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Is a unit, that is bought for another unit, an (lets say, to avoid the use of "upgrade") "enhancement" for 1 particular unit, or for the whole platoon?

For deployment and reserves, can the platoon make use of it (ie embark) or not? Or can just 1 unit?

To go to daftsville, I have a platoon of 3 units that is deployed in place of 1 unit.
Can I even use my 3 chimeras at all?
Am I not now deploying 1 unit, in three seperate transports?

I think people are losing sight of the rules based on how stupid the idea of having specific permission to deploy multiple units, where other armies are more limited, but ending up with different permissions re what you can/can't do, for deployment vs reserve arrival.

The faq has landed us right in the middle of these different permissions, without explaining how they work.

danpieri wrote:But the Chimera is a dedicated transport for the CCS and the PCS. How can it be a separate command choice if there is no command squad in it?

I'm not sure what you are asking here danpieri. Are you asking about deploying a chimera bought with the Company Command Squad in Dawn of War (where you deploy units not choices? If so, then read page 87 in the main rulebook. If not, please post again a little clearer.

don_mondo wrote:So I'm buying the Chimera from some other Force org slot and randomly deciding who gets it? No, I don't think so. It's bought from the platoon pages, and IMO, that makes it part of the platoon.

Another bad example from you. This is 5th edition - you can buy a DT with squad A and have squad B embark in it during the game. It's done all the time. In 4th edition it was not allowed.

ryan3740 wrote:

don_mondo wrote:So I'm buying the Chimera from some other Force org slot and randomly deciding who gets it? No, I don't think so. It's bought from the platoon pages, and IMO, that makes it part of the platoon.

Another bad example from you. This is 5th edition - you can buy a DT with squad A and have squad B embark in it during the game.

Since we are discussing deployment, this is entirely irrelevant. That cannot be done at the point this discussion is referring to.

Editing to add:
Before I get accused of defending another person entirely capable of defending themselves - I am simply pointing out erroneous statements.

@cowmonaut
I see chimeras in the dedicated transports transports page and platoon in the platoons page.

Anyway Al'Rahem in order to outflank he must be kept in reserves. When arriving from the reserves, chimeras arrive along with the embarked unit because of basic transport/reserve rules, NOT because the chimeras are part of the platoon.

copper.talos wrote:
Anyway Al'Rahem in order to outflank he must be kept in reserves. When arriving from the reserves, chimeras arrive along with the embarked unit because of basic transport/reserve rules, NOT because the chimeras are part of the platoon.

It is important. A unit with outflanking cannot outflank in a transport not cable of outflanking. If the unit had Infiltrate/Scout, they can outflank in their dedicated transport. But Al'Rahem's Platoon does not have Infiltrate or Scout. They have Outflank. If the Chimeras are not part of the Platoon, they do not have Outflank. They do not have Scout either, so they can't Outflank.

Basically, if the Chimera's not part of the Platoon, you can't take Chimera's with Al'Rahem. Or you can but they don't outflank and just come on the board normally...

copper.talos wrote:@cowmonaut
I see chimeras in the dedicated transports transports page and platoon in the platoons page.

Under the Infantry Platoon entry is two entries: Command Squad and Infantry Squad. Under these entries is an option that says they can purchase dedicated transports at the price listed on Page 99. Ignoring it won't help your argument at all. Chimeras are listed under Infantry/Command Squads which are listed under the Infantry Platoon entry.

kirsanth wrote:

ryan3740 wrote:

don_mondo wrote:So I'm buying the Chimera from some other Force org slot and randomly deciding who gets it? No, I don't think so. It's bought from the platoon pages, and IMO, that makes it part of the platoon.

Another bad example from you. This is 5th edition - you can buy a DT with squad A and have squad B embark in it during the game.

Since we are discussing deployment, this is entirely irrelevant. That cannot be done at the point this discussion is referring to.

But I was referring to Don mondo's example, which never mentions deployment. He just mentioned "who get's it" and not "when" they get it.

@cowmonaut If a unit outflanks its dedicated transport come with them. There is no need for the transport itself to have the rule.

copper.talos wrote:@cowmonaut
I see chimeras in the dedicated transports transports page and platoon in the platoons page.

