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Space Wolves are another example, and they value any loyalist soldier who shows valor in battle.

Melissia wrote:Space Wolves are another example, and they value any loyalist soldier who shows valor in battle.

Yep.
The first Armageddon War's a neat example of that; Logan Grimnar was furious when he heard what the Inquisition had done to the
Steel Legion troopers that had fought alongside the Wolves there.

Their more humble approach to humanity (regardless of their boastful nature) is one of the reasons I like them despite their occasional mary sue stories.

No, never.

...Probably being sarcastic. Yeah, that's what's going on.

Remember Imperial guard are the first and last line of defence for all humanity.

Technically, the very first line of defense is the PDF and/or the clergy of the Adeptus Ministorum who rally the locals to form an ad-hoc militia. Don't underestimate your local Preachers and Confessors!

Apart from a few fortress worlds which have a permanent IG garrison, Guard regiments get raised for two purposes only: to defend another Imperial world in distress, or to mount an offensive against the enemies of Man. Imperial worlds are largely left to care for themselves, and as long as they pay their tithe and follow the Creed, the Imperium won't even interfere with their politics. This kind of independence also comes with the responsibility of the appointed governor to keep his realm ready and able to defend itself to the best of his capabilities. The Imperial Guard will help out during a time of crisis ... but needless to say, it can take weeks or even months until reinforcements arrive.

(the above interpretation takes into account studio fluff only)

tauxnimrod wrote:It's something that I have always wondered do the IG and SM fight along side each other in battle on a regular basis?

Why wouldn't they help each other if they can?

To Guard Marines are symbol of Emperor's might, their mere presence raise moral and brings hope to Guardsman.
In every campaign I read so far Marines always helped the Guard in some way. they rarely refuse to help.

Lynata wrote:Technically, the very first line of defense is the PDF and/or the clergy of the Adeptus Ministorum who rally the locals to form an ad-hoc militia. Don't underestimate your local Preachers and Confessors!

Apart from a few fortress worlds which have a permanent IG garrison, Guard regiments get raised for two purposes only: to defend another Imperial world in distress, or to mount an offensive against the enemies of Man. Imperial worlds are largely left to care for themselves, and as long as they pay their tithe and follow the Creed, the Imperium won't even interfere with their politics. This kind of independence also comes with the responsibility of the appointed governor to keep his realm ready and able to defend itself to the best of his capabilities. The Imperial Guard will help out during a time of crisis ... but needless to say, it can take weeks or even months until reinforcements arrive.

(the above interpretation takes into account studio fluff only)

That's pretty much how Guard is depicted in licensed fluff too.

Melissia wrote:That's pretty much how Guard is depicted in licensed fluff too.

Aye, I don't recall any deviating book right now, either - but I wanted to point it out before someone mentions some title I've never read.

One thing I learned is that with such small details, there's at least one novel or other licensed product that tells a different interpretation.

Admittedly, I mix pdf and guard sometime in terminology because PDF can easily become guard (and the guard is formed from the best of the PDF normally anyway) and guard can become pdf (after settling a conquered planet for example).

Spetulhu wrote:While some chapters do look down on "normal" humans, others actually respect guardsmen for going out there to fight the same foes with none of the advantages of a marine. Bravery and courage are the coin that buy you respect, and success is certainly a good thing too. Any chapter known for some particular trait could also possibly be impressed if a normal man shows that same trait - Imperial Fists might look with some favor on disciplined soldiers that refuse to give ground, for example.

Correct. Most Chapters prefer to reserve judgment until after the fighting stops. Some Chapters look down on normal Humans, but those same Chapters are held in disdain by their fellow Chapters for doing so, especially by the Salamanders and their descendants.

In the siege of vraks the Dark Angels helped by taking out the space port cutting off chaos reinforcements. The were not deployed with the guard however since trench warfare with masses of artillary would result in too many losses.

In the amphelion project Red Scorpions are deployed with the imperial guard as shock troops with the cadians and elysians. Theres more to this but it would be a slight spoiler

I think marines are also deployed in the tallarn book. Generally I think marines are used to break stalemates, storm important positions or to fight whenever chaos marines get involved.
In ordinary conflicts where its guard vs orks, rebels and the "easy" xenos there is no real need for a marine deployment.

Tadashi wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:While some chapters do look down on "normal" humans, others actually respect guardsmen for going out there to fight the same foes with none of the advantages of a marine. Bravery and courage are the coin that buy you respect, and success is certainly a good thing too. Any chapter known for some particular trait could also possibly be impressed if a normal man shows that same trait - Imperial Fists might look with some favor on disciplined soldiers that refuse to give ground, for example.

