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2012/01/22 22:35:39
Subject: Genestealer(s) vs. Predator (WARNING: a cross-fictional versus thread)
See Description.
I know its Wiki but it provides the most reasonable info on Predators that I could find. However as I stated before, without Agreeable rules, its hard to say on average what would occur
I have dug my grave in this place and I will triumph or I will die!
Proud member of the I won with Zerkova club
Advocate of 'Jack heavy Khador.
2012/01/22 22:37:29
Subject: Genestealer(s) vs. Predator (WARNING: a cross-fictional versus thread)
The same wargear of a genestealer is needed here with it's various mutations it only makes sense that to bring it into the equation. I admitantly don't know wat most of this does but keep in mind that every brood of the genestealers will be able to rapidly adapt against the predators. 1v1 it's too situational cause i feel confident say a plasma caster is more or less a plasma pistol or plasma gun at best cause to me a cannon doesn't make much sense. I think if the pred got the best scenario it is his hands down but knowing as much as i do about genestealer methods its too likely it would trick the predator once it realizes it is being tracked similar to the original predator movie or like the Aliens in AVP.
" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog
List of Da Propahly Zogged!!!
2012/01/23 02:27:32
Subject: Re:Genestealer(s) vs. Predator (WARNING: a cross-fictional versus thread)
Yeah, pulse rifles are powerful. Do you have evidence (other than your assumptions) that they're weaker than lasguns? Not surprisingly, you're citing fan-written articles as your sources. This is how you cite proper sources...
Colonial Marines Technical Manual:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Some Sources:
AVP DUEL
AVP WAR Aliens Labyrinth
Aliens Book 2
Aliens Rouge
Aliens Music of the Spears
Alien Berserker
Aliens Stronghold
Aliens Genocide Novel
AVP War
AVP Duel
You're not citing sources...you're just listing publications. Either describe relevant parts accurately in detail or provide scans/quotes.
In music of the spears ninjas go up against aliens with swords suffering causalities due to their blood which they rectify by focusing on limb removal instead of head strikes. The ninjas manage to steal an egg from the aliens killing those aliens guarding it.
In Warhammer Monthly, a tribal human kills a Lictor with spear and sword...
In Aliens Genocide the novel
This is how they collect the aliens' royal jelly...
Standard Procedure:
Spoiler:
Upgraded Procedure:
Spoiler:
when Danny Glover (plus a dozen known humans) are able to go toe to toe with one of them an walk away the victor?
YOUR ARGUMENT IS IDIOTIC/IRRELEVANT FOR THE FOLLOWING REASONS:
1) READ THE OP THIS THREAD FEATURES A SPECIFIC PREDATOR. We're not talking about random predators. We're not talking about the predator in Predator 2. We're talking about "Smiley". 2) The Predator in Predator 2 could've killed Danny Glover on multiple occasions but chose not to. In the first scene, he could've easily blasted Danny Glover. When he hung Danny Boy's necklace on a tree branch, he could've easily killed Danny Glover. When Danny Glover was kneeling on the ground, the predator could've finished him off quickly but instead chose to savor the kill.
3) The predator slaughtered all of his human opponents in the movie except for the main protagonist. The plot required Danny Glover to win. Statistically Danny Glover's victory was a fluke. Gangs of humans had to die before a human managed to beat the predator.
Shoulder Cannon: Where is it stated that the predators are able to adjust their cannon strength to deal with tougher targets?
In the games: AvP 1999, AvP 2001, AvP 2010, Predator Concrete Jungle. Shots can be charged up to varying degrees.
More importantly, anyone with a brain can figure out that there are only a few possible explanations for power variation:
different shoulder cannon models, power settings, or inconsistent showings...take your pick
I've already called you out on your BS. There's no way a human would survive the shoulder cannon in AvP, AvP-R, and the comic book examples I've given. Smiley's shoulder cannon is plenty powerful:
Why are you attaching these irrelevant pictures? AGAIN, READ THE OP That predator (nicknamed "Shorty") was the little runt of his clan. All the other predators bullied him because he was physically stunted and abnormally small for his race. He was at the bottom of the hierarchy, the omega of his pack.
How would "Shorty" be comparable to an alpha predator like "Smiley"? Answer: He would not
As for the woman he's fighting, that character is a "normal human" in the sense that Batman and Tarzan are "normal humans"
This message was edited 15 times. Last update was at 2012/02/04 05:10:30
As for the woman he's fighting, that character is a "normal human" in the sense that Batman and Tarzan are "normal humans"
And Batman beat a predator.
1) I doubt he'd beat the specific predator in the OP 2) Batman beats a lot of things he shouldn't be able to beat
3) Non-canon cross-over (there are many...Predator vs. Superman, Predator vs. JLA, Predator vs. Magnus Robot Fighter, Predator vs. Judge Dredd, Aliens vs. Predator vs. Terminator etc.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/23 15:12:00
Still, a pred is maybe as strong as a marine. Maybe. However the pred isnt armored. In the fluff genestealers are a majot threat to marines. Who wear power armor. So since preds are unarmored and arnt as fast as a genestealer, a pred would be stealer food. Since smiley is a hero pred, i say he maybe hits it once before the stealer kills him.
