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It isn't an upgrade, it is a dedicated transport. It seems like splitting hairs but the difference does matter. Upgrades do not add units to the game, they change units into better forms of themselves.

-cgmckenzie

It's in codex IG pg 89 under "unit composition".
A bit lower under "options" it says that upgrades in units are those listed under the "options" entry

Thankyou.

I am certainly leaning toward the idea that a transport is not an upgrade to the unit, despite it being "optional!!!"
Also, if the options section contains "all" of the upgrades available, that sounds convincing.

Has anyone ever seen al rehem and his platoon, outflank, when chimeras have come along, that were empty?

cgmckenzie wrote: Upgrades do not add units to the game

Prove it.

copper.talos wrote:It's in codex IG pg 89 under "unit composition".
A bit lower under "options" it says that upgrades in units are those listed under the "options" entry

And just above that it says that the Transports "the unit may take" are listed even though they have their own unit entry, as per the transport rules.

Prove it? Ok, it is a dedicated transport, a unit in its own right, not an upgrade to an existing unit. Having the PCS is a prerequisite to buying a chimera, but that does not make it an upgrade. It allow you to buy the chimera.

You are required to have 1 techmarine for every x servitors in the SM codex, but that doesn't make the servitors an upgrade for the TM, it just makes him the prerequisite for buying servitors.

The unit composition definition you are lauding is excluding things like additional conscripts, HWT, and other upgrades that change the composition of the unit but the platoon has all that mucking about accounted for in the 2-5 infantry squad part of the composition.

-cgmckenzie

So what you are saying is that units that have upgrade that create units are called out already?

Not that it is impossible?

Editing to add:
Or do you not see paying to add another unit to the platoon as useful, and thus an upgrade?
It is definitively an option(al part of the platoon).

CGM - you are positing that an upgrade cannot add units to the game

This is immediately false - Thawn is an upgrade to a terminator squad that, if he dies and resurrects, is a new unit.

Thus, an upgrade HAS added a new unit to the game - not massively directly, but given you have no rules to back up your position this is all thats needed at the moment.

A chimera is an upgrade and an option.

I am not really sure what you are trying to say in that last post there, kirsanth.

Basically, you have no rules allowing for the chimera to alter the composition of the platoon outside of the limitations you are given on pg 96. Chimeras are not on the list of units in the platoon, so they are not. There are no rules explicitly allowing you to add them to the platoon, so you cannot.

-cgmckenzie

Apart from the rule that this is the composition before any upgrades / optoins are taken, of course

nosferatu1001 wrote:Apart from the rule that this is the composition before any upgrades / optoins are taken, of course

But that's for unit composition. The Platoon isn't a Unit is it? If it was then Creed could use his special rule to give the entire Platoon Scout!

Pg 89 "Unit Composition: Where applicable, this section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before upgrades are taken."

An infantry platoon isn't a unit, so this rule isn't applicable to the infantry platoon. "1 Platoon Command Squad" isn't a type of model, so this doesn't even meet the description of the 'unit composition'.

-cgmckenzie

[reposted from the poll thread. definitely belongs here.]

OP asks, "Are Chimeras that are purchased for either Platoon Command Squads or Infantry Squads part of the Platoon that the squad(s) that purchased them belong to?"

I have been reading the earlier thread (up to 8 pages as I write this) as well as this new poll with some interest. I play mech IG, not exclusively, but often. IG is also a common opponent army at my FLGS, with several active players. I am sure this issue will come up next week at our tournament.

Other than some brief outbursts of immaturity, it has been a great debate. I do not believe either position has a conclusive supporting argument. (Epistemological definition of conclusive evidence guarantees the truth of the position being supported) People often say something is conclusive when they really mean convincing or persuasive.

I find the argument in favor of the chimera being part of the infantry platoon to be the more persuasive case.

This is definitely a change from how the situation was previously played. The change is due to the new language in the IG "faq". It should be noted that this change is not in the faq section of the "faq", but the errata section. "The errata [section] corrects any mistakes in the codex." This is because what people, myself included, commonly call the "faq" could be more accurately a codex update.

We all want to know what is permitted under the DoW rules of deployment for an IG platoon with one or more dedicated transports (chimera) selected for its PCS and/or Infantry squads. IMO, the crucial point has been correctly identified by the poll question. "Are Chimeras that are purchased for either Platoon Command Squads or Infantry Squads part of the Platoon that the squad(s) that purchased them belong to?"

sigh.. have to go to dentist. will be back and edit in more

edit: back. OK, here we go...

