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Wow, yet again you bring up the Rhino strawman argument

Apparently you keep forgetting specific > general, despite the number of times youre told.


Can you stop commiting so many logical fallacies, especially ones so HILARIOUSLY awful as that one? It might make your arguments worth a damn.

Oh, and as you apparently dont understand another sentence - while the IG codex says they do not "use up" another slot, that doesnt mean they dont exist IN a slot - they just do not "use [it] up"; same as SM honour guard, et al.

Not a tricky sentence to parse, but you've used it so many times thinking it means something different i thought it was worth correcting you again

Where is the specifics in the platoon rules that overcomes that argument? The best thing you came up was that transports and comisars are the same regarding to the squad (really?) and the BRB multiple unit choices that claimed the exact opposite of your argument.

What happens if you buy a chimera for Al'Raheem and you dont put a squad in it. Al'Raheem's platoon must outflank, does this apply to chimera's bought for Al'Raheem?

Is there an official ruling regarding Al Rahem and empty chimeras? I can't seem to find one in the faqs and I don't understand why should he be different than any case when a unit that outflanks arrives not embarked in its transport.

I believe Nos had it on page 1, by page 8 he still has it but is more frustrated with some peoples claims

copper.talos wrote:Where is the specifics in the platoon rules that overcomes that argument? The best thing you came up was that transports and comisars are the same regarding to the squad (really?) and the BRB multiple unit choices that claimed the exact opposite of your argument.

The FAQ, you know - the one that makes the WHOLE platoon (one that is GASP composed of many different units!) COUNT AS ONE UNIT for the purposes of deplotying.

Can you find one that says a Tac Squad + Rhino is a single unit when deploying in deployment restricted missions? You CANT? Gosh, who;d have thought

Your strawman has been debunked every. single. time. you have attempted it. GIVE UP

Duce - yep, frustrated that one poster is just about the most dishonest poster i've yet met - strawmen arguments being just the LEAST of the logical fallacies they commit all the way through. Repeatedly ignoring their argument being proven wrong doesnt help either.

The whole platoon deploys as one unit, but the units is made of are those in the description of the platoon. Not those which you choose to arbitrarily add. If a unit is not in the description of a platoon and there is no rule to say that that unit under certain circumstances can be added to the platoon, then there is no excuse to add it in the platoon.

Your arguments were that
a transport is like the comisar (huh?)
multiple unit choice rule in brb - which claimed the opposite
the faq - which doesn't mention that chimeras are part of the platoon and the deployment passage fits the normal transport & reserve rules without the chimeras being part of the platoon
the chimeras are an option in the platoon page - they are in the dedicated transport page
that chimeras are part of the platoon just because you say so - platoon composition in IG codex disagrees.

Any other arguments to add to the above list?

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:It is copper.talos' position that dedicated transports belong to the same FOC category but not the same slot as the unit that it was bought for. Extending this out from just Troops, for the moment, copper.talos would also say that an Elite choice, such as a Pskyer Battle Squad, that also buys a Dedicated Transport, that that DT is in the Elite FOC but not the same slot that the unit that bought it occupies.

Counterargument:

He is right in saying that.

The counter-argument means nothing.
Every dedicated transport, by its very nature is purchased for 1 unit. It is unique.

Lets say squad 1 (the 1 with the plasma gun) buys a chimera.
Even if that chimera was identically equipped with all the others, it's still unique.

Beyond deployment and arriving from reserve together, if the unit is embarked, there is no "special relationship" that binds these 2 entirely individual units together at all.

So, if you apply this to a ccs, despite the chimera clearly "belonging" to it in respects to deployment and reserves, the chim only exists as an hq unit and not in any way part of the ccs, so they cannot both be deployed in DOW.

