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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/01/26 22:19:25
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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ShadarLogoth wrote:wolftime wrote:ShadarLogoth wrote:ZombieJoe wrote:You've all made some pretty reasonable arguments. I feel less uncertain about our vehicles now. But, in really competitive play, like adepticon. I feel that our vehicels are a liability. I would love nothing more than to take 30 immortals with tesla and two stalkers. But, against Decent of angels or any super DS heavy list, the potential to have our tanks smack out right away is too great for me. If you dont get matched up with one of those kinds of lists, then I think they'll do really well.
Do you guys think that its a safe to spend 25% or more of our army points on vehicles that might get ganked turn 1 or 2?
Keep in mind just about every Dex has to deal with this at some point. Some make up for it in redundancy and spamyspam, crons make up for it in resiliency. DSing melta being what it is, just gotta roll with it I guess, but no army is completely immune to it, and it should still take 3 or 4 melta shots, in range, to take down AV 13. Also if it becomes a real problem we do have some nifty tools that can mittigate that a bit (StormTeks, Lord of FIre shard, etc).
dude my list its about saturation, i pack 2 annihilation barges , 1 catacomb barge and 3 ghost arks, im just waiting for the triarch stalker model to use my last heavy support slot. thats 7 av 13 vehicles...
Yeah saturation+ resiliency can be super nasty. Compare that with Venomspam lists with 9ish AV10 OT and 3ish AV 11 OT, I would say 7 AV 13 OT stack up pretty well, not too mention Crons Vehicles have living metal (although the Deldar might have FF or NS).
Also catacomb barges are fast and skimmer, and sweep attacks pop vehicles even harder than scarabs. but yes necros can make "Mechrons" and if ghost arks explodes who cares just roll for reanimation protocols
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/26 22:32:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/01/26 23:11:12
Subject: Re:Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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Uh mate, stalkers aren't Heavy, they're elite. So you could have another Anni and 3 stalkers, for a total of 10 av13
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/01/26 23:12:22
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/01/26 23:22:52
Subject: Re:Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:Uh mate, stalkers aren't Heavy, they're elite. So you could have another Anni and 3 stalkers, for a total of 10 av13
holy shat ! thats true ! only thing is that stalkers are quite expensive so maybe one per list.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/01/26 23:59:17
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Fixture of Dakka
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wuestenfux wrote:
Well, mech Eldar armies usually rely on S6 spam and so cannot penetrate Necron AV (would-be) 13 vehicles. The enemy needs an AV 8 (or higher) shooting weapon for penetration. Not a bad deal when you ask me.
Mechdar also includes at least 15 Fire Dragons.
And if you ( OP) remain wary of the transports, why bother using them at all? They aren't necessary.
Other armies are pigeon-holed into transports because they can't get anywhere without them. Safety is actually the secondary concern to mobility where 5th edition missions of objectives are involved. Transport spam came for the protection (3rd-4th), but stayed for the objectives(5th).
Footcrons can get wherever they feel like without them.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/27 00:01:06
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/01/27 00:15:36
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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DarknessEternal wrote:wuestenfux wrote:
Well, mech Eldar armies usually rely on S6 spam and so cannot penetrate Necron AV (would-be) 13 vehicles. The enemy needs an AV 8 (or higher) shooting weapon for penetration. Not a bad deal when you ask me.
Mechdar also includes at least 15 Fire Dragons.
And if you ( OP) remain wary of the transports, why bother using them at all? They aren't necessary.
Other armies are pigeon-holed into transports because they can't get anywhere without them. Safety is actually the secondary concern to mobility where 5th edition missions of objectives are involved. Transport spam came for the protection (3rd-4th), but stayed for the objectives(5th).
Footcrons can get wherever they feel like without them.
i think even that ghost arks are quite expensive the are the best transport for supporting units holding objectives ...
if OP use transports or not depend the way he wants to play necrons....footslogger, mech, mixed, even CC army
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/01/27 07:52:16
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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junk wrote:Whoah, let's ease up on the trash talking of scythes.
They're supersonic transports, lets not forget how valuable that is. They have a great anti-infantry weapon that's functional from the very edge of night-fighting range. They can deposit their cargo on objectives and participate on a completely different side of the battlefield on the very next turn, benefitting from a cover save and living armor when they do it.
AV 11 all around is still better than that soft backside that rhinos, chimeras, and razorbacks share.
If you use night scythes well, they can last a few rounds, during which time they're always doing something useful, even if it is just drawing fire away from your other threats (read wraiths and scarabs).
