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With the recent make-over of the Necrons and the reasoning behind such being that the armies were difficult to really customize and give the player a good feel of uniqueness and independence, it got me to thinking about another army which suffers from the same problem in their lore (though albeit maybe not in their rules) and it's led me to one question: are the Tyranids boring lore-wise?

While they are a cool looking army and there's lots of room to customize their colours and biomorphs, lore-wise there really isn't a lot that can set your army apart from other Tyranid armies as they all have the same drives and objectives and, not saying this to be offensive or anything, they tend to be fairly mindless in their all-consuming goals.

I thought about this problem long and hard, the only conclusion I could come up with is the "death" of the all-controlling hive mind and having the "fleets" controlled by some sort of hive individual (Norn Queens or something else). To me, this could open up much different behavior between the fleets of Tyranids. Where as some fleets could continue to act like the current Tyranids do (like locusts), some may seek to be less destructive and use conquered planets to grow and harvest supplies to fuel the on-going war-efforts (much like some species of ants or termites which grow fungus in their lair to consume), where as others may be open to cooperation or even just negotiation with other species. It would allow each player to make their hive/fleet their own without just having them fall into the territory of "consume and move on."

The reason I post this here is because I wanted to hear other people's constructive takes on the Tyranids. Do you think they're lore is restrictive or boring? Would they benefit more (or less) from the player being able to more freely give his hive its own personality and goals?

Discuss.

I personaly like the lore for the Tryanids we need one all consuming race. if you want to give your army uniqueness they have something the necron don't the abillity to change. in there lore nids evlove to better fight on what ever world they're on and based on what they've harvested, so hive fleets can be fastly diffrent depending on the planets they have havested.

Don't touch my Tyranids!

They're a nice touch of hard sci-fi in the gothic setting of 40k.

I thought that each swarm had it's own hive mind already? Giving the nids a point outside of come eat leave might be a good thing. It helped the necrons and now that I think about it every other hive mind I can think of has some kind of personalty behind it.

I think the tyranids are pretty good as is. The fact that they have a singular hive mind that basically dictates eat eat eat is a pretty good formula

They represent a kind of natural force, constant force, something that doesn't need to be more complex because of it's complexity IN it's simplicity.

It's like waves crashing on a shore. It's natural, it's powerful, it can be stopped but it'll take a lot of resources. Waves have no emotion no personality but raw power that eventually erodes the coast.

They don't need a personality to perform the task of consuming. Yes it needs a mind to strategize or evolve new species on the fly, but a personality really isn't something that would assist the hive-mind in anyway

Negotiation and settling involve investing energy and mass in hopes of providing some sort of benefit in the long run, whereas attacking and consuming a planet involves investing the same materials in wiping out a planet and consuming all the mass (including the energy and matter sent to invade) for a shorter term gain. How would the tyranids profit from negotiations or settling? They have no need of materials (ship parts, machinary, slaves[in small numbers]), all they need is food.

So from a tyranid stand point, personality, settling, negotiating, etc, waste of materials

With regards to fluff, I think it would just add a whole lot more gak for people to argue about, tyranids are simple and powerful, they're grimdark and sci-fi-y, adding anything would just overcomplicate it

To summarize, don't fix what ain't broke


also the whole consuming thing can make for pretty gnarly mutations

Marik Law wrote:While they are a cool looking army and there's lots of room to customize their colours and biomorphs, lore-wise there really isn't a lot that can set your army apart from other Tyranid armies as they all have the same drives and objectives and, not saying this to be offensive or anything, they tend to be fairly mindless in their all-consuming goals.

