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Troll is obvious

Still failing to understand that FAQ yet?

You have seen the word "instead", which delineates the DT as being part of the platoon - yes?
BTW - none of this is a discussion on what a unit is OUTSIDE of this FAQ, which is only concerned with Platoons

Your inabilty to tell the difference between the two must make Taloshammer 40k very, very different from the actual game.

Wow, not falsifying any BRB rules in this post? This must be a 1st time for you. How does it feel being clean?

Personal attacks are not allowed on this board. Thanks! ~Manchu

For DT to be part of the platoon there is a need for errata. Faqs can't change that.

And even that faq you keep mentioning on and on doesn't say that DTs are deployed in DoW along with the platoon. are part of the platoon, or anything similar. It simply says that the platoon is deployed as one unit.

And that "instead" concerns reserves, not DoW deployment. When coming from reserves OF COURSE the units come embarked on the DTs. It's part of the DT rule.

actually they do say they're part of the platoon.

I had to read it a couple times as GW language is generally beyond me.

The FaQ says the Platoon, even gos on to state that the DT's are part of the platoon make one roll.

in the DoW one it states you may deploy a platoon as a single option. A platoon consists of all his merry men and their steel carriages in this case.

The platoon makes one roll for reserves and all DTs come with their units embarked in then, just the same as a rhino comes from reserves with an SM squad in them. They don't need to be part of the platoon for that. That is a basic DT rule.

Except not, otherwise it would be the same for non-dedicated transports.

SM's in a Landraider
BA's in a stormraven
Etc

Whilst I appreciate that it's much more fun and amusing to just insult other posters and make "subtle" digs at them as they have the temerity to disagree with your understanding of Gw's formidably watertight and crystal clear rules writing than to, you know, actually just discuss and debate the relevant issue and see if we can draw a consensus on the issue, it would be gratefully appreciated if you would actually do this.

Ta.

@jdjamesdean@mail.com

A. 1 Dire Avenger squad can come from reserves on a wave serpent (DT) with 1 reserve roll

B.1 Dire Avenger squad can come from reserves on a falcon (non DT) with 1 reserve roll

An infantry platoon can have its units on DTs and non DTs. So is a mix of cases A & B. So they split them when they arrive from reserves. Where does this implicate that DTs become part of the platoon?

I would like to add this quote for the debate.

Pg67 "Sometimes a unit entry in a codex will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These 'dedicated transports' do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart. Other vehicles may also have a transport capacity, but they are chosen seperately as normal and occupy a force organisation chart slot of their own (for example, the mighty space marine land raider).

Directing your attention to the "Sometimes a unit entry in a codex will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit." part. I'm still very new to the game and want to see what the consensus is on this issue.

Copper - so your contention is that an EMPTY chimera would not come on as part of the platoon that bought it, in the same reserve roll?

Thats odd - when I see a platoon unit buy a DT I see it as part of the platoon.

So does everyone I have *ever* played with who plays IG - its so blindingly obvious to everyone.

Just not you.

Why is this being discussed?

“Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place
of a single unit in missions that limit the number units
that can be deployed."

Chimeras are bought as part of an Infantry Platoon, same as Heavy Weapons Squads, Special Weapons Squads and Conscripts Squads.
Come to think of it, Chimeras are bought same as Heavy Weapons TEAMS and Special Weapons within individual Infantry Squads.

The fact that the Chimera is treated as a separate unit during the game is completely irrelevant, as such an argument would exclude HWS, SWS and Conscripts as well.
Is that the argument being presented?!?

The FAQ text does not exclude anything from its application.
In order to exclude anything from being affected by this FAQ it would have to specifically state that.

While I find this broken beyond belief and will have to house-rule it within my gaming-group (or wait for GW to do it for us), there really isn't any doubt as to what the FAQ actually says.

@nos Basic reserve rules. BRB pg 94 Preparing reserves 4th paragraph. Both the unit transported and the transport arrive with a single reserve roll. Since they are seperate units you can have the transport come empty.

@steelmage99 read before posting. This has been answered already. Hint: check if the platoon composition mentions chimeras at all.

Nothing of what I bring up has been answered yet.

You are going down the "It Is Treated As A Separate Unit"-path.
Why are the DT bought as an upgrade for the Infantry Squads treated any differently than a HWS.