Proud to be Obliviously Blue since 2011!
2012/01/23 19:36:44
Subject: Genestealer(s) vs. Predator (WARNING: a cross-fictional versus thread)
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Who wear power armor. So since preds are unarmored and arnt as fast as a genestealer, a pred would be stealer food.
Personal armour isn't much protection against Genestealers, although the additional strength and vision settings it provides could come in handy (both of which the Predator may already have the equal or better of). Bolters are presumably not that effective against Genestealers since normal Astartes don't get sent into Genestealer-infested Space Hulks unless something goes wrong (although that may have to do with numbers and reloading rather than a bolt not killing a Genestealers).
The average Predator in close-combat with a Genestealer would likely die a messy death. This Predator may well be capable of taking a some down individually, but in a two-on-one situation I'd give it to the Genestealers regardless. Weapons change everything, of course, but Genestealers are pretty good at dodging. Six-to-one odds in a Space Hulk (I think that that was the situation presented) I give to the Genestealers. If the Predator has its mask on, I'm not sure if the Genestealer could hypnotise it.
2012/01/23 21:39:03
Subject: Genestealer(s) vs. Predator (WARNING: a cross-fictional versus thread)
Pictures below show numerous examples of predator limitation in both biology, armor, and weaponry. This displays the physical threshold of predator biology and equipment - whether the predators depicted are the all time most skilled predators in the universe or some random average joe hunter (who already make up the upper top level of their species) is irrelevant; same biology and weaponry are being measured. Numerous similar examples exist throughout multiple published story lines - images that provide a chartable example of their capabilities.
Actually measurable results displayed:
1) shoulder caster deflected by wall.
2) firearm and hand weapons destroy/damage predator equipment in a manner that displays equipments durability.
3) A dated bladed instrument swung one handed by a human defeated predator biology by severing bone, flesh, mesh, and muscle of its arm - Predator durability (their biological limit as a species) can be charted.
4) Gun rounds pass through the predator’s body even after penetrating two layers of its armor.
Only if we are accepting the notion that a character predator is composed of biological different material than other "normal" predators with completely different and superiorly built equipment do examples of predator limitations (being repeatedly bested by normal humans)
become questionable. Saying a bullet to the exposed head will kill a normal man so it will kill batman is a fair argument. Saying a bullet to the head will kill superman isn’t because superman is in a different category - a predator character isn’t. Predator characters are not different creatures than all the other hundreds of predators killed by humans. The argument that batman can survive 50 Gs of acceleration, getting shot in the face with a cannon, gargling acid, or survive forces which would complete destroy a human body people are valid because contrary opinions are only to produce non-batman examples of humans dying to these effects is ridiculous. What reliable kills a human also reliable kills a predator; this is clearly established hundreds of times in the reliable sources (dark horse publishing and movies)
Mortal Combat plus many other video games: Humans demonstrate predator video game level strength and much more. Note this is mentioned to illustrate the error of using video games as sources - I am not advocating that a human can tear the head off a bear even though there is probably several games featuring such abilities. There exist games in which the user is marine who kills numerous predators, but I pretty sure most people will agree that video games do not override established sources. Video power-ups are not a reliable example of predator cannon strength fluctuation.
Again, were are the examples of a predator doing something that is outside the bounds of human ability? Orks, eldar, necrons, and of course space marines demonstrate super human ability - performing at a level no normal human can hope to replicate. Humans have been been assimilated into predator culture and thrived there despite needing to constantly compete against predators - something my early picture showed.
im2randomghgh wrote:Actually, predator characters ARE physically superior
see: Super predators.
These are the predators depicted in the movie Predators. Are you saying that the extreme upper end of the predator species can be cut down by some guy with a sword? And a small group of confused humans who never met before are able to kill the most capable and strongest examples of predatorkind even when said predators completely abandon the honor code for a fair fight and are biologically superior to the hunter predators?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/24 03:03:08
im2randomghgh wrote:Actually, predator characters ARE physically superior
see: Super predators.
These are the predators depicted in the movie Predators. Are you saying that the extreme upper end of the predator species can be cut down by some guy with a sword? And a small group of confused humans who never met before are able to kill the most capable and strongest examples of predatorkind even when said predators completely abandon the honor code for a fair fight and are biologically superior to the hunter predators?
They gave the humans heavy weapons and anti-personnel mines...which were used to kill one predator.
The second one wasn't a warrior, he was a falconer. Falconer =/= swordsman. And he was toying with him, and paid for his arrogance..
The third one took dozens of direct hits from a blade without dying.
