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Ryan - if you'd read the thread, you would be aware that we are aware that IN THE GAME a dedicated transport is *always* a separate unit.

That is not an issue.

However, according to the FAQ because it is part of the Platoon it *counts as* a single unit JUST for deployment.

ryan3740 wrote:

Trickstick wrote:Don't ICs count as part of a unit for the purpose of reserves?

No. ICs join the unit in the deployment phase and they you roll for the unit they joined when the time comes.

DoW deployment states you can deploy up to two units from your Troops seleciton. For most armies this is troop selection 1 in thier dedictated transport (if you want to deploy the squad in it's transport) or troop selection 2 in non-dedicated transport. Now with this FAQ it's [platoon] with another unit. Where platoon is clearly defined on the top of the page. I have to agree with copper.talos on this. I see no rule in either the IG rulebook or the main rulebook that says dedicated transports are every considered part of the squad that purchased them. Multiple unit choices on page 92 makes it clear to me that they are not considered part of the squad. They are only bought with the squad. It's the, "count as separate units in all respects" that has me.

After I read the wording in the IG codex I felt cheated against the last IG army I played. He deployed his whole platoon as one unit. I guess he jumped the gun on that one.

The transports are normally considered part of the unit for Reserve and deployment purposes, as in they are rolled for together and placed at the same time (although not necessarily next to each other or even in the same part of the board).
It is this timing of when they are being deployed that is being discussed.

The counter-arguments so far has run along the lines of extending that "part of the unit" to extreme lengths in order to discredit the original premise, or zooming in on the "part of the unit" (disregarding the "for reserve and deployment purposes") and pointing to another rule, concerning another issue, and saying; "See? It isn't part of the unit!".

Fearspect wrote:For those stating that you cannot deploy the whole platoon with their transports for Dawn of War, would you also say that when you roll Al'Rahem's platoon to come in outflanked that they cannot come in with their transports? That seems like the same thing.

Al'Rahem's platoon takes one dice roll to see if they come in. The platoon's transports will all have to be rolled separately (because they are empty). Al'Rahem's platoon MUST outflank, so the only way to do that is outside thier vehicles since I do not believe the chimeras get scout.

copper.talos wrote:The FAQ says that the platoon arrives from reserves as one, and it directly implies that dedicated transports arrive with them. This is normal for dedicated transport. They have always arrived with their unit from reserves using 1 reserve roll. BRB pg 94. No need to be considered part of the platoon for the faq to be valid.

Steelmage99 wrote:The transports are normally considered part of the unit for Reserve and deployment purposes, as in they are rolled for together and placed at the same time (although not necessarily next to each other or even in the same part of the board). It is this timing of when they are being deployed that is being discussed.

Dedicated transports do not always deploy at the same time as the squad who bought them. You make a reserve roll for each unit in reserves. If they are combined (IC joins squad or one unit is in a transport) then you roll once for the combined unit. If I decide to leave my Dire Avengers in reserve not embarked in the transport I bought with them, then I will roll twice - once for the Dire Avengers and once for the wave serpent. Just like when I deploy in dawn of war I may deploy my dire avengers and their wave serpent as my two troops choices. They are always two units deployed and in reserve. At no time do I treat them as a single unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ryan - if you'd read the thread, you would be aware that we are aware that IN THE GAME a dedicated transport is *always* a separate unit.

That is not an issue.

However, according to the FAQ because it is part of the Platoon it *counts as* a single unit JUST for deployment.

Yes, I understand that this thread deals with the FAQ and DoW deployment. The part I don't understand is why you guys think that a transport is *part of a platoon*? There is the platoon ... and their transports. Platoon = PCS, infantry squads, heavy weapon squads,... Everything listed on the top of page 96. I see no dedicated transports in that list. I see a "Platoon counts as a single unit" and not "Platoon and their dedicated transports count as a single unit." That is what I need to see before I would agree with you guys.

