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Hopefully anyone responding to this thread will have actually read the pdf and faq out there before saying anything. For those of you that need a reference, google "6th edition leak".
Basically, I took a long, hard look at the document and feel about 80% sure that it is a legit test copy of the 6th edition codex. Wording will change and should be made clearer than how complex it is now but I think we're dealing with the real thing here.

In that respect, its worth discussing how this will affect my beloved GK.

A few things that pop out to me:

1) Draigowing is dead: the things that made this army so powerful in 5th are done away with in 6th. Wound allocation means they will die faster in both shooting and assault, and defensive fire/overwatch makes assaulting a prepared enemy a bad idea. What's worse is that when you get stuck in with an enemy in cc and don't kill them in 1 round, if a unit manages to counter charge you, they hit at I10, meaning they beat our amazing I6 halberds. The only buff they got was assault weapons counting as an extra cc weapon, so paladins and terminators have 3 attacks base. It gives them up to 5 attacks each with a banner on the charge but that doesn't balance out all the negatives.

2) Coteaz is amazing. Per the FAQ he grants his unit a 12" range overwatch ability to shoot any enemy unit that steps within range on the enemy's turn (no word on the limit to how many times you can do it in a turn). Combined with his sanctuary power his unit will be a nearly impossible rock to remove from the location they choose to stand their ground on. IC's in general also got buffed for helping their unit fight better in cc and shooting, making him almost a no-brainer at 100 points. The trick will be finding a suitably powerful unit to stick him in that can withstand long range firepower and dish it themselves. I'm thinking a full terminator unit with banners will be my choice. They'll have 2+ armour, up to 5 force weapon attacks each and can dish out the pain in shooting as well.

3) Warp quake was nerfed. It had to happen given how terrible it is to play against for some armies but its now just a "nice to have" rather than "auto-win". All it does now is cause D6 ap2 wounds against a deep strike unit that lands within range so it won't be killing anything outright. However, the new defensive fire rules mean that (almost) anything that deep strikes within range, you also get to shoot at. So you're essentially adding D6 wounds to the unit you shoot at. Not a bad compromise given how overpowered this ability is currently. I can foresee some nasty combos with a 10 man strike squad standing near coteaz's unit, and both of them unloading on any deep striker unlucky enough to land nearby, not much can survive that kind of firepower, so far as I can tell. Keep in mind that infiltrating now counts as a form of deep strike, so you will see more use of this ability than you might think.

4) All psykers now carry a pseudo-psychic hood. This one is major for us as a psychic army. Any psyker can try to counter an enemy's power cast within 24" on a roll of 5+, and hood's are even better. They now roll a D6 and add your mastery to it vs the enemy's roll. Librarian's with mastery level 3 suddenly seem worth it, given that most other psykers in 40k will only be mastery level 1.

5) forceweapons won't auto kill monsterous creatures. As there are now "levels" of eternal warrior and instant death, force weapons won't be auto killing any of the big baddies now that they all get EW3 (I think) as a baseline for being monsterous. Instead you just cause extra wounds against them. Overall, probably fair given how hard GK screws over tyranid MCs.

6) Stormraven's are badass. They are supersonic flyers now so pretty much every unit in the game will only be hitting them on a 6+ in shooting and they are impossible to hit in cc by anything that isn't flying or jump infantry. I didn't look too closely at the flyer rules but overall, they seem to be a huge benefit to this unit, meaning we shouldn't be surprised to see 2 or more of them in alot of GK armies.

Bruteboss wrote:
1) Draigowing is dead: the things that made this army so powerful in 5th are done away with in 6th. Wound allocation means they will die faster in both shooting and assault, and defensive fire/overwatch makes assaulting a prepared enemy a bad idea. What's worse is that when you get stuck in with an enemy in cc and don't kill them in 1 round, if a unit manages to counter charge you, they hit at I10, meaning they beat our amazing I6 halberds. The only buff they got was assault weapons counting as an extra cc weapon, so paladins and terminators have 3 attacks base. It gives them up to 5 attacks each with a banner on the charge but that doesn't balance out all the negatives.

Assault weapons are secondary weapons ON THE CHARGE. After the charge, they revert back to not being CCWs. Also, remember that defensive fire only comes into play if you're deep striking within 12", rushing out of a just-killed vehicle or if the enemy has Overwatch. The only unit we know of currently with Overwatch is Coteaz's and those under the effect of that one stratagem.