So these aren't great examples for you to use. It'd be like using Gaunt's multiple CSM kills as evidence that commissars are all worth multiple SMs
Interesting idea raised by the OP. I've always been more of a fan of the aliens than the predators because they're just such a cool design and one of the few genuinely scary monsters on film. But just because they look similar to genestealers doesn't mean that they are comparable - the worlds in which they both inhibit are so different that it's difficult to say which would do well against eachother's foes.
Considering genestealers can rip terminator armour open, I don't think they'd struggle at all against a predator whereas an alien would most likely just bounce off a marine's power armour. That being said, put a predator at the end of a long corridor with no turnings or place to hide and he'd batter either a genestealer or alien just by shooting it or throwing a spear through it's head - it all comes down to the battlefield they're on and how many of each there are on each side.
2012/01/24 15:39:24
Subject: Genestealer(s) vs. Predator (WARNING: a cross-fictional versus thread)
im2randomghgh wrote:Actually, predator characters ARE physically superior
see: Super predators.
These are the predators depicted in the movie Predators. Are you saying that the extreme upper end of the predator species can be cut down by some guy with a sword? And a small group of confused humans who never met before are able to kill the most capable and strongest examples of predatorkind even when said predators completely abandon the honor code for a fair fight and are biologically superior to the hunter predators?
They gave the humans heavy weapons and anti-personnel mines...which were used to kill one predator.
The second one wasn't a warrior, he was a falconer. Falconer =/= swordsman. And he was toying with him, and paid for his arrogance..
The third one took dozens of direct hits from a blade without dying.
So these aren't great examples for you to use. It'd be like using Gaunt's multiple CSM kills as evidence that commissars are all worth multiple SMs
The super predators were cheating like crazy in the movie Predators. The humans are only armed with their common use weaponry - two of which are a prison shiv and a pocket knife - most are just thugs without military training. A modern military squad is much better equipped as are IG. Tracking beast were used to flush them out and exhaust their ammo, traps were used, the humans were acting against each other, and they were forced to exhaust themselves in an alien environment. The leader super predator was fighting fully armed against a human with just a close combat weapon - firing at him despite his complete lack of ballistic weapons. The human was oddly using the weapon as a club (likely for an extended fight scene), only using its bladed side for a finishing move which caused a clean decapitation.
If I gave a hundred examples of predators being bested by humans and other situations that show their limitations and scope of abilities would you go through each example explaining how it doesn’t count? At what point does the evidence become overwhelming? The humans repeatedly get the jump on these super predators despite their situation - an IG squad would have been much more capable at dealing with the entire encounter.
A man with a sword killed a super predator that specialized itself for close combat - how well can a inferior hunter predator fight against a WS 6 Initiative 6 genestealer? And what evidence do you have the predator wasn’t fighting to its full capability; was it changing its iphone’s settings mid-duel, is there a deleted scene were it is chugging hard liquor? The humans also out maneuver and take the predators in ambush style attacks - one human even manages to hid from them for years. Genestealers are masters at such attacks being able to perform them against space marines; they posses well above human ability at infiltration and concealment; they are not going to run down a hall allowing the predators to plug fire into them - they may sacrifice themselves to achieve victory, but not the same way as xenomorphs charge sentry guns.
im2randomghgh wrote:these aren't great examples for you to use. It'd be like using Gaunt's multiple CSM kills as evidence that commissars are all worth multiple SMs
It's hard to get through to him
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Try to make your points more coherent like B1soul is please, all you are doing is simply trying to make the genestealer seem amazing without evidence to support your claim.
Asking him to be coherent is asking a lot
Here, let me argue like Grunt13:
A tribal human can kill a Lictor...
Spoiler:
Therefore, an alpha Predator would destroy a Genestealer...
Grunt13 wrote:This displays the physical threshold of predator biology and equipment - whether the predators depicted are the all time most skilled predators in the universe or some random average joe hunter (who already make up the upper top level of their species) is irrelevant
There are many depictions throughout the media. You're cherry-picking the weak showings. Smiley, the predator specified in the OP, would be a very strong showing.
In different Black Library novels, the power-levels of Orks, SM, Tyranids, Eldar etc. also vary
same biology and weaponry are being measured.
Again you're wrong, physical feats vary by source. The AvP EU has the strongest predators. The only wrinkle is Machiko Noguchi, a Batman-like character who does many things "a regular human" shouldn't be able to do.
Numerous similar examples exist throughout multiple published story lines - images that provide a chartable example of their capabilities
Do you ever look at the evidence posted by other people? Or do you just ignore arguments and evidence that expose how silly your assumptions are?
Speed/Agility
Spoiler:
Agility: 1 Evading bullets: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Dodging missiles from a helicopter: 1, 2, 3 Dodging a bazooka shot: 1, 2, 3 Keeping up with speeding car: 1, 2 Reflexes: The predator came out of the spaceship again, in full armour. Gustat had a clear shot, and the ArmaLite AR-50 wasn't a joke. He would probably make a dent in the Predator's armour, maybe even several dents. Possibly kill him, although the creatures reflexes were so freakishly fast that Gustat doubted it, not without a chance at a headshot sans helmet.
