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Genestealers aren't humans at all. They use humans to corrupt goverments to weaken resistance. But Genestealers thamselves are 100% Tyranid, and were when they first reached the galaxy.

The problem with the whole Swarmlord thing was GW wanted a "general" Tyranid of which there was only 1 of. By their very nature, Tyranids can't really have individual characters but Codex Tyranids 5th Ed has a special character quota to fill.

Tyranid lore is fine.... They are breeding new variants for better mushing everyone else....

Not rocket science.... the only interesting parts of Tyranid codex is what the other guys do to the Hive Fleets... since Tyranids dont really do anything other than eat people.

They could have individual characters if they didn't grind them into paste after every battle.

The thing with the swarmlord and the hive mind thingy is that well....

look at it this way.

It is true that the swarmlord is part of the hive mind consciousness and so basically it would make sense that since it's there, the hive mind wouldn't need to spawn it.

But the strategizing and reacting that the Hivemind does is all reactionary. Ground units are being decimated? Spawn more flyers or tanky guys. Giant bastion in the way? Send infiltrators and seige bugs

When a swarmlord is spawned, it's spawned because reactionary tactics aren't enough. A swarmlord is all the tactical strategizing of the hive in a compact, faster form. Being a nigh indestructable synapse creature, it's strategizing from the frontline and controlling the swarm with tactics and martial prowess.

In short: reactionary (hive mind) slower than intiative (swarmlord)

I like that the tyranids are really open for customization like orks. They could do whatever you want, you can customize the way they attack and you are essentailly the hivemind so you set whatever goal you want your army to do, unlike other races that have a specific way of doing things.

Marik Law wrote:My point was never that they were hard to customize, there is a lot to base them on as far as looks are concerned. I was more concerned about the lore.

My problem is that said goal really doesn't have many avenues. In all the lore I read about the Tyranids its always just invade, consume, and devour an entire planet's resources until its dead then move on. Apart from their evolutionary paths their goals and behavior always seems to be locust-like. That's my main problem, why do they have to act like locusts? Why can't there be some solid GW fluff that says some hive fleets behave differently, form stable colonies on worlds instead of ravaging them (giving them more of an ant-like feel, utilizing what they have to produce continuous resources instead of just draining planets dry and moving on) or other such methods?

All in all, my point is that having them all be locust-like (not in appearance, but in their overall behavior), to me, takes away each fleet's/hive's character lore-wise and, apart from biomorph or differences of appearance, makes them virtually identical in behavior and goals. It would just be nice to see certain hives behaving differently in ways other than evolution and biomorphs. To me, the goal is very important, the path to getting to that goal is what you're supposed to play out.

For me its always fun to find out the deeper lore not just to each army, but to each division/chapter/craftworld/etc of that army. Sadly every time I see the Tyranids I rarely get that urge to dig deeper, as there's really not much there once you scratch the surface. While reading up on evolutionary paths may be interesting to some, it's not very deep to me as they have no personality and no culture behind them or driving them. Even the multitude of insects we have on our own planet behave differently depending on species and location.

I don't know, maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but for me it's one of the main reason I have never really gotten into playing Tyranids. Crafting my army's own backstory and personality is key to me for building a new army and while I can see a ton of conversion potential for the Tyranids what I can't see is anything I'd consider interesting backstory as all Nids, apart from what they've "absorbed" and what evolution they're progressing on, really don't have much difference between each other. They all start the same, their goals are always the same, and they all behave the same. To me, that's a horror movie villain, just a constant faceless evil that never dies. That may be fun to fight against, to me it isn't very fun to play as, as once you scratch the surface of what their all about that's pretty much it.

Again, may just be me, but I feel each of the hives could use as least some difference apart from just their evolutionary path and appearance.

I like the Tyranid fluff. Where every other faction (except the Orks) are LOADED WITH ANGST AND DOOM, the Tyranids are simple. They are there to feed. They are here to expand and survive. It's what separates them from other factions, and that's much of their appeal to me.

For people who need to create loads and loads of backstory for their forces, there's all sorts of Space Marine chapters and all the other factions which allow the player to exercise their story skills. I don't need to create a story as to why Splinter Fleet Mordiggian is cool. Just the fact that they're six-legged biogun-toting space dinosaurs means they're awesome. They have no conflict, no remorse, no mercy, and no one ever expects them to have any. They are single-minded killing machines that the Space Marines aspire to be.