Bruteboss wrote:
2) Coteaz is amazing. 3) Warp quake was nerfed.

Agreed with these points.

Bruteboss wrote:
4) All psykers now carry a pseudo-psychic hood. This one is major for us as a psychic army. Any psyker can try to counter an enemy's power cast within 24" on a roll of 5+, and hood's are even better. They now roll a D6 and add your mastery to it vs the enemy's roll. Librarian's with mastery level 3 suddenly seem worth it, given that most other psykers in 40k will only be mastery level 1.

You forgot that all armies can try to dispel on a 6+, regardless of having psykers or being in range.

Bruteboss wrote:
5) forceweapons won't auto kill monsterous creatures. As there are now "levels" of eternal warrior and instant death, force weapons won't be auto killing any of the big baddies now that they all get EW3 (I think) as a baseline for being monsterous. Instead you just cause extra wounds against them. Overall, probably fair given how hard GK screws over tyranid MCs.

Can't find anything about monstrous giving free EW(Anything).

Bruteboss wrote:6) Stormraven's are badass. They are supersonic flyers now so pretty much every unit in the game will only be hitting them on a 6+ in shooting and they are impossible to hit in cc by anything that isn't flying or jump infantry. I didn't look too closely at the flyer rules but overall, they seem to be a huge benefit to this unit, meaning we shouldn't be surprised to see 2 or more of them in alot of GK armies.

They're buffed through the roof, yeah. Keep in mind that there's probably going to be some dedicated anti-air units popping up though.

IMHO, this thread is, while interesting, largely a waste of time. At this point, we cannot even be sure if the leaked rules are actually from GW. Additionally, assuming the leak is actual GW material, there is no way to tell how much might change from the creation of that document to the document that actually reaches the printers.

While it is an interesting intellectual exercise to consider what impact these rules have on various different codices, I'm afraid that most will be very disappointed when they discover their carefully thought out tactics don't mesh with the rules that actually appear in the next incarnation of the BRB.

Based on an (admittedly cursory) glance though the supposed 6e leaked rules, I have to say I'm extremely skeptical. Odds are this isn't the real deal. It's mainly little things that jump out at me, but this document just doesn't seem like it's genuine. Regardless, I have to agree with Saldiven that even if the rules are real leaked material, it's too early to begin speculating on the changes involved.

Saldiven wrote:IMHO, this thread is, while interesting, largely a waste of time. At this point, we cannot even be sure if the leaked rules are actually from GW. Additionally, assuming the leak is actual GW material, there is no way to tell how much might change from the creation of that document to the document that actually reaches the printers.

While it is an interesting intellectual exercise to consider what impact these rules have on various different codices, I'm afraid that most will be very disappointed when they discover their carefully thought out tactics don't mesh with the rules that actually appear in the next incarnation of the BRB.

+1 this.

IF these leaked rules are the real deal, then it's almost certainly the same thing as happened with 5th ed - the rules are the very earliest play-test versions. (anyone else recall how psychology was supposed to be 'the big thing' in the leaked 5th ed rules?! )

As for warp quake potentially getting nerfed, my poor Daemons can only jump for joy! Serves you right for getting something that moronically stupid-good in the first place!

Cheers!
- A poor Daemon player who's now suffered over a dozen quake-shunt insta-wins

As I said at the beginning, I think this is the real deal as far as a test copy is concerned. I've seen the "leak" codexes and 5th edition rules back when it was new and this looks just as legitimate as the real leaks that have gone out in the past, (for example the GK play test codex). Things changed between release and the test copy, its true, but the core was there and nothing was drastically different between them. If this is a fake, its the best one I've seen because most of them are incredibly easy to spot. If I were making a fake leak, I wouldn't put in so many drastic changes from the current edition, because this one is a completely different game as far as I'm concerned.

These sort of mental exercises are 100% worth it for people playing an expensive game like 40k. Its worth knowing, or having an educated guess as to what will be competitive in the future environment giving that you could be buying and painting units that end up being near useless in the new edition. I won't be making new purchases for GK until 6th edition rolls around for real, but at least I can guess at how my army will look at the time.