Does this make any kind of sense? Is it the RAW?

nosferatu1001 wrote:"at the cost of a single Force Organisation Chart slot (like dedicated transports, etc)"

Quoting part of that rule is misleading.
The transport does not cost anything, the unit that must exist before the dt was bought did.

copper.talos wrote:The whole platoon deploys as one unit, but the units is made of are those in the description of the platoon. Not those which you choose to arbitrarily add. If a unit is not in the description of a platoon and there is no rule to say that that unit under certain circumstances can be added to the platoon, then there is no excuse to add it in the platoon.

Odd, I can see that on the platoon page I can choose to add a chimera as an upgrade....odd that. Guess your tippex is working overtime

copper.talos wrote:Your arguments were that
a transport is like the comisar (huh?)

Wow, you still dont get it. I was trying to explain, futilely, by using an analogous creature - the commisar. I was showing that as the Commisar is NOT shown as part of the platoon (same as a chimera) but is still part of the platoon, so is the chimera.

You still apparently dont understand the analogy, so rather than pursue ANOTHER futile argument, i steered away from it. I guess analgy was too complicated a concept.

copper.talos wrote:multiple unit choice rule in brb - which claimed the opposite

No, your argument is that the chimera isnt part of the same FOC slot as the platoon squads, despite the MUC rules stating the exact opposite. Yes, they repeat (which you keep harking on about, as if it matters one jot) that it is a separate unit - but this doesnt matter for this discussion, as the concept of specific > general (you seem to struggle with this, so bear with - this is for the benefit of others who may actually think you have a valid argument now, not you) means that they are one "unit" when deploying.

copper.talos wrote:the faq - which doesn't mention that chimeras are part of the platoon and the deployment passage fits the normal transport & reserve rules without the chimeras being part of the platoon

Wrong, it doesnt for empty chimera. Yet again you keep ignoring this hole in your argument. There is one "instead" condition given; dedicated transports are part of the platoon, INSTEAD if you are on a non-dedicated transport you dont roll with the rest of your platoon.

copper.talos wrote:the chimeras are an option in the platoon page - they are in the dedicated transport page

Their stats are listed there, but they are indeed an option on the platoon page - you must keep missing it. Or you're claiming that "lasguns" arent part of a platoon, because while they are listed on the platoon page their stats are elsewhere

copper.talos wrote:that chimeras are part of the platoon just because you say so - platoon composition in IG codex disagrees.

Stop lying, again. I have never said "just because I say so"

You havea real issue with truthfulness

copper.talos wrote:Any other arguments to add to the above list?

Nope, all my arguments have been laid out clearly and you have yet to actually disprove anything of substance - you keep building strawmen arguments, fail at understanding the FAQ, fail at understanding specific vs general, and feel the need to repeatedly lie.

copper.talos wrote:

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:Stuff

In any case the chimera takes no FOC slot at all. When in a scenario such as DoW, the PBS chimera counts as being from the Elites FOC category
*sigh* Have you ever read the transport rules?

Yes I have read the rules concerning DT and how they apply for DoW. Did you just stop reading there and not continue with the rest of my argument for some reason? You are awfully silent on the issues I raise. I brought up the example of the IG ST to specifically refute a point you made earlier about DT and how they are not attached to the slot they are bought for even though pg. 87 explicitly tells us they are attached to the unit they are bought for.

BRB pg. 87 wrote:Dedicated transports
Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organisation structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for.

Emphasis mine. So are the Chimeras bought for Infantry Squads or PCS, as part of a Platoon, no longer "attached" to the Infantry Squads or PCS that bought them? Seems like breaking a rule of pg. 87 and the BRB...

copper.talos wrote:As to "the chimera is an upgrade of the unit" look at this http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/367951.page

No one claimed then that the chimera is an upgrade. The suggestion seemed so wrong that nobody cared to argue otherwise.