- South China Sea
Coming from a different angle, the bullet entered the Predator's body. This third bullet lodged deep inside, coming to rest only after it had cut through several vital organs.
. . .
"The demon isn't dead yet," said Sukhon.
"The 'demon' will be dead if it doesn't get some expert medical attention. I put a bullet with an exploding tip right through its back. No exit wound."
. . .
Still, the Predator's condition did not yet warrant self-destruct. He had been hurt worse and emerged victorious. Once on a planet half a galaxy away, a venomous metal worm twice his size had shot up through the earth and pinned him through the chest armour. The Predator had chopped the head off, cut off the tail, and gone on to fight for another four hours with the rest of the worm inside his chest, before withdrawing to repair the damage.
The wheeze as its breathing grew worse indicated deep-tissue damage, but nothing irreversible. Medical care on board its ship would allow it to recover.
- South China Sea
A lot of those feats are inconsistent with low showings.
Pictures below show numerous examples of predator limitation in both biology, armor, and weaponry.
Why do you keep posting irrelevant pictures of random predators. HAVE YOU READ THE OP? "Smiley" is an elite predator in the AvP EU.
Would you cite incidents involving ordinary marines to prove that a company captain would lose?
In the first pic, the predator is taking a shot from a rifle designed to kill an elephant with one shot. It's pretty amazing how he's not flying back.
Why did you crop out the top half of the second picture?
...y'know, the part showing that the predator was chest-deep in sludge
Please don't try to doctor evidence
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/02/04 05:14:10
Well I can't speak for Smiley the Original predator posted, but few of us can when it comes to this due to having to intensely understand the universe of the Predator. Since they are a tribal culture they will prove to vary in skill greatly from one another down to even psychical fitness just like people but I imagine to a very high degree. My problem with species as a whole is this though, they may possess advanced weaponry such as the plasma caster, the razor net, the returning disk, and various other tools to help them they lack 2 key qualities needed to take on the powerful Genestealer on his terms. Hopelessly fast and aggressive these genestealers would bring the fight to Smiley with force and anger unimaginable which is in the basic way of all nids. This is the Genestealers profile, I am going to use it as a reference because everything in 40k is more or less subject to bias input and this gives us a fair look at genestealers in which we could comment on their number, and tactics and advantages here.
Genestealer Brood
----------------WSBS S T W I A LdSv Genestealer 6 0 4 4 1 6 2 10 5+
Broodlord 7 0 5 5 3 7 4 10 4+
Unit Composition: 5-20 Genestealers
Unit Type: Infantry
War Gear: Rending claws; Reinforced chitin (Genestealer only); Hardened carapace (Broodlord only)
Pyschic Powers: Aura of Despair; Hynotic Gaze
Transport: The brood may take a Mycetic Spore.
So we see here Genestealers never are alone, which makes sense with the basic parts of their fluff due to the fact they are acting as a family and infiltrating a world by using the genestealer's Kiss which infests the DNA of ANYTHING and gives more less mind control abilities to the genestealers as they use their victims as protectors and with each generation that is force to mate with one another comes closer and closer to a perfected nest which have perfectly adapted to the world, learned its ways and are ready to guide the hivefleet in. To analyze that mind control this is making so the genestealer cults are MORE OR LESS now the playthings of the Hivemind not given the same independence from it like true genestealers are. This would prove a powerful trap against predators especially if in the circumstance a few preds are "corrupted" due to the fact that now preds must face pred and stealers. Ideally i understand this isn't the circumstance but it is an intense advantage none-the less and worth mentioning. lets move on to basic stats.
Weapon Skill 6: Given that luck plays into both party's examples above that the cornered mouse (in this case a man or woman) is confront by the cat (predator) it attacks in desperation displaying one of our strongest instinct as humans... to live which i could see throwing off even a veteran predator in our sudden change in brain chemistry or tactics many example i see of predators getting more or less "jumped" is probably just that human doing something incredibly unexpected like suddenly pulling a knife from the floor he was throw ontop of and hacking an arm off in rage. It's inconclusive to say who is the better fighter here in WS alone, I want to imagine as many hunts as predators have been on and the fact a guardsmen who is given mild combat training counts as 3 that Predator would be hard pressed to set himself at 6 as even masters of close combat like the Eldar just barely match these demons. I would say most predators love to fight with their close combat weapons but do rely on their tools first and foremost that we see as WS for preds of about 4-5 for your average pred. Maybe... MAYBE a 6 with Smiley if he is suppose to be this badass but that would mean a Broodlord should still be giving him a great fight with WS 7. With the yakuza scene vs the pred scene in PREDATORS i already knew the outcome and i blame horrible writing for this or only one possible outcome, the Yakuza had resigned himself to death but wanted to take the creature down with him, predators aren't use to a creature that would throw itself on his blade and suddenly thrust his in. Either way it was a honor circlejerk fight scene and SHOULDN'T be taken as Cannon, and remember i am for saying the nids win in this!