The two sides to this disagreement are those who think "Whole Platoon" is the infantry and the transports and those who think "Whole Platoon"is just the infantry.

I'm in the second group just because GW has it throughout the rulebook that dedicated transports are not part of the unit. Not in deploying for Dawn of war, not in reserving, not in moving, shooting, assaulting, morale purposes,...

I'm not saying that I'm right and you should all play my way. I'm saying that this is my interpretation of the rules. Tomorrow if we play each other in a friendly game then we'd have to roll off to see if you get to place your chimeras with the squad if we use Dawn of war deployment. If we were in a tournament then we would ask the T.O.

BTW, for those of you that were thinking you deploy two Force Organization selections, you are thinking of the 4th edition Patrol mission. You are more than welcome to play that mission if you want. It is still a quite good mission.

I am a bit confused on this issue also. We have been playing DoW the last few times.

I have my Command Squad with a Chimera, no problem there.
I have been running a blob platoon consisting of the PCS with a Chimera, 30 man squad and 3 HWTs.

My question is, can I deploy all of that counting as 1 troop choice in the first turn of the game? Or do I have to leave the Chimeras out? I have been told both ways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ARGH

Personally, I have sympathies with both sides ... but everyone seems to be searching for some kind of symmetry that isn't there. There is no logic.

I mean, if I have a comp comm sec and a chimera, I can't deploy them both, but they would both arrive together, if the unit was embarked.

They may be "attached" one may be an "upgrade", they occupy the same "type" on the foc and, that's why they can't both deploy!!!

What sort of logic is that, when we (laughably, perhaps) expect the rules to mesh seamlessly ... when they don't.

Ryan - and, again, your basis for deciding the chimera is not part of the platoon is because you start talking about them being separate units

EVERY SINGLE UNIT IN THE PLATOON IS A SEPARATE UNIT

Understand now? Your defining difference is not, in fact, a difference.

Are commisars part of the platoon? They are not part of the platoon composition. They ARE an upgrade for a unit, same as a chimera is bought for a unique and upgrades its abilities.

Chimera are part of the platoon. Not one sngle person EVER has EVER stated they are not, prior to this FAQ, not in many hundreds of games against IG opponents since t enew book came out. It has never even been considered an issue.

To suddenly claim it in light of this FAQ is dishonest.

ryan3740 wrote:

Fearspect wrote: Al'Rahem's platoon takes one dice roll to see if they come in. The platoon's transports will all have to be rolled separately (because they are empty). Al'Rahem's platoon MUST outflank, so the only way to do that is outside thier vehicles since I do not believe the chimeras get scout.

The transport doesn't need to have Scout to Outflank. I think this is part of the problem, people think that only units with Infiltrate and Scout can Outflank. There are exceptions to this in other army lists, where a unit is given the ability to Outflank without being given Scout or Infiltrate. Easiest example again is the Space Wolf Saga of the Hunter. This Saga gives the HQ choice the ability to Outflank. Normally if an IC joins a unit, that unit cannot Outflank because the IC does not have the ability to. If it takes Saga of the Hunter, now it can.

Similar thing here. Al'Rahem's ability gives all units of his Platoon the ability to outflank and the requirement that they do so. The crux of the argument for both the DoW deployment and the Outflanking is are the transports part of the Platoon? The FAQ on its own seems to say so, given it specifically states that units of the Platoon in a non-dedicated transport are rolled for separately. This directly implies that if they are in a dedicated transport it would still only be one roll for reserves and outflanking.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
However, according to the FAQ because it is part of the Platoon it *counts as* a single unit JUST for deployment.

Yes, I understand that this thread deals with the FAQ and DoW deployment. The part I don't understand is why you guys think that a transport is *part of a platoon*? There is the platoon ... and their transports. Platoon = PCS, infantry squads, heavy weapon squads,... Everything listed on the top of page 96. I see no dedicated transports in that list. I see a "Platoon counts as a single unit" and not "Platoon and their dedicated transports count as a single unit." That is what I need to see before I would agree with you guys.