Do you not like my choice of word of "upgrade"? Perhaps "option" would be a better choice? It still does not invalidate my argument about what the Platoon Composition is or isn't before "upgrades", "options", or whatever are taken. Also, I do not find the discussion of Jokero weapon upgrades and how they don't apply to Chimeras (as they are always a separate unit) relevant to the discussion concerning DoW deployment, IG Infantry Platoons, and Chimeras (which by the FAQ are given explicit permission to deploy as one unit in a DoW type scenario). No one is arguing that Chimeras are not ever, outside of the very specific exception given by the new IG FAQ, a separate unit from the squad that purchased them.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Odd, I can see that on the platoon page I can choose to add a chimera as an upgrade....odd that. Guess your tippex is working overtime

No you get to add a chimera as a dedicated transport. That means that that chimera entry is independent from the platoon as opposed to comisars, autocannos etc

[quote=nosferatu1001
Wow, you still dont get it. I was trying to explain, futilely, by using an analogous creature - the commisar. I was showing that as the Commisar is NOT shown as part of the platoon (same as a chimera) but is still part of the platoon, so is the chimera.
You still apparently dont understand the analogy, so rather than pursue ANOTHER futile argument, i steered away from it. I guess analgy was too complicated a concept.

Seriously Copper, you crack me up.
You are seriously now CLINGING futiley to "in all respects", despite the fact the platoon rules in the FAQ give a more specific case?

Hilariously awful argument, really.

You've lost, you lost on page 1 and still, 7 pages later you have still lost.

Literally nothing you say has any bearing in the real rules, just talos-making-it-up-hammer40k

Another of your famous arguments?

The faq doesn't address at all how chimeras deploy in DoW. Maybe most players (unknowingly perhaps) agree with you. But it's down to the TOs to judge this, I'll see in ETC and other big tournaments how this ends up.

It gives a more specific case, in that members of the platoon (so, that wouldbe the chimera you choose to purchase as part of the platoons options, then - a point you consistently pretend doesnt exist, as per usual) are a single "unit" for DoW (+any ohter deployment limited mission) - so yes, "in all respects" is a futile argument

Oh, this isnt MY argument, it is yet another attempt by you to ignore wha tthe rules for platoons and their unit entries actually say.

Oh, and I'm a TO. Just thought I'd let you know.

So, whats your next attempt at an "argument" going to be, given you have been comprehensively debunked at each and every turn? Anything else you want to make up while you're here?

copper.talos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Their stats are listed there, but they are indeed an option on the platoon page - you must keep missing it. Or you're claiming that "lasguns" arent part of a platoon, because while they are listed on the platoon page their stats are elsewhere

In order to take an autocannon you are just given a cost to pay. In the case of chimera it says that you can buy it as a dedicated transport, that means you go to the dedicated transport page (so you leave the platoon page) and follow the rules that say that the transport is separate from the unit in all respects. You can't use that unit as an excuse to include the chimera in the platoon. There must be a rule to do so. Unfortunately for you there isn't one.

I also have to leave pg. 96, the page with the Infantry Platoon info, to purchase Infantry Squads, HWS, SWS, and Conscripts. Are they not part of the Platoon only, and solely, due to not having their options listed on the same page as the Infantry Platoon itself? See how ridiculous that sounds. Similarly to when the BA Codex came out and people were arguing that BA Squads couldn't take DT options not listed only on pg. 90 of the BA codex because that's the only page referenced for DT options.

copper.talos wrote:

Evil Lamp 6 wrote: So are the Chimeras bought for Infantry Squads or PCS, as part of a Platoon, no longer "attached" to the Infantry Squads or PCS that bought them? Seems like breaking a rule of pg. 87 and the BRB...

I am not breaking any rules. You are making new ones.

How so? Need I post the rules listed on pg. 87 of the BRB again to show where GW wrote the word attachment and not me?

copper.talos wrote:This attachment you claim exists

I don't need to claim it exists, the BRB does it for me on pg. 87...

copper.talos wrote: and it's the same attachment a SM squad has with its rhino. IG don't have special rules regarding how dedicated transports interract with their unit.

