Is the Tyranids lore "too boring"?

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**mynamelegend**

In my humble opinion, the Tyranid lore is solid: It's simple, easy to understand, appealing to many... but it direly needs ONE change. Just one.

Make them weaker lore-wise. Really.
I mean this, truly and seriously.
The entire "YOU ARE ALL SO DOOOOOOMED THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE CAN DO, SO DOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!" angle they have going just makes me roll my eyes.
Fine, we're all doomed. Explain why I should give a damn, then.

It's sort of like pre-5e Necrons, which had the exact same "THEY ARE WAKING UP AND YOU ARE DOOOOOOOOOOOMED" angle, which was also very dull and apathy-inducing. The change away from that was a huge plus.

If they focused more on the way each hive fleet so far has been powerful and dangerous BUT MANAGEABLE for whatever they face (be it Imperium or Tau or Orks), and less on 'THE ENTIRE GALAXY WILL BE EATEN AND NOBODY CAN STOP IT AND YOU ARE ALL DOOOOO-' (you get the point)...
It'd be a considerable improvement.

**-Loki-**

You just described the 5th edition codex. And why it's terrible.

All the 5th edition codex does is talk about how each of the hive fleets was destroyed, and they've ended up being significantly depowered. Going by the fluff in the 5th edition codex, they've become nothing more than an easily counterable galactic locust swarm.

I think they need to return Tyranids to their previous intergalactic horror 'your totally fethed' power, but change the focus of the fluff. This is where it's fallen flat recently.

Tyranids are based on sci fi horror movies. Shift the focus to the utterly alienness of the Tyranids, talk about how they adapt in depth (and give them an army list to match it like 4th edition), talk about how dangerous they are without talking on a galactic scale. I agree that hearing nothing but 'the Tyranids are coming and they're going to eat the galaxy' gets boring, but it's their thing they do.

That doesn't mean it has to be the focus of the book. They need to basically get a better writer for the next book.

**nomotog**

That's a good idea. Kind of narrow your focus on parts of the swarm rather then always looking at it like a whole. (Unless you mean something different then that.)

I think they could kind of play up the power of a lone nid. Let them mutate by themselves. (So like you can drop a one in the water and it will grow fins.) Then mention that even without the hivemind, each creature in the swarm has a deadly predatory intelligence.

**-Loki-**

Mutability of individual Tyranids is something the hive mind strictly controls though. They don't want units mutating by themselves - look at how they actively avoid reabsorbing Ymgarl genestealers. It's the job of the Norn Queens and Dominatrixes to alter the Tyranids between attacks.

But yeah, that's what I was talking about. Hearing about how powerful they are on a galactic scale is boring, because while it's Their Thing They Do, it's not overly interesting. Some of the best fluff has been about a unit of Catachan being stalked by a Lictor, or Adeptus Mechanicus checking out world post-invasion and finding a still living, regenerating Carnifex after the world had been hit by the by cyclonic torpedoes. Then calling in a lance strike to kill it.

The best fluff is all personal accounts of people against Tyranids, talking about things that make them terrifying to fight (being stalked by a Lictor, fighting Genestealers in corridors, finding a Carnifex that has survived fething exterminatus). These are the sorts of things Cruddace left out of the 5th edition book, and the fluff feels a lot poorer for it.

**mynamelegend**

I agree that focus on personal matters makes things more interesting.

I just think that "completely fethed" is just dull.

I compare it to The Ring vs The Grudge, japanese or western versions at your preference.
In The Ring, you are most likely fethed. Everyone before you was fethed. BUT there's a chance, however slim, that you can pull a survival off. Not even a win, you're not looking to kill Sadako here. Just SURVIVE her.
In The Grudge, you are 100% screwed, there is 0% chance for anyone to make it. No secret out. Nowhere to run or hide. Nothing.

Which of these is more interesting? Which of these makes for a meaningful struggle, and which of these makes for useless flailing?