I won't bother mentioning BS for obvious reasons
Strength A genestealer sports strength 4 while it's broodlord sports 5 this is well beyond human ranges on both. To match a genestealer in strength it sounds like the old analogy of bugs lifting 10 times their own weight is about right. We are looking at powerful physics and exoskeletons combined with internal endoskeletons all supported by hyper advanced genetic engineering. Best I could say with all these flowery words though is that it should match the predator in strength as Predator has never seemed to be lacking in strength to me, bad examples aside it's the basic idea around Predator, something bigger, stronger, faster, and more advanced tracking you like an animal. I would say the genestealer has a slight upper hand perhaps over the pred in terms of strength but not enough to be dramatic (genestealer pounce the pred throws it off before it can get a good hand hold and dig in). I think both are strong enough to hurt one another and that more or less means a wash here. Again, brood lord is much different here... equivalent of pred-alien in AVP2 ... despite is sucking.
Toughness A testament to genestealer resilency is not always in the armor save is sometimes is interrupted in toughness as well I think this is done both ways, hard almost beetle-like due to the exoskeleton and internal skeleton to boot makes this thing have very few vitals that stop it so normally it's overwhelming force required to stop it's frame (ie. high strength and decent armor punching for 40k terms so something stronger than a .50 cal in modern days!) I would say the preds hard tools are of incredible use here i imagine a similarity to the Howling Banshees as I have played the of AVP 2 and mention of the preds tools as they were so sharp the edges are supposedly not even complete atoms! This gives me the idea they are power weapons or damnably close to them. I imagine his tools will be useful but I cannot imagine a pred is often hunting prey which is so resilient as even the preds can take a claw to the face and suddenly keel over and die. I'd imagine this is an advantage that I just don't think Predator has over his enemy.
Wounds Given the robust abilities of the genestealer is looks obvious they should have only 1 wound but the predator i am thinking might actually deserve an additional wound his kind have proved to take time and time again severe damage and not cower from it or even acknowledge it sometimes. Proving he has means to mend his damage (with time but i imagine it has faster ways if it anticipated a dangerous hunt) Infact the only time I've seen a predator even emulate pain was in the orginal movie when it treats it's wounds it howls out in such a loud voice it can only be perceived that way. I'd wager to say it takes a lot to take the pred down for good and thus want to actually give Preds an advantage here though it might really be moot due to the furious nature of a genestealer.
Initiative A very powerful advantage of the Genestealer is now brought to light only a handful of things in the ENTIRE 40k universe can hope to keep up with the speed of a a Genestealer let alone their Brood Masters. In Rogue Trader the listed Genestealers are given Unnatural Agility X2 and Unnatural Speed x2 as well as Dark Sight, multiple arms, and lightning attacks as only a few stated benefits this all translates into something many times faster than men in all ways from rushing a position, dodging weapons, testing for skills such as climbing or becoming nearly a blur in close combat. The average speed of a human is 3 meters in RT for a half action, most humans full sprint can only 6 times that speed in flat running so 18 meters in a few seconds. A genestealers base move is 12 and full move is 72 this means you could give the human 30 seconds head start (amply time when you think about it getting to many attacks in close combat to kill even a tough victim and start the chase) and still catch up to that person in moments! Now I am not discrediting a predators speed here either as i know they run fast and jump very far, but in RT a space marine scout time is able to flat of speeds of varying degrees based off of it's pilot's comfort zone. Traditional a bike moves 18 m, rather than a times multiplier like on foot it's a piloting test to move faster. Normally i can see about 5-15 more meters depending on skill. In 40k genestealers have a move, fleet and assualt movement making them as fast if not faster than bikes keep in mind the speed of the pred keeping up with a car is having a few advantages compare to a genestealer rushing a biker and killing him. The car was in a city, this means stop lights, other cars, speed decreases to turn properly ect as opposed to a flat rush. Ultimately i know preds wanna say they are faster but you won't be able to sway me, or others on this the Nids beat the Pred on this for reactions and flat speed (i won't even bringing climbing or jumping into this which the genestealer is amazing at as well) And yet again the Broodlord makes this a even uglier comparison! I would rank preds on par somewhere between a Space Marine 4 and an Eldar 5
Attacks: Genestealers start with 2 here but get 3 when aggressive and start charging, i could have swore these creatures had more attacks when looking but according to this GW info i yanked off the main website page I am seeing a bit more eve ground here. Even though the Predator would HAVE to be on the defense due to the intense speed of a Genestealer if he survived he would probably return the favor and with luck take down his target. If IRC the genestealers should have access to scything talons which allow for alot more accuracy as well as have the powerful rending claws which can tear open even impressive power armor and terminator armor. These things more or less can shape the almost any material around them if they need be which doesn't prove well for Predator if he is caught. Predator i am a bit unsure of I am recalling all the lore i know and remembering movies and fluff but they never came off to me as a flurry of strikes or speed they did come off to me as well placed and painful hits. That being said i know of the Combi stick and I agree that it should either give more attacks to the pred or allow him to have better strength... I am leaning on 2 CCW that act as power weapon or rending like his prey. I'd say a predator gets 1 natural attack which is all a good hunter needs, but maybe willing to do 2 since they do cherish the hunt. In best case scenarios I imagine the 3 from genestealer could be match by the 3 from the pred if he survives his encounter. Again, i bring to the pred's attention if a Broodlord arrives it gets much uglier!