Actually, with the new FAQ and concerning DoW deployments, I'd say that IG now do. As would just about everyone else in this thread. SM have no FAQ rule to say their deployment works the way IG does concerning DoW and so no they are not able to do what IG can.

copper.talos wrote: You follow the same rules with everybody else. So since this attachment is not good enough for a rhino to deploy as one with the SM squad, then it's not good enough to deploy as one with an infantry squad,

The new IG FAQ says otherwise by my and just about everyone else reading of it.

copper.talos wrote: and definetely not good enough to be made part of the platoon.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote: Do you not like my choice of word of "upgrade"? Perhaps "option" would be a better choice? It still does not invalidate my argument about what the Platoon Composition is or isn't before "upgrades", "options", or whatever are taken. Also, I do not find the discussion of Jokero weapon upgrades and how they don't apply to Chimeras (as they are always a separate unit) relevant to the discussion concerning DoW deployment, IG Infantry Platoons, and Chimeras (which by the FAQ are given explicit permission to deploy as one unit in a DoW type scenario). No one is arguing that Chimeras are not ever, outside of the very specific exception given by the new IG FAQ, a separate unit from the squad that purchased them.

Chimeras are not upgrades\ wargear\characters\options.

Stop right there. I think DT are most certainly options as they are an option that a squad can take; they are not a mandatory choice and if they aren't options, then what the hell are they?

copper.talos wrote:They are transports. Follow transport rules only.
And the FAQ doesn't in no way say that chimeras are part of the platoon.

By implication through referencing how non-DT works under the FAQ, the FAQ does.

copper.talos wrote: It only wishfull thinking. It says that the platoon deploys as one unit OK. and coming from reserves non dedicated transports roll for reserves separately. Arriving from reserves with chimeras at the same time is covered by basic transport & reserve rules.

Lets leave reserves out of this for now since I can't say I've seen any disagreement with how people think that DT and reserves works. This is concerning only DoW type deployments and what IG can or cannot start with on the table in relation to the new FAQ.

If you look in the platoon entry you'll see there is a "composition". There are listed all the units that are part of the platoon. You need a rule/errata to add units there. Nothing of such sort exist.

And finally show me EXACTLY what part of the faq makes you think that the chimera became part of a platoon and I'll prove that it can be done using basic transport & reserve rules. I'll post pg numbers, quotes, the works...

We have done, for the last 8 pages. You ahev been unable to prove a single argument.

You;re done here.

Are you his dad or something? Let him reply.

So, when someone points out you get the same answer in both forums, you complain that theyre your mum, now its a dad thing.

I was pointing out that repeating ourselves for the benefit of a poster who has consistently lied, ignored rules, made up strawmen arguments etc is beginning to get a little dull.

Is a platoon, part of the ig armies force organisation chart???

Yes, a platoon is a single troops choice consisting of multiple units. These units can be CCS, infantry squads, HWS, SWS, or conscripts.

These units can buy upgrades like more dakka, extra ladz, fancier uniforms, or bigger bosses. They also have the option of buying a dedicated transport.

Dedicated transports are separate units not listed in the units that can make up the platoon. They simply are not part of the platoon because of that.

The commissar comparison is not great because they are not separate units, and therefore do not have any impact on platoon composition. Chimeras, however, are separate units not listed as being able to be part of the platoon, so they are not part of the platoon.

There is nowhere in the rules or FAQ's that say chimeras are part of the platoon that their squads are in. The list of units in the platoon is exclusive, only those listed can claim to be part of the 'Fightin' Meatshields'.

HOWEVER, for deployment in DOW, they are deployed with the platoon because the FAQ implies that with its wording.

So, in summation: NO, not part of the platoon. YES, deploys with platoon in DOW.

-cgmckenzie

The "options" within the Platoon tells you they are part of the platoon structure

I think you lot will argue black is blue forever here, so, as a relative "neutral" noob here, why don't you try to convince me???
I will try to bash holes in everything anybody says, pro or con.
Pick part of the argument and I'll do my best to destroy what you (either camp) say.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The "options" within the Platoon tells you they are part of the platoon structure

Then why when a chimera is listed, in the ccs entry, is it not a part of the ccs "structure?"