Tyranid change, as pointed out by other posters, is a long game, and tied with the changes in WH40K itself. New models and codecils come out, and the Hive has more specialized organisms available. Now I can take a tervigon or a tyrannofex, , where no one in the Imperium had heard of one before.

Others have said as much already, but no, you don't make an army "less boring" by making it less unique. Leave the Tyranids as they are (just as the studio should have left the Necrons).

King Crow wrote:I like that the tyranids are really open for customization like orks. They could do whatever you want, you can customize the way they attack and you are essentailly the hivemind so you set whatever goal you want your army to do, unlike other races that have a specific way of doing things.

Yeah this is an angle a lot of people don't get. Tyranids aren't just the Gaunts, Warriors, and Carnifex's. Those are just the most frequently encountered species. The Hive Mind regularly creates new kinds of Tyranids for specific missions and battles. It leaves a lot open for customization.

The book Ice Guard goes into that a bit. There are lots of different kinds of Tyranids never encountered before or since, such as giant Millipede-like creatures.

I like the way they are now, however I would love to see the tyranids "infest" a world instead of just suck it dry. The other dozens of galaxies they have hit before this one being stuffed with Tyranid is a cool (and scary) thought!

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I like the way they are now, however I would love to see the tyranids "infest" a world instead of just suck it dry. The other dozens of galaxies they have hit before this one being stuffed with Tyranid is a cool (and scary) thought!

Honestly, I think the concept of the dozen galaxies behind them being galaxies filled with lifeless rocks far more terrifying. If they infest a planet, it means that technically there's something you can fight back against and win against. Once a hive fleet is done with a planet, there's just nothing there but a rock. When they're done with a galaxy, it's not only lifeless, it's completely and utterly empty of everything that could actually create life again. It's a ghost galaxy.

-Loki- wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I like the way they are now, however I would love to see the tyranids "infest" a world instead of just suck it dry. The other dozens of galaxies they have hit before this one being stuffed with Tyranid is a cool (and scary) thought!

Honestly, I think the concept of the dozen galaxies behind them being galaxies filled with lifeless rocks far more terrifying. If they infest a planet, it means that technically there's something you can fight back against and win against. Once a hive fleet is done with a planet, there's just nothing there but a rock. When they're done with a galaxy, it's not only lifeless, it's completely and utterly empty of everything that could actually create life again. It's a ghost galaxy.

I was more thinking like the creep the zerg use in starcraft. Its good for the nids but nothing the imperium can use. If they retake the planet the Tyranid life on it will die and THEN it is a barren rock.

-Loki- wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I like the way they are now, however I would love to see the tyranids "infest" a world instead of just suck it dry. The other dozens of galaxies they have hit before this one being stuffed with Tyranid is a cool (and scary) thought!

Honestly, I think the concept of the dozen galaxies behind them being galaxies filled with lifeless rocks far more terrifying. If they infest a planet, it means that technically there's something you can fight back against and win against. Once a hive fleet is done with a planet, there's just nothing there but a rock. When they're done with a galaxy, it's not only lifeless, it's completely and utterly empty of everything that could actually create life again. It's a ghost galaxy.

That might be scary, but it dose kind of add to the boring thing. Whats more boring then rocks. I think I would like it if nids had more objectives they could do. They have a lot of options and verity, but all leading up to one goal. They eat, but can't anyone come up with something else for them to do?

With Loki 100% in general on this one.

The last thing 40k needs is another "Humanified" race.

The all-consuming alien race is what actually got me into 40k ~ their fluff is so different and unique that they are unlike any other race.

I have to say, the Tyranids as a faceless, remorseless wave of death, leaving behind ghost galaxies, is just perfect. I hate the whole concept of the swarmlord for failing to follow even the basics of Tyranid fluff (we are an all-seeing hive mind, but we have to re-create this one bug in different places to think for us??).

Listen up, GW - if the 'Nids absolutely NEED to have special character options to fit some kind of quota you've created for yourselves, go the route you used before. Tyranid special characters are one-off bugs, either extra weird or extra grizzled or whatever. You could even go so far as to make one special character entry whose whole purpose is to be near-infinitely adaptable, like a 'Nid Creation Template that lets you make one uber-unique bug.

Just please, don't make another swarmlord. Get rid of that in the next edition and don't break your own fluff again.


