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Hello TombWorlds,

I know that Necron vehicles are, by and large, AV13. But, being that they are open topped, and AV 11 after being penned, does anyone else feel that they are just too squishy?
I'm so conflicted with these things. They are expensive, for transports, I mean a ghost arc costs almost 3 times that of a rhino. So buying a DT is a real tacticle decision. Now luckily, they are actually rather useful. In no way am I arguing that the vehicles and tanks are over costed for what they can do. I know that a tank that can make troops is fantastic, but what concerns me is that, once you get past the AV 13, which we know will happen, the tank is pretty much gone after that.

Take our "walker", the stalker (hey I'm Dr. Suse!). He's AV13 but open topped. So any pene that he gets is going to be minimum a two, if its AP1 then you at minium lose the only weapon you have. That means that on a pen, not an AP1 this time, you have two outcomes that are surviable; you get stunned or you get immobilised. After that, its weapon destroyed, wrecked, or exploded. Since it has only 1 weapon and no DCCW, it becomes useless. The same happens for almost all our vehicles. The ghost arc has at least 2 sets of guns to lose and can still spawn stuff.

The doomsday cannon, annihilation barge, both have very little to offer after the first pen. The only exception is the Monolith. I feel like, this was intentional, that Necrons where suppose to be an army that moved on foot, using vehicles as supporting roles in the strickest sense. Maybe, the advent of ED 6 will shine some light onto the reasons for Necrons being this way.

Am I alone in this? Or are there others out there who feel Necrons were meant to be played on foot?

Welcome to the pain that the dark eldar have felt for so long.

I think they tend to be resilient enough, however I tend to agree with your notion that Cronies were designed to be a predominantly foot force. I tend keep my bots out side of the GAs until they need some repairs and then pick them up, and my understanding with Scythe spam is it is best to drop your load early, so you still end up on foot.

Maybe not that they are supposed to be on foot, but that your focus needs to be with them walking. With the rumors of 6th being more towards infantry, this makes sense.

Besides, your vehicles can't be wrecked by bolters, so they are not as squishy as Dark Eldar, but close.

Yes, but are dark eldar ships as expensive? Also, Dark Eldar are primarly so fast that it gets them across the board right away. I don't feel that Necrons has that. I don't honestly see the place for Necron vehicles in a transportation sense. Maybe, its also this tank/antitank meta that is so confusing.

ZombieJoe wrote:
...Necrons where suppose to be an army that moved on foot, using vehicles as supporting roles in the strickest sense. Maybe, the advent of ED 6 will shine some light onto the reasons for Necrons being this way.

Am I alone in this? Or are there others out there who feel Necrons were meant to be played on foot?

I'm building a list with 20 Warriors with a Phaeron that will be flanked by 8 Warriors+2 Crypteks in Ghost Arks. I'm also using 2 Monoliths that can get that large foot unit out of trouble if necessary.

I think Necrons have just become MUCH more versatile. We can play mechanized, foot-slogging, or hybrid and use any mix of the options available to a satisfying level.

OT...@Field_Mouse, is that Martin the Warrior as your avatar?

However the big thing is that autocannon's need 6's to glance. Which means that lists with autocannon spam (like the dreaded rifleman dread) are going to have a really hard time handling Necron vehicles. And eldar scatter lasers aren't going to do anything to them. Yeah my rhino may be AV11 front+sides, but then again tau can rapid fire them to death. Not so on the necron ones.

I agree with that, and I agree that missile spam has trouble with this AV13. But, maybe its just me, but every game I play now, is against GK, SW, or BA, and every game I have units deepstriking and shooting meltas at them.


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And its the cost that makes that so nasty. Losing a rhino like that means nothing, because, hey, they are in range for shooting and assault now. But, against vehicles that at min cost 100 points, it hurts the army when they lose it. A ghost arc is 6% of an 1850 list while a rhino is 1%.

Field_Mouse wrote:Maybe not that they are supposed to be on foot, but that your focus needs to be with them walking. With the rumors of 6th being more towards infantry, this makes sense.

Besides, your vehicles can't be wrecked by bolters, so they are not as squishy as Dark Eldar, but close.