So you're now saying that there's not even an option to buy a chimera anywhere on the platoon page?? Funny, there is in my IG codex......................

pg. 94, Outflank: "Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport, but if they do so they must move onto the table embarked in it"

This quote allows Al'Rahem to outflank in transports. Also, not a hard rule, but it insinuates that when a unit is embarked in transports, the transports act in the same way units do, i.e. DOW they all deploy at once.

copper.talos wrote:@cowmonaut If a unit outflanks its dedicated transport come with them. There is no need for the transport itself to have the rule.

Actually, it only says that for units with Infiltrate or Scout.

Page 94, main rules:
During deployment, players may declare that units with the ‘scout’ or ‘infiltrate’ special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy.
(snip description of how outflank works)
Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport, but if they do so they must move onto the table embarked in it.

So yes, the Chimera's would have to be considered part of the platoon and units that receive Outflank in their own right for them to be able to Outflank as part of Rahem's platoon, whether they are empty or not.

So, you deploy at the 24" mark.
Orks reserve everything.
Turn 2 (or whatever turn) orks come in with wagons and Ghazzy.
Move 13, jump out 2 (with is just about 4" with Gazzies base), declare WAAGH, move 6", Charge into the Platoon to tie you up and keep the big guns from shooting at the Boyz.
Snikrot and a second PK-Boss come in from the back to kill your non-moving Ordance (manticores/Colossus).

Yeah, I can see the IG full deployment in DoW lasting all of 1 battle report.

dkellyj wrote:So, you deploy at the 24" mark.
Orks reserve everything.
Turn 2 (or whatever turn) orks come in with wagons and Ghazzy.
Move 13, jump out 2 (with is just about 4" with Gazzies base), declare WAAGH, move 6", Charge into the Platoon to tie you up and keep the big guns from shooting at the Boyz.
Snikrot and a second PK-Boss come in from the back to kill your non-moving Ordance (manticores/Colossus).

Yeah, I can see the IG full deployment in DoW lasting all of 1 battle report.

Course, if I'm deploying my IG at the 24" mark, that means I'm going first. So under your scenario I will have backpedaled for two turns or more to open the distance between my units and his side of the board. That means I'm at 36" or so inches away when he moves on in turn 2. So yeah, go ahead and call taht Waaagh the turn you move on. Somehow, I think I'm still out of assault range.

At this point, I'm more interested in the additional question this has brought up. Must you deploy the entire platoon if you deploy any part of it in DoW? Seems to be a yes to me.

don_mondo wrote:
At this point, I'm more interested in the additional question this has brought up. Must you deploy the entire platoon if you deploy any part of it in DoW? Seems to be a yes to me.

I think that's a pretty clear yes. The FAQ says "Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number of units that can be deployed." That sounds all or nothing to me. The rest of it is about reserves and outflanking.

don_mondo wrote:At this point, I'm more interested in the additional question this has brought up. Must you deploy the entire platoon if you deploy any part of it in DoW? Seems to be a yes to me.

Agreed. I originally overlooked that too.

/shrug

copper.talos wrote:@cowmonaut
I see chimeras in the dedicated transports transports page and platoon in the platoons page.

Anyway Al'Rahem in order to outflank he must be kept in reserves. When arriving from the reserves, chimeras arrive along with the embarked unit because of basic transport/reserve rules, NOT because the chimeras are part of the platoon.

This is demonstrably and explicitly false.

The rules say that if a unit with the USR or Infiltrate or Scout choose to Outflank, and if they are emarked on a DT, the DT can outflank with them.

Does that platoon have Infiltrate or Scout USR? Heck, does i even have Outflank? No, it has none of those things. Al'rahem outflanks, and gets to bring 'his platoon' along with him. He does *not* give a platoon any special rules.

If you use the stance that chimeras are not part of the platoon, then no chimera can go with Al'rahem's platoon when they Outflank with him.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

copper.talos wrote:@cowmonaut If a unit outflanks its dedicated transport come with them. There is no need for the transport itself to have the rule.

You need to re-read the Outflank rule, because you are getting it wrong. His statement is correct.

copper.talos wrote:@nos Is this your argument? Really?