Let's start by quoting some rules and defining some terms/rules

Infantry platoon - my hard copy of the IG codex is from July 2009. On page 96, it says, "Composition: 1 Platoon Command Squad, 2-5 Infantry Squads, 0-5 Heavy Weapon Squads, 0-2 Special Weapons Squads and 0-1 Conscripts Squad. Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves."

Nifty, sounds like a nice way to pack a lot of blob firepower happiness into one troops choice on the force org chart or to drop on the board all at once.

Platoon Command Squad (PCS) and Infantry Squad (PIS) - their entries on pages 96 and 97 respectively, go on to say "Transport: The squad may take a Chimera as dedicated transport (see page 99 for points cost)."

Nifty, my PCSs and PISs can buy dedicated transports (DT). So far so good. What all is this good for other than trying to squeeze 17000 points of IG into the standard force org chart? (Trust me, it's not pretty, but you can do it.) I'm not sure, maybe something will come up. I'll wait and see....

I should note at this point that I started playing 40k about 18 months ago and only ever learned 5th ed rules. I am not confusing this stuff with some previous edition or codex, and I do have some experience playing with and against IG platoons. My experience is far from perfect, just as I am far from infallible. 40k is a game that includes many simple rules that can have non-obvious and complex interactions. Part of what I love about the game is the continued exploration of and subtle changes to these odd rules interactions. Until last week, if you asked me what infantry platoons were good for I would have said squeezing points into the force org and bringing lots of guys in from reserves simultaneously. If I played dawn of war, the most I would drop onto the table before turn 1 would be 5 PISs (combined into one unit, probably with a commissar), a PCS and a Company Command Squad (CCS). No chimeras, no Heavy Weapons Squads (HWS), no etc else. In retrospect, I think I and many at my shop were playing that wrong, but I'll get to that in a second.

I checked my old copy of the Codex: Imperial Guard FAQ ( m1490293a_FAQ_ImperialGuard_2009.pdf) It's dated August 2009. I find no mention of the Infantry Platoon in relation to Dawn of War, deployment, reserves or outflanking. If anyone has a copy of an IG FAQ pdf released after this but before the Jan 2012 one, I would be very interested in hearing if there is any mention of these topics. That brings us to the current debate, which began (I believe) when the Jan 2012 FAQs dropped and some of us read this...

WARHAMMER 40,000 CODEX: IMPERIAL GUARD Official Update Version 1.1 (m2170011a_Imperial_Guard_FAQ_Version_1_1_January_2012.pdf) says, "Page 96 – Infantry Platoon, second sentence Change to “Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed. In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.”

The document in question started off by saying
"Although we strive to ensure that our codexes are
perfect, sometimes mistakes do creep in. In addition,
we occasionally print new versions of our rules, which
require amendments to be made in older versions of
our codexes. When such issues arise, we feel that it is
important to deal with them as promptly as we can,
and we therefore produce regular updates for all of
our codexes. When changes are made, the version
number will be updated, and any changes from the
previous version will be highlighted in Magenta. Where
a version number has a letter, E.g. 1.1a, this means it
has had a local update, only in that language, to clarify
a translation issue or other minor correction.
Each update is split into three sections: Errata,
Amendments, and ‘Frequently Asked Questions’. The
Errata corrects any mistakes in the codex, while the
Amendments bring the codex up to date with the latest
version of the rules. The Frequently Asked Questions
(or ‘FAQ’) section answers commonly asked questions
about the rules. Although you can mark corrections
directly in your codex, this is by no means necessary –
just keep a copy of the update with your codex.

The fact that this document is numbered 1.1 and that the boilerplate warning label at the beginning is ALSO in magenta, makes me strongly suspect that this is the first time this language was included in the IG FAQ and that this was likely the 1st update of the IG FAQ since August 2009. But, back to our debate starting text. I will divide it into 3 parts.

“[A] Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed.
[B] In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon.
[C] Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.”

A and B seem to be a restatement of the original codex text with a slight twist. Instead of the "Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying" we now have "Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed." Interesting. Muddy, but interesting. C seems to be genuinely new information. I have seen this issue come up for PCSs and PISs embarked on reserved Vendettas. I like and appreciate the clarification that C brings to that situation. I would have really, really appreciated it being a separate FAQ entry from the one it was lumped in with, because lumped in with the words "In addition" in the preceding sentence has caused many people, myself included, some major confusion. Back to A and B.