Leadership: This is moot, in comparison, I've never seen a predator hide or cower in the face of any terror the Aliens have brought meaning it must be very resistant to fear i would rate a predator and space marine nearly identical in means of leadership because I have need seen them show fear they only back out of combat when it's smart to (i.e. a minigun + 5 other dudes firing full autos in your basic direction lol) Genestealers are incredibly unlikely to be impacted by horror either and i can't imagine the predator's scare tactics would be of much use here and given he tries to learn of his prey I'd assume he or she would realize it'd be moot.
Armor saves: Time for a bit of fluff according to the old aliens movies and people said an Alien was more or less immune to small arms fire such as rifiles and pistols normally higher caliber military weaponry was need to so much as hurt them. We see this in Aliens as they are using some of the best weaponry imaginable to make sure the colony is secured which was perhaps the only saving grace for these marines meeting a new alien threat helping them live as long as they did. I imagine the armor of a typical genestealer is approximately the same as an aliens due to the fact orks at maturity before growing from battle have skin as tough as concrete which actually repels very small arms fire but isn't quite where "Alien" was. Since orks have a 6+ save it only stands to reason that a 5+ is about right for them to emulate their buggy brothers. However i know alot of people who like to mutate their genestealers for the hardened carapace making them tougher than the Alien IMO in terms of armor. It honestly to me isn't much help in this situation due to the fact that i Imagine the Plasma Caster being stronger than or made to be approximately strong enough to hurt the genestealers but probably not explosive detonations like we saw in AVP2 i think their shells might absorb a good portion of the damage unless that thing really is a plasma pistol then at that point is has proved moot to harden their shells. BUT, the predator is fighting on weaker ground here not much as he isn't threatened until Close combat but still a bad position in 40k in general he doesn't have comparable armor. I am hard pressed to believe that in all the technological advances of Pred Tech that they don't have a method to help protect themselves from damage like a suit of armor... this hasn't ever been revealed to me or maybe it has and I missed it but i think the pred to realize this prey has more bite than his alien trophies of the past and might need to protect himself better. REGARDLESS we are going on what we see and this pred prefers to be macho and manly by having the mesh over himself and just a small amount of armor. This ultimately seems uncompromising in the intense fight a genestealer would bring to his door step should it reach him.
Range Fighting: The Preds best defense for victory, plasma caster supports him in perfect terrain while throwing tools ect to help him cut down the genestealer/s in fore they rush onto him. I would say with the presence of lock on tech due to bio signature this means the pred should have a minimum of 4 BS perhaps even 5 with the assistance of the electronics. This makes the pred powerful in this style of combat and the genestealers like in true combat just do not have any means to force the enemy to respect them from a distance.
Close combat: Assuming it's ONLY ONE i would say it could be a decent fight but I am throwing it 65% in the genestealer's favor. A tense fight where the pred better hope for some good luck and trusty timing to parry the attacks and attack at the same time not too challenging till he sees that the multi-arms could grab his weapon, attempt to destroy it and attack him all at the same time. What little armor either side has will be a blood letting for the other, the genestealer may as well be able to ignore the abilities of the pred's armor and he should have little problems cracking the armor unless we treated that combi-weapon like a rending tool (which seems most balanced) then it factors into luck again all due to the fact his abilities to survive are based off if the enemy misses or failed to wound him enough that he could retaliate.
advantages not pursued here are pyschic powers of the nids, vs possible tools of the pred like defensive grenades or possible specialist tech used to help the pred hide from even a genestealer or a possible FNP for the pred with his medikit. Also i feel his self destruct ability has to factor in somehow but not in honorable combat but I think like in AVP even Smiley would adopt the stance the IOM did, which it survive however you can! Ultimately it is funny to think that the predator is prey to the Genestealer and he must for once act as his prey to face the genestealer hive effectively "attack , hide/retreat, repeat"
These are my opinions on the matter using a system of intention behind idea plus rules from my 40k books, i would have tried to compare preds if we had an rpg book about them.
Editted for typos, I am pretty tired today so please forgive me I see more in here but don't wanna fix it all
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2012/01/24 20:51:57
" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog
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2012/01/26 02:45:39
Subject: Re:Genestealer(s) vs. Predator (WARNING: a cross-fictional versus thread)
There are rules for predators in the 40K setting. CJ journal published rules for them in Necromunda. They were republished in Gang War Magazine issue 2. So both predators and genestealers have rules in Necromunda allowing for direct comparison between the two.