Correct. Most Chapters prefer to reserve judgment until after the fighting stops. Some Chapters look down on normal Humans, but those same Chapters are held in disdain by their fellow Chapters for doing so, especially by the Salamanders and their descendants.

Just a quick question Tash, why do Salamanders care so much for the Average human?

Alexzandvar wrote:Just a quick question Tash, why do Salamanders care so much for the Average human?

Because GW thought it'd make a neat defining trait.

On a more serious note: I would think that a Chapter's stance on humanity is a product of its Primarch's personality/teachings, its Chapter rites, and the worlds they are recruiting from. For example, cannibalism was mentioned to be "popular" with the Astartes because that's just how the local feral tribes did it, too. For the Salamanders, I vaguely recall something about a tradition of their Marines to "adopt" a human family, for whom they assume a role of protector, much like the intended relationship between the Space Marines and mankind as a whole. No idea what kind of source this originated in, though, but it's an interesting idea that would certainly influence a Chapter's perception of their fellow humans.

Lynata wrote:

Alexzandvar wrote:Just a quick question Tash, why do Salamanders care so much for the Average human?

Because GW thought it'd make a neat defining trait.

On a more serious note: I would think that a Chapter's stance on humanity is a product of its Primarch's personality/teachings, its Chapter rites, and the worlds they are recruiting from. For example, cannibalism was mentioned to be "popular" with the Astartes because that's just how the local feral tribes did it, too. For the Salamanders, I vaguely recall something about a tradition of their Marines to "adopt" a human family, for whom they assume a role of protector, much like the intended relationship between the Space Marines and mankind as a whole. No idea what kind of source this originated in, though, but it's an interesting idea that would certainly influence a Chapter's perception of their fellow humans.

Woah, adopting a human family? Sounds pretty interesting, far more interesting that the usual "GAWD MEN OF THE ASTARTES, CARE FOR NOTHING KILL EVERYTHING"

I love it when there is some tenderness and happiness in the constant Grimdark Toilet were there is only Diarrhea.

Only Reasonable Marines would be reasonable enough to cooperate with the IG...

Interaction between Marines and civilians

The Salamanders novels do explore this theme in some depth - with many of the chapter spending considerable time and effort amongst the population be it as protectors or artisans. To me it seems that the Chapter does not seek to remove the memories of their life as humans and encourages them to understand and appreciate that which they are sworn to protect - again a start contrast to their brethren. This does however seem to mean that some of the tensions and prejudices of their home sanctuary cities can remain. Some other Chapters certainly see their dedication to protecting "mere" humans as a weakness. This is demonstrated nicely in the Helsreach novel when the Black Templars and Salamanders clashed over defending refuges versus pursuing the enemy. Interestingly to me they are harsh with their aspirants who, at least in the novel, must become a Marine or die - no joining the ranks of the Chapter serfs as happens in some Chapters. They also practise a form of the Long Walk from Judge Dread - where a Marine who is disgraced or can not perform his duties may go down onto their Death World home to bring justice and protect the nomadic population.

Many Astartes respect those who fight well - despite any perceived disadvantages but will certainly not tolerate disrespect, apparent cowardice or incompetence. Again in Helsreach - the central BT character was disdainful of everyone in his arrival at the Hive - with the sole exception of a fighter squadron who had been previously commended by his own Chapter when fighting alongside them - no one else had thus far proved themselves worthy. Otherwise only the Adeptus Mechanicus received any real respect and that was only the Princeps of the Titans

On the OP - the Guard and Astartes can indeed be found fighting together - especially in large campaigns - although the Marines will normally undertake short strikes or similar rather than the grind. The presence of even one Astartes can of course have a inspirational powerful effect on Morale - unless of course they die too easily or they are more extreme Chapters like the Flesh Tearers.

I liked Helsreach with its ties between the Black Templars and the mortals they interact with. Either that or Bill King's space Wolves (I can't really find myself liking any other interpretation. I've been trying to read Battle of the Fang and it just seems.. 'off' to me.)

I will leave you with this topical but slightly corny video:

Alexzandvar wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Alexzandvar wrote:Just a quick question Tash, why do Salamanders care so much for the Average human?

Because GW thought it'd make a neat defining trait.

On a more serious note: I would think that a Chapter's stance on humanity is a product of its Primarch's personality/teachings, its Chapter rites, and the worlds they are recruiting from. For example, cannibalism was mentioned to be "popular" with the Astartes because that's just how the local feral tribes did it, too. For the Salamanders, I vaguely recall something about a tradition of their Marines to "adopt" a human family, for whom they assume a role of protector, much like the intended relationship between the Space Marines and mankind as a whole. No idea what kind of source this originated in, though, but it's an interesting idea that would certainly influence a Chapter's perception of their fellow humans.