This appears to be a broadening clarification of the original codex entry. Now when I play dawn of war, I can drop my whole platoon on the table as one troops choice, HWS and all. In retrospect, I believe that was RAI all along and that I was playing incorrectly. Oh well, I am more concerned with getting it correct now than defending any previous mistakes I might have made. I am perfectly willing to admit that I make mistakes and do things wrong. I would prefer to learn about it and play it right in the future.

But what about those pesky chimeras? What do the rules have to say about them?

page 99 IG codex "Many Imperial Guard units have the option of selecting a dedicated transport vehicle. These vehicles do not use up any force organizational chart selections, but otherwise function as separate units. See the Vehicles section of the Warhammer 40000 rulebook for details of how transport vehicles operate." o....k.....

The BRB has quite a lot to say about vehicles. The 2 passages I found most relevant were...

page 67 BRB
"DEDICATED TRANSPORTS
Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These 'dedicated
transports' do not use up a slot on the force organization chart. Other vehicles may also have a transport capacity, but they are chosen separately
as normal and occupy a force organization chart slot of their own (for example, the mighty Space Marine Land Raider).

The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent
characters). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly infantry unit, subject to transport capacity and other special exclusions, as
explained in the vehicles entry (it might not be able to transport Terminators, for example)."

and

page 87 BRB
"Dedicated transports
Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organization structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for. When this
distinction is called for (for example in some missions or deployment types), dedicated transport vehicles count as being from the same
force organization category as the unit they were bought for. For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (Troops)
counts as a unit of Troops. but if it was bought for a unit of Veterans (Elites) It counts as Elite."

page 93 BRB
Dawn of War says a player "can deploy up to two units from his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ selections in his half of the table"

They even kindly give an example that includes dedicated transports...
"Example: player A wins the roIl-off and deploys an infantry unit from his Troops and one monstrous creature from his HQ, in his half of the table. He also
declares that a second infantry unit from his Troops will use its Infiltrate ability In his half of the table, player B then deploys a unit of Troops. already embarked
into their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of Troops). He then deploys an independent character from his HO, joining the unit embarked in the
transport. Finally, player deploys his infiltrating unit."

Nifty. Now what's it all mean in the following situation? Dawn of War deployment, a player has a CCS w/ Chimera, a Vet squad with Chimera, and 2 Infantry platoons - one with the minimum 2 PISs w/ Chimera and the PCSs with Chimera, and the other Infantry Platoon super full with a conscripts blob, 5 PISs (either together or separate), 5 HWS 1 PCS and the attached/associated 6 chimeras. What is the most models that player can deploy before turn 1?

A week ago I would have said the CCS, not it's Chimera, the small Infantry platoon, as a PCS and a 20 man blob, but not their 3 chimeras. An infantry platoon HAS to deploy together, but many larger ones could not deploy in DOW before the 1st turn due the deployment constraints. The new IG Codex update has changed (or at the least, clarified) that. What about the chimeras?

I have gone round in circles on this. I think the Al'rahem example is instructive, but not a conclusive precedent. I think the distinction between "transport" and "unit upgrade" is a red herring. The Chimera is clearly not the same unit as the PCS or the PIS, but is it in the same platoon? I think that current RAW, the chimeras are separate from the platoon. I think the RAI, the Al'rahem example, and the nebulous nature of the infantry platoon entry in general and the language of the new FAQ entry in particular STRONGLY suggests that the chimeras are part of the platoon, but in the spirit of RAW and tournament consistency, I don't think they should be part of the initial deployment.

Since I am not a psychic, I can only make a conclusive case for RAW, not RAI. I would love clarification of this issue by GW, but I think it unlikely in the near future. Until then, you are only allowed to do in the game what you are allowed to do in the game. Just because you cannot show me a rule that says I cannot drop an angry cat on the game area if I am losing, does not mean I can drop an angry cat on the game area if I am losing. I would have to show show you a rule that says I can. Hence, I cannot. I think there is a STRONG argument for the chimeras to be part of the platoon. I cannot in good faith it is clear and without fluff inference on my part.

I will bounce it around my shop, but unless someone can cite me a rule I have missed, a faq entry that sheds more light, a GW battle rep that exemplifies the situation, etc. I will have to say no chimeras as part of the infantry platoon.

foolishmortal wrote:[reposted from the poll thread. definitely belongs here.]

OP asks, "Are Chimeras that are purchased for either Platoon Command Squads or Infantry Squads part of the Platoon that the squad(s) that purchased them belong to?"

I have been reading the earlier thread (up to 8 pages as I write this) as well as this new poll with some interest. I play mech IG, not exclusively, but often. IG is also a common opponent army at my FLGS, with several active players. I am sure this issue will come up next week at our tournament.