The two sides to this disagreement are those who think "Whole Platoon" is the infantry and the transports and those who think "Whole Platoon"is just the infantry.

I'm in the second group just because GW has it throughout the rulebook that dedicated transports are not part of the unit. Not in deploying for Dawn of war, not in reserving, not in moving, shooting, assaulting, morale purposes,...

The IG Platoon is unique however. It's a ForceOrg choice made up of multiple units that are independent in every way outside of deployment and reserves.

Look, is a Rhino taken by a Tactical Squad a "troop" choice? The rules in two different places imply that they are: 1) when GW explicitly states that dedicated transports don't take up a ForceOrg slot and (possibly) 2) when GW says a vehicle cannot be a scoring unit. However what seems to be argued here is that the dedicated transport has nothing to do with the unit that bought it, other than allowing them to start in it.

If what is being argued is true you couldn't have any transport on the table in Dawn of War. After all, you are only allowed 1 HQ unit and 2 Troop units. Where does the rulebook say that the dedicated transport you took for your troops is itself a troop unit? If you are thinking it does because you bought it for a Troop unit, then why are you arguing against a dedicated transport being part of the Platoon it was bought for?

Either everyone in the world has been playing wrong all this time or, however unfortunate it may be, IG now can put down up to 13 Chimeras on the table in DoW games. Take your pick, you can't have it both ways.

nosferatu1001 wrote: It has never even been considered an issue.

This ^ is why this ...

nosferatu1001 wrote:To suddenly claim it in light of this FAQ is dishonest.

... is entirely uncalled for.

It wasn't an issue, now it is, to form and express an opinion on it now, is hardly dishonest, it's entirely reasonable.

No, it was an issue when making a roll for the platoon to come in from reserves - even empty chimera were rolled for at the time.

EVERY time I have seen people use platoons every single person has figured, correctly, that the chimera are part of the platoon. Only now are some people desperately trying to find a way around it.

cowmonaut wrote:
If what is being argued is true you couldn't have any transport on the table in Dawn of War. After all, you are only allowed 1 HQ unit and 2 Troop units. Where does the rulebook say that the dedicated transport you took for your troops is itself a troop unit? If you are thinking it does because you bought it for a Troop unit, then why are you arguing against a dedicated transport being part of the Platoon it was bought for?

Of course there is a rule about it, it's in BRB pg 87.

A platoon consists of the units in its composition. The "link" between platoon and chimeras is an infantry squad. A chimera & infantry squads interract using the dedicated transport rules. These rules allow the chimera to
A. be bought without using a FOC slot
B count as the same FOC category -not slot- as the squad that bought it
C. come from reserves along with the unit that bought it using 1 roll
D start the game with only the unit that bought it embarked in it

Those are the only rules. Transports are not upgrades, commisar-like-characters, or wargear of any sorts. Both BRB and codex IG empasize that they are completely separate units in all regards.

If this interraction between a DT and its unit is not sufficient to make it count as one unit when ie an SM squad and a rhino deploy in DoW, how can it possibly provide a "link" to make a chimera count as one unit with a platoon?

copper.talos wrote:If this interraction between a DT and its unit is not sufficient to make it count as one unit when ie an SM squad and a rhino deploy in DoW, how can it provide a "link" to make a chimera part of a platoon ?

Because there's no FAQ supporting it for the SM+Rhino.

danpieri wrote:I am a bit confused on this issue also. We have been playing DoW the last few times. I have my Command Squad with a Chimera, no problem there.

Actually, that is a problem. Company Command Squad = 1 HQ unit, their chimera is a separate HQ unit .
Page 87, Dedicated transports, “Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organizataion structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for. When this disctinction is called for [...], dedicated transport vehicles count as being from the same force organization category as the unit they were bought for.”
That's two HQ units you have deployed while DoW says you can only have one

nosferatu1001 wrote:Chimera are part of the platoon. Not one sngle person EVER has EVER stated they are not, prior to this FAQ, not in many hundreds of games against IG opponents since the new book came out. It has never even been considered an issue.