Edit: actually, to further refine my idea - the Tyranids could have a "special character" that's the first and nastiest of an emerging strain specifically designed to counter the enemy you're up against. Make it a character whose statline you are allowed to alter to some extent at the start of a battle, representing rapid adaptation in the face of a new foe. Start with a basic big-bug statline and distribute X points however you see fit to tailor your creature to your enemy, with the ability to select one special rule out of a small list of options. There are definitely ways of giving the Tyranids "character" without literally making a recurring character in a faceless race with a single consciousness who recycles its own creatures.

I think the uniformity of purpose for the Tyranids as a whole gives the army as a whole less character. There are no rebel offshoots of the Hive Mind looking to upend the whole plan to consume the galaxy. The closest we have are genestealer cults that look to come back into the fold of the swarm, less the one mutant strain the Hive Mind purposefully does not embrace (Ymargl Genestealers).

Very little variation on the fluff themes other than the various hive fleets and splinters that have different ways to evolve and fight the sentient defenders of the galaxy.

If there was a new direction taken on the Tyranids featuring a full blown schism in their ranks, then perhaps it would make them a much more interesting race to like from a fluff standpoint.

But as others have pointed out, why do that? The faceless, infinite horrors from beyond the stars makes for a perfect enemy for all to fight against and means that they serve a very specific niche inside the story of the 40k universe.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Just please, don't make another swarmlord. Get rid of that in the next edition and don't break your own fluff again.

I think the Swarmlord has merit, but Cruddace wasn't the person to introduce it. Making it semi-separated from the Hive Mind used as a ground level tactics creator is stupid for a lot of reasons. One simple one is it's only in one place. If it needs to be on the ground seeing the fight, it's doing nothing. Tyranids attack on a world-wide scale, and the Swarmlord is definitely not everywhere.

However, the idea has merit for a more powerful Hive Tyrant. Tyrants are leader beasts, but Swarmlords could be psychic monstrosities and massive synaptic hubs. There are ways of adding something like the Swarmlord without destroying the Tyranid fluff. Cruddace just did it terribly.

They need to give the next codex back to Kelly, and let him retcon the terrible stuff Cruddace did and make the fluff work again.

As a necron fan, I really like the new models but I hate the new fluff. The thought of a metal monster wheeling and dealing with a lesser race is sickening. I still run my theme the oldschool eliminate theme all way, just with some actual tactical choices.At least the nids haven't teamed up with someone yet. I really really hate fluff for the sake of selling models, but you can still ignore it and come up with your own reasons. The adaptability of the nids is awesome, and you should really run with it. Digging that fish nid a lot, makes me want some bugs of my own.

I like the fluff as it is. Also, my homebrew codex banks on the facts that they Tyranid lore remains the same, so there's that too.

-Loki- wrote:

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Just please, don't make another swarmlord. Get rid of that in the next edition and don't break your own fluff again.

I think the Swarmlord has merit, but Cruddace wasn't the person to introduce it. Making it semi-separated from the Hive Mind used as a ground level tactics creator is stupid for a lot of reasons. One simple one is it's only in one place. If it needs to be on the ground seeing the fight, it's doing nothing. Tyranids attack on a world-wide scale, and the Swarmlord is definitely not everywhere.

However, the idea has merit for a more powerful Hive Tyrant. Tyrants are leader beasts, but Swarmlords could be psychic monstrosities and massive synaptic hubs. There are ways of adding something like the Swarmlord without destroying the Tyranid fluff. Cruddace just did it terribly.

They need to give the next codex back to Kelly, and let him retcon the terrible stuff Cruddace did and make the fluff work again.

If your going to make independent characters, then they should maybe have some character. Nids don't name there creations, but it dosen't stop the other armies from picking one of them and giving them a name. Take a creature that is scared or mutated in someway to make them stand out and give them a back story.

nomotog wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Just please, don't make another swarmlord. Get rid of that in the next edition and don't break your own fluff again.

I think the Swarmlord has merit, but Cruddace wasn't the person to introduce it. Making it semi-separated from the Hive Mind used as a ground level tactics creator is stupid for a lot of reasons. One simple one is it's only in one place. If it needs to be on the ground seeing the fight, it's doing nothing. Tyranids attack on a world-wide scale, and the Swarmlord is definitely not everywhere.

However, the idea has merit for a more powerful Hive Tyrant. Tyrants are leader beasts, but Swarmlords could be psychic monstrosities and massive synaptic hubs. There are ways of adding something like the Swarmlord without destroying the Tyranid fluff. Cruddace just did it terribly.