And what does the composition have to do with anything? And does that argument hold up when you apply it to other entries in the IG codex?

copper.talos wrote:@nos Basic reserve rules. BRB pg 94 Preparing reserves 4th paragraph. Both the unit transported and the transport arrive with a single reserve roll. Since they are seperate units you can have the transport come empty.

@steelmage99 read before posting. This has been answered already. Hint: check if the platoon composition mentions chimeras at all.

It includes infantry squads, which are apart of the platoon. Then we add in portugus' quote (thank you btw) where it specifically says "allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit." So I have an infantry squad which selects a chimera to be with it. It is no different than buying a commisar. Since it is selected with the infantry squad which is apart of the platoon how can it not be apart of the platoon?

They are selected with the unit and from then on are treated as separate units. They are not the same unit and they don't occupy the same FOC slot. These are basic traits of transports.

This DoW issue came up because of the faq. For the chimeras to be part of the platoon, they need to errata the platoon's composition, or the transport rules. But seriously now, do you think that deploying 10 chimeras in DoW is what was intended with that faq?

Luckily the FAQ doesn't talk about "unit", but rather the Infantry Platoon as a whole.

Have you ever checked what is a platoons composition? Hint there are no chimeras or other DTs in it.

And why should I care about the composition? Please, be specific.

Well in DoW you deploy 2 troops units and 1 HQ. So with platoon you can deloy the whole platoon as one unit. That platoon can only consist of the units described in the IG codex entry. All dedicated transport deploy as separate units and therefore count towards the 2 unit limitation as usual.

copper.talos wrote:Well in DoW you deploy 2 troops units and 1 HQ. So with platoon you can deloy the whole platoon as one unit. That platoon can only consist of the units described in the IG codex entry.

The Chimeras are certainly described in the IG IP codex entry. Or they are referenced to, which is quite enough...otherwise GW would have to describe every weapon, option and rule in the codex entries.

All dedicated transport deploy as separate units

As does HWS, SWS and Conscripts....what makes Chimeras any different?
Because they are Dedicated Transports on top of what other characteristics they have?

and therefore count towards the 2 unit limitation as usual.

I disagree...obviously.

copper.talos wrote:They are selected with the unit and from then on are treated as separate units. They are not the same unit and they don't occupy the same FOC slot. These are basic traits of transports.

This DoW issue came up because of the faq. For the chimeras to be part of the platoon, they need to errata the platoon's composition, or the transport rules. But seriously now, do you think that deploying 10 chimeras in DoW is what was intended with that faq?

Yes, I do. The intention was to allow you to deploy an entire platoon as a single troops choice. If you are deploying an entire platoon, then you can OF COURSE deploy the platoon's transports.

I certainly DON'T think that GW intended to make players deploy their mechanized platoons on foot, and force them to roll their Chimeras on next turn. That would be stupid, and since it isn't particularly supported by the language, I am going to go with the non-stupid (and much more supportable) interpretation. Anything I can buy as part of a platoon is part of a platoon, and since the whole platoon is deployed, that means THE WHOLE PLATOON IS DEPLOYED. For the whole platoon to deployed, EVERY PART of the platoon must be deployed. The Chimeras are an option, in the 'Infantry Platoon' section. That does manifestly indicate that they are part of the platoon. Hence, they can be deployed.

Platoon composition is made of units, not wargear or any other nonsense. All the units that compose a platoon are listed there. If it isn't in the composition, itsn't part of the platoon. .

copper.talos wrote:Platoon composition is made of units, not wargear or any other nonsense. All the units that compose a platoon are listed there. If it isn't in the composition, itsn't part of the platoon. .

A Chimera is a unit. It isn't wargear, or 'any other nonsense'.

It is also listed under the platoon entry.

I don't see the problem.

Here's a question; the unit composition for Kommandos says '5-15 Kommandos'. There is an option to purchase Boss Snikrot as an upgrade to the platoon.

Boos Snikrot is not listed under 'Unit Composition' as part of the unit. Does that mean that he ISN'T part of the unit? If so, how do you deploy a unit of Kommandos led by Boss Snikrot in DoW? Particularly since he's not an Independent Character, and so cannot be deployed EXCEPT with the unit?

If he is part of the unit, then we have solid precedent for models that are not covered under 'Unit Composition' but are purchased as upgrades for the unit being deployed together with the unit. How are Chimeras any different?

Seriously, just leave it - there is no point arguing with Copper, as he ignores any explanation given and pretends it doesnt exist.