Saldiven wrote:IMHO, this thread is, while interesting, largely a waste of time.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner, at least for me personally. It is fun for some people to play "what ifs", but that's all it is right now. If you like doing that, then it isn't a waste for you, but for me it is about as useful as arguing which superhero would win in a fight against another.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bruteboss wrote:These sort of mental exercises are 100% worth it for people playing an expensive game like 40k. Its worth knowing, or having an educated guess as to what will be competitive in the future environment giving that you could be buying and painting units that end up being near useless in the new edition.

But you don't know if the leak is real, and even if you think it is, the final released rules could be so different as to make your current mental exercises worthless. Also:

I won't be making new purchases for GK until 6th edition rolls around for real

means you don't need to worry about wasting money!

Well, looking at GK only is not enough. Other armies well get buffs and nerfs too. For instance, Kan wall gets a nerf as cover save will be reduced to 5+, and Vets/Chimera melta spam gets nerfed too since only one passenger can shoot from the hatch of a moving vehicle (not just 3 as it is now).

They're buffed through the roof, yeah. Keep in mind that there's probably going to be some dedicated anti-air units popping up though

Agreed, Im seeing an Ork Flakka trukk somewhere in my future



And yes, we dont know 100% if these are true or not. BUT the point of these discussions popping up, is most of us believe at least most of these rules will be 6th edition. So theres no reason complaining about them being fake. Just join the discussion on them, you just might be more prepared for 6th then the rest of the people at your table.

Yeah it might be a fake but its a bloody good rule set, which i wouldn't say no to playing, i was looking into warmahordes just before christmas anyway, might as well play the game that i love.
personally although all psykers can now stop others from using there power libby's hood are just great, his psychic powers are awesome so why would you?
i'm thinking of a coteaz + libby with terminators backing them up, with psyilfemen, also looking into using land raiders, but not sure right now.
I can't remeber how our grenades have change but i do know that techmarines have gotten better being able to boast shooting instead of repairing (although you still can believe).
Also want do people think of dreadknights now? swords still over costed but have they got better or worse?

KingCracker wrote:

They're buffed through the roof, yeah. Keep in mind that there's probably going to be some dedicated anti-air units popping up though

Agreed, Im seeing an Ork Flakka trukk somewhere in my future

The Emperor will hopefully prevent this.

From the Update:

Page 28 - Personal Teleporter (Interceptor Squad only):
Units with personal teleporters are Jump Infantry.
Once per game, the unit can elect to make a Teleport
move instead of a regular move. If making this teleport
shunt, the unit immediately makes a move of up to 30"
in any direction.

NDKs with PT are no longer Jump Infantry? Or is it that they no longer may Shunt? Or is this stating the NDK that take PT just wasted points on an option they can't use?

Page 54
Ignore the Daemonbane rule altogether.

Well, we aren't Daemonhunters anymore, that's for sure.

SJ

The document is legit, but it's from a trial set stamped in May 2011, but play-tested well before that. There have since been changes...

I keep having it in my imagination that a personal teleporter dread knight somehow flying into the air like macross and hitting a storm raven with a thunder hammer.

err actually he'd just teleport on top of the plane I think wouldn't he?

sudojoe wrote:I keep having it in my imagination that a personal teleporter dread knight somehow flying into the air like macross and hitting a storm raven with a thunder hammer.

err actually he'd just teleport on top of the plane I think wouldn't he?

teleport in front of the plane
and straight punch with the mighty FISTs!

brassangel wrote:The document is legit, but it's from a trial set stamped in May 2011, but play-tested well before that. There have since been changes...

??? Source please. That's a pretty sweeping statement, one I'm surprised no one else has pointed out if true.

brassangel wrote:The document is legit, but it's from a trial set stamped in May 2011, but play-tested well before that. There have since been changes...

But you are a known liar and saboteur. You are wanted in 13 different countries for improper relations with cheese and crackers. You kidnapped one of Santa's reindeer. With this kind of reputation, how can we trust you?

Now people reading this might be skeptical about my claims, but I have proof, oh yes, I do. I will only reveal it once you reveal your source for your above claims.

To get back to the OP's intention for this thread;

I'm not totally in agreement that Draigowing is 'dead'. All of the elements contributing to the familiar cry that "Paladins are OP" still exist:

2+/5++ (with armor group differentiation in CC from Staves, Swords)
WS 5 (which is arguably even better than it was before)
Psycannons are still Fantastic Weapons
FNP Is still great
Stormbolters are still great
Incinerators are even better
Holocaust is improved
Hammerhand hasn't lost value.
Against most enemies, force weapons are still good for +1W

Draigowing features (in some cases) Stormravens, which have gotten a HUGE boost.

