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We are saying it's part of the platoon.

copper.talos wrote:You see this is where you are wrong. The way infantry squads take a dedicated transport is no different than an SM squad can take an dedicated transport. So using your way of thinking and keeping in mind that the rules for transports regarding a chimera and a rhino are exactly the same, you can say that just as "The Dedicated Transport is part of the Infantry Squad..." that "The Dedicated Transport is part of the SM Squad". Although it isn't. Your way of thinking is wrong. They are separate units and in DoW count as 2 units deployed.

Except there isn't an FAQ that says the SM squad and the Rhino are one unit for deployment. There is for IG Platoons.

And Copper is back to the same error he was making a couple pages back.

This ONLY affects platoons because, and heres the bit Copper keeps missing - the errata only mentions platoons.

At no point are we saying theyre the same unit in the game, just for deployment, and because the errata states they are.

The counts-as argument has swayed me the other way.

While The Chimera is indeed a dedicated transport (which has rules backing in the BRB), the FAQ instructs you to treat them as one unit when deploying them in a specific mission deployment restrictions. The FAQ is a codex specific versus the general rules for the BRB.

Interesting move by GW to try and give footslogging IG a chance at an alpha strike tactic. Do I see it working? Not at all.

copper.talos wrote:You see this is where you are wrong. The way infantry squads take a dedicated transport is no different than an SM squad can take an dedicated transport. So using your way of thinking and keeping in mind that the rules for transports regarding a chimera and a rhino are exactly the same, you can say that just as "The Dedicated Transport is part of the Infantry Squad..." that "The Dedicated Transport is part of the SM Squad". Although it isn't. Your way of thinking is wrong. They are separate units and in DoW count as 2 units deployed.

Space Marines are a different beast entirely unfortunately. You seem to have a conceptual misunderstanding of the Infantry Platoon option of the Imperial Guard Codex.

Multiple Unit Choices
Note that occasionally the Codexes allow the player to include several units in his army at the cost of a single force organisation slot (like dedicated transports, etc.). Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects.

Source: Page 92, Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook

So this would shut down putting 2 Tactical Squads, each in a Rhino, on the table in Dawn of War.

Edit: By the way, related/tied to this subject, I don't see how some people think Combat Squads allows for you to have 4 units on the table in Dawn of War. The way its worded, you Combat Squad when you deploy the unit and from that point forward they are treated as separate units for all game purposes. Means you already have 2 on the table so you're done. The Space Marine FAQ doesn't say otherwise anywhere.

The FAQ entry for Infantry Platoons however, as I quoted previously, trumps the rulebook. The benefit of taking Infantry Platoons is that you get to ignore the limitation and can deploy up to 2 Infantry Platoons on the table during Dawn of War missions.

The Chimera is part of the Infantry Platoon. It may be a separate unit from its owning Infantry Squad for operational purposes, but it is still under the umbrella of the Infantry Platoon entry. You're just wrong here, until Games-Workshop explicitly states otherwise.

I see a few tournaments potentially banning it, as the sheer amount of firepower IG could put down is simply crazy.

It does now make Infantry platoons superior to melta vets - in 1 mission.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Particularly since you could use this, if you went first, to literally cover the midline and force your opponent to deploy only in the rear 6" of his deployment zone. Site the lascannon HWTs a bit further back, and you can open fire on literally any point in your enemy's deployment zone turn 1.

You can do that with a 20 man blob anyways. No real biggie there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, one guy disagrees, can this be locked now?

cowmonaut wrote:Units that are part of the Infantry Platoon that are in non-dedicated transports are rolled for separately because the transport they are in still needs to make a reserve roll. This is how Land Raiders have worked since 5th Edition was released so its absurd that its confusing people now. You can hold a unit in reserve and put them in a Land raider or Falcon Grav Tank or any other vehicle that has a Transport Capacity. You only make one reserve roll then, and its for the encapsulating vehicle. The cargo literally gets a free ride.