No, but you were ignoring the other 3 arguments and lying through your teeth, so i thought id feed you some more

(Snip increasingly inane text)

copper.talos wrote:The chimera on the contrary is not. How can you possibly (or even worse, convincingly) use the commisar as an example to why the chimera is part of the squad, I don't know...

(my bolding you lying through your teeth)
Good job I wasnt. Yet again you are lying through your teeth by misrepresenting anothers argument in an attempt to build a strawman.

The chimera is brought as part of the platoon. At no point on any forum will you persuade any significant amount of people that you are right, unless GW decide to blow the potential cash cow that this ruling brings them.

I see plenty of places where a chimera is part of the platoon on that page, its mentioned quite a fewtimes. You keep missing it I assume - or did you tippex them out so you could "prove" your argument to yourself?

So what was the point you were trying to make with the commisar? That you're quite good at trolling? I knew that already.

That he is an upgrade for the platoon, and similarly a chimera can be considered one as well

It's just an attempt, one that has apparently gone waaaaay over your head, to show that asininely repeating "DIFFERENT UNIT!!!!! DIFFERENT UNIT!!!!" like it actually has anything whatsoever to do with this FAQ is pointless troll behaviour

Just a tip: i've given constructive arguments and explained my point, and you've been found trolling in two different forums now.

copper.talos wrote:Your question was: Where does the rulebook say that the dedicated transport you took for your troops is itself a troop unit? If you are thinking it does because you bought it for a Troop unit, then why are you arguing against a dedicated transport being part of the Platoon it was bought for?

The answer is in the passage you quoted. The transport count as the same FOC category. It's not in the same slot. So the transport counts as a troop unit in general but not the same troop unit as the unit that bought them. So there is no link to the FOC slot of the chimera and the platoon at all.

The fact we are now on page 8 of arguments going back and forth about whether Chimeras bought for an Infantry Squad in an Infantry Platoon are part of said Platoon (they are) allows me to be as ridiculous as I can be in refuting what copper.talos has stated in the above quoted passage.

It is copper.talos' position that dedicated transports belong to the same FOC category but not the same slot as the unit that it was bought for. Extending this out from just Troops, for the moment, copper.talos would also say that an Elite choice, such as a Pskyer Battle Squad, that also buys a Dedicated Transport, that that DT is in the Elite FOC but not the same slot that the unit that bought it occupies.

Counterargument: Such DT bought for their units' do care which slot they come from as opposed to just the FOC as evidenced by IG Storm Troopers and the Strategic Operation: Reconnaissance. Why is this so? Becuase by virtue of a squad of IG Storm Troopers and the Strategic Operation: Reconnaissance, the Storm Troopers themselves have the Scouts USR, which by virtue of the BRB, says they confer to their DT if deployed inside of it, This again matters as the IG Storm Trooper Chimera, and not some random Elite FOC Chimera (either from another IG ST Sqd, Ogryn, etc.) has the Scout USR as well. Nor does the DT lose that ability after deployment (admittedly it has no other use after deployment but it does differentiate one Elite FOC Chimera from another as one would have the Scouts USR and another would not) nor when the squad inside disembarks. Just by deploying inside it the IG ST give their DT the Scouts USR for the rest of the game.

Again why does this matter? Because the Chimera bought speficially for the IG ST has the Scouts USR while other Elite FOC Chimeras do not, thus individualizeing that particular Chimera to the IG ST (aside from the attachment already refernced by the BRB on pg. 87). So there is precedence where DT do associate with the same slot that they are purchased for. Taking this back to our Troop DT, the same can be said to apply. Chimeras bought as DT for a PCS or Infantry Squad are a PCS or Infantry Squad Chimera respectively and ALSO happen to belong to the whole Platoon concept presented in the IG Codex.

If that isn't enough then there's this:

It has also been argued that because Chimeras aren't listed in the Infantry Platoon Composition on pg. 96 of the IG Codex that they are never a part of the Platoon. I would like to direct those people to pg. 89 of the IG Codex where it says the following concering the Composition:

IG Codex pg. 89 wrote:Unit Composition: Where applicable, this section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades are taken.

