, which is pretty awful. That's not really "taking advantage" that is doing your best with a huge nerf.

Or even the psyker squad, which still has its standard blast due to only firing from one person

Their shooting attack can already happen on the move....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hyd wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:

Hyd wrote:If that's a mech nerf, I'm afraid I can't sympathize.

What do you mean if? Did you forget what you said a mere sentence earlier than this?

... What I'm saying is, if that's what makes you cringe like that, then I cannot quite relate.

Yes, I know that's what you tried to say earlier, but completely failed in your execution. Which is why I used a smiley face after I busted your balls.

Joe Mama wrote:Yes, I know that's what you tried to say earlier, but completely failed in your execution. Which is why I used a smiley face after I busted your balls.

Wow, ain't you a scary tough guy.
Hate to break it to you but you're not busting anyone, you're just sounding annoying for not getting over this mech "nerf" without showing much will to discuss things intelligently. Your last post shows there is some hope though.

I myself like the idea of the Vindicare getting his own metal box, if only for tactical flexibility.

myself like the idea of the Vindicare getting his own metal box, if only for tactical flexibility.

Technically you can do this now cept your range with the vindicare is only 12' (+6' tank movement for 18' threat range, less than the presumed 6th edition of 18+6 (24') but still kind of viable to get out of the dangerous assault units headed your way. 36' camping is all good though, 2+ cover with techmarine rawr). Not that bad considering that you can move around and what not.

Almost everyone forgets that he has a sniper pistol that's the same as his main gun cept shorter range.

Hyd wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:Yes, I know that's what you tried to say earlier, but completely failed in your execution. Which is why I used a smiley face after I busted your balls.

Wow, ain't you a scary tough guy.
Hate to break it to you but you're not busting anyone, you're just sounding annoying for not getting over this mech "nerf" without showing much will to discuss things intelligently. Your last post shows there is some hope though.

Wow, sensitive much? And apparently ignorant of common expressions about balls? Since when does someone have to be a tough guy, or a guy generally, to point out poor sentence construction resulting in erroneous statements? You said "if it is a nerf" when it clearly is a nerf. You wrote your sentence incorrectly.

And now you are implying I am stupid, because I think the transport nerf is a much bigger deal than you do. Stay classy my friend.

Both of you are getting too personal and insulting with your comments. So I suggest you take it out of this thread and pm each other insults all you want.

In regards to the mech nerf, I'm afraid complaining will get zero sympathy from me. Mech armies are a very much a 5th edition monster and something I will be glad to see die off in the next edition

There is a place for it, and vehicles are still very powerful, as evidence from the flyer and tank rules. But the days of every army being nothing but metal boxes are gone and I will be happy to see the end of that style of play.

I still plan on running plenty of tanks in my army, even henchmen. I just don't expect to stay in them the entire game now and might have to actually get my units out and think about how to play.

Any GK that aren't paladins or deep striking are still going to need transports to get from point A to B and live, you just have to more afterwards than "sit in safe metal box and shoot out all day".

Razorspam would be the 6th ed powerhouse build.

In 5th ed AV11 tanks with tl psyammo ac are expensive and fragile. Under the leak being talked about they would be mt2 with 1 gun, so they could still move and shoot after weapon destroyed results. They would always move unless immobolized, so everybody would get +1 to hit, but all glances/pens would be 1 less on the damage table. Net result is a greater number of hits, glances, pens, shaken, stunned, weapon destroyed, and imobolized, but less wrecked and explodes. Since the 1st weapon destroyed is irrelevent, and fortitude usually negates shaken/stunned AV11 gk razorbacks would then be tough as nails.

schadenfreude wrote:Razorspam would be the 6th ed powerhouse build.

In 5th ed AV11 tanks with tl psyammo ac are expensive and fragile. Under the leak being talked about they would be mt2 with 1 gun, so they could still move and shoot after weapon destroyed results. They would always move unless

immobolized, so everybody would get +1 to hit, but all glances/pens would be 1 less on the damage table. Net result is a greater number of hits, glances, pens, shaken, stunned, weapon destroyed, and imobolized, but less wrecked and explodes. Since the 1st weapon destroyed is irrelevent, and fortitude usually negates shaken/stunned AV11 gk razorbacks would then be tough as nails.

Double stun results in weapons destroyed. Meaning fortitude is now weaker than living metal, as you can only do it on your turn. Being stunned alot will end up destroying weapons, no more shooting = immobilization, immobilization again wrecks you.

When you score a Crew - Stunned or Damaged -
Immobilised result while the vehicle already is
already stunned or permanently immobile, the
roll is treated as the next higher result. A vehicle
can suffer several Damaged - Weapons results,
but once the vehicle cannot shoot anymore, any
further result is also treated as the next higher.
Thus a single roll on the Vehicle Damage table
may be increased several times.

basically, necrons will be best vehicles around from the sounds of things. Frankly I'm seeing alot of storm ravens and dread knights with proper support with the continued razorbacks as the backbone though your goal is still to get into assault range and not so much just sit in bawkez

There's also the fact that necron's won't also have the tank bonus, and of course the penetration = AV11, so of course it is a tradeoff for not being able to be glanced to death from stunned results.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:There's also the fact that necron's won't also have the tank bonus, and of course the penetration = AV11, so of course it is a tradeoff for not being able to be glanced to death from stunned results.

but pen AV 13 is still pretty tough for most of the stuff on the board. It's already a net bonus for them since they won't have the open top extra +1. Also not exactly sure what's gonna happen for embarked shooting as opposed fire point vehicles since the book says assume the fire point is destroyed but how do you destroy something that wasn't there?

It's funny how nobody noted the simple fact. YES, grey knights don't benefit from 5+ invul save because they are not power weapons.
However, Please read mastercrafted rules, now all of my justicars do infact benefit from the invul save. 4+ Invul save Purifer Justicar? Yes Please.

Oh wait those Paladins who just got gakky? Can't they mastercrafted ALL of their weapons..... Though So.


Still marching on you Draigowing 6th ed get whooped.

Caidenlee wrote:It's funny how nobody noted the simple fact. YES, grey knights don't benefit from 5+ invul save because they are not power weapons.
However, Please read mastercrafted rules, now all of my justicars do infact benefit from the invul save. 4+ Invul save Purifer Justicar? Yes Please.

Oh wait those Paladins who just got gakky? Can't they mastercrafted ALL of their weapons..... Though So.


Still marching on you Draigowing 6th ed get whooped.

This is all speculation whether this rule becomes true. Too good to be true.