Other than some brief outbursts of immaturity, it has been a great debate. I do not believe either position has a conclusive supporting argument. (Epistemological definition of conclusive evidence guarantees the truth of the position being supported) People often say something is conclusive when they really mean convincing or persuasive,...

However people here may disagree with you, I would say that this is a textbook example of how someone should present their argument in YMDC. Oh, and I agree with your assessment .

-Yad

Man this is a complex issue. Really though I think we're narrowing down the cinch of it.

MULTIPLE UNIT CHOICES
Note that occasionally the Codexes allow the player to include several units in his army at the cost of a single force organisation slot (like dedicated transports, etc.). Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects.

Page 92, Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook

The Infantry Platoon entry on Page 96 of Codex: Imperial Guard is a 'Multiple Unit Choice'. The BRB gives a specific example of dedicated transports, but this rule equally applies to the Infantry Squad, Command Squad, and other Squads found under the Infantry Platoon entry.

The dedicated transports are purchased as part of a single choice: The Infantry Platoon. Hence, they are part of the Infantry Platoon.

The one compelling argument against this I've seen was that Page 96 of the IG Codex lists specific army list entries that make up the composition of the Infantry Platoon. I argue that the Multiple Unit Choice rule on Page 92 of the BRB still applies. The Infantry Squad when it takes a dedicated transport would be a Multiple Unit Choice, just like the Infantry Platoon is.

So really the Infantry Platoon entry is a Multiple Unit Choice containing Multiple Unit Choice selections. In my opinion anyways. I could be mistaken. But I need to see a damned good explanation as to the reasoning behind why it wouldn't be.

The Infantry Platoon is a MUC. Which is why, previously, you could only deploy a part of it in DoW. Now, however, the whole platoon counts as a single Troop unit for the purpose of deployment.

I'm trying to figure out how something can be attached to a squad but not be part of the platoon?

page 87 BRB
"Dedicated transports
Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organization structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for."

Sure seems to me that if they're attached to the Infantry Squad or PCS that they were bought for, then they're certainly part of the platoon.

Happyjew wrote:The Infantry Platoon is a MUC. Which is why, previously, you could only deploy a part of it in DoW. Now, however, the whole platoon counts as a single Troop unit for the purpose of deployment.

This is not true. The Platoon does not "counts as". The wording of the Errata states an Infantry Platoon may be deployed in place of a unit. It does not "count as". This is kind of an important if subtle distinction. If it was worded the way you are misinterpreting it, Creed would be able to give the Platoon Scout in DOW missions. RAW, this is not possible.

It also has no bearing on the MUC rule, so I'm not sure why you brought it up.

cgmckenzie wrote:Pg 89 "Unit Composition: Where applicable, this section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before upgrades are taken."

Yes, and?

Read the whole post. Because it is not a unit, the definition of unit composition does not apply to it.

Units are pcs, he's, etc but the platoon is a horse of a different color. Because that unit comp. rule does not apply, the only units that are in the platoon are those that are on the pg 96 description.

-cgmckenzie

BTW, I am on,my phone now, so shorthand and page numbers might be askew.

Page 96 lists a transport.
Still.

Editing to add:
I do read all of the posts. I just quote parts I respond to.
The fact that it is not a unit is kind of the point.
The fact that the platoon lists some of the units that can compose it and that the list for creating a platoon includes transport options for the platoon are related.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cgmckenzie wrote:BTW, I am on,my phone now, so shorthand and page numbers might be askew.

Also, mobile DakkaDakka is awesome.

cgmckenzie wrote:
Units are pcs, he's, etc but the platoon is a horse of a different color. Because that unit comp. rule does not apply, the only units that are in the platoon are those that are on the pg 96 description.

The entries listed as part of the composition of the platoon are Multiple Unit Choice selections when you take a dedicated transport according to the BRB. So the transports are part of the platoon.

I feel this discussion is at an impass. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the latest thinking on the two sides is as follows.

Q: do DT chimeras deploy as part of an infantry platoon in DoW deployment (or any deployment that limits initial units by Force Org catagory?

A1: Yes. The chimeras are "attached" to their respective squads and thus the platoon in general, per p87 BRB. This is the best argument I see for the PRO position right now. The idea of DTs as unit upgrades had some merit, but I think we have now seen that an Infantry Platoon is NOT a unit, thus that interpretation becomes less convincing. Honestly, the closest thing I see to an Infantry Platoon is an Apocalypse formation. I may check there next for relevant rulings.