They need to give the next codex back to Kelly, and let him retcon the terrible stuff Cruddace did and make the fluff work again.

If your going to make independent characters, then they should maybe have some character. Nids don't name there creations, but it dosen't stop the other armies from picking one of them and giving them a name. Take a creature that is scared or mutated in someway to make them stand out and give them a back story.

I never said make it a special character. That's what Cruddace did. I'm talking about making it another form of Hive Tyrant. Being a special character is precisely its problem - new fluff removing that and just making them different types of Hive Tyrant would work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:But the strategizing and reacting that the Hivemind does is all reactionary. Ground units are being decimated? Spawn more flyers or tanky guys. Giant bastion in the way? Send infiltrators and seige bugs

When a swarmlord is spawned, it's spawned because reactionary tactics aren't enough. A swarmlord is all the tactical strategizing of the hive in a compact, faster form. Being a nigh indestructable synapse creature, it's strategizing from the frontline and controlling the swarm with tactics and martial prowess.

The hive mind has no problems developing cunning strategies without the Swarmlord being present. Just look at how they killed Skarfang. They lured him and his retinue into a bank of Venomthrope spore clouds and used Lictors to stalk the retinue inside the fog, before revealing themselves to Skarfang and finally butchering him.

That's not reactionary. That's assassination of an influential leader to demoralize the enemy.

The Swarmlord does make sense though.

The Hive Mind is the collected conscioussness of every Tyranid. It is everywhere, sees and knows everything that its component creatures do (to some extent), etc. However, the Hive Mind exists on a massive (galactic) scale. It filters itself down through smaller nodes to interract with the universe on a smaller scale.

This isn't "new" by any means; for example Tyranid Warriors have always been "leader beasts", not just broadcasting the Synapse web onto Termagants and their kin as a slave-signal, but co-ordinating the creatures under their control. A brood of Termagants in the presence of a Tyranid Warrior benefit from the Tyranid Warrior's intellect and understanding of the battlefield, tactics and grander plans. The Tyranid Warrior can compel the Termagants to shoot at the exposed, fleshy areas of the prey, just as it can suppress the Termagants natural instincts and rive them straight into enemy gunfire, and direct the Termagants to flank left while another Tyranid brood flanks right.

The Tyranid Warrior sends and receives information, and co-ordinates the Tyranids in the area. The Tyranid Warrior in turn sends and receives information too and from its own masters (a Hive Tyrant, Dominatrix, whatever), all the way back up the chain. When you look at this on a galactic scale, we refer to it as the Hive Mind. It just so happens that this entire... thing... is so vast and complicated that it's actually "alive" (compare it to the way that you are "alive" but composed of billions of cells, electrical charges etc).

This brings us back to the Swarmlord. The Swarmlord is just a Hive Tyrant that displays an excellent understanding of battlefield tactics and strategy. It is able to receive signals, interpret them in novel ways and send directives which another Tyranid creature may not. We already distinguish between a Tyranid Warrior's capacity to command and control Tyranids and that of a Hive Tyrant, so why not distinguish between Tyrants?

For all the Swarmlord's success and somewhat hallowed position, at the end of the day it is just another Tyranid. It is just another part of the super-organism that is the Tyranid race, and another part of the Hive Mind as a collected entity.



I totally recommend giving this article a read: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/02/40k-fluff-nature-of-hivemind.html

It's well written, and presents an excellent way of trying to grasp what the Tyranid Hive Mind is (if such a thing is really possible).


In conclusion, I'm going to agree with a very smart sentiment put forward in this thread: Tyranids offer something very different to WH40k, and because of this they are not for everyone. That they are portrayed like this is absolutely to the benefit of the setting though, because against the infinite, alien hunger of the beast the individuality of the other races is more sharply defined.

Marik Law wrote:To me, this could open up much different behavior between the fleets of Tyranids. Where as some fleets could continue to act like the current Tyranids do (like locusts), some may seek to be less destructive and use conquered planets to grow and harvest supplies to fuel the on-going war-efforts (much like some species of ants or termites which grow fungus in their lair to consume), where as others may be open to cooperation or even just negotiation with other species. It would allow each player to make their hive/fleet their own without just having them fall into the territory of "consume and move on."