Actually, I think this is false. The FAQ rules do not give you permission to deploy the Infantry Platoon in several parts. You are required to deploy the entire platoon in place of a single unit. If you put part of the platoon in a non-dedicated transport you can not deploy, you have broken the requirements as stated in the FAQ. It would be similar to deploying a SM combat squad in a transport, while keeping the other part of the squad in reserve. Note that this is only true for the IG platoon in a mission that limits the number of deployed units.

Yep, that's something that hasn't been hit on yet (and would best be in a separate thread, so that it doesn't get lost in the DT discussion. As written, it certainly does seem to be an all or nothing if deploying a platoon in DoW.

Mandor,

That quote doesn't say what you are arguing against. The quote is about units in reserve that are in a non-dedicated transport having only a single roll, for the non-dedicated transport. You can hold an entire Infantry Platoon in reserve, and the non-dedicated transport that some of the Platoon's units may be using would not get the benefit of the Platoon roll.

What you are saying is an excellent catch though! If you deploy a unit, you have to deploy all of it so that does mean that if you set up an Infantry Platoon in Dawn of War you will likely have to deploy all of it or none of it. Something is nagging at the back of my head for some reason. Will see if I can think of what is bugging me about that, but I think you are correct in that regard. It doesn't negate what I said though.

cowmonaut wrote:I've been speculating for a while of making a Mechanized Imperial Guard army, this might just push me over the edge. Only downside is I wouldn't know what to take for an HQ.

How about a priest with Al'Rahem? I think that it is one of the only times that an IC won't cause a unit to lose outflank, as the platoon "must" outflank yet you can still attach characters. Or you could just go for a psyker/ccs with the rest of your forces.

Am I right in thinking that an attached priest can outflank with Al'Rahem?

Getting a little off topic, but the IC wouldn't be able to Join Al'Rahem's Platoon units unless it had Outflank as well (my understanding as a Space Wolf player due to the FAQ clarifications for Saga of the Hunter).

Reviewed the thread again, sounds like most of us agree on the transports. Will be interesting to see if this turns into an issue at the FLGS.

cowmonaut wrote:Mandor,

That quote doesn't say what you are arguing against. The quote is about units in reserve that are in a non-dedicated transport having only a single roll, for the non-dedicated transport. You can hold an entire Infantry Platoon in reserve, and the non-dedicated transport that some of the Platoon's units may be using would not get the benefit of the Platoon roll.

What you are saying is an excellent catch though! If you deploy a unit, you have to deploy all of it so that does mean that if you set up an Infantry Platoon in Dawn of War you will likely have to deploy all of it or none of it. Something is nagging at the back of my head for some reason. Will see if I can think of what is bugging me about that, but I think you are correct in that regard. It doesn't negate what I said though.

What you said is correct in general. Just not in this specific case with the IG platoon, because of this silly FAQ ruling. That's why I mentioned it.

cowmonaut wrote:Getting a little off topic...

Only a tiny bit, as it involves using a priest as your only HQ choice.

The Wolf Lord can still join the scout unit, he just prevents them from outflanking. However, if the priest joins the platoon then either he outflanks or the platoon can't outflank, which isn't possible.

Or youre not allowed to join him, as that would cause a rule to be broken.

Nothing prevents ICs outflanking though. They don't get to make use of scouts, as it disappears when you attach an IC. However, Al'Rahem doesn't use scouts, he uses his own special rule that says nothing about losing it if an IC joins.

But nothing in Rahem's rule says it is conferred to anything other than the platoon units. And sorry, but for this purpose, that IC is a separate unit that does not have any method of outflank.

don_mondo wrote:But nothing in Rahem's rule says it is conferred to anything other than the platoon units. And sorry, but for this purpose, that IC is a separate unit that does not have any method of outflank.

+1 This.
If the Priest was listed as a part of the platoon on pg. 96(like a Commissar), i'd be okay with it.

Don't ICs count as part of a unit for the purpose of reserves?

Trickstick wrote:Don't ICs count as part of a unit for the purpose of reserves?

No. ICs join the unit in the deployment phase and they you roll for the unit they joined when the time comes.