That's my problem with "completely fethed" tyranid fluff, it tends to be piled on sufficiently thick that it makes the entire Imperium, and every Eldar colony, and even every Ork, look like complete idiots for not just shooting themselves in the head the minute they hear someone say the word "tyranid", because everyone is just that screwed.
...it really, REALLY is piled on rather thick, even someone who feels that "feth everyone else" is the tyranid hat (as opposed to "extremely dangerous alien locusts", which I always thought was their hat), has to agree on that.

Wouldn't the smart way to go at it be to try and make tyranid attacks look less 'all or nothing'? The way things are being written at the mo, there's very little room for the author to go in between "Then the tyranids ate everything, the end" and "Then every last stinking tyranid was burnt to a crisp, the end". Some ability for ongoing conflict that ISN'T just a death-march for the tyranids or their foes has to be possible.

**-Loki-**

mynamelegend wrote:Wouldn't the smart way to go at it be to try and make tyranid attacks look less 'all or nothing'?

No. Because again, it's What The Tyranids Do. It's what they've always done. They hit a world like a sledgehammer, and if you don't manage to mount a proper resistance, you evacuate or die. It admit, yes, it might be boring to some people. It's not to Tyranid players though, which is what matters.

However, I do agree it gets boring. The 5th edition fluff is nothing but descriptions of all or nothing attacks, which is why it feels so boring. I refer you, again, back to the previous codices. They have those all or nothing attacks, like Macragge, Ichar IV, Iyanden, etc. But it's broken up by individual accounts from different areas. Tech preists looking at the aftermath of an invasion, soldiers fighting various Tyranids, Magos Biologis looking at various strains and trying to come up with a 'family tree' for the Tyranids.

There's ways to keep the 'all of nothing' type attacks and still make them interesting. They just need a better writer.

**mynamelegend**

The clever problem with only ever letting tyranids do "all or nothing attacks where everyone gets eaten" is that, uhm...
...there are basically two ways this can end up.
Either 40k ends and Tyranids Win Everything, pack up people, it was a good 25 years while it lasted, which is kinda the angle they keep trying to push for.
Or the Tyranid hive fleets are reduced to inerstellar Whack-A-Mole. Which is kinda the angle 5e's codex is going for.
Neither of these is even remotely interesting.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thing is, the large scale picture for tyranids really IS quite boring, and I'd love to hear if you have a solution to that, Loki?

"Focus on the small picture" is a good way to make the fluff fun to read, but it's also a sidestepping of the real problem.
'The large scale tyranid fluff is dull reading'

That tyranid players want to read about how they're totally gonna destroy everything you guys is one thing. That nobody wants to read about such extremely one-sided conflicts is another, easily proven by 5e's codex, where the shoe is on the other foot and NOBODY likes it.

**-Loki-**

mynamelegend wrote:Thing is, the large scale picture for tyranids really IS quite boring, and I'd love to hear if you have a solution to that, Loki?

I don't have a solution for a boring 'big picture' because I don't find it boring.

I find excessive references to it boring. If, like previous codices, they sprinkled smaller scale individual accounts into it, the 5th edition fluff wouldn't be as bad.

But again, you'll either like or not like established fluff. it doesn't mean it needs to change if you don't like it, it just means you don't like it. There's plenty of people out there who like Tyranid fluff, even after small changes they've made since Rogue Trader. Tyranids have always been the galactic threat. I'm tired of typing it, so it'll likely be the last time - being the galactic threat is what Tyranids do. It's why they were written into the fluff.

You don't have to like it. I don't like the way Tau are written. I'm not going to step on Tau players shoes saying their fluff isn't grimdark enough for 40k and they should be completely changhed, because I know Tau players like their fluff. It also doesn't mean you have to use their fluff if you don't like it - come up with a reason for your hive fleet to be separate from the hive mind and have 'gone rogue'. Official fluff, however, is fine, it just needs someone better to write it.

**mynamelegend**

Fair enough. We agree to disagree.
My response to the thread's original answer remains the same.
"Is the Tyranid lore too boring? Yes. Yes it is."
Have a pleasant day, folks!

**Void__Dragon**

Tyranids aren't the greatest threat in the setting, they never were. Chaos is. For all the "YER fethed AGAINST TYRANIDS" gak, that has nothing on the impending doom of Chaos.