To suddenly claim it in light of this FAQ is dishonest.

It never was an issue with me before. The FAQ errata changed the wording and now it is. When something changes you can't expect your actions to not change.

Before the FAQ you could only deploy 2 units from the platoon in DoW. After the FAQ you can deploy the whole platoon. That's quite a big change there.

Before the FAQ you could deploy the whole platoon in the old Patrol mission. After the FAQ you can still do that. See the difference?

The problem is that in other scenarios, rolling for the platoon meant even the transports came on.

Now that they specified this applies to Dawn of War, it MATTERS.

It has always happened, though.

Editing to add:
I actually played in a tourney years back that played it this way in DoW and it blew me away.
(Figuratively. We actually tied. >< )

kirsanth wrote:The problem is that in other scenarios, rolling for the platoon meant even the transports came on.

If you declared in your deployment phase that the squads were embarked in their transports, then you would only roll once for the platoon and the combined transports would come in too. If you declared that the transports were empty, then you should have rolled for the empty transports separately.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It has never even been considered an issue.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, it was an issue when making a roll for the platoon to come in from reserves - even empty chimera were rolled for at the time.

copper.talos wrote:Of course there is a rule about it, it's in BRB pg 87.

I'm blind apparently. I was wondering about that.

Dedicated Transports
Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organization structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for. When this distinction is called for (for example in some missions or deployment types), dedicated transports count as being from the same force organisation category as the unit they were bought for. For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (Troops) counts as a unit of Troops, but if it was bought for a unit of Veterans (Elites) it would counts as Elites.

Unfortunately this doesn't help us here.

copper.talos wrote:
If this interraction between a DT and its unit is not sufficient to make it count as one unit when ie an SM squad and a rhino deploy in DoW, how can it possibly provide a "link" to make a chimera count as one unit with a platoon?

And this is why, as was previously mentioned. The exception to the rules is the Infantry Platoon entry itself.

We're going in circles. Again it comes down to are the Chimeras part of the Infantry Platoon. Many say yes, many say no. I'm starting to see the argument for "no" now but I'm still convinced that they would be part of the Infantry Platoon.

Your question was: Where does the rulebook say that the dedicated transport you took for your troops is itself a troop unit? If you are thinking it does because you bought it for a Troop unit, then why are you arguing against a dedicated transport being part of the Platoon it was bought for?

The answer is in the passage you quoted. The transport count as the same FOC category. It's not in the same slot. So the transport counts as a troop unit in general but not the same troop unit as the unit that bought them. So there is no link to the FOC slot of the chimera and the platoon at all.

copper.talos wrote:but not the same troop unit

No one cares.
That is not the point.

It's not part of the platoon's composition, it's not part of or counts as one with a unit in the platoon's composition, then how on earth did it end up inside the platoon's composition?

Funny, the question you continually refuse to answer (one of many, actually, but we'll focus on this for now) is: A Commisar is ALSO not stated as being part of the platoon composition. So does that mean a commissar is not part of the platoon?

Answer or desist with your continual ignorance of the rules.

copper.talos wrote:It's not part of the platoon's composition, it's not part of or counts as one with a unit in the platoon's composition, then how on earth did it end up inside the platoon's composition?

And yet it is bought from the Platoon entry under the PCS or Inf Squad dedicated transport. So how is it not part of the platoon?

I agree with you nos but you really shouldn't use the commissar example. He is part of the infantry squad and is not a seperate unit at all, so there would never be a question about him not being a part of the platoon.

nosferatu1001:

Mind you I'm on yourside, but I'm not sure that argument holds.

Look at page 89 of Codex: Imperial Guard. You'll see this entry:

Unit Composition: Where applicable, this section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades are taken.