I run 2 (badly proxied) night scythes in my list and I'm usually pretty happy to have them; thrilled in fact, if they live to the end-game where they're critical in scoring those Ws.
Adding on to that, most vehicles have Living metal, which allows them the chance to completely ignore stunned and shaken results. They're not that crappy.
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Lord Judicator Valdrakh of the Atun Dynasty (6th Ed: W:3, L:4, D:0)
H.B.M.C. wrote:Well GW were mostly responsible for the Berlin Wall, so it's natural for some people to harbour resentment towards them. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/01/30 15:00:37
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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ZombieJoe wrote:Scathing words my friend...
She's too explody but she's pretty darn good in bed
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/01/30 15:23:02
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Side Question(s):
1. Do you lose Quantum Shielding to a glancing hit? I know it's worded "suffers a penetrating hit" but It's been ruled at my store that any hit that goes to the vehicle damage chart is a "penetrating" hit.
2. How do rapid fire arrays work on the Ark? Like infantry?
If it moves they only get 12" shots?
Observation: Deathmarks are the best red herring EVER!!
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"If you are not naughty you get a cookie. If you are naked, you get a cookie." - Insaniak, Dakka Mod
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/01/30 15:45:38
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Death-Dealing Devastator
Online
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gregor_xenos wrote:Side Question(s):
1. Do you lose Quantum Shielding to a glancing hit? I know it's worded "suffers a penetrating hit" but It's been ruled at my store that any hit that goes to the vehicle damage chart is a "penetrating" hit.
Your LGS is wrong, glancing hits are clearly explained in the brb.
2. How do rapid fire arrays work on the Ark? Like infantry?
If it moves they only get 12" shots?
vehicles firing weapons is also clearly explained in the BRB, in this case, as long as the vehicle can fire a rapid fire weapon, it's always (using bolters for example like on the land raider crusader) once to 24" and/or twice to 12".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/01/30 16:28:57
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Dakka Veteran
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The Triarch Stalker is an elite choice. Take 3 of 'em for 450 points! :-)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/01/30 20:12:49
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
The best State-Texas
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loreweaver wrote:The Triarch Stalker is an elite choice. Take 3 of 'em for 450 points! :-)
3 is a bit much, I think 2 is the sweet spot for them. You've got redundancy, and it muddles Target Priority.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/01/30 20:42:48
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Dakka Veteran
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Biggest thing I'm concerned about with Scythes is how big the physical models will be.
Dark Eldar vehicles are on the smaller skimming bases and can move flat out and get a cover save so if our vehicles are about the size of that i'd be happy.
If they are as big as a storm raven or valkyrie, I probably won't be using them since getting cover will be impossible.
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Total Finecast models purchased: 5
Total models without Finecast issues out of those purchased: 0
... "Finecast" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/01/30 21:07:10
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Dakka Veteran
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I've been trying to calculate the size of the Scythe (say that 3 times fast) based on the art work. I imagine it'll be about 5 warriors across at the widest, and two tesla destructors long.
So big, but not huge. I would expect the kit to come in around $50 CAD +/- $10 (maybe the same price as the ark kit).
So... much like the ark, but not a rectangle, but more of a circle that would fit in a square of the same area as a ghost ark.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/01/30 21:23:02
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Dakka Veteran
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loreweaver wrote:I've been trying to calculate the size of the Scythe (say that 3 times fast) based on the art work. I imagine it'll be about 5 warriors across at the widest, and two tesla destructors long.
So big, but not huge. I would expect the kit to come in around $50 CAD +/- $10 (maybe the same price as the ark kit).
So... much like the ark, but not a rectangle, but more of a circle that would fit in a square of the same area as a ghost ark.
Thats not too bad, I was thinking maybe annihilation barge but about 25%-35% larger.
As long as its kept on the skimmer base like the ghost ark, I'll be happy
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Total Finecast models purchased: 5
Total models without Finecast issues out of those purchased: 0
... "Finecast" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/01/31 18:29:09
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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I'm thinking that the scythe will be on the same base as the Stormraven and the IG flyer.
Oh, and scythe spam is going to be our version of razorspam...
AV13 spam is going to be a fun list to play.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/01 01:27:39
Subject: Re:Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Numberless Necron Warrior
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Necron armor 13 really doesn't get enough credit. It does lose it's av13 on a pen but that's not incredibly easy. Especially if you flood the field with AV13. There's only so much AT to go around after all. I did some math hammer to show some results comparing what you really get for general resilience compared to a rhino.