Not really sure how much I can get into the actually rules but think malcadon spyrer with a stealth field and other perks, many that the spryer is able to achieve through purchases. There are special mission rules involving how it moves around picking off loose gangers and disappearing with them. The rules for the predator strongly echo everything I been stating about them. Their combat attack damage is the same as a blow stuck from a starting ganger’s chainsword and their characteristics are within human level.
To give a sense of value: Predator is priced at 150 points. An unequipped gang leader is 120. An eldar scout is 250. A starting ganger with just a knife and lasgun is 65. And a genestealer is 280 points.
Playing out a necromunda game between the predator and genestealer with the rules given to them would be very one sided in the genestealer’s favor. The genestealer’s charge range actually exceeds the maximum range of the predator’s ballistics. Even if we embrace the notion that the solitary predator is just a normal hunter predator and give it the same characteristic increases that separates a ganger from the gang leader, the battle would only be marginally effected. A decently equipped gang leader with a few battles under his belt would be favored to take out the predator in hand to hand; a ganger trained and outfitted for combat would have a decent shot, two such human warriors at once swings the outcome to the gangers’ favor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/26 02:48:52
Grunt13 wrote:There are rules for predators in the 40K setting. CJ journal published rules for them in Necromunda. They were republished in Gang War Magazine issue 2. So both predators and genestealers have rules in Necromunda allowing for direct comparison between the two.
Not really sure how much I can get into the actually rules but think malcadon spyrer with a stealth field and other perks, many that the spryer is able to achieve through purchases. There are special mission rules involving how it moves around picking off loose gangers and disappearing with them. The rules for the predator strongly echo everything I been stating about them. Their combat attack damage is the same as a blow stuck from a starting ganger’s chainsword and their characteristics are within human level.
To give a sense of value:
Predator is priced at 150 points.
An unequipped gang leader is 120.
An eldar scout is 250.
A starting ganger with just a knife and lasgun is 65.
And a genestealer is 280 points.
Playing out a necromunda game between the predator and genestealer with the rules given to them would be very one sided in the genestealer’s favor. The genestealer’s charge range actually exceeds the maximum range of the predator’s ballistics. Even if we embrace the notion that the solitary predator is just a normal hunter predator and give it the same characteristic increases that separates a ganger from the gang leader, the battle would only be marginally effected. A decently equipped gang leader with a few battles under his belt would be favored to take out the predator in hand to hand; a ganger trained and outfitted for combat would have a decent shot, two such human warriors at once swings the outcome to the gangers’ favor.
Holy crap that is some good info! I never knew that!
" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog
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2012/01/26 13:30:28
Subject: Genestealer(s) vs. Predator (WARNING: a cross-fictional versus thread)
Grunt13 wrote:. Playing out a necromunda game between the predator and genestealer with the rules given to them would be very one sided in the genestealer’s favor. The genestealer’s charge range actually exceeds the maximum range of the predator’s ballistics. Even if we embrace the notion that the solitary predator is just a normal hunter predator and give it the same characteristic increases that separates a ganger from the gang leader, the battle would only be marginally effected. A decently equipped gang leader with a few battles under his belt would be favored to take out the predator in hand to hand; a ganger trained and outfitted for combat would have a decent shot, two such human warriors at once swings the outcome to the gangers’ favor.
Are you actually trying to use Necromunda rules as evidence in this debate? I'm sorry but that's incredibly silly even for you
Those rules are essentially unlicensed fanfiction. Anyone could make up rules and stats.
Those rules would only have value as evidence if Necromunda were licensed by 20th Century Fox. Otherwise, they're totally non-canon just like rules I could pull out of my arse right now.
I've written my own predator vs. space marine fanfiction. I might as well use that as evidence for my arguments.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Well I can't speak for Smiley the Original predator posted, but few of us can when it comes to this due to having to intensely understand the universe of the Predator. Since they are a tribal culture they will prove to vary in skill greatly from one another down to even psychical fitness just like people but I imagine to a very high degree. My problem with species as a whole is this though, they may possess advanced weaponry such as the plasma caster, the razor net, the returning disk, and various other tools to help them they lack 2 key qualities needed to take on the powerful Genestealer on his terms. Hopelessly fast and aggressive these genestealers would bring the fight to Smiley with force and anger unimaginable which is in the basic way of all nids. This is the Genestealers profile, I am going to use it as a reference because everything in 40k is more or less subject to bias input and this gives us a fair look at genestealers in which we could comment on their number, and tactics and advantages here.
At least you're trying to be fair. I'd like to post a point-by-point response when I'm less busy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/01/27 04:46:58
A genestealer would MAYBE be equivalent to a drone. A Broodlord's strength would be the equal of a predator, and a hive queen would match a broodlord in terms of size and everything.