DoW deployment states you can deploy up to two units from your Troops seleciton. For most armies this is troop selection 1 in thier dedictated transport (if you want to deploy the squad in it's transport) or troop selection 2 in non-dedicated transport. Now with this FAQ it's [platoon] with another unit. Where platoon is clearly defined on the top of the page. I have to agree with copper.talos on this. I see no rule in either the IG rulebook or the main rulebook that says dedicated transports are every considered part of the squad that purchased them. Multiple unit choices on page 92 makes it clear to me that they are not considered part of the squad. They are only bought with the squad. It's the, "count as separate units in all respects" that has me.

After I read the wording in the IG codex I felt cheated against the last IG army I played. He deployed his whole platoon as one unit. I guess he jumped the gun on that one.

My thoughts about all the Al'Rahem outflanking and having an independent character attached it this. Snikrot's ambush rule says his unit may arrive from reserves on any table edge, and as the Ork FAQ has said this includes ICs. Now Al'rahem's platoon must outflank. My question is why does the word may allow us to have an IC attached to the unit arrive with them, and not the word must?

Keep something in mind, outflank is not a USR so it is not lost by a unit that has it if joined by a character that doesn't. We've already found that out from the Valkyrie/Vendetta ruling a couple years back, when the big debate was can the vehicle outflank or use scouts when the unit inside does not, that adding a squad without the rule does not prevent you from outflanking.

Outflank is simple a way of arriving from reserve, so long as the unit is capable of it. An IC does not stop the outflank rule, he stops the scout and infiltrate rule.

I guess further on the Al'Rahem subject, but ignoring the IC part.

For those stating that you cannot deploy the whole platoon with their transports for Dawn of War, would you also say that when you roll Al'Rahem's platoon to come in outflanked that they cannot come in with their transports? That seems like the same thing.

Thought that I would pop off a quick question before bed:

In DoW, can you deploy half of a platoon and keep the other half in reserve? Say I wanted to deploy 1x CCS, 2x PCS and 2x HWS from different platoons, whilst keeping the 4x infantry squads off the table. Is this still fine? I would think yes but was wondering what others thought.

I'm pretty sure it is a situation that is not covered at all by the rules, as a single unit would never usually have this option anyway, at least before the platoon 'pseudo unit' for DoW.

Edit: Basically, as the platoon is deployed "in place of a single unit", are you forced to deploy either the entire platoon or none of it?

Each infantry platoon is deployed in place of a single unit; is half an infantry platoon an infantry platoon?

Since it states 1 infantry platoon = 1 unit for DoW, i'm going to go ahead and say whole platoons only, since if you left off the HWS or an Infantry Squad, you haven't deployed the platoon, you've deployed part of the platoon.

I realy can't see why this is so important. So a IG platoon can deploy a DT with them on DoW. It's not a big deal, I can say that every army list has something to deal with AV 12.

The issue people are having, kinratha, is that Imperial Guard can now deploy their platoons and all of their DTs. It gets tricky to deal with when you start talking 6+ transports.

Normally I think the dedicated transport would be a seperate unit (its pretty clear in the DoW rules in the BRB), BUT.....

...given how the FAQ reads, it DOES sound like the chimera will be able to deploy with the rest of the platoon. ONLY becuase of the way the FAQ entry is written.

Just my 2 cents.

Doesn't the rule book say one troops choice, because that's what i've always done in DoW and stick in an entire platoon

undead flesh addict wrote:Doesn't the rule book say one troops choice, because that's what i've always done in DoW and stick in an entire platoon

A lot of people assume so, but no it does not. You can only deploy two troop units, not two choices.

Cortez667 wrote:
...given how the FAQ reads, it DOES sound like the chimera will be able to deploy with the rest of the platoon. ONLY becuase of the way the FAQ entry is written.

The FAQ says that the platoon arrives from reserves as one, and it directly implies that dedicated transports arrive with them. This is normal for dedicated transport. They have always arrived with their unit from reserves using 1 reserve roll. BRB pg 94. No need to be considered part of the platoon for the faq to be valid.