Some strong things to consider with them is
1) Str7 guns will never take their AV13 away. This makes mass Str7 much less threatening for them.
2) multi-meltas need to be within half distance to get their 2d6. otherwise they only have the ap1 for a bonus. This means a strong player can minimize how helpful melta will be against AV13. without the 2d6 armor peneatrion. using melta only increases the chance of destruction 1.9%
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GENERATION 10: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.
"I want to tailor this list so much that I can wear it to tournaments and win both 'best looking army' and 'best dressed'. "
2500? soon will change
W:15 L:11 D:8 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/01 02:55:44
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Warp-Screaming Noise Marine
Canada!
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I think of a Scythe as something like a much faster Assault Cannon Razorback with a couple ups and downs... Mostly ups!
It makes it feel a little less overcosted.
I'm still sad it doesn't benefit from Targeting Relay... though I'd also be upset if it weren't twin linked itself...
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It's just a show, I should really just relax... It's just a show, I should really just relax... It's just a show, I should really just relax... It's just a show, I should really just relax... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/01 03:35:00
Subject: Re:Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Wicked Canoptek Wraith
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I have play quite a few games with the new vehicles and found them to be quite hardy. I have yet to play against a true melta-spam list, I have faced a DOA list.
AV 13 is more than up to the challenge of surviving some melta fire , and the multi-target fire suppression is just something you cant beat. I find the repair ability slightly useless
as I rarely get out of my vehicles anyway, but the mobility and versatility they supply are very valuable.
As for NightSythes, I find that an army using them has a very different set of abilities. Imotehk is necessary for such list as the AV 11 Vehicles have a short lifespan. Imo provides cover and a much greater chance at 1st turn. The good thing about the scythes is that you can take 3 in 1500 pts, and still have room for 2 doom scythes, this creates a multi-threat, fast moving, high firepower, DSing list. Your opponent will have a hard time taking down 5 AV 11 vehicles with NF in effect, and after suffering enough fire to wreck major vehicles and deal significant damage to hoards.
Next turn, the Nscythes and Dscythes can supersonic away, or simply deploy immortals to take care of survivors.
The triarch stalker is a special case in the Necron Book. The fact that it is slow moving guaranties that the enemy can lay down some AT on it. It therefore doesn't survive well in 1500+ games. It has its niech in lower pt games, where even its S7 can knock heads in CC.
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Ya, I play Crons, what about it?
Also, they are just shiny space zombies with guns.
6700 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/01 03:43:15
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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Your transport is 80 points right?
Don't complain. Devilfish are 80 with only a burst cannon, av12 and the inability to make soldiers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/01 03:44:03
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Ghost arks are 115 points!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/01 03:45:54
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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ZombieJoe wrote:Ghost arks are 115 points!
Then they cost as much as a tooled up devilfish, still a lot better.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/01 03:48:04
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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My issue is not with AV 13, my issue is with open-topped. Our transports really aren't that bad. Ghost arks serve their purpose. Stalkers and doom-scythes = useless the first time they get penned. Atleast for me
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/01 03:55:03
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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ZombieJoe wrote:My issue is not with AV 13, my issue is with open-topped. Our transports really aren't that bad. Ghost arks serve their purpose. Stalkers and doom-scythes = useless the first time they get penned. Atleast for me
open topped its no an issue, trust me i play with 3 ghost ark and 3 annihil barges.
S7 only glance with 6 ....that's -2 on the table +1 to open topped ... thats only -1 ....with 6 get destroyed...
S8 glance with 5 and ONLY pen with 6 !!!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/01 03:57:09
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Numberless Necron Warrior
Beyond the veil of light and dark...
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Imhotek is the answer to all our problems.....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/01 04:23:26
Subject: Re:Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
The best State-Texas
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Config2 wrote:I have play quite a few games with the new vehicles and found them to be quite hardy. I have yet to play against a true melta-spam list, I have faced a DOA list.
AV 13 is more than up to the challenge of surviving some melta fire , and the multi-target fire suppression is just something you cant beat. I find the repair ability slightly useless
as I rarely get out of my vehicles anyway, but the mobility and versatility they supply are very valuable.
As for NightSythes, I find that an army using them has a very different set of abilities. Imotehk is necessary for such list as the AV 11 Vehicles have a short lifespan. Imo provides cover and a much greater chance at 1st turn. The good thing about the scythes is that you can take 3 in 1500 pts, and still have room for 2 doom scythes, this creates a multi-threat, fast moving, high firepower, DSing list. Your opponent will have a hard time taking down 5 AV 11 vehicles with NF in effect, and after suffering enough fire to wreck major vehicles and deal significant damage to hoards.