Absolutely not. The tyranids are the faceless, remorseless, all-consuming horror. Even a daemon of the warp can be bargained with and it's goals rationalised and humanised, the ancient necrons have been retconned to a Neutral Evil of infighting ancients, the Dark Eldar a capricious malignance and the usual human vices amplified.

Tyranids are a storm, they are force of nature, they are beyond notions of morality and trivial human bargaining or negotiation. They are the real alien in the fiction, the real different.

Necrons are now evil old robot people.
Eldar are neutral dying old elf people.
Chaos are naughty betraying people.
Dark Eldar are evil pirate old elf people.
Orks are loud angry/happy green people.
Tau are hightech young innovative people.

The Tyranids are not people, the Tyranids want to eat people. You can understand the motivations of all the others, there is no understanding or empathy with Tyranids, it's like trying to treat with Ebola.

I will nerdrage on a scale even God has not seen if they 'humanise' the Tyranids.






On the subject of the recent 'character' nids, meh, they are just advanced prototypes of various new weapons of the hivemind. The Swarmlord the result of tyrant hyperevolution brought on by the Norn Queens not receiving sufficient nutrients due to prolonged conflict against a difficult food source...

-Loki- wrote:

nomotog wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Just please, don't make another swarmlord. Get rid of that in the next edition and don't break your own fluff again.

I think the Swarmlord has merit, but Cruddace wasn't the person to introduce it. Making it semi-separated from the Hive Mind used as a ground level tactics creator is stupid for a lot of reasons. One simple one is it's only in one place. If it needs to be on the ground seeing the fight, it's doing nothing. Tyranids attack on a world-wide scale, and the Swarmlord is definitely not everywhere.

However, the idea has merit for a more powerful Hive Tyrant. Tyrants are leader beasts, but Swarmlords could be psychic monstrosities and massive synaptic hubs. There are ways of adding something like the Swarmlord without destroying the Tyranid fluff. Cruddace just did it terribly.

They need to give the next codex back to Kelly, and let him retcon the terrible stuff Cruddace did and make the fluff work again.

If your going to make independent characters, then they should maybe have some character. Nids don't name there creations, but it dosen't stop the other armies from picking one of them and giving them a name. Take a creature that is scared or mutated in someway to make them stand out and give them a back story.

I never said make it a special character. That's what Cruddace did. I'm talking about making it another form of Hive Tyrant. Being a special character is precisely its problem - new fluff removing that and just making them different types of Hive Tyrant would work.

Bla. I just noticed. I didn't mean to quote your post. I thought I was quoting CalgarsPimpHand and his idea about this topic.

I think the addition of a rule stating while the swarmlord is present on the battlefield, the entire field is covered by synapse. That is the beat way to represent the power it has been given.

Now that the Necrons have become more humanised I think there is even more to set the Tyranids apart. They're now the only truly relentless and single-minded faction.

I have thought before that rather than having "one-off" characters like the Swarmlord or Old One-Eye these characters should rather have been presented as "templates" for specfic types of life-form - for example, rather than there being a single unique Carnifex called Old One-Eye this character could have represented a type of super-Carnifex deployed by the Hive Mind in exceptional circumstances. That way, you could have a model in your army with the power and individuality on the tabletop of a special character that was nevertheless another anonymous and single-minded bioform.

Fezman wrote:Now that the Necrons have become more humanised I think there is even more to set the Tyranids apart. They're now the only truly relentless and single-minded faction.

I have thought before that rather than having "one-off" characters like the Swarmlord or Old One-Eye these characters should rather have been presented as "templates" for specfic types of life-form - for example, rather than there being a single unique Carnifex called Old One-Eye this character could have represented a type of super-Carnifex deployed by the Hive Mind in exceptional circumstances. That way, you could have a model in your army with the power and individuality on the tabletop of a special character that was nevertheless another anonymous and single-minded bioform.

There is actually a passage in the book that states that thhese "named" creatures are just examples of these creatures. It fully encourages you to use "different" creatures in your own campaigns, if the theme of the army is important to you, because as people in this thread have highlighted having a single "Old One Eye" on Calth and then having it appear on John Smith's campaign near Cadia is just silly.

I agree. Tyranids need to be more about destruction and death.

Tyranids are in an awkward position, because they have a relatively small number of special characters, and they're basically all the same. "I'm a buffed Zoan/Carn/Tyrant, RAR!".

I like the reference to "The Thing" in Old One Eye's fluff, though. Actually, the only reason I got into Tyranids was I loved their "absorb biomass" shtick, a la "The Thing".