Librarians haven't lost any effectiveness.

The only real loss to the DW is the loss of Wound Allocation BS.

Delivering them to battle has become easier:
Summoning has become a viable option.
Deep Strike is more reliable.
Soladins are arguably even better in Sieze ground missions because they are resilient scoring units that can deep strike and drop accurate blast markers on enemies.

To be fair, since I dusted off the old metal GK models, I've loved Paladins, and I'll be damned if I won't find a way to make them work in the new system.

junk wrote:To get back to the OP's intention for this thread;

I'm not totally in agreement that Draigowing is 'dead'. All of the elements contributing to the familiar cry that "Paladins are OP" still exist:

2+/5++ (with armor group differentiation in CC from Staves, Swords)
WS 5 (which is arguably even better than it was before)
Psycannons are still Fantastic Weapons
FNP Is still great
Stormbolters are still great
Incinerators are even better
Holocaust is improved
Hammerhand hasn't lost value.
Against most enemies, force weapons are still good for +1W

Draigowing features (in some cases) Stormravens, which have gotten a HUGE boost.

Librarians haven't lost any effectiveness.

The only real loss to the DW is the loss of Wound Allocation BS.

Delivering them to battle has become easier:
Summoning has become a viable option.
Deep Strike is more reliable.
Soladins are arguably even better in Sieze ground missions because they are resilient scoring units that can deep strike and drop accurate blast markers on enemies.

To be fair, since I dusted off the old metal GK models, I've loved Paladins, and I'll be damned if I won't find a way to make them work in the new system.

Thank you for bringing things back on track.

In regards to paladins, there are a few things that really mean trouble for this army if this rule set goes through

1) wound allocation. This is the real reason paladins are so good, so you really can't underestimate it. New rules mean that you will be losing paladins far faster than we do now.

2) "Alpha striking". If paladins are stuck in a combat, and another unit manages to charge them, that unit is now initiative 10. Combined with the new wound allocation and you will have very short, brutal fights where I wouldn't expect the paladins to last long.

All of the other points you mention are just as much of a boost to any other style of GK army, and more so because they won't face the paladin's negatives.

The real problem is that draigowing is a small, elite style army that only works in 5th edition because its so damn tough to kill any of them before they smash your face in. On top of that, no one wants to assault them unless its to hold them back for a turn. In 6th, shooting will be way more deadly to them and I would consider charging them with just about any cc type unit, so long as someone else hit them first. Try surviving a full ork mob hitting you like that in combination with the wound allocation rules, and then realize that they get to shoot at you after the fight.

Point is, there simply won't be enough paladins on the board to survive that kind of fight, even if they do still stomp face for the first few rounds of combat and shooting.

Well, Draigowing has certainly been nerfed as all Paladins belong to the same wound group. In opposition to this Nobz have not been nerfed in the same way since they can generate up to 4 wound groups.

Draigowing features (in some cases) Stormravens, which have gotten a HUGE boost.

I've not yet read the vehicle part. What's the deal here?

Do all Paladins belong to the same armour group? Sword = 4++ saves, Staff = 2++ saves.

Maybe not at range, but definitely in melee.

SJ

I haven't really looked over the leak but how are purifiers now?

GK in general looks like it's going to remain a top tier army. Both Shooting and Assault have gotten a boost in 6e.

While force weapons are less awesomesauce against big monsters, they still deal 2w in most cases, hammers are still wrecking balls.

Assault 2 is negligible compared to Rapid fire now, so storm bolters aren't the MASSIVE upgrade they used to be from bolters.

However Paladins and Purifiers are still murder in CC and very capable in shooting. The fact that Assaulting out of deep strike is now available, the fact that the entire army can deep strike is huge, and the removal of Deep Strike Mishaps is also a boon.

Assaults are resolved faster now, which works out in favor of our NFW wielding knights.

Incinerators have become amazing - providing extra killyness during an assault as well as gaining an extra 3" range.

If I'm reading correctly, a Paladin with a Psycannon/Sword will get 4 attacks on the charge, 5 if there's a banner in the squad; which seems completely insane.

Purifiers seem to have remained the same versatile and effective troops they've always been.