It is attached to the CCS (as the rules for DT say) but part of the wider structure, same as the CCS is part of the wider structure

copper.talos wrote:@cowmonaut If a unit outflanks its dedicated transport come with them. There is no need for the transport itself to have the rule.

You are mistaken here. The BRB states explicitly that units with Infiltrate and Scout can outflank and can be embarked in their dedicated transport to do so. The Infantry Platoon does not get Infiltrate or Scout, they get Outflank (which is not a USR, its a mission special rule). Only transports and Independent Characters with Outflank could outflank with them. The precedent for this is very clear (see the repeated Saga of the Hunter).

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:It is copper.talos' position that dedicated transports belong to the same FOC category but not the same slot as the unit that it was bought for. Extending this out from just Troops, for the moment, copper.talos would also say that an Elite choice, such as a Pskyer Battle Squad, that also buys a Dedicated Transport, that that DT is in the Elite FOC but not the same slot that the unit that bought it occupies.

That is RAW. So he's right in that regard. Dedicated Transports are not part of the ForceOrg chart, but count as whatever Category the attached unit is from.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:Counterargument: Such DT bought for their units' do care which slot they come from as opposed to just the FOC as evidenced by IG Storm Troopers and the Strategic Operation: Reconnaissance. Why is this so? Becuase by virtue of a squad of IG Storm Troopers and the Strategic Operation: Reconnaissance, the Storm Troopers themselves have the Scouts USR, which by virtue of the BRB, says they confer to their DT if deployed inside of it, This again matters as the IG Storm Trooper Chimera, and not some random Elite FOC Chimera (either from another IG ST Sqd, Ogryn, etc.) has the Scout USR as well. Nor does the DT lose that ability after deployment (admittedly it has no other use after deployment but it does differentiate one Elite FOC Chimera from another as one would have the Scouts USR and another would not) nor when the squad inside disembarks. Just by deploying inside it the IG ST give their DT the Scouts USR for the rest of the game.

A special exception is explicitly marked out regarding dedicated transports and the Infiltrate and Scout USR. The IG FAQ makes a similar specific exception with regards to how reservese/outflanking works for the Platoon and non-dedicated transports.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:It has also been argued that because Chimeras aren't listed in the Infantry Platoon Composition on pg. 96 of the IG Codex that they are never a part of the Platoon. I would like to direct those people to pg. 89 of the IG Codex where it says the following concering the Composition:

IG Codex pg. 89 wrote:Unit Composition: Where applicable, this section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades are taken.

Emphasis mine. So yes, before any upgrades are taken I'll agree that the Platoon doesn't include Chimeras. After upgrades are taken, if the Chimera transport option is taken for any PCS or Infantry Squads, then yes the Platoon does include Chimeras in it.

I brought this up before as a potential problem back on page 6. Its why nosferatu's Commissar argument doesn't hold up unfortunately. The whole of page 89 is about unit composition. The Infantry Platoon is not a unit in its own right. It does not even "count as" a unit during Dawn of War according to RAW (which I think is a very important decision and a conscience choice given Creed's special rules).

That you quoted presents us a problem: Are "dedicated transports" an upgrade? I say yes, but the exact wording on the page may contradict this. It lists 'dedicated transports' separately from 'options', and only 'options' has the key word "upgrade" in its description on that page. I'm not sure. I'd like to see an official ruling from somewhere about that.

SeattleDV8 wrote:BRB pg. 87

Sometimes a single choice on the force organisation chart will allow you to select more than one unit.

and same page Dedicated Transports

....as they are attached to the unit they are bought for.

So we need to define the "attach" mechanic in the context of the rules.

cgmckenzie wrote:Yes, a platoon is a single troops choice consisting of multiple units. These units can be CCS, infantry squads, HWS, SWS, or conscripts.

These units can buy upgrades like more dakka, extra ladz, fancier uniforms, or bigger bosses. They also have the option of buying a dedicated transport.