And IMHO? If you don't want to read about implacable alien horrors that will eventually destroy the realm of man, you just don't like 40k. 40k is, despite how OTT and ridiculous the setting is, ultimately, a Cosmic Horror Story, in the same vein as Lovecraft.

Anyway, even though I am not really a fan of the Tyranids, I don't really think that the old fluff should be changed, really, I have had GW tell me that the Necron fluff I liked never happened, so couldn't wish that without being a hypocrite. It should just be expanded, built off of the original themes to add greater depth and interest, with the occasional acceptable retcon (Or rather, another account of the same story). Unfortunately, Cruddace wasn't really great at doing that.

Also, as for the Swarmlord, personally, I just like to think of it as a particularly powerful catalyst for the Hive Mind, and the separate "persona" that it and all Hive Tyrants now have is in itself an adaption the Hive Mind creates, the Swarmlord is brought on when that persona, channeling the vast sentience of the Hive Mind, is necessary. That is just what I like to think though, I am aware that that is not truly evident in the codex.

**mynamelegend**

I was going to simply leave the topic, but I have to reply here.
"cosmic horror story" does not mean "No way to even try to halt the advance of evil".

Mountains of Madness, Lovecraft himself, big o'l Cthulhu, doesn't get more cosmic horror than that.
How's it end?
Cthulhu gets his head run over by a steamboat and takes a dirt nap for another few centuries.

"Cosmic horror" does not automatically mean "give up", you can fight and hold back the tide, and if you can hold it back another day, you can keep holding it back another day. Eventually a week will have passed, then a month. Before you know it you'll eventually hold it back a year. And eventually ten. And eventually...

...point is, when the big old original Cosmic Horror of Unstoppable Evil can be, well, stopped by a steamboat?
I figure that being able to at least draw a line in the sand and maintain status quo ain't that unreasonable.

Peace.

**Void__Dragon**

mynamelegend wrote:I was going to simply leave the topic, but I have to reply here.
"cosmic horror story" does not mean "No way to even try to halt the advance of evil".

Mountains of Madness, Lovecraft himself, big o'l Cthulhu, doesn't get more cosmic horror than that.
How's it end?
Cthulhu gets his head run over by a steamboat and takes a dirt nap for another few centuries.

"Cosmic horror" does not automatically mean "give up", you can fight and hold back the tide, and if you can hold it back another day, you can keep holding it back another day. Eventually a week will have passed, then a month. Before you know it you'll eventually hold it back a year. And eventually ten. And eventually...

...point is, when the big old original Cosmic Horror of Unstoppable Evil can be, well, stopped by a steamboat?
I figure that being able to at least draw a line in the sand and maintain status quo ain't that unreasonable.

Peace.

Nothing you said at all contradicts a single thing I said.

You can delay the cosmic horror, just like you can delay the Tyranids, or Chaos, or the old Necrons.

But the point was that they, especially Chaos, could not be destroyed, and one of them will win in the end.

Also, fyi, Cthulhu was weakened due to being woken up by some dicks in a steamboat before it was meant to be woken. In Lovecraftian canon, humanity is still doomed, what form that doom will take is arguable, but them being doomed is not.

You're right, a Cosmic Horror Story does not discount the possibility of trying to stop the Cosmic Horror. Notice how the Imperium does try to stop them.

Chaos epitomises this in ways the Tyranids can not. Its resources are infinite. The Imperium's are not.

**-Loki-**

mynamelegend wrote:...point is, when the big old original Cosmic Horror of Unstoppable Evil can be, well, stopped by a steamboat?
I figure that being able to at least draw a line in the sand and maintain status quo ain't that unreasonable.

But Tyranids can be stopped. The majority of Behemoth and Kraken were stopped, reducing both to splinter fleets. Other minor hive fleets were stopped entirely. Part of Leviathan has been redirected into a semi-permanent war with a large Ork empire, though to be fair, Leviathan is the biggest fleet yet and most of it is still rampaging around the galaxy. They do unimaginably massive amounts of damage when they do hit a system, but they aren't unstoppable. This isn't new either - this goes back to at least Titan Legions and 2nd edition 40k. They were just written incredibly poorly in 5th edition.