A chimera is bought as part of the platoon, same as a commisar (who also isnt listed as part of the platoon composition), and is therefore part of the counts-as "unit" called "Platoon" when it comes to DoW. The FAQ talking about what happens when you have a Platoon in reserve simple confirms this - but of course, not to Copper, who apparently cannot comprehend what the FAQ covers.

Copper is the first person who has EVER tried to claim that a chimera is NOT part of the platoon, EVER. I have literally, in the what, 2 years of the IG codex?, seen anyone ever try to claim differently. This includes UK GT (GW and others) winners. People who know the game a HELL of a lot better than Talos. Yes, this is a fallacy (appeal to authority) but, after a while - credulity can only go so far.

Frankly, there is only one non-stupid way to look at this, and it isnt Coppers way. Not by a long shot.

@BeRzErKeR
Boss Snikrot does not have the rules that transports do. It is added to the unit following the kommando entry in the codex.
Platoons do not mention the chimeras at all in their composition although they are units. An infantry unit can get one but following the transport rules as normal. These rules don't make the transports part of the unit (as opposed to kommando-snikrot's entry) but instead they go to great length to emphasize that they are completely separate units. How could a separate unit to the infantry squad be one unit with their platoon?

I am inclined to agree with copper on chimeras not being part of the platoon(strict list of things in the platoon on pg 96 and no chimeras in the list) but they still come in DOW with the platoon as per the FAQ.

For all practical purposes, treat them as being in the platoon because they come in with the platoon(really the only point where this matters, actually) but they are still separate units not listed in the composition list.

So no, they are not part of the platoon, but they still act like they are in every way that matters.

I sorta want to get back into my guard...

-cgmckenzie

You still dont understand the FAQ, do you?

Every single entry in the platoon is, IN GAME, a separate unit. You see that 3 base HWT? Separate unit.

However the FAQ has changed the rules such that, WHEN DEPLOYING the Platoon, it COUNTS AS a single unit.

COUNTS AS

Now, as Chimera are part of the platoon, that means WHEN YOU DEPLOY they COUNT AS a single unit.

copper.talos wrote:@BeRzErKeR
Boss Snikrot does not have the deployment rules that transports do. It is added to the unit following the kommando entry in the codex.

Platoons do not mention the chimeras at all in their composition. An infantry unit can get one but following the transport rules as normal. These rules don't make the transports part of the unit (as opposed to kommando-snikrot's entry) but instead they go to great length to emphasize that they are completely separate units. How could a separate unit to the infantry squad be one unit with their platoon?

Because there are lots of separate units subsumed within the platoon.

Upgrade Characters (pick whichever one you like; Telion, Snikrot, Iron-hand Straken, whatever) give us precedent that tells us that models not listed in the Unit Composition can be deployed together with the unit, at least when they are selected as upgrades.

A Chimera is selected as an upgrade to an Infantry Squad. It is a Dedicated Transport, and is BOTH an upgrade to the unit AND a separate unit in it's own right.

The Platoon rules tell us that 2-5 Infantry Squads are included in the Platoon.

The FAW tells us that the whole Platoon, including ALL units that are a part of it, can be deployed together as a single Troops choice in DoW deployment.

I do not see any permission given to separate any unit from its upgrades. A Chimera is an upgrade to an Infantry Squad.

The rules for Dedicated Transports do say that they are a separate UNIT. They do NOT, however, say that they are a separate CHOICE on the FOC chart. Since the IG FAQ allows you to deploy an entire Troops CHOICE, including many different UNITS, and there is no specific exception made for the Chimeras (which are, remember, attached to the Infantry Squads as an upgrade as well as being a separate unit) nothing prevents you from deploying any Chimeras that you have purchased as part of the Platoon.

nosferatu1001 has it.

As utterly ridiculous as that is.

Until now it just never mattered.

cgmckenzie wrote:

I sorta want to get back into my guard...

-cgmckenzie

If I was a competitive gamer, I think I would seriously considering starting Guard just for this. Take an infantry-heavy army consisting of two maxed-out platoons with some vehicle support; in DoW missions, I get to have my heavy weapons all set up first turn and blow away a couple units with no return fire.

Oh, its completely absurd, and will likely spawn people actually taking Infantry platoons for a change, instead of just more melta/plasma vets.

Being able to saturate so much of the board in DoW is frankly crazy