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nosferatu1001 wrote:Have read the codex

The best part of that is that youa re totally contradicting the FAQ you claim to have read.

FAQ wrote:Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed. In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.”

So, we can work out two things from this:

1) Dedicated Transports are part of the platoon
2) Non-dedicated transports are not

So, your answer was presumably "no", and you are still wrong

Keep going, your arguments just get better

You can only workout #2. You still lack any rules or FAQ that allow you to include Designated Transports as part of the platoon.

They only give one "instead" condition; there are no other alternatives. You are part of the platoon, or you are in a non-dedicated transport and are not part of the platoon

No excluded middle fallacy here.

I see no "instead" anywhere in the FAQ quote and you putting it in quotation marks shows that you are looking for implication where it does not exist.

The FAQ addresses and only addresses the Infantry Platoon as it pertains to deployment. You have no direction to also include Dedicated Transports in that instruction. Lack of specific does not override the the general rule for Dedicated Transports and deployment in mission specific deployment restrictions and/or allowances.

You are are trying to reverse engineer the last sentence to include Dedicated Transports as being part of the Infantry Platoon. That is not how the rules are played.

Just for clarification, this does not make the platoon count as 1 killpoint. And this is only for DoW right?

Platoons already count as 1 unit for deploying acording to IG codex, iirc.

As Chimera rule is writen, 'But otherwise functions as a seperate unit' does that technicaly mean that you can take one without an infantry squad? Its optional to make it a dedicated transport?

Heres an example, an army list:
------------------------------
HQ-
LC- everythin

Troop-

Vets- stuffed animals CHIMERA
Vets- resses cups CHIMERA
CHIMERA
CHIMERA
--------------------------

Ok, so here^^ we have our army list, and there are more chimeras than troop chices. Is this possable? The way the chimera rules are worded it makes me think that you can do what i just listed (minus the stuffed animals and reeses cups). Meerly stating that the dedicated transport is an OPTION, but not REQUIRED to take the chimera.

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:Just for clarification, this does not make the platoon count as 1 killpoint. And this is only for DoW right?

Platoons already count as 1 unit for deploying acording to IG codex, iirc.

As Chimera rule is writen, 'But otherwise functions as a seperate unit' does that technicaly mean that you can take one without an infantry squad? Its optional to make it a dedicated transport?

Heres an example, an army list:
------------------------------
HQ-
LC- everythin

Troop-

Vets- stuffed animals CHIMERA
Vets- resses cups CHIMERA
CHIMERA
CHIMERA
--------------------------

Ok, so here^^ we have our army list, and there are more chimeras than troop chices. Is this possable? The way the chimera rules are worded it makes me think that you can do what i just listed (minus the stuffed animals and reeses cups). Meerly stating that the dedicated transport is an OPTION, but not REQUIRED to take the chimera.

The platoon only counts as 1 unit for DoW (or similar mission) deployment purposes or reserve rolls, it's still plenty of kill points.
Previously, a lot of RAW folks read "counts as one troops choice" as not being applicable in DoW, since you deploy units, not choices.
No, you cannot take a Chimera with no squad. You'll notice it has no independent entry on the FOC, and therefore cannot be taken on its own. It MUST be a dedicated transport attached to another unit.

Going back to the main argument, if the Chimera is not a part of the platoon, it does not roll with the rest of the platoon for reserves. And Al'rahem's Chimeras don't outflank. And both of these are incorrect statements.

copper.talos wrote:Where does it say that in the composition of the platoon is 0-X chimeras? I see infantry squads, heavy weapons etc but no chimeras.

Under Infantry Squad. Dedicated Transports. Or do you really think GW should list all the stats for a ded transport in every unit entry that can take it. Just because they put the entry for the DT elsewhere does no mean it is not part of the force org slot with the unit for which it is purchased. The main rules point at this by telling us that a DT counts as the same type of Force Org as the unit it is purchased for.
Saying it's not part of the platoon is like saying that a the second half of a combat squadded Marine squad is not longer part of a Tac squad (or whatever the original squad was). Bottom line. the DT is bought from the Platoon pages, from the entries for the PCS or Inf Squad. And you really wnt to try and say it's not part of the Platoon? yeah, right.

BR - so you're claiming that the dedicated transport for a platoon infantry squad isnt a member of the Platoon?

Really?

Brother Ramses wrote:I see no "instead" anywhere in the FAQ quote and you putting it in quotation marks shows that you are looking for implication where it does not exist.

FAQ wrote:Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed. In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.”

What does that have to do with DoW?

Interesting, another reason to hate DoW.

Agreed that the DT are part of the platoon though.

Nothing in the rules support this. On the contrary both BRB and codex:IG characterize DT as separate units.

As per the FAQ

"Page 96 – Infantry Platoon, second sentence
Change to “Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place
of a single unit in missions that limit the number units
that can be deployed. In addition when making a
reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole
Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are
embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead
rolled for separately.”"


Note roll once for the "whole" platoon, than it notes that non dedicated transports and units inside must be rolled seperately.

That part is after "when making a reserve or outflanking roll..." so it has nothing to do with DoW deployment.

Secondly where is the rule that mention that DT are part of the platoon? I am not an IG player and I might have missed it. Plz give me a pg number.

1) It states DT are part of the platoon (no excluded middle fallacy, before you attempt to claim it) because you make ONE roll for the platoon, APART from those in NON-dedicated transports.

So chimera are part of the platoon

You then look at the first part of the FAQ, and you find out that that means they count as one unit FOR DEPLOYMENT PURPOSES ONLY.

Copper I'd like to be on your side, to me though it looks wrong. However cheesy/broken, as a Guard player who likes a lil horde with his artillery, I wouldn't touch it.

It's the "roll once for each infantry platoon" part that is making this discussion. If the Chimera is not part of the platoon than it should be rolled for seperately. However it doesn't tell us that.

Chimeras are bought for the Infantry squad. Infantry squad is part of the platoon. Hence so are the chimeras. The
Faq would agree with this. Seeing as the WHOLE platoon is rolled for as one. Unless its a non dedicated transport. Use common sense people. And that seperate unit is so that the chimera doesnt have to remain within 2in of the parent unit. And so it gives an additional kp.

It in fact states the complete opposite.

Before this FAQ I have never seen ANYONE EVER try to claim a dedicated chimera was not part of the platoon. Ever. It is only since this came up that peopel are now trying to somehow find a way that they arent a member of the platoon.

Which is crazy, when you think about it. Oh, and Copper - stop saying that DT are a separate unit. We know this, oddly enough. The point is the FAQ makes the platoon *count as* a single unit - ALL members of it. Obviously every member is normally a separate unit, but this FAQ changes the rules.

Yes but where does it say that DTs are part of the platoon? The platoon's entry doesn't say so and all the DTs are separate units from the units that make the platoon.

Also DTs don't take the same FOC slot with the unit that bought them. They just don't take any FOC slot at all. So you can't claim that because they are in the sme slot as the platoon they deploy as one...

PS people never had problems with chimeras in DoW before. That's why this issue came up now...

copper.talos wrote:Yes but where does it say that DTs are part of the platoon? The platoon's entry doesn't say so and all the DTs are separate units from the units that make the platoon.

Also DTs don't take the same FOC slot with the unit that bought them. They just don't take any FOC slot at all. So you can't claim that because they are in the sme slot as the platoon they deploy as one...

In the IG codex under Infantry squad and Platoon Command Squad where it lists transport optinos. Nuff said?

Wow, just wow

The FAQ says that. The fact you select the DT as a unit dedicated to the platoon says that. You are still entirely ignorign the FAQ and explanations on it - so you are now simply trolling.

DTs take the same FOC slot as the unit they were selected for - p87

If it wasnt a seperate unit from the one that bought it, it would have to stay within 2in of the parent unit. And since it is the same unit it cant tansport the unit. And youd have to blow up both it and kill the squad to get one kill point.

PG 99 of the IG codex: These vehicles do not use up any FOC selections. So this is what's valid concerning IG DTs.

And you are deliberately misquoting the BRB. BRB PG 87: DTs sit outside the Force Organization Structure. That's low even for you nos...

Yes. If you take one it doesnt use up one of your foc alotments. It is still part of your platoon. Obvious troll is obvious.

You fail to show the rule that make DTs part of the platoon and yet you still claim it does. Obvious troll is obvious...

The dc is selected with, and bought for a squad. Its a unit upgrade for the Infantry Squad. It can only start with its parent unit deployed inside. FAQ states that dc are rolled for with the platoon. Giving credit to they are part of the platoon. There is no stated rule saying that dc are part of the platoon. So its not RAW. But using the above evidence, it is obvious RAI.

Seperate unit is mentioned so it can actually function as a transport.

Dosent take up a foc is so it doesnt take one of your foc alottments.

Saying that they are part of the platoon won't make them.
PG 96 of IG codex: Infantry Platoon. Composition: 1 platoon command squad, 2-5 infantry squads, 0-5 heavy weapon squads, 0-2 special weapon squads and 0-1 coscript squads.

Do you see any chimeras? Any refference to DTs? The faq is irrelevant to platoon composition. DTs are selected with a unit but they are seperate units from then on. Since they are separate units from what is included in the platoon they are separate from the platoon too. It needs an errata to fix that, not a faq.

And anyway with your way of thinking an SM player could deploy 2 SM squads inside 2 rhinos in DoW. Which ofcourse is illegal.

Obvious troll is obvious

Page 87, multiple unit selections. Not using up a FOC slot doesnt mean it isnt a part of a slot. It even states so in the BRB. TROLL

The FAQ explains exactly why dedicated transports are part of the platoon. See that last bit which explains that only nondedicate transports are outside of the platoon? Got that yet? doesnt take much effort, and has been shown to you many times.

Wow, you really are a troll now. Platoon DOES NOT EQUAL ANYTHING IN ANY OTHER CODEX. It is unique. This has NOTHING to do with space marines, so your strawman is just your LATEST Fallacy.

Chimera are RAW part of the platoon. Done

Nos said it better

Oh, and just to point out to Talos one last time - the FAQ is ONLY concerned with *deployments* that restrict what you can deploy by unit, and has no effect on anything other than the Platoon.

A rhino for a SM squad is STILL a separate unit, as it isnt a Platoon. Understand that yet?

DTs count as being from the same FO category (not slot) as the unit that bought them. They are definitely not in the same slot. So in DoW a chimera bought by an infantry squad count as a troop but still it's not the same troop/unit.

Keep setting new records on falsifying BRB rules nos. I am sure in the end you'll end up with a BRB of your own...