Either way, The closest you could come to representing a predator in the game would probably be a captain with lightning claws, a plasma gun, and a throwing attack like Arjac.
im2randomghgh wrote:A genestealer would MAYBE be equivalent to a drone. A Broodlord's strength would be the equal of a predator, and a hive queen would match a broodlord in terms of size and everything.
Either way, The closest you could come to representing a predator in the game would probably be a captain with lightning claws, a plasma gun, and a throwing attack like Arjac.
5 strength? I have never seen predator krush a man's ribcage in in one hand like an ogryn could, infact the closest i've seen is them rip out a spine... with tools Dark eldar do that..., he was stronger than Arnold in Predator, but so would every ork in 40k, You are telling me you think he could be stronger than 8 foot tall super soliders in power armor which is used to shunt disabled vehicles out of the way? Sorry i don't see it... Maybe AS strong as a 4 but never 5. Broodlords are basically queens in strength. I'm sorry 5 strength is really only reserved for stupidly powerful things. and Sadly Orks is da biggest and da strongest, preds do come off this strong to me.
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2012/01/28 02:37:09
Subject: Re:Genestealer(s) vs. Predator (WARNING: a cross-fictional versus thread)
im2randomghgh wrote:A genestealer would MAYBE be equivalent to a drone. A Broodlord's strength would be the equal of a predator, and a hive queen would match a broodlord in terms of size and everything.
Either way, The closest you could come to representing a predator in the game would probably be a captain with lightning claws, a plasma gun, and a throwing attack like Arjac.
5 strength? I have never seen predator krush a man's ribcage in in one hand like an ogryn could, infact the closest i've seen is them rip out a spine... with tools Dark eldar do that..., he was stronger than Arnold in Predator, but so would every ork in 40k, You are telling me you think he could be stronger than 8 foot tall super soliders in power armor which is used to shunt disabled vehicles out of the way? Sorry i don't see it... Maybe AS strong as a 4 but never 5. Broodlords are basically queens in strength. I'm sorry 5 strength is really only reserved for stupidly powerful things. and Sadly Orks is da biggest and da strongest, preds do come off this strong to me.
Straken is a 6.
Which, oddly, makes him stronger than a daemon prince!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/28 02:37:30
DeadlySquirrel wrote:A Pred is easily S5. Easily. A queen is the equivalent to a Hive Tyrant.
Hive guard are 20feet tall... Tyrants 35-40... how do you figure? if it can eat an tank it's better than a queen. perhaps the strongest of the heavy predators i could see... PERHAPS but no i see them closer to marine strength which is overwhleming stronger than Arnold.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/28 03:09:30
" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog
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2012/01/28 03:10:47
Subject: Genestealer(s) vs. Predator (WARNING: a cross-fictional versus thread)
DeadlySquirrel wrote:A Pred is easily S5. Easily. A queen is the equivalent to a Hive Tyrant.
Hive guard are 20feet tall... Tyrants 35-40... how do you figure? if it can eat an tank it's better than a queen. perhaps the strongest of the heavy predators i could see... PERHAPS but no i see them closer to marine strength which is overwhleming stronger than Arnold.
Arnie beat the Pred unarmed. Granted he used traps etc, but mano-e-mano he held his own against it.
kestril wrote:The game is only as fun as the people I play it with.
"War is as natural to a man as maternity is to a woman."
2012/01/28 03:29:17
Subject: Genestealer(s) vs. Predator (WARNING: a cross-fictional versus thread)
DeadlySquirrel wrote:A Pred is easily S5. Easily. A queen is the equivalent to a Hive Tyrant.
Hive guard are 20feet tall... Tyrants 35-40... how do you figure? if it can eat an tank it's better than a queen. perhaps the strongest of the heavy predators i could see... PERHAPS but no i see them closer to marine strength which is overwhleming stronger than Arnold.
Arnie beat the Pred unarmed. Granted he used traps etc, but mano-e-mano he held his own against it.
Mk, So Arnie is basically what? 6'2- 6'5 man worked out most of his life and in the story fought in a few skirmishes and wars right? Sounds like the ideal Guardsmen to me, ya know comparing him to the like veterans who go 30-45 years in constant battle getting cybernetics and the like all for the sake of combat. All this and they are still only a strength 3, it's because human limitations muscle-mass ect. So if Arnold held his own against a basic predator even though it was testing him really he was able to survive the brute force of a pred. This means it's not bone the incredible awesome power of strength 5 which is snapping trees in half, and rending armor off even decently armored vehicles and bulkheads (not lifting.... REMOVING). To me, it's too much it's stupidly outside the idea of Predator but I am willing to say their most big badass hunters who have been tracking and hunting for years... perhaps... PERHAPS could be that strong. In reference to the person who sad a man wielding a hyper advanced piece of tech which included a power field and enormous strength so much so when you punch you make small explosions... well duh.
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