The issue isn't if hive fleets can be stopped. The issue is we don't know what else is coming, and Nid fans tend to like the theory that the current hive fleets are part of a much larger fleet 'prodding' the galaxy to see where it is weak. That doesn't meant it's official.

**nomotog**

The thing wrong with there big picture is that it's very binary. They die or the planet dies with nothing in between the two. They can loosen that up a little add more victory loss types.

**blazinpsycho&typhooni**

-Loki- wrote:
mynamelegend wrote:...point is, when the big old original Cosmic Horror of Unstoppable Evil can be, well, stopped by a steamboat?
I figure that being able to at least draw a line in the sand and maintain status quo ain't that unreasonable.

But Tyranids can be stopped. The majority of Behemoth and Kraken were stopped, reducing both to splinter fleets. Other minor hive fleets were stopped entirely. Part of Leviathan has been redirected into a semi-permanent war with a large Ork empire, though to be fair, Leviathan is the biggest fleet yet. They do unimaginably massive amounts of damage when they do hit a system, but they aren't unstoppable. This isn't new either - this goes back to at least Titan Legions and 2nd edition 40k. They were just written incredibly poorly in 5th edition.

The issue isn't if hive fleets can be stopped. The issue is we don't know what else is coming, and Nid fans tend to like the theory that the current hive fleets are part of a much larger fleet 'prodding' the galaxy to see where it is weak. That doesn't meant it's official.

That's the bit of 'nid fluff I enjoy. The belief that all these devastating fleets are just scouting parties for a giant armada testing the galaxy. That's what the 'nids are for. Just complete terror at the fact that in the defense against them, countless millions will be lost, as well as a couple planets. It's that impending devastation that makes them interesting.

Of course in a universe full of impending dooms and death and all that jazz, I guess you can easily tire from something as simple as the tyranid drive for biomass. With all these double plots, hidden agendas, backstabbing, and secret alliances, that envelop many races, it's easy to get "bored" with something as simple as om noming. But so what? If everything involved some sort of back story or intention then wouldn't that get boring as well?

Variety is the spice of life!

To make something similar to something else in an attempt to make it more interesting only helps in the short term! Eventually things will be the same and boring!

I think I might have contradicted myself somewhere.... but i'm not sure...

**Void__Dragon**

I think of the Tyranids and the old Necrons as basically factions that should have stories focusing on the reactions of other races to them, rather than the factions themselves.

Keeps them enigmatic, alien, frightening.

**-Loki-**

Well, you contradicted yourself in saying that variety is the spice of life and Tyranids are better with no variety.

But, again, that's part of what makes Tyranids what they are. Against the backdrop of Eldar schemeing thousands of years in advance, Dark Eldar backstabbing each other for power, Orks travelling around fighting for the love of fighting - mostly each other, the Imperiums endless machinations internally as well as against others, Chaos being mankinds eternal foe corrupting from within... Tyranids provide a clear backdrop.

They're an enemy of everyone, don't squabble with each other, don't scheme and just don't care. They're the universes super predator, and they're there to eat you. Some people like playing that kind of force, some people like fighting that kind of force, some people don't like it at all. And that's how it goes for every race in 40k.

That said, Tyranids have a lot of history with 40k. They go back to rogue trader as an actual race, and have more or less stayed the same over 5 editions, with small changes here and there, mostly refining them, and are one of the better selling xeno races. Changing them isn't a good idea - just look at the backlash introducing the Swarmlord caused.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:I think of the Tyranids and the old Necrons as basically factions that should have stories focusing on the reactions of other races to them, rather than the factions themselves.

Keeps them enigmatic, alien, frightening.

Basically this. Cruddace wrote the fluff in the 5th edition book from an outside view - but outside to both Tyranids and their enemies. That's not how you write Tyranid fluff. You keep it squarely focused on the Imperium looking at them, trying to figure them out. This boosts the alien horror of them without looking particularly at the galactic scale of their invasion.

**blazinpsycho&typhooni**

-Loki- wrote:Well, you contradicted yourself in saying that variety is the spice of life and Tyranids are better with no variety.