Next turn, the Nscythes and Dscythes can supersonic away, or simply deploy immortals to take care of survivors.
The triarch stalker is a special case in the Necron Book. The fact that it is slow moving guaranties that the enemy can lay down some AT on it. It therefore doesn't survive well in 1500+ games. It has its niech in lower pt games, where even its S7 can knock heads in CC.
I find the Triarch stalker fits in well, but need to be taken in Pairs, in an AV 13 heavy list.
Really, the Triarch stalker isn't that much slower than the rest of our Army. Things like Ghost Arks can only move 6' if the occupants inside want to fire, Abarges can only move 6' i they want to be able to fire a weapon, and have to stand still if they want to fire both. The Monolith can only ever move 6.
I'd say that the Stalker is pretty standard. The faster things, like Scythes, Are really the exception.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/01 04:43:37
Subject: Re:Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Wicked Canoptek Wraith
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I find the Triarch stalker fits in well, but need to be taken in Pairs, in an AV 13 heavy list.
Really, the Triarch stalker isn't that much slower than the rest of our Army. Things like Ghost Arks can only move 6' if the occupants inside want to fire, Abarges can only move 6' i they want to be able to fire a weapon, and have to stand still if they want to fire both. The Monolith can only ever move 6.
I'd say that the Stalker is pretty standard. The faster things, like Scythes, Are really the exception.
I appreciate what you are saying here, but I am really talking about the first turn of the game. That is one of the most important times of the game to move quickly, and the stalker just doesn't work for me. That is when your arks move 12" and your Scythes move 12-36". True, the monolith is a 6" mover, but most lists that take a monolith are monolith centric, which is natural considering its hefty cost.
The stalker can't quite take the fire a monolith takes either, AV13 v. AV 14 is a big difference, as is the open topped. The usage in pairs works well, but in a specific type of list, and I find that I usually field triplets if anything. The conjunction of monoliths and stalkers is perhaps the most interesting combination. A TL Blast is going to be quite effective on the troops that just had to get out of their transport. (Stalker One destroys transport, Stalker Two lights up the target.)
To conclude, it should be true that the Arks and Scythes should be the exception to the movement speed, but in to today's Mechhammer, some of the most effective builds require those vehicles.
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Ya, I play Crons, what about it?
Also, they are just shiny space zombies with guns.
6700 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/01 04:48:05
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Dakka Veteran
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DragonRider wrote:Imhotek is the answer to all our problems.....
I disagree with this. He's fun, good in bigger games, but the surfboard lord is the answer to our problems.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/01 14:19:55
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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loreweaver wrote:DragonRider wrote:Imhotek is the answer to all our problems.....
I disagree with this. He's fun, good in bigger games, but the surfboard lord is the answer to our problems.
Seconded... at any point game, at least 1 surfboard lord is the way to go.
I'm still not sold on the Stalker... it seems to have a big, red bullseye painted on it, but isn't all that impressive (compared to other ranged walkers). It just may be the best in the elite slot... but that's not exactly our toughest slot either. Pairs do seem to be the way to use them though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/01 15:01:12
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Anpu-adom wrote:loreweaver wrote:DragonRider wrote:Imhotek is the answer to all our problems.....
I disagree with this. He's fun, good in bigger games, but the surfboard lord is the answer to our problems.
Seconded... at any point game, at least 1 surfboard lord is the way to go.
I'm still not sold on the Stalker... it seems to have a big, red bullseye painted on it, but isn't all that impressive (compared to other ranged walkers). It just may be the best in the elite slot... but that's not exactly our toughest slot either. Pairs do seem to be the way to use them though.
Two shot MM that twinlinks the target it hits and has AV 13 stacks swimmingly against most walkers for 150 points IMHO, but Sasori is right it needs the right amount of threats around it to really shine. Work in conjunction with ABarges or Night Scythes it can really buff the damage output of the Tesla Destructors, and a 2 shot MM is nothing to sneeze at (not to mention the only Melta in the whole Dex).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/02/01 15:08:40
Subject: Necron vehicles = to explody?
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Dakka Veteran
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I wonder ... 2 Stalkers, 2 Ghost Arks, a Doom Scythe, 2 Anni-Barges If you can get enough threats on the board, I think a Doom Scythe really starts to shine, although you're not all AV13 then :-) hrm... a unit of Warscythe Lychguard in a Night Scythe would add well into that list too. Tasty. (Supersonic across the board, next turn disembark before moving, then assault something)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/01 15:08:53
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