Woah, adopting a human family? Sounds pretty interesting, far more interesting that the usual "GAWD MEN OF THE ASTARTES, CARE FOR NOTHING KILL EVERYTHING"

I love it when there is some tenderness and happiness in the constant Grimdark Toilet were there is only Diarrhea.

Also, Vulkan defended the planet, Nocturne from a raid of dark Eldar, before he was discovered by the Emperor. Perhaps, this instilled a tradition of being close to regular humans that Vulkan spread to his descendants.

Squidmanlolz wrote:

Alexzandvar wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Alexzandvar wrote:Just a quick question Tash, why do Salamanders care so much for the Average human?

Because GW thought it'd make a neat defining trait.

On a more serious note: I would think that a Chapter's stance on humanity is a product of its Primarch's personality/teachings, its Chapter rites, and the worlds they are recruiting from. For example, cannibalism was mentioned to be "popular" with the Astartes because that's just how the local feral tribes did it, too. For the Salamanders, I vaguely recall something about a tradition of their Marines to "adopt" a human family, for whom they assume a role of protector, much like the intended relationship between the Space Marines and mankind as a whole. No idea what kind of source this originated in, though, but it's an interesting idea that would certainly influence a Chapter's perception of their fellow humans.

Woah, adopting a human family? Sounds pretty interesting, far more interesting that the usual "GAWD MEN OF THE ASTARTES, CARE FOR NOTHING KILL EVERYTHING"

I love it when there is some tenderness and happiness in the constant Grimdark Toilet were there is only Diarrhea.

Also, Vulkan defended the planet, Nocturne from a raid of dark Eldar, before he was discovered by the Emperor. Perhaps, this instilled a tradition of being close to regular humans that Vulkan spread to his descendants.

After reading more about the Salamanders, if I ever do an Space Marine army it will be Salamanders.

^same here, always loved them compared to the rest.

Salamanders, Space wolves, Raptors and The Mentors spring to mind. All of these chapters are well known for fighting alongside the IG in one way or another.

At least from what I've read, the IG was always fighting along with the SMs pre-heresy. I'm not into any of the post heresy books honestly.

Salamanders are famous for it, Space Wolves do it as well. In Hammer of Daemons the Grey Knights are even thrown into the line with the Guard, although they promptly ditched it when it was clear the defense couldn't hold and went off the kill the Chaos Warlord in command of the opposing force.

Ultramarines did so at Tarsis Ultra, and during several other battles during Honsou's campaign against Ultramar.

Iron Hands work side by side with the Mechanicus.

Black Templars did at Helsreach, and I am sure many other chapters had similar experiences in the battles for Armaggedon.

Single marines from the Iron Snakes work closely with whatever local forces are around in the areas they are sent to, and one individual from the chapter worked with 2 Marines from other chapters whose names I forget and Gaunt's Ghosts during the fight for Salvations Reach.

That was just off the top of my head, so yeah I'd say it happens a lot.

I'd say it happens rarely, as every battle, every entrenched eternal war for the IG does not a good book make. Another example, how many books purely on the imperial navy are there? No, the marines are the legends, and books are written on how awesome they are, not about how 2 million IG troops were lost pushing on one city. People like badass, it makes for good reading, but in the reality of the fluff, the IG do the dirty work, and often are unassisted, win or lose. My favorite are the marines that don't mind sacrificing a few thousand IG to kill the one big baddy, only to leave the cleanup to the IG as they move on to their next target. The soul drinkers books were a hoot, letting the IG walk into traps so their men didn't have to, but then they weren't the most loyal of marines.

Munga wrote:I'd say it happens rarely, as every battle, every entrenched eternal war for the IG does not a good book make. Another example, how many books purely on the imperial navy are there? No, the marines are the legends, and books are written on how awesome they are, not about how 2 million IG troops were lost pushing on one city. People like badass, it makes for good reading, but in the reality of the fluff, the IG do the dirty work, and often are unassisted, win or lose. My favorite are the marines that don't mind sacrificing a few thousand IG to kill the one big baddy, only to leave the cleanup to the IG as they move on to their next target. The soul drinkers books were a hoot, letting the IG walk into traps so their men didn't have to, but then they weren't the most loyal of marines.

Soul Drinkers are heretics, making use of daemon weapons and tolerating obvious mutation in their ranks. Not even the Blood Ravens or the Space Wolves would allow that to happen.