I thought about this problem long and hard, the only conclusion I could come up with is the "death" of the all-controlling hive mind and having the "fleets" controlled by some sort of hive individual (Norn Queens or something else). To me, this could open up much different behavior between the fleets of Tyranids

Have you read the 4th and 5th edition codices? What a fleet encounters decides its adaptations. There's plenty of scope for making a hive fleet that's adapted differently if you want to do conversions. You could cover Tyranids in fin-like limbs if they'v been fighting through a series of aquatic planets, such as this:



You could give them all snake-like tails if you wanted to represent a primarily tunneling swarm, like this:



There's plenty you can do, conversion-wise, to differentiate your swarm. Just because it's controlled by the hive mind, doesn't mean it can't be different. The main problem with Tyranid fluff is it cannot be from their point of view, it eeds to be written from the outside looking in. This requires a bit of writing talen to get across the sheer, alien horror of them and still make the fluff able to suit what you want to do with the army.

Cruddace doesn't have that talent.

I kind of like the "White Whales" like Old One Eye and the Red Terror.

They kinda stuck with that train of thought.

I had hopes long ago, that the Tyranids would be revealed as a different C'Tan. The Outsider.

I thought that since Tyranids generally adapt to any envorment ( becoming the alpha preadator of the planets they are stranded on, Catachan Devils, Fenris Kraken),

that their "grimdark" purpose was to one day completely wipe out all other lifeforms and reseed the universe with an alpha ecosystem.

Basically a last slap in the face of the Old Ones as the Tyranids replace all they had worked for with a new "perfect" form of life.

But I was way off.

DeffDred wrote:I had hopes long ago, that the Tyranids would be revealed as a different C'Tan. The Outsider.

I thought that since Tyranids generally adapt to any envorment ( becoming the alpha preadator of the planets they are stranded on, Catachan Devils, Fenris Kraken),

This theory annoys me because it requires you to ignore three significant parts of the fluff to make it work. First - the warp is anathema to the C'tan. Second, the hive mind is a psychic entity sitting in the warp (hence the shadow).Third, pure age. C'tan are as old as the galaxy, no argument. The Tyranids had already devoured about a dozen galaxies (BRB fluff) before ours. They would have been partially on their way here before the war in heaven even happened. There's no way for them to have been created as a retaliatory force against the old ones - simply crossing the void between galaxies would take hundreds of millions of years, if not more depending on their travel method,

I feel that the singular purpose of the tyranids is their greatest strength, from which everything else is derived. If they weren't so driven to consume, all the other super speed evolution just wouldn't need to happen as fast, and their abilities would be muted. Yes, on the one hand I can see your point (op) about a lack of diversity in being able to tell your own story with nids when it comes to aims and objectives, but I have never thought of them as a vehicle for that. Nids, to me are not anthropomorphic characters, they are truly alien, an appeal precisely because of that. They are an unknowable, horrorfic, nightmare creation that cannot be reasoned with, they must be beaten with force and violence or you're done for. This blacker than black moral stance is something not found in any of the other races which, funnily enough all display human traits in one form or another. Being able to play as as the controlling force of such a tide of monsters is great because you get to be the bad guy. If you allowed some compromise in their ethos it would, to me at least, completely undo the core aspect of their appeal.

Basically, if you use the hyper-evolutionary trait of the 'nids, you can make some very interesting fluff for them indeed.
Ultimately, it's not their goal, which is very single-minded, but the specific way they go about achieving it that derived fluff works from best.

My point was never that they were hard to customize, there is a lot to base them on as far as looks are concerned. I was more concerned about the lore.

My problem is that said goal really doesn't have many avenues. In all the lore I read about the Tyranids its always just invade, consume, and devour an entire planet's resources until its dead then move on. Apart from their evolutionary paths their goals and behavior always seems to be locust-like. That's my main problem, why do they have to act like locusts? Why can't there be some solid GW fluff that says some hive fleets behave differently, form stable colonies on worlds instead of ravaging them (giving them more of an ant-like feel, utilizing what they have to produce continuous resources instead of just draining planets dry and moving on) or other such methods?