Dedicated transports are separate units not listed in the units that can make up the platoon. They simply are not part of the platoon because of that.

The commissar comparison is not great because they are not separate units, and therefore do not have any impact on platoon composition. Chimeras, however, are separate units not listed as being able to be part of the platoon, so they are not part of the platoon.

There is nowhere in the rules or FAQ's that say chimeras are part of the platoon that their squads are in. The list of units in the platoon is exclusive, only those listed can claim to be part of the 'Fightin' Meatshields'.

HOWEVER, for deployment in DOW, they are deployed with the platoon because the FAQ implies that with its wording.

So, in summation: NO, not part of the platoon. YES, deploys with platoon in DOW.

-cgmckenzie

I really find it interesting that its the DoW deployment and not the Outflanking that has brought this argument up. People have been Outflanking with Al'Rahem essentially since the Codex came out. It has even been allowed at 'Ard Boyz and other tournaments. Yet its not possible if your argument is true (which I'm not 100% convinced it is).

The options allow the infantry squad or PCS to buy a dedicated transport. The Chimeras are separate units not included in the platoon composition on page 96. The ruleset, being permissive and all, does not have a rule/FAQ/errata that allows you to add the chimera to the platoon. The PCS is allowed in the wider structure because it's specifically in the list of units in it, the chimera is not.

But, again, this has no bearing on gameplay: the FAQ allows them to come in on DOW and from reserves as if they were part of it, they just aren't.

-cgmckenzie

Dedicated transports "sit outside" the foc structure (p87).
They don't "count as" part of a slot, the parent unit does that entirely, they are entirely seperate units (p92).
They come from the same foc "category" as the unit that buys them (p87).
They are "attached" to the unit they are bought for (p87).
This does not mean anything at all, unless the unit is embarked and that other units cannot embark at deployment, or in reserve.
It serves no other purpose.

To claim that a muc has any rule whatsoever to defeat these rules is nonsense.
If it did, a ccs + chimera is a muc, where the transport is outside the foc, would not be prohibited to both deploy in dow.
It clearly is.

= muc have no inbuilt immunity from deployment restrictions.

Al Rehems platoon must outflank.
It has been claimed, that they don't do this, in the same way as others, as the rules deal with scouts and infiltraitors.
What rules do you use then?

I would have thought that you would use the "outflank rules" to outflank.

A unit may outflank with its dedicated transport, al rehems units must.
In order for a dedicated transport to outflank, it must have a unit embarked.

If you choose not to have the unit embarked, the transport cannot outflank.
This ^ works both ways, you see.

Interesting, I was wrong about the Outflanking. I was too fixated on the first sentence of the Outflank rules on page 94. The later sentences about dedicated transports doesn't make this distinction in the way its worded. The phrase "Note, such units" may be construed to mean only the units with scout and infiltrate USR, but that doesn't seem right.

For DoW, I still think you should be able to put the Chimeras on the table. cgmckenzie brings up an interesting point, more clearly than copper.talos did...

fuusa wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:The "options" within the Platoon tells you they are part of the platoon structure

Then why when a chimera is listed, in the ccs entry, is it not a part of the ccs "structure?"

Because the platoon structure is specifically mentioned as being 'before upgrades', and a Chimera is an upgrade (in the sense that it is an optional thing which adds value to the unit).

cowmonaut wrote:The phrase "Note, such units" may be construed to mean only the units with scout and infiltrate USR, but that doesn't seem right.

Imo, "such units" refers to units that outflank, rather than the reason behind them being able to do so.

cgmckenzie wrote:But, again, this has no bearing on gameplay: the FAQ allows them to come in on DOW and from reserves as if they were part of it, they just aren't.

I have some sympathy for this, it may be what the faq is trying to say, but I'm not convinced it does.
Conjecture on this is futile, however, as are squeals of it being broken etc.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Because the platoon structure is specifically mentioned as being 'before upgrades'

Lost me there, pg no please???