Emphasis mine. So yes, before any upgrades are taken I'll agree that the Platoon doesn't include Chimeras. After upgrades are taken, if the Chimera transport option is taken for any PCS or Infantry Squads, then yes the Platoon does include Chimeras in it.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
It is copper.talos' position that dedicated transports belong to the same FOC category but not the same slot as the unit that it was bought for. Extending this out from just Troops, for the moment, copper.talos would also say that an Elite choice, such as a Pskyer Battle Squad, that also buys a Dedicated Transport, that that DT is in the Elite FOC but not the same slot that the unit that bought it occupies

In any case the chimera takes no FOC slot at all. When in a scenario such as DoW, the PBS chimera counts as being from the Elites FOC category
*sigh* Have you ever read the transport rules?


As to "the chimera is an upgrade of the unit" look at this http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/367951.page

No one claimed then that the chimera is an upgrade. The suggestion seemed so wrong that nobody cared to argue otherwise.

The normal game rules tell us that Multiple Unit Choices (BRB page 92, dedicated transports as the example even) bought under the same FOC slot are in all respects otherwise separate units...

The IG Platoon rule in itself countermands this even without the FAQ. It makes no mention of any difference between the mandatory squads, the optional squads or the optional dedicated transports.

edit: pg 96 of the IG codex - no difference made between mandatory or optional units, DTs or not. Either all are a single choice or you'll have to ask people to only deploy the PCS + 2Inf squads.

And in what page of the IG codex can I find that rule?

Some have tried to claim that chimeras are upgrades to the unit, such as a commisar(?) and so the inclusion in the platoon is excused. Don't you think that if there were such a rule, such farfetched arguments wouldn't be needed?

Just check the pages I've listed and you won't need anything farfetched at all to see Chimeras are part of the platoon. They're part of a Multiple Unit Choice, by the example in the BRB - and as the IG codex demands this MUC do certain things the DTs must follow.

The platoon is not a general collection of units. It lists precisely the units that can compose it. Can you see any chimeras in it? Or should I totally disregard that and take random units and make a platoon.

Dedicated transports are given as part of MUCs, being in the same FOC slot and all. IG platoons are a MUC, and you deploy the full FOC choice at once. Chimeras are in the platoon's FOC slot. If you don't deploy them you break the rules.

Have you not read any of the previous arguments? OK let me repeat it for the 131032 time. Dedicated transports don't take the same FOC slot. as the platoon They don't take any FOC slots at all. They count as being from the same FOC category -not slot- in scenarios such as DoW.

Deploying chimeras along with the platoon is allowed as because of the transport's rules, not because they are part of the platoon.

copper.talos wrote:Have you not read any of the previous arguments? OK let me repeat it for the 131032 time. Dedicated transports don't take the same FOC slot. as the platoon They don't take any FOC slots at all. They count as being from the same FOC category -not slot- in scenarios such as DoW.

And for the 131033rd time you are STILL WRONG.

Page 92. Multiple Unit Choices. Have you read it yet, or are you still sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending it doesnt exist?

"at the cost of a single Force Organisation Chart slot (like dedicated transports, etc)"

So, for the 131033rd time, since you like using hyperbole to attempt to prove a point (making it all the more hilarious when you get it wrong, again) care to find a rule saying they arent part of the platoon, because we've found many that show the opposite.

IG codex pg 99 dedicated transports "These vehicles do not use up any Force Organisation Chart selection, but otherwise function as separate units"

BRB pg 67 dedicated transports " These dedicated transports don't use up a slot on the FOC"

BRB pg 92 Multiple unit choices "Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects" - this passage you "forgot" clears up that multiple unit choices except from being bought as a single choice has no other effect in the game at all.

BRB pg. 87

Sometimes a single choice on the force organisation chart will allow you to select more than one unit.

and same page Dedicated Transports

....as they are attached to the unit they are bought for.

Can a SM squad deploy as 1 unit with his attached rhino? No. Why not then? Does the platoon mention units and their attached transports? Are there rules that explain in a platoon how units attached to transports interract differently from the rules in BRB ?

Or should you focus on the fact that they are completely separate units in all respects as emphasised in multiple unit choices?