All in all, my point is that having them all be locust-like (not in appearance, but in their overall behavior), to me, takes away each fleet's/hive's character lore-wise and, apart from biomorph or differences of appearance, makes them virtually identical in behavior and goals. It would just be nice to see certain hives behaving differently in ways other than evolution and biomorphs. To me, the goal is very important, the path to getting to that goal is what you're supposed to play out.

For me its always fun to find out the deeper lore not just to each army, but to each division/chapter/craftworld/etc of that army. Sadly every time I see the Tyranids I rarely get that urge to dig deeper, as there's really not much there once you scratch the surface. While reading up on evolutionary paths may be interesting to some, it's not very deep to me as they have no personality and no culture behind them or driving them. Even the multitude of insects we have on our own planet behave differently depending on species and location.

I don't know, maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but for me it's one of the main reason I have never really gotten into playing Tyranids. Crafting my army's own backstory and personality is key to me for building a new army and while I can see a ton of conversion potential for the Tyranids what I can't see is anything I'd consider interesting backstory as all Nids, apart from what they've "absorbed" and what evolution they're progressing on, really don't have much difference between each other. They all start the same, their goals are always the same, and they all behave the same. To me, that's a horror movie villain, just a constant faceless evil that never dies. That may be fun to fight against, to me it isn't very fun to play as, as once you scratch the surface of what their all about that's pretty much it.

Again, may just be me, but I feel each of the hives could use as least some difference apart from just their evolutionary path and appearance.

The lack of any personality or goals outside of eating it probably the reason they aren't the star of there own codex. Writing a story about nids is like writing a story about water.

Tyranids have a certain terror/charm to them that comes from their mindless personality that's in the backdrop of a supreme intelligence.

Really, the Tyranids are meant to be looked at out from the outside. The ultimate threat to survival and what have you.

You do have a deeper lore, of 'nids that set up shop and act like a hive - the Genestealers.

You can have a broodlord with other 'nid units fighting for him etc.

Alternatively you can always claim a space battles resulted in brain damage for the hivemind of that particular splinter, or some disease / virus etc on X planet it went to harvest drove it crazy / changed its behaviour significantly, giving you damn near carte blanche to carve out what background you want.

So all the Hive tyrants up and killed the Hive Mind. Now there's one that likes to collect things, this one's a brony, that one wants to rebuild his empire, this one likes to wear women's clothes...etc

My little nids?

Tyranids are supposed to be alien and un-relatable, not splitting up into different personalities and empires like the new Necrons.

I personally love how the nids are. Remorseless, impossible to negotiate with, just an unrelenting wave of death. I think that that simplicity, that drive to sate an unquenchable hunger makes them great. Sure I don't play nids, but I have considered it on many an occasion simply for that wave of death aspect of them. Actually that is why I initially started Necrons over a year ago.

nomotog wrote:The lack of any personality or goals outside of eating it probably the reason they aren't the star of there own codex. Writing a story about nids is like writing a story about water.

Here I can't agree. Heck, humans are the heroes of the Alien movies, but I've always rooted for the beasts. Seeing xenomorphs butcher living things is pretty much the only appeal of AvP. Now imagine this taken to a galactic scale... There's just so much room to go nuts !

Marik Law wrote:They all start the same, their goals are always the same, and they all behave the same. To me, that's a horror movie villain, just a constant faceless evil that never dies. That may be fun to fight against, to me it isn't very fun to play as, as once you scratch the surface of what their all about that's pretty much it.

I think you hit the nail on the head. A faceless, relentless antagonist that instills unending horror. And that's precisely what many find charming about nids !
It seems to be at odds with your tastes, but now that I think of it, suppose there are non-locust nids around... Well, you wouldn't see them much on a gaming board, now would you ? For the same reason you never get to see Tau of the Earth or Water castes : they're not relevant on a battlefield if they're in business or farming.
That's not to say you can't toy with the idea of "deviant" tyranids. This thread even gave me a few ideas in this direction, but I need to re-read the codex to check the feasability.