In reality, the AV 13, even if open topped, is still the most resilient transport in the game. Strength 6 weapons can actually scratch AV12 and lower, so that AV 13 buys you immunity to all sorts of weapons, and even against your bog standard missile has an 11% chance to pop AV 13 open topped (assuming the hit) where as it has a 11% chance to pop AV 12 closed top, so that's a wash, except the QS vehicles have it on the side as well (as opposed to a chimera where the top level armour is only up front) as well as being living metal.

Marshal_Gus wrote:I think Necrons have just become MUCH more versatile. We can play mechanized, foot-slogging, or hybrid and use any mix of the options available to a satisfying level.

I so agaree with you. I play hybrid and it works well for me. Plus throw some tomb spyders in there with fabricator claws and you're good to go!

ZombieJoe wrote:
Am I alone in this? Or are there others out there who feel Necrons were meant to be played on foot?

They're more than fast enough to get anywhere the feel like getting without transports.

The barges are some of the best vehicles in the game for their costs.

Just say no to Ghost Arks and AlwaysDead Scythes.

DarknessEternal wrote:

ZombieJoe wrote:
Am I alone in this? Or are there others out there who feel Necrons were meant to be played on foot?

They're more than fast enough to get anywhere the feel like getting without transports.

The barges are some of the best vehicles in the game for their costs.

Just say no to Ghost Arks and AlwaysDead Scythes.

i always lurk around here and warseer i dont know why didnt make an account here earlier, anyway ...

- as a Necron player who proxied Scythes, and have 3 ghost arks ... quantum shielding is the thing, scythes are superfragile, and IMHO Newcrons have to be resilent they need to survive long range shooting, then get up close with rapid fire or tesla.

in my last game my "28 gauss shoots ghost arks with 9 warriors+lord" where awesome.

Whoah, let's ease up on the trash talking of scythes.
They're supersonic transports, lets not forget how valuable that is. They have a great anti-infantry weapon that's functional from the very edge of night-fighting range. They can deposit their cargo on objectives and participate on a completely different side of the battlefield on the very next turn, benefitting from a cover save and living armor when they do it.

AV 11 all around is still better than that soft backside that rhinos, chimeras, and razorbacks share.

If you use night scythes well, they can last a few rounds, during which time they're always doing something useful, even if it is just drawing fire away from your other threats (read wraiths and scarabs).

I run 2 (badly proxied) night scythes in my list and I'm usually pretty happy to have them; thrilled in fact, if they live to the end-game where they're critical in scoring those Ws.

I'm interested to hear how well Doom Scythes have performed.

I currently don't use one because (aside from wanting a primarily footslogging army) they seem to be a 175pt model, with no more armour than a standard rhino.

I could be wrong, but considering the relatively short range of their weapon, it just seems like you'll get 1 shot before it gets blasted out of the air.

I don't really think so, the advantage of Deldar having really vulnerable vehicles is that they are really fast and can pump out lots of shots, the thing for me is, as a Tau player, my MP's cant now reduce that armour so they are still pretty good against me, It's like GW wants to make us Tau players suffer

your mum=too explody

Badboybellman wrote:your mum=too explody

Awesome.

Scathing words my friend...

junk wrote:Whoah, let's ease up on the trash talking of scythes.
They're supersonic transports, lets not forget how valuable that is. They have a great anti-infantry weapon that's functional from the very edge of night-fighting range. They can deposit their cargo on objectives and participate on a completely different side of the battlefield on the very next turn, benefitting from a cover save and living armor when they do it.

AV 11 all around is still better than that soft backside that rhinos, chimeras, and razorbacks share.

If you use night scythes well, they can last a few rounds, during which time they're always doing something useful, even if it is just drawing fire away from your other threats (read wraiths and scarabs).

I run 2 (badly proxied) night scythes in my list and I'm usually pretty happy to have them; thrilled in fact, if they live to the end-game where they're critical in scoring those Ws.

i'm not saying that scythes are the worst thing in the book . im just saying that 175 are a lot of points and AV11 doesn't help...and the dont pack that many firepower.

in the current meta pop up av 11 vehicles is just too easy

wolftime wrote:
i'm not saying that scythes are the worst thing in the book . im just saying that 175 are a lot of points and AV11 doesn't help...and the dont pack that many firepower.

in the current meta pop up av 11 vehicles is just too easy

This is kinda where I am.