But, again, that's part of what makes Tyranids what they are. Against the backdrop of Eldar schemeing thousands of years in advance, Dark Eldar backstabbing each other for power, Orks travelling around fighting for the love of fighting - mostly each other, the Imperiums endless machinations internally as well as against others, Chaos being mankinds eternal foe corrupting from within... Tyranids provide a clear backdrop.

They're an enemy of everyone, don't squabble with each other, don't scheme and just don't care. They're the universes super predator, and they're there to eat you. Some people like playing that kind of force, some people like fighting that kind of force, some people don't like it at all. And that's how it goes for every race in 40k.

That said, Tyranids have a lot of history with 40k. They go back to rogue trader as an actual race, and have more or less stayed the same over 5 editions, with small changes here and there, mostly refining them, and are one of the better selling xeno races. Changing them isn't a good idea - just look at the backlash introducing the Swarmlord caused.

Dammit I went too far... I was just trying to say stop making the tyranids like everyone else.
But I like your explanation better

I actually don't mind the Swarmlord but I can see why people would be angered.

**Void__Dragon**

-Loki- wrote:Basically this. Cruddace wrote the fluff in the 5th edition book from an outside view - but outside to both Tyranids and their enemies. That's not how you write Tyranid fluff. You keep it squarely focused on the Imperium looking at them, trying to figure them out. This boosts the alien horror of them without looking particularly at the galactic scale of their invasion.

Yeah it basically read like "This is a bunch of stuff that happened, boy aren't the Tyranids scary?" It felt really impersonal and dull, didn't convey the Tyranid menace, rather, it read like what it was, just a list of things the Tyranids have done. The only real exception I can think of in the codex is Deathleaper.

And, to further counter "Tyranids are too invincible", it also had derpy gak like Maugen Ra beating an entire Tyranid invasion by his lonesome.

Granted, this is Maugen Ra, the guy who jumps into the Eye of Terror, picks up his missing Craftworld, beats Abaddon down with it, and then jumps out of the Eye of Terror with his Craftworld on his back.

**Kaldor**

Reanimator wrote:This blacker than black moral stance is something not found in any of the other races which, funnily enough all display human traits in one form or another. Being able to play as as the controlling force of such a tide of monsters is great because you get to be the bad guy. If you allowed some compromise in their ethos it would, to me at least, completely undo the core aspect of their appeal.

I agree with this. Too many of the other races are just variations of specific human emotions. The unknowable, extra-galactic nature of the Nids gives us something different.

**Mordiggian**

mynamelegend wrote:I was going to simply leave the topic, but I have to reply here.
"cosmic horror story" does not mean "No way to even try to halt the advance of evil".

Mountains of Madness, Lovecraft himself, big o'l Cthulhu, doesn't get more cosmic horror than that.
How's it end?
Cthulhu gets his head run over by a steamboat and takes a dirt nap for another few centuries.

"Cosmic horror" does not automatically mean "give up", you can fight and hold back the tide, and if you can hold it back another day, you can keep holding it back another day. Eventually a week will have passed, then a month. Before you know it you'll eventually hold it back a year. And eventually ten. And eventually...

...point is, when the big old original Cosmic Horror of Unstoppable Evil can be, well, stopped by a steamboat?
I figure that being able to at least draw a line in the sand and maintain status quo ain't that unreasonable.

Peace.

That would be "The Call of Cthulhu" rather than "At the Mountains of Madness." Cthulhu is dispersed by being rammed by the boat, but as the sailor looks back, it is reforming. He has been imprisoned again, otherwise the world would be shrieking with madness, to paraphrase the end of the story. But his agents are free to spread madness and murder as they will.

Tyranids, at their best, feel like a force of nature, like a fire. While the other races scheme and plot and bicker, the fire is burning closer and closer.

Invincible? Clearly not. No more than any other faction. But a threat to all of them.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Mordiggian wrote:
mynamelegend wrote:I was going to simply leave the topic, but I have to reply here.
"cosmic horror story" does not mean "No way to even try to halt the advance of evil".