I do think it would be nice to develop the Hivemind into an entity similar to the Overmind from Starcraft though. He had personality and a "villain" aura to him, but also retained his timeless entity/representation of the collective Zerg race vibe.

They're incredibly boring. Tyranids need some sort of personality besides old one eye, swarmlord and malan'tai.

This "consume consume consume" thing is just too bland.

Marik Law wrote:They all start the same, their goals are always the same, and they all behave the same. To me, that's a horror movie villain, just a constant faceless evil that never dies. That may be fun to fight against, to me it isn't very fun to play as, as once you scratch the surface of what their all about that's pretty much it.

Then you get it, and they're just not for you.

They actually talk about this at the start of the 4th edition codex. Tyranids are there for fans of sci fi/horror movie bad guys. Did you like the Xenomorphs in Aliens? Did you like the bugs in Starship Troopers? Do you want to be the faceless horrific horde that tries to overwhelm your opponent? Tyranids are for you.

You aren't the hero. You don't have heroes. You have small, medium and large sized bestial bugs that just want to tear your opponents heroes limb from limb.

If you don't want that, you won't enjoy playing Tyranids. Nothing wrong with it - I go on and off Tyranids. In 2nd edition, they were my army. In 3rd edition, I got bored with them and wanted something with heroes, and moved to Salamanders. Then I quit the hobby for a couple of years and got back into it, and went right back to Tyranids. I don't care that I don't have heroes. The fun comes from watching my friends face as my Hive Tyrant swoops down on its huge batlike wings and runs his Farseer through with its bonesword, shrugs, and flies off to kill something else.

Their fluff, along with their miniature range, makes them the most unique race in 40k. Hopefully they give Kelly the codex next time, and let him bring them back to where they used to be.

Hyd wrote:

nomotog wrote:The lack of any personality or goals outside of eating it probably the reason they aren't the star of there own codex. Writing a story about nids is like writing a story about water.

Here I can't agree. Heck, humans are the heroes of the Alien movies, but I've always rooted for the beasts. Seeing xenomorphs butcher living things is pretty much the only appeal of AvP. Now imagine this taken to a galactic scale... There's just so much room to go nuts !

Oh I didn't even think about xenomorphs. The alien campaign form AVP (remake) might be a good way to use the nids. Though they have personality not just mindless eating machines. (They don't even eat.) Your character has personalty, above average intelligence and a name.

nomotog wrote:

Hyd wrote:

nomotog wrote:The lack of any personality or goals outside of eating it probably the reason they aren't the star of there own codex. Writing a story about nids is like writing a story about water.

Here I can't agree. Heck, humans are the heroes of the Alien movies, but I've always rooted for the beasts. Seeing xenomorphs butcher living things is pretty much the only appeal of AvP. Now imagine this taken to a galactic scale... There's just so much room to go nuts !

Oh I didn't even think about xenomorphs. The alien campaign form AVP (remake) might be a good way to use the nids. Though they have personality not just mindless eating machines. (They don't even eat.) Your character has personalty, above average intelligence and a name.

And intelligent Tyranids that do their own thing are represented - Genestealers. They can even be the bulk of your army.

It doesn't change the fact that what the OP wants - individualistic traits to make them seek their own goals, is just not something Tyranids do. If you don't like them because of it - well, you don't have to like everything about everything in 40k. Just enjoy trying to beat the swarm rather than be the swarm.

Surtur wrote:So all the Hive tyrants up and killed the Hive Mind. Now there's one that likes to collect things, this one's a brony, that one wants to rebuild his empire, this one likes to wear women's clothes...etc

That made me chuckle

Surtur wrote:So all the Hive tyrants up and killed the Hive Mind. Now there's one that likes to collect things, this one's a brony, that one wants to rebuild his empire, this one likes to wear women's clothes...etc

This is a great post and indicates all that is wrong with the Newcrons. This sounds so absurd, and yet beyond exaggerations here (i.e. brony/women's clothes), it's basically what happened to the Necrons and why the "Tyranids need more characters" would be so bad.