Night Scythes seem ok, since they're 100pt transports with a decent weapon. Lack of quantum shielding is a little annoying, but they're fast (which is very nice) and they can basically dump their cargo 12" forward in the firs turn, then act as Annihilation bardges for the rest of the game.

However, the Doom Scythe seems rather dubious. A S10 AP1 weapon is likely to attract a lot of firepower - especially if your opponent has a lot of vehicles or terminators. Sadly, it just doesn't have the survivability to deal with that. Rockets will penetrate it on a 4+, and any 'weapon destroyed' results will knock it down to a Night Scythe with no transport capacity. It just seems like a very dubious investment for 175pts.

I don't know if it's always a bad investment. Consider them in a Wraith list where your opponent will be throwing ever strength 8+ weapon at those Wraiths for instagibs...then your Doom Scythes either live long enough to kill something or they take pressure off of your Wraiths.

If you consider lists that rely on castling (Ork Battlewagons, Razorback spam with 5++) then the Doom Scythes could really shine. Take 2-3 in a list, turbo-boost them on turn 1 to get the cover save, and hopefully blow up a few tanks on turn 2.

Just saying.

Bottom line, I'm so happy with the plethora of options in the codex and how people are finding ways to make all of them viable to some degree. Except maybe for Flayed Ones, but they'll have 6th ed to help them out, right?

The doom scythe was actually one of the few units in the necron dex that caught my eye.

It certainly has its drawbacks and a certain degree of fragility.

However, its weapon is actually pretty incredible. IF you can design a force around them, I think doom scythe spam is actually pretty powerful.

I'm not a necron player, but the idea of using 2x solar flare teks with 3x doom scythes to allow them to get a good position for their lollazersbeams seems very strong against mech heavy armies.

In fact, I'm kind of waiting on the scythe models to be released so I can give this kind of idea a try. I find it more appealing than the scarab farm which the internet seems to greatly favour.

wolftime wrote:
- as a Necron player who proxied Scythes, and have 3 ghost arks ... quantum shielding is the thing, scythes are superfragile, and IMHO Newcrons have to be resilent they need to survive long range shooting, then get up close with rapid fire or tesla.

2 Solar Pulses deliver them into close range just as easily. Your army will also have more offense over those turns since most of it isn't trapped in terrible transports.

vipoid wrote:

wolftime wrote:
i'm not saying that scythes are the worst thing in the book . im just saying that 175 are a lot of points and AV11 doesn't help...and the dont pack that many firepower.

in the current meta pop up av 11 vehicles is just too easy

This is kinda where I am.

Night Scythes seem ok, since they're 100pt transports with a decent weapon. Lack of quantum shielding is a little annoying, but they're fast (which is very nice) and they can basically dump their cargo 12" forward in the firs turn, then act as Annihilation bardges for the rest of the game.

However, the Doom Scythe seems rather dubious. A S10 AP1 weapon is likely to attract a lot of firepower - especially if your opponent has a lot of vehicles or terminators. Sadly, it just doesn't have the survivability to deal with that. Rockets will penetrate it on a 4+, and any 'weapon destroyed' results will knock it down to a Night Scythe with no transport capacity. It just seems like a very dubious investment for 175pts.

The thing that intrigues me most about the DS is it should get to strike first, one way or another. I've though about bring them in a full scythe army, flat outing onto one flank first turn under the cover of night, then moving in and zapping after that. Maybe compliment it with a good chunk of gauss and supressing so you can minimise its early threats while it flies around cutting holes through vehicles.

I definitely think it has potential, that 12" 2D6" of 10/1 is pretty nasty.

Field_Mouse wrote:Maybe not that they are supposed to be on foot, but that your focus needs to be with them walking. With the rumors of 6th being more towards infantry, this makes sense.

Besides, your vehicles can't be wrecked by bolters, so they are not as squishy as Dark Eldar, but close.

Well, mech Eldar armies usually rely on S6 spam and so cannot penetrate Necron AV (would-be) 13 vehicles. The enemy needs an AV 8 (or higher) shooting weapon for penetration. Not a bad deal when you ask me.