People are going back and forth regarding the effectiveness of Mechanized MSU armies... Rhinos/Razorbacks have moderately improved thanks to Tank Shock becoming incredible, but using them as a suicide transports has become more dangerous, as transporting squads has become riskier.

Cleansing Flame is still great. Fortitude is still great.
I can't stress enough how great incinerators and psycannons are, and with defensive fire actions, a psilencer isn't a terrible weapon either.

Because GK is a great balance of Shooting and Assault, it benefits from almost every change; except the aformention lost of wound allocation bulls*** that i've always hated anyway.

The ubiquitous psyfleman is still a monster, the dreadknight is even more terrifying now that it can assault after a shunt... GK has nothing to fear from 'schrodinger's ruleset'.

What's the deal with incinerators now.?

jeffersonian000 wrote:Do all Paladins belong to the same armour group? Sword = 4++ saves, Staff = 2++ saves.

Maybe not at range, but definitely in melee.

SJ

Well, it seems to be possible to form several armor groups with Paladins: 2+/5++, 2+/4++, and 2+/2++.

Unfortunately I think patch up would still screw you though.

even if GK were nerfed, nothing I've seen would indicate they would fall below top teir, I don't think there's anything to worry about; they'll still be heavy hitters they are now.

junk wrote:GK in general looks like it's going to remain a top tier army. Both Shooting and Assault have gotten a boost in 6e.

While force weapons are less awesomesauce against big monsters, they still deal 2w in most cases, hammers are still wrecking balls.

Assault 2 is negligible compared to Rapid fire now, so storm bolters aren't the MASSIVE upgrade they used to be from bolters.

However Paladins and Purifiers are still murder in CC and very capable in shooting. The fact that Assaulting out of deep strike is now available, the fact that the entire army can deep strike is huge, and the removal of Deep Strike Mishaps is also a boon.

Assaults are resolved faster now, which works out in favor of our NFW wielding knights.

Incinerators have become amazing - providing extra killyness during an assault as well as gaining an extra 3" range.

If I'm reading correctly, a Paladin with a Psycannon/Sword will get 4 attacks on the charge, 5 if there's a banner in the squad; which seems completely insane.

Purifiers seem to have remained the same versatile and effective troops they've always been.

People are going back and forth regarding the effectiveness of Mechanized MSU armies... Rhinos/Razorbacks have moderately improved thanks to Tank Shock becoming incredible, but using them as a suicide transports has become more dangerous, as transporting squads has become riskier.

Cleansing Flame is still great. Fortitude is still great.
I can't stress enough how great incinerators and psycannons are, and with defensive fire actions, a psilencer isn't a terrible weapon either.

Because GK is a great balance of Shooting and Assault, it benefits from almost every change; except the aformention lost of wound allocation bulls*** that i've always hated anyway.

The ubiquitous psyfleman is still a monster, the dreadknight is even more terrifying now that it can assault after a shunt... GK has nothing to fear from 'schrodinger's ruleset'.

Well I wouldn't take the rules for granted, written in stone. The document is far from being well written - some say not by a native AE or BE.

Ok, so I skimmed the "rules" because I was bored. My brief thoughts.

From the part of the leak on transports, it seems like camping inside a transport and shooting out of fire points has been majorly, majorly nerfed. Reduced range down to 18 inches, and if the transport moves only one guy can fire out of it. I think this makes some henchmen lists cry.

junk wrote:Assault 2 is negligible compared to Rapid fire now, so storm bolters aren't the MASSIVE upgrade they used to be from bolters.

Where are you getting this from? The weapon example under Rapid Fire was listed as Rapid Fire 2, whereas a bolter later on in the leaked rulebook is listed as Rapid Fire 1. There is still a big difference between Rapid Fire 1, and Storm Bolters! Not the least of which is SBs give +1 attack on the charge. That little rule plus power weapons giving 5++ in CC, buffs Grey Knights pretty damn well if you ask me.

GK's weapons are all two-handed, I don't think they can get +1A from another CCW.

apple1988218 wrote:GK's weapons are all two-handed,

Except they aren't. Power-armoed guys with heavy weapons, yes. Otherwise no.

Sure most of the arms in the PAGK kit are modeled as two hands holding the sword, but there are bits that are modeled as one handed as well. The rules don't claim they are two handed, and if we went on how they were modeled, rich jack asses would buy up all of the one handed sword arms to gain a massive competitive advantage.