A2: No. The chimeras are associated to the the infantry platoon by their DT status, but this does not make them part of the platoon. Fluff-based arguments aside, I have not seen a solid, RAW / FAQ reason for them to be. I agree that it feels like they should be, but that is not a good enough reason.

If there was a continuum of persuasion, it might look something like this.

<--A----||--------B-------|-no opinion-|--------C----||-----D--->

Starting off with an open mind at no opinion. Based on the arguments presented, your position drifts left or right. Left side represents PRO chimeras as part of IP. Right side represents AGAINST chimeras as part of IP.

As I see it, there are 4 opinionated zones, not 2.
"A" believes the RAI and RAW conclusively have chimeras as part of the IP.
"B" believes that chimeras are part of the the IP RAW, but not RAI are unclear. They favor the inclusive choice by default.
"C" believes that chimeras are part of the the IP RAI, but not RAW. They favor the non-permissive choice by default.
"D" believes that chimeras are conclusively not part of the IP both RAW and RAI.

RAW vs RAI is an old argument that rarely ends well. I think the crux of the problem is the nebulous nature of the Infantry Platoon in general.
I find myself currently at C, but am willing to hear new arguments, or even old ones polished up and clarified.

foolishmortal wrote:
A1: Yes. The chimeras are "attached" to their respective squads and thus the platoon in general, per p87 BRB. This is the best argument I see for the PRO position right now. The idea of DTs as unit upgrades had some merit, but I think we have now seen that an Infantry Platoon is NOT a unit, thus that interpretation becomes less convincing. Honestly, the closest thing I see to an Infantry Platoon is an Apocalypse formation. I may check there next for relevant rulings.

Actually, I think the Multiple Unit Choices rule on Page 94 of the BRB is the most compelling argument for this being true. Also, in 5E Apocalypse is a supplement. Its not going to affect non-Apocalypse games so the formations there are irrelevant.

foolishmortal wrote:
A2: No. The chimeras are associated to the the infantry platoon by their DT status, but this does not make them part of the platoon. Fluff-based arguments aside, I have not seen a solid, RAW / FAQ reason for them to be. I agree that it feels like they should be, but that is not a good enough reason.

Again, the Multiple Unit Choices rule I quoted earlier in this thread. I'm not seeing the nay-sayers address this rule directly yet. It seems to be getting ignored.



So to reiterate, in case I didn't explain it clearly before:

1. Infantry Platoons are a Multiple Unit Choice as per the BRB.
2. Any army list entry which takes a Dedicated Transport is a Multiple Unit Choice, as per the BRB.
3. Infantry Platoons have a composition listing several army list entries.
4. Two of these entries, the Command Squad and Infantry Squad, are Multiple Unit Choices when they take Chimeras.
5. Per the BRB, Multiple Unit Choices are bought as a single choice.
6. For Imperial Guard, the Infantry Platoon is their 'single choice'.

Thus, Chimeras taken as dedicated transports for Command Squads and Infantry Squads are part of the Infantry Platoon choice when you build your list. The Platoon in those cases is a Multiple Unit Choice made up of Multiple Unit Choices.

Of course this has been answered before. 3 times by me I think. To keep it short, the last sentence of the multiple unit choice is:
"Apart from being bought as a single choice, this units operate and count as separate unit in all respects".
There you go. The multiple unit choice rule is utilised when you buy units and only then. After that it has no effect in game at all.

copper.talos wrote:Can a SM squad deploy as 1 unit with his attached rhino? No. Why not then? Does the platoon mention units and their attached transports? Are there rules that explain in a platoon how units attached to transports interract differently from the rules in BRB ?

Or should you focus on the fact that they are completely separate units in all respects as emphasised in multiple unit choices?

I'd say focus on getting over the fact you aren't in the majority of opinion?
You make great arguements, but are just wrong. and i feel you've also been proven wrong numerous times.

Can you pinpoint exactly where I was wrong? Plz quote rules.

copper.talos wrote:Can you pinpoint exactly where I was wrong?

Leaving out the fact that IG (platoons) can deploy multiple units in the place of a single unit.

Or perhaps relating it to Space Marines who have no such exception.

copper.talos wrote:Can you pinpoint exactly where I was wrong? Plz quote rules.

It's been done over 9 pages, mol.

kirsanth wrote:Leaving out the fact that IG (platoons) can deploy multiple units in the place of a single unit.

Platoons deploy multiple units, but only those units that are defined in the platoon composition.

@alarmingrick it should be easy then to post a fewe rules. Kirsanth has tried already.

copper.talos wrote:only those units that are defined in the platoon composition.

Prove it. The page for making a platoon lists the transports.