Mountains of Madness, Lovecraft himself, big o'l Cthulhu, doesn't get more cosmic horror than that.
How's it end?
Cthulhu gets his head run over by a steamboat and takes a dirt nap for another few centuries.

"Cosmic horror" does not automatically mean "give up", you can fight and hold back the tide, and if you can hold it back another day, you can keep holding it back another day. Eventually a week will have passed, then a month. Before you know it you'll eventually hold it back a year. And eventually ten. And eventually...

...point is, when the big old original Cosmic Horror of Unstoppable Evil can be, well, stopped by a steamboat?
I figure that being able to at least draw a line in the sand and maintain status quo ain't that unreasonable.

Peace.

That would be "The Call of Cthulhu" rather than "At the Mountains of Madness." Cthulhu is dispersed by being rammed by the boat, but as the sailor looks back, it is reforming. He has been imprisoned again, otherwise the world would be shrieking with madness, to paraphrase the end of the story. But his agents are free to spread madness and murder as they will.

Tyranids, at their best, feel like a force of nature, like a fire. While the other races scheme and plot and bicker, the fire is burning closer and closer.

Invincible? Clearly not. No more than any other faction. But a threat to all of them.

Indeed.
Furthermore, Lovecraft's antagonists are always labelled as 'evil' from a human point of view. However, when actually looked at, it's hinted that the Old Ones, the Cthulhu -spawn and all the other merry little monsters are no ore evil than humans are, but are simply acting for different goals than their lesser worshippers. I can't remember the story, now, but there is one in which the humans who worship a being fail to serve it correctly, simply because they don't understand what it wants and the being itself cannot properly convey it's wishes to such unevolved minds.
In that sense, the 'Nids are both like a natural disaster (a nice metaphor, by the way) and an unknowable entity in the traditional Lovecraftian sense, in that as much as the Imperium attempts to ascribe an easily-understandable motive to the swarm, it can't really explain why it does the things it does. After all, it might well want biomass to feed itself and grow ever more advanced, but why?

**Totalwar1402**

Marik Law wrote:With the recent make-over of the Necrons and the reasoning behind such being that the armies were difficult to really customize and give the player a good feel of uniqueness and independence, it got me to thinking about another army which suffers from the same problem in their lore (though albeit maybe not in their rules) and it's led me to one question: are the Tyranids boring lore-wise?

While they are a cool looking army and there's lots of room to customize their colours and biomorphs, lore-wise there really isn't a lot that can set your army apart from other Tyranid armies as they all have the same drives and objectives and, not saying this to be offensive or anything, they tend to be fairly mindless in their all-consuming goals.

I thought about this problem long and hard, the only conclusion I could come up with is the "death" of the all-controlling hive mind and having the "fleets" controlled by some sort of hive individual (Norn Queens or something else). To me, this could open up much different behavior between the fleets of Tyranids. Where as some fleets could continue to act like the current Tyranids do (like locusts), some may seek to be less destructive and use conquered planets to grow and harvest supplies to fuel the on-going war-efforts (much like some species of ants or termites which grow fungus in their lair to consume), where as others may be open to cooperation or even just negotiation with other species. It would allow each player to make their hive/fleet their own without just having them fall into the territory of "consume and move on."

The reason I post this here is because I wanted to hear other people's constructive takes on the Tyranids. Do you think they're lore is restrictive or boring? Would they benefit more (or less) from the player being able to more freely give his hive its own personality and goals?

Discuss.

I think nids benefit from being the only species that is the great alien threat, a monster army that is 'pure' in its intent to destroy you much like the alien in the film Alien. Adding morals and reason or a goal beyond consuming everything in the galaxy would just risk 'humanizing' the tyranids. That was okay for Necrons since necrons were people and the whole turned into machines but regret it is a fair sci fi cliche to use. But, no, it wouldn't be grimdark if the swarm thought like that. You can easily differentiate your hive fleet by colour scheme. For background you can create a hive fleet that focuses on a particular adaptation, stealer, heavy biomorph, lots of MC etc. I also usually also try to concieve of my hive fleets background through the eyes of others and those who try to stop them. Much like the background in the nid codex's itself.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

mynamelegend wrote:In my humble opinion, the Tyranid lore is solid: It's simple, easy to understand, appealing to many... but it direly needs ONE change. Just one.

