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rigeld2 wrote:RP/EL place the model in kind of a limbo - they're still part of the unit, but not on the board.

Once they fail EL/RP rolls, they're gone - which is why if you lose the Orb in Movement, you don't have it for Shooting/Assault.

Please support this statement since you are insisting on some interpretation that makes a dead model still part of a unit. A simpler explanation would be that the wargear Res Orb is a specific exception to a general rule that dead models can't effect living models, however by all means, please offer some proof of of your statements.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:RP/EL place the model in kind of a limbo - they're still part of the unit, but not on the board.

Once they fail EL/RP rolls, they're gone - which is why if you lose the Orb in Movement, you don't have it for Shooting/Assault.

Please support this statement since you are insisting on some interpretation that makes a dead model still part of a unit. A simpler explanation would be that the wargear Res Orb is a specific exception to a general rule that dead models can't effect living models, however by all means, please offer some proof of of your statements.

The RP/EL rules themselves. They are added back to their units, not the units that they left or other similar wording.
Or are the RP/EL rules also exceptions?

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:RP/EL place the model in kind of a limbo - they're still part of the unit, but not on the board.

Once they fail EL/RP rolls, they're gone - which is why if you lose the Orb in Movement, you don't have it for Shooting/Assault.

Please support this statement since you are insisting on some interpretation that makes a dead model still part of a unit. A simpler explanation would be that the wargear Res Orb is a specific exception to a general rule that dead models can't effect living models, however by all means, please offer some proof of of your statements.

The RP/EL rules themselves. They are added back to their units, not the units that they left or other similar wording.
Or are the RP/EL rules also exceptions?

I agree with this. If the dead model (in a Necron's case) wasn't still part of its unit, then the wording for RP wouldn't make sense. It doesn't say "joins", "rejoins", "attaches" or anything. It simply says "placed in coherency with a model from its unit."

If it doesn't have a unit, then where do you place it?

puma713 wrote:I agree with this.

I immediately change my opinion. This insult cannot stand!

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:I agree with this.

I immediately change my opinion. This insult cannot stand!

Of course, rigeld, now you have to back up your new position.

Happyjew wrote:Of course, rigeld, now you have to back up your new position.

... crap. Okay, I fold. Full house though!

I tend to think of models/units as existing in one of two states.

1.) Out of Play
2.) In Play

In general 'out of play' models are not considered to be part of the unit (if the unit is still present on the table). There are exceptions for this, the most notable being the Necron FAQ for the Res Orb.

As to the question of RP/EL counters, I would say that the model the counter is associated with would still be considered 'out of play'. My only concern is the counter 'in play'. Once the counter is resolved, I am allowed to pick up an appropriate model that is out of play and return it to play. That doesn't have to mean that the model I picked up is still a part of the unit.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

As to the question of RP/EL counