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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Oklahoma City, Ok.

copper.talos wrote:
kirsanth wrote:Leaving out the fact that IG (platoons) can deploy multiple units in the place of a single unit.


Platoons deploy multiple units, but only those units that are defined in the platoon composition.

@alarmingrick it should be easy then to post a fewe rules. Kirsanth has tried already.


Not sure if you're familiar with an old American saying:
"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink."
You've been shown numerous times how your arguement was incorrect by much smarter
folks than myself. Noone can make you believe the facts presented to you.

"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC

"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC

 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




@ kirsanth Nope, the platoon page says you can buy a chimera as a dedicated transport. That means you must follow dedicated transport rules. None of this rules say that transports become part of the unit that bought it. They operate and count as different units in all respects.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/20 23:22:49


 
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

copper.talos wrote:They operate and count as different units in all respects.



VERY NO!!!

The asinine repetition of irrelevance is not helping you.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/01/20 23:23:56


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

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Rough Rider with Boomstick




Ohio, USA

It's not arbitrary. There is a legitiamate association / attachment between a PIS and its DT. p87 BRB

There is also a legitiamte association / attachment between a IP and a PIS. p92 BRB, p96 IGC.

The question that needs more examination is "is this association / attachment a transitive property?

Ven diagram? Group theory? Org chart? I could paint this picture a number of different ways. And because I COULD interpret it a number of different ways, if its not clear, I should not consider it transitive. 40k is a permissive rules system. Not an exclusive one. (The rules are primarily based on telling you what you can do, not what you can't)

"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
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@kirsanth Well if BRB in multiple unit choice in pg 92 says so, I guess it weighs more than a "NO" from you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/20 23:25:06


 
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

copper.talos wrote: I guess
Found the problem.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
copper.talos wrote:@kirsanth Well if BRB in multiple unit choice in pg 92 says so, I guess it weighs more than a "NO" from you.
The NO is regarding you thinking being different units matters at all.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/01/20 23:26:41


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

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Why don't you quote the last sentence of multiple unit choice in BRB pg 92 then?
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick




Ohio, USA

@copper, I beg you, either stop arguing or stop taking it personally.

I have responded to the inclusive MUC argument above. Please let me know if I need to clarify.

I actually do see the MUC argument as persuasive, just not conclusive. IMO it's a variant of specific > general with “Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed" > "Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/20 23:33:02


"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action." 
   
Made in gb
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Yep, theres beating a dead horse and there's bringing up "but but but they're different units!!!!!!", as if that is at all relevant to a discussion of a Platoon which is ALWAYS composed of multiple units.

Copper has been proven wrong at every. single. turn, over the last now 10 pages.

Luckily the vast majority of people will be playing the correct way, and i'll communicate with other UK TOs about this.
   
Made in us
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Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

copper.talos wrote:Why don't you quote the last sentence of multiple unit choice in BRB pg 92 then?
Because the IG have a rule that lets them deploy separate units as a single unit choice.

Still.

They are different units.
The fact that you belabor that point does not prove anything but your unwillingness to understand the problem.

Editing to add:
In case you ignored posts not about rules (AS WELL), most everyone also agrees this is ridiculous.

But like the old Tyranid SitW FAQ, rules are rules.
Not liking them does not change them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/20 23:32:34


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

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Pacific NW

copper.talos wrote:Of course this has been answered before. 3 times by me I think. To keep it short, the last sentence of the multiple unit choice is:
"Apart from being bought as a single choice, this units operate and count as separate unit in all respects".
There you go. The multiple unit choice rule is utilised when you buy units and only then. After that it has no effect in game at all.


By your definition then, Infantry Squads aren't part of the platoon either. After all, they are completely separate units in all respects.

You seem to be missing the point here copper.talos: What is the Imperial Guard choice from the army list?

The answer is: The Infantry Platoon. That is what the Imperial Guard player is selecting for his Troop Choice. You can't take the Chimera without the Platoon, so its part of the Platoon choice, which means it gets the benefit.


   
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Ohio, USA

think of it this way "friends" vs "family"

The IP is the parent. The PIS is the child. The PIS marries the DT. The IP and the DT are now family.

OR

The IP is the parent. The PIS is the child. The PIS befriends the DT. The IP and the DT are not necessarily friends.


edit: Personally, I think the chimera is part of the platoon (RAI) but that I have yet to see a conclusive RAW argument for it.

I think people's interpretations are being clouded by the 3rd sentence in the new IG FAQ.
WARHAMMER 40,000 CODEX: IMPERIAL GUARD Official Update Version 1.1 (m2170011a_Imperial_Guard_FAQ_Version_1_1_January_2012.pdf) says, "Page 96 – Infantry Platoon, second sentence Change to “Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed. In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.”

I see this as referring to Vendetta outflanking shenanigans. Maybe I am letting my personal experiences narrow my field of view.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/01/20 23:44:32


"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
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“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
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cedar rapids, iowa

Multiple things in this thread are making me shake my head. (And yes I read it all lol)

As long as a unit is embarked it confers abilities and creates a single roll if the transport is "dedicated".

If your platoon has chimeras, and Al', you can outflank with them as long as you are embarked in the transports. Page 94 BRB covers this.

As for deployment, why would they have the statement, "The only limitation of a DT is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (Plus any IC)." on page 67 if you could NOT in fact deploy them together?

1. So the Rule states, IF Unit is in DT it purchased and embarked in, THEN it may be deployed.

2. The outflank and scout rules in the BRB gives a precedence that DT's are treated as one unit if the unit is embarked inside them.

3. Under "TRANSPORT" in the platoon section it states they may take a dedicated transport. Page 97, left side half way down. It's an upgrade for the unit, it's part of the unit, it's not a Valkyrie or land raider.

NO WHERE does it say that dedicated transports are rolled for separately UNLESS the unit is not embarked in them.

How has this thread reached 9 pages?

Any unit that is part of Al's unit MUST outflank, it gives you zero choice in the matter. Independent characters are units that may join other units before deployment. Al is NOT conferring the special outflank ability onto every model in his squad, he is FORCING his platoon to outflank by special rule. You have zero choice, if you are in Al's unit, you are outflanking.

 
   
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Al's unit is a lark.

The issue is simply regarding platoon's deployment in Dawn of War (type deployment).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/20 23:47:34


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

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This has reached 10 pages because of the other half of the argument that you didn't cover: deployment during Dawn of War. The minority (according to the poll in the other thread) is stating that the Chimeras taken as dedicated transports are not part of the Infantry Platoon. If they aren't part of the Infantry Platoon, they don't benefit from the Imperial Guard Eratta update that allows you to put a whole Platoon on the table in place of one unit of troops. Transports themselves are "units of troops" so you can't have all of them on the table then.

The majority (again,according to the poll in the other thread) disagrees with this. Looks like the Multiple Unit Choices rule is the savior, though one person is arguing that its not, even though his interpretation would mean Infantry Squads are not part of the Platoon they were purchased for...

   
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Woodbridge, VA

sfshilo wrote:
As long as a unit is embarked it confers abilities and creates a single roll if the transport is "dedicated".

If your platoon has chimeras, and Al', you can outflank with them as long as you are embarked in the transports. Page 94 BRB covers this.


Only if they are part of the platoon (which I agree they are). Otherwise, we have to note that per the Outflank rules, Al's Outflank does NOT confer to dedicated transports, only outflank provided by the parent unit having Infiltrate or Scout is conferred to DTs.

Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
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Made in us
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Ohio, USA

cowmonaut wrote:The majority (again,according to the poll in the other thread) disagrees with this. Looks like the Multiple Unit Choices rule is the savior, though one person is arguing that its not, even though his interpretation would mean Infantry Squads are not part of the Platoon they were purchased for...


I am not that person, and I also disagree. Incidently, I voted Yes in that poll, but as I said, my opinion isn't nearly as important as RAW. I have yet to see a conclusive or even very strong argument that makes DT chimeras part of the IP. The MUC with MUCs argument is not bad. I do like it and think it lends weight to the the PRO position. I do not find it conclusive or overwhelmingly compelling on it's own or with any combination of the previous arguments.

"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
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“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action." 
   
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cowmonaut wrote:Looks like the Multiple Unit Choices rule is the savior, though one person is arguing that its not, even though his interpretation would mean Infantry Squads are not part of the Platoon they were purchased for...


You got it all wrong. Platoon has a rule that lets you deploy all the units mentioned in its composition entry as one unit, even in DoW. The multiple unit choice rule has nothing to do with it. Those infantry squads are allowed to be in the platoons composition, so they benefit from its rules. The chimera is not mentioned in the platoons composition. It's simply not included. That's why a chimera is different to an infantry squad regarding platoons and that's why you need a concrete ruling to allow a chimera to be part of a platoon.
   
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Change the name of infantry platoon in the FAQ to another multiple choice unit.

"Each Tactical Squad is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed."

So we know that a tactical squad is up to 2 combat squad units. The tactical squad entry allows you to buy a Rhino or a Razorback, but the Rhino or Razorback is not a tactical squad member.

So we know that an infantry platoon is up to 17(?) infantry units. 6 of the infantry units allow you to buy a Chimera, but the Chimera is not an infantry platoon member.

This seems related to whether an empty chimera bought for Al'Raheem must outflank. "Any unit that is part of Al'Raheem's infantry platoon must outflank." Is the chimera part of Al'Raheem's infantry platoon? Or is the chimera attached to an infantry squad, while the infantry squad is part of Al'Raheem's infantry platoon. 'Attached to' and 'part of' are not exactly the same thing to me.

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North Jersey

I have never heard of MUC before this thread, and I don't have my pocket bgb on me atm, so apologies for being a bit behind.

Does the MUC make the dt part of the unit or simply treat it as such?

BTW, I am simply arguing semantics here; I see chimes as being not members but treated as if they are in all respects.

-cgmckenzie


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no idea

cgmckenzie wrote:Does the MUC make the dt part of the unit or simply treat it as such?

Neither.

A platoon is a muc, each component unit is a seperate unit (blobs etc notwithstanding).
Any unit at all, that takes a dedicated transport, is a muc, they are still seperate units.

A unit that purchases a dedicated transport is attached to it.

The "yes" argument seeks to try to use this attachment into a true tieing together of these different elements in the platoon structure.
The "no" argument seeks to try to sever this link.

Simplistic resume!!!

The thing that irks me about the "yes" argument is, I think a possibly unconscious attempt at taking the double standard for ig platoons, in dow deployment, from the faq and imposing it on a units "attachment" to its transport.
So, if a platoon unit purchases a transport, because a unit is part of a muc, so must the transport.

The faq does not say this, nor does the rulebook. Any muc could claim the same treatment by this logic, but it demonstrably can't.
Muc's simply do not have a different set of rules anywhere in regard to their transports.
Thus the transports are part of the platoon argument.

As to that, I would also say no, they aren't.
The dt is not attached to the platoon, it is attached (dedicated) to its unit, the unit is part of the platoon.
Note, that when I say "attached" here, it is meant in the same way as the book uses it.
Ie, they are seperate in all regards and so, quite clearly, one is not a part of the other.

cowmonaut wrote:Looks like the Multiple Unit Choices rule is the savior, though one person is arguing that its not,

Muc, for yes, part of a platoon, is in tatters, imo.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/21 09:24:26


You wart-ridden imbeciles! 
   
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North Jersey

So, the MuC allows for 2+ units to be selected for a single slot?

Ok, I guess that makes sense, but I am still surprised that I have made it through almost all of 5th without ever hearing about these MuC things.

But, if I am understanding it properly, the MuC still has nothing to do with this because dedicated transports shouldn't fall under their spell; DT has their own set of rules about FoC.

-cgmckenzie


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Ohio, USA

There's not a lot of MUC examples, but there are probably more than we think. Other than IPs and DTs, the only one I run into regularly is the Ravenwing Attack Squadron for the DA.
It's a group of Bikes, an Attack Bike, and a Land Speeder that all together counts as one Fast Attack choice. You deploy it all at the same time, but not necessarily in coherency, and it acts as separate units for the rest of the game. It doesn't help us much with our discussion because not of its options include DT. Maybe someone else knows annother MUC that does?

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“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
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no idea

cgmckenzie wrote:So, the MuC allows for 2+ units to be selected for a single slot?

Situationally.

Lets say I have a vet squad in a chimera and attach a lone ic to them, this is 1+1 troops and 1 hq.
That's it. I can't deploy anything else.
The vets + chimera are a muc.

Before the faq, you could only have deployed say for eg, 2 squads and a comp command sec. The same 1+1+1.

It is a fact, that the com sec + squads are an muc, they always have been.
This in no-way gives them alternate rules in regard to their transports.

cgmckenzie wrote:But, if I am understanding it properly, the MuC still has nothing to do with this because dedicated transports shouldn't fall under their spell; DT has their own set of rules about FoC.

They do and yet they don't.
A "normal" unit, will be transformed into a muc by selecting a transport.

This means the unit is attached to the transport and vice versa.
Being attached in this manner, means the transport is unique to that unit, not any other formation there may be.

Even so, they are seperate units, the infantry is not compelled to be embarked upon their transport.
Attachment = determining the foc category of the vehicle and preventing other units from deploying in the vehicle. That's it.