Make them weaker lore-wise. Really.
I mean this, truly and seriously.
The entire "YOU ARE ALL SO DOOOOOOMED THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE CAN DO, SO DOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!" angle they have going just makes me roll my eyes.
Fine, we're all doomed. Explain why I should give a damn, then.

It's sort of like pre-5e Necrons, which had the exact same "THEY ARE WAKING UP AND YOU ARE DOOOOOOOOOOOMED" angle, which was also very dull and apathy-inducing. The change away from that was a huge plus.

If they focused more on the way each hive fleet so far has been powerful and dangerous BUT MANAGEABLE for whatever they face (be it Imperium or Tau or Orks), and less on 'THE ENTIRE GALAXY WILL BE EATEN AND NOBODY CAN STOP IT AND YOU ARE ALL DOOOOO-' (you get the point)...
It'd be a considerable improvement.

By that notion Aliens was a terrible film because the aliens don't talk to you and just since they pose a threat isn't enough for you to give a damn. If you do that, you humanize with them. The verse needs some monsters.

Are you saying we should make the chaos daemons into victims? They need to feed on the souls of mortal otherwise they will just fade away into nothingness...

making nids a threat, much like making the Tau an expansionist race adds a defining feature of the army and places it in the lore. You suggest just chucking every army into a barrel and saying there you go.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Loki- wrote:Mutability of individual Tyranids is something the hive mind strictly controls though. They don't want units mutating by themselves - look at how they actively avoid reabsorbing Ymgarl genestealers. It's the job of the Norn Queens and Dominatrixes to alter the Tyranids between attacks.

But yeah, that's what I was talking about. Hearing about how powerful they are on a galactic scale is boring, because while it's Their Thing They Do, it's not overly interesting. Some of the best fluff has been about a unit of Catachan being stalked by a Lictor, or Adeptus Mechanicus checking out world post-invasion and finding a still living, regenerating Carnifex after the world had been hit by the by cyclonic torpedoes. Then calling in a lance strike to kill it.

The best fluff is all personal accounts of people against Tyranids, talking about things that make them terrifying to fight (being stalked by a Lictor, fighting Genestealers in corridors, finding a Carnifex that has survived fething exterminatus). These are the sorts of things Cruddace left out of the 5th edition book, and the fluff feels a lot poorer for it.

Well, yes, all codexes went to a third person narrative to make it seem less Imperial focused. For nids this was probably not a good idea since much of their vibe derived from inside references to Aliens/Starshiptroopers which need another audience to watch it happen. So I agree with you on that but its not because the content is any different.

**-Loki-**

Totalwar1402 wrote:Well, yes, all codexes went to a third person narrative to make it seem less Imperial focused. For nids this was probably not a good idea since much of their vibe derived from inside references to Aliens/Starshiptroopers which need another audience to watch it happen. So I agree with you on that but its not because the content is any different.

The content is different though. The earlier codices had the broad overview of the invasion as a whole from a third person, but the alien terror came from the individual accounts. The individual accounts add to the third person overview. It's like 'wow, if those Catachan, who excel at jungle warfare, are being murdered by a lone Lictor, what's going on on those hundreds of other entire planets being invaded?'.

The 5th edition codex only has the 3rd person overview, none of the personal accounts. Added to that, it's not a well written third person account. if you put bullet points next to the paragraphs in the 'stories' for each hive fleet, they actually do read like a segmented bullet point list. As I've said many times now - the writing is the issue, not the actual fluff. It needs individual accounts to add to what's going on on the galactic scale.

As for the lack of Imperial focus, this is a book that needs it. You can't write good Tyranid fluff from a a point of view outside of the victim. You end up with the boring fluff we gotwith the 5th edition book.

**yevix**

Here is one way to make them both weak and have more personality, each tyranid fleet is a personality from the hive mind, each one has its own goals and agenda (like a human who has a multiple personality disorder).