I actually don't mind the Tyranid 'characters', because I see them more as one off mutations. Just look at the Mawlock - it's the Red Terror. It started as a one off in 3rd edition, disappeared in 4th edition, and reappeared as a general creature in 5th edition. It's actually a good example of how Tyranids evolve new strains.

Hey, lets make a new, snake-like creature that eats guys. Okay, it's successful. Pull it, refine it, mass produce it.

Old One Eye is an example of the Hive Mind experimenting with strain improvements - IIRC, Carnifexes couldn't take regeneration in 3rd edition. Old One Eye was the 'test case' for Carnifexes with regeneration. Seemed like a good idea. Throw it into the strain.

Parasite of Mortrex? Lets see how a ripper factory would work on the ground. Doom of Malan'tai? We're facing a highly psychic race. Lets make a Zoanthrope strain that takes advantage of that.

The Swarmlord is the only real outrider in that it doesn't make sense. It's a stress reacton to a difficult theatre, where they deploy it to take command 'on the ground' as it were, lead from the front, come up with new tactics. The problem is the hive mind is the collective consiousness of every Tyranid. It's already on the ground. it's everywhere any Tyranid is.

If they keep Tyranid 'special characters' like this, I can't see a real issue with them. They're not fundamentally changing Tyranids, and actually do fit the fluff (except the Swarmlord).

The thing Necrons had going against them is they had one codex worth of fluff, and it was very rudimentary when concerning the Necrons themselves. Tyranids have fluff dating back to rogue trader, and fundamentally changing an entire race that dates back through every edition to the very first isn't something they've really done.

IIRC there is only one Swarmlord, and it can appear in any Hive Fleet. It is essentially the Hive Mind's go-to-guy.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:IIRC there is only one Swarmlord, and it can appear in any Hive Fleet. It is essentially the Hive Mind's go-to-guy.

And that's the problem, and displays Cruddaces complete lack of comprehension of the Tyranids.

The Hive Mind doesn't need a 'go-to' guy. He's there, according to the fluff, to think creatively on the ground and develop tactics. The hive mind does this already. The hive mind is 'on the ground' all the time, since it is the collective psychic consiousness of every Tyranid. The hive mind already knows what every Tyranid knows, and can think and devise tactics and relay them via synapse creatures to the lesser creatures. The Swarmlords function is completely redundant.

Better fluff would have been making it a psychic monstrosity, a synaptic beacon that reaches far further than any other synapse unit (it already does a little), giving far greated control over units in the area. Basically a mini Dominatrix. But no, Cruddace had to shoe-horn in a face for the Swarm.

-Loki- wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Hyd wrote:

nomotog wrote:The lack of any personality or goals outside of eating it probably the reason they aren't the star of there own codex. Writing a story about nids is like writing a story about water.

Here I can't agree. Heck, humans are the heroes of the Alien movies, but I've always rooted for the beasts. Seeing xenomorphs butcher living things is pretty much the only appeal of AvP. Now imagine this taken to a galactic scale... There's just so much room to go nuts !

Oh I didn't even think about xenomorphs. The alien campaign form AVP (remake) might be a good way to use the nids. Though they have personality not just mindless eating machines. (They don't even eat.) Your character has personalty, above average intelligence and a name.

And intelligent Tyranids that do their own thing are represented - Genestealers. They can even be the bulk of your army.

It doesn't change the fact that what the OP wants - individualistic traits to make them seek their own goals, is just not something Tyranids do. If you don't like them because of it - well, you don't have to like everything about everything in 40k. Just enjoy trying to beat the swarm rather than be the swarm.

Ya, but genestealers are lame... They are too human in that they are humans. Maybe if they made the nids more like animals and less like robots.