You've all made some pretty reasonable arguments. I feel less uncertain about our vehicles now. But, in really competitive play, like adepticon. I feel that our vehicels are a liability. I would love nothing more than to take 30 immortals with tesla and two stalkers. But, against Decent of angels or any super DS heavy list, the potential to have our tanks smack out right away is too great for me. If you dont get matched up with one of those kinds of lists, then I think they'll do really well.

Do you guys think that its a safe to spend 25% or more of our army points on vehicles that might get ganked turn 1 or 2?

ZombieJoe wrote:You've all made some pretty reasonable arguments. I feel less uncertain about our vehicles now. But, in really competitive play, like adepticon. I feel that our vehicels are a liability. I would love nothing more than to take 30 immortals with tesla and two stalkers. But, against Decent of angels or any super DS heavy list, the potential to have our tanks smack out right away is too great for me. If you dont get matched up with one of those kinds of lists, then I think they'll do really well.

Do you guys think that its a safe to spend 25% or more of our army points on vehicles that might get ganked turn 1 or 2?

Keep in mind just about every Dex has to deal with this at some point. Some make up for it in redundancy and spamyspam, crons make up for it in resiliency. DSing melta being what it is, just gotta roll with it I guess, but no army is completely immune to it, and it should still take 3 or 4 melta shots, in range, to take down AV 13. Also if it becomes a real problem we do have some nifty tools that can mittigate that a bit (StormTeks, Lord of FIre shard, etc).

I haven't thought of that. Taking monoliths, doomsdays, ect ect, then protecting them with C'tans and stormteks...by god, I haven't thought of that. I'll have to make list around that.

Thanks!

ShadarLogoth wrote:

ZombieJoe wrote:You've all made some pretty reasonable arguments. I feel less uncertain about our vehicles now. But, in really competitive play, like adepticon. I feel that our vehicels are a liability. I would love nothing more than to take 30 immortals with tesla and two stalkers. But, against Decent of angels or any super DS heavy list, the potential to have our tanks smack out right away is too great for me. If you dont get matched up with one of those kinds of lists, then I think they'll do really well.

Do you guys think that its a safe to spend 25% or more of our army points on vehicles that might get ganked turn 1 or 2?

Keep in mind just about every Dex has to deal with this at some point. Some make up for it in redundancy and spamyspam, crons make up for it in resiliency. DSing melta being what it is, just gotta roll with it I guess, but no army is completely immune to it, and it should still take 3 or 4 melta shots, in range, to take down AV 13. Also if it becomes a real problem we do have some nifty tools that can mittigate that a bit (StormTeks, Lord of FIre shard, etc).

dude my list its about saturation, i pack 2 annihilation barges , 1 catacomb barge and 3 ghost arks, im just waiting for the triarch stalker model to use my last heavy support slot. thats 7 av 13 vehicles...

wolftime wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

ZombieJoe wrote:You've all made some pretty reasonable arguments. I feel less uncertain about our vehicles now. But, in really competitive play, like adepticon. I feel that our vehicels are a liability. I would love nothing more than to take 30 immortals with tesla and two stalkers. But, against Decent of angels or any super DS heavy list, the potential to have our tanks smack out right away is too great for me. If you dont get matched up with one of those kinds of lists, then I think they'll do really well.

Do you guys think that its a safe to spend 25% or more of our army points on vehicles that might get ganked turn 1 or 2?

Keep in mind just about every Dex has to deal with this at some point. Some make up for it in redundancy and spamyspam, crons make up for it in resiliency. DSing melta being what it is, just gotta roll with it I guess, but no army is completely immune to it, and it should still take 3 or 4 melta shots, in range, to take down AV 13. Also if it becomes a real problem we do have some nifty tools that can mittigate that a bit (StormTeks, Lord of FIre shard, etc).

dude my list its about saturation, i pack 2 annihilation barges , 1 catacomb barge and 3 ghost arks, im just waiting for the triarch stalker model to use my last heavy support slot. thats 7 av 13 vehicles...

Yeah saturation+ resiliency can be super nasty. Compare that with Venomspam lists with 9ish AV10 OT and 3ish AV 11 OT, I would say 7 AV 13 OT stack up pretty well, not too mention Crons Vehicles have living metal (although the Deldar might have FF or NS).