This make nids more personalised, each fleet is its own mind in a way and at the same time weakens them...since they can now fight themselves (2 personalities don't like each other) that way slowing down their powerful swarm of death and it doesnt affect the whole alien swarm vibe people love.

**-Loki-**

So basically you want them to Newcron the Tyranids?

Please no.

**Void__Dragon**

I don't particularly care for that idea.

"Personality" is not really something the Tyranids need, rather it is anathema to their purpose in the setting.

**CoI**

Tyranids need to stay a monolithic, unknowable evil. Hunger personified. You want to explain why they're fighting each other on the tabletop? it's easy, the hivemind wants to see which force is more effective and/or efficient. They're going to be rendered down into biomass again anyways, why not?
But I liked the 'WE'RE DOOOOOOOOOMED' aspect of both the Necrons and 'Nids. Because like so many other factions it relied on so much. With the 'nids it's a case of if we don't stop them we're doomed. With the Necrons it was if they all wake up we're doomed. With orks it's if they ever join together as a race we're doomed ect.
Not knowing much about the 'nids are part of the appeal. No it isn't boring. Quite the contrary. They're terrifying in the extreme. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be bought. They can't be intimidated or any of the usual methods of dealing with a threat. It's kill or be killed. If you're lucky you can redirect them somewhere else to buy yourself time, but that's dangerous. They don't need personality, they are One. They are the living claw of the hivemind doing it's unknowable bidding. The only thing we know is that they feed, and where they attack they leave nothing but useless rock.
They were balanced by the necrons before IMO. In fact the only real threat to each race was the other. Pure ordered evil vs Unending hunger. Now... the necrons might try and negotiate, or try to collect the head of a Swarmlord

**yevix**

Guys which ever way you play it unless nids are getting some kind of personality for each fleet, they are a boring race, they have no great fluff, they seem like cannon fodder for all the other races, they have no goal or plan and their current plan is stupid (eat everything, how original), they have no heroes no special characters and this is just a small list of things.

Just think about it in long term, what happens if nids do win and eat everything what then? will the nids start fighting each other, unless they have some sorts of personality the nids wont ever fight each other (why would you attack yourself)

ps - when I say personality I don't mean each fleet is a different person its still the hive mind but more crazy, imagine the borg from star trek but they have no queen mind or head mind ,they are always fighting for the leaders spot so each fleet is like a different part of the hive mind.

For gods sake the original Nids had slaves in previous editions.

Even chaos has at least a goal, turn the material worlds into chaos worlds.....nids are just "yea lets just kill everything and see what happens" even typical locust swarms of earth don't do stupid stuff like that.

**Xyptc**

yevix wrote:Guys which ever way you play it unless nids are getting some kind of personality for each fleet, they are a boring race, they have no great fluff, they seem like cannon fodder for all the other races, they have no goal or plan and their current plan is stupid (eat everything, how original), they have no heroes no special characters and this is just a small list of things.

Just think about it in long term, what happens if nids do win and eat everything what then? will the nids start fighting each other, unless they have some sorts of personality the nids wont ever fight each other (why would you attack yourself)

ps - when I say personality I don't mean each fleet is a different person its still the hive mind but more crazy, imagine the borg from star trek but they have no queen mind or head mind ,they are always fighting for the leaders spot so each fleet is like a different part of the hive mind.

For gods sake the original Nids had slaves in previous editions.

Even chaos has at least a goal, turn the material worlds into chaos worlds.....nids are just "yea lets just kill everything and see what happens" even typical locust swarms of earth don't do stupid stuff like that.

So you're saying that unless something has human-comparable personality and motive, it's boring? I went to visit a rather beautiful waterfall in the middle of some mountains in Scotland last year, with a ruined abbey built into the cliff face around it. It was awesome, interesting and generally pretty impressive. It didn't have a personality though, and I couldn't ask it what it planned to do in the future... so I should have found it boring?

Something doesn't have to have a personality, or individuality, to be interesting. The Tyranids are far closer to my waterfall than they are to any other race in WH40k.

Based on your post, you simply don't find them very appealing. That's okay, not everyone gels with the facless alien horror. That doesn't mean that they are "boring" though.