A company command section, is attached to its chim in exactly the same manner as a platoon squad is attached to theirs. There is no-difference. There are no different rules here.

Dow is governed by the deployment of units, not foc's and we are specifically told that a dedicated transport is a 100% used up unit slot for this purpose.
This is despite the vehicle being attached to the unit. Hence, attached becomes a non-issue in this regard.

Again, back to the comp comm sec.
Its about units, not foc and attachment is unimportant.
You cannot deploy it with a chimera, as that is 2 hq units.

The faq gives you permission to deploy a platoon as if it were 1 unit.

So, no-matter how many units make up the platoon, they get placed and "eat" 1 troops unit slot.
When it comes to placing a single chimera down, the rules for dedicated transports, demand that this is an independent troops unit slot.
A full sized platoon + 1 single chimera = 2 troops slots gone

foolishmortal wrote:There's not a lot of MUC examples, but there are probably more than we think.

But there are tons of them.
Any unit with a dedicated transport = muc!!!

As has been demonstrated, being an muc gives you no different options concerning transports.

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fuusa wrote:
foolishmortal wrote:There's not a lot of MUC examples, but there are probably more than we think.

But there are tons of them.
Any unit with a dedicated transport = muc!!!

As has been demonstrated, being an muc gives you no different options concerning transports.


I should have been more specific. There are not a lot of MUCs that are not just MUCs for list construction / force org purposes but for deployment purposes as well. The Ravenwing Attack Squad and the Infantry Platoon are the only two I can think of currently. How do SM combat squads work in DoW? Can I split two TAC squads into four 5-man groups as my 2 Troops choices?

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2 combat squads is 2 units. Thus you only get 1 tactical squad in DoW if you want to combat squad.
   
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GW has just reversed that as well in the latest round of FAQ updates.

Multiple Unit Choices has been a fundamental and important rule throughout 5th edition, and was always nice and clear. Every codex has entries which allow you to select multiple units using a single Force Org slot, but those units are always treated as being separate units. Whether we're talking about 2 or 3 Sanguinary Priests bought for a single Elite slot in Blood Angels, an IG Platoon consisting of a Platoon Command Section and two Infantry Squads, or just a Tactical Marine squad and their Rhino.

This has always been nice and clear and simple, and Dawn of War has also recognized this distinction, as the Dawn of War deployment specifically uses a squad of IG and their Chimera as the EXAMPLE of two Troops units, filling the allowed two Troops units which may be deployed in DoW.

Now in the latest round of FAQs GW has fundamentally altered this understanding. They now allow a Platoon of IG to deploy as if they were actually one unit. And they allow a Combat-Squadded unit of SM to deploy as if they were one unit. Each of these is an explicit FAQ ruling in their respective new FAQs. This is a substantial change to the way Dawn of War works, and a significant boost to those codices.

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New SM FAQ says...

Q: When a unit of 10 Space Marines with the Combat
Squad special rule arrives from reserve as two combat
squads, can they move on from, or Deep Strike onto,
two different locations? (p51)
A: Yes.

Q: When Infiltrating a unit of 10 Space Marines with
the Infiltrate special rule, can both Combat Squads be
deployed in different locations? In addition, does this
still only count as a single deployment? (p51)
A: Yes to both questions.

I did not see an entry for a single TAC squad split into combat squads counting as a single troops choice for DoW. The 2nd Q/A is very interesting though, and would be relevant to DoW.

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It's that second FAQ you quoted. "Does this still only count as a single deployment". That only matters in DoW. The question has no other meaning in the game.

EDIT: You know what? I take that back. If both sides have Infiltrating units, you alternate placement of them. Okay, so SM DO NOT get to break DoW restrictions using Combat Squads. They're just saying that if you Infiltrate and Combat Squad, you infiltrate both halves at once for purposes of alternating units with your opponent. Okay, nice; that makes sense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/22 04:34:50


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Mannahnin wrote:It's that second FAQ you quoted. "Does this still only count as a single deployment". That only matters in DoW. The question has no other meaning in the game.

EDIT: You know what? I take that back. If both sides have Infiltrating units, you alternate placement of them. Okay, so SM DO NOT get to break DoW restrictions using Combat Squads. They're just saying that if you Infiltrate and Combat Squad, you infiltrate both halves at once for purposes of alternating units with your opponent. Okay, nice; that makes sense.


Single deployment does not equal 'single unit'. So Marines combat quads each still count as a separate unit in DoW deployments.

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