The Infantry Platoon isn't a unit so I don't think this applies, but it explains why a Commissar would be part of the Infantry Platoon. Unfortunately that page also lists out Dedicated Transports separately from Options, and the Options entry is explained as the "upgrades" for the unit.

I still think that Infantry Platoon should/does include the dedicated transports but don't think the Commissar argument works to defend it.

don_mondo wrote:

copper.talos wrote:It's not part of the platoon's composition, it's not part of or counts as one with a unit in the platoon's composition, then how on earth did it end up inside the platoon's composition?

And yet it is bought from the Platoon entry under the PCS or Inf Squad dedicated transport. So how is it not part of the platoon?

Agreed. That's really my point. The dedicated transport is purchased as part of the Infantry Platoon when you build your army list. Just like the Infantry Squads and PCS. Its part of the Infantry Platoon entry.

But the Chimera is a dedicated transport for the CCS and the PCS. How can it be a separate command choice if there is no command squad in it?

@nos Is this your argument? Really?
Does the commisar have a rule that says it is a separate unit from the squad? No. Chimera? Yes
Can the commisar deploy without the squad? No. Chimera? Yes
Is the Commisar bought as a transport for the squad? No Chimera? Yes

A commisar is an integral part of the squad. Until he dies it's always there. It's in all respects part of the squad and so it becomes one with the platoon. The chimera on the contrary is not. How can you possibly (or even worse, convincingly) use the commisar as an example to why the chimera is part of the squad, I don't know...

+1 to cowmonaut. He has a good point too regarding the commisar comparison.

@cowmonaut You are not buying the chimera as part of the platoon. You are buying it as a transport for a squad. The rules for transports don't make them part of the platoon.

copper.talos wrote:Does the commisar have a rule that says it is a separate unit from the squad?

This does not matter. Platoons are still composed of multiple units. Those units are all allowed to be placed instead of a single unit.

Yes, but only the units that make a platoon. Platoon composition doesn't mention any transports at all. There must be a rule to justify adding transports to a platoon, not a rule to justify that a transport is not part of a platoon.

So I'm buying the Chimera from some other Force org slot and randomly deciding who gets it? No, I don't think so. It's bought from the platoon pages, and IMO, that makes it part of the platoon.

Bottom line, round and round we go. You're not gonna change my mind, I'm not gonna change yours. How about we agree to disagree, lock this and wait for GW to realize that there's a disagreement on the matter. (Problem being, they may think it's so straightforward that it doesn't need an FAQ "OF course it's ............)

You don't buy the transport from another FOC. They don't belong to the FOC at all. They only count as the being from a FOC category under certain circumstances.
And chimeras are not part of the platoon page, they are part of the dedicated transports page.

Anyway, I too wish it will get a quick fix. This can ruin whole tournaments.

copper.talos wrote:You don't buy the transport from another FOC. They don't belong to the FOC at all. They only count as the being from a FOC category under certain circumstances.
And chimeras are not part of the platoon page, they are part of the dedicated transports page.

Um, you are wrong there. They are "part of the platoon page". That's why there is a section of the Infantry Squad and PCS that tells you to go look on Page 99 for point costs, stats, and options for the transport. Your argument is akin to complaining that the weapons stats aren't listed on the platoon page so they guardsmen are not armed.

GW really didn't think this one through when they answered it. At the same time though, how many tournaments allowed Al'Rahem to Outflank in Chimeras? The reason that I ask is because if Al'Rahem can Outflank in Chimeras, then you can deploy Chimeras in Dawn of War. Al'Rahem's special rule states "members of his infantry platoon must outflank". It only gives Outflank to units of his platoon. So if Chimeras got Outflank from him, then they get to be deployed in Dawn of War.

This question has to have come up in several tourneys before. A brief Google search just turns up random forums with lists and discussions of Al'Rahem outflanking in Chimeras, but that's not close enough to official to matter. Need to see some Tournement rulings or FAQs that state Al'Rahem can't take dedicated transports. That's the proof you need copper.talos, and if it doesn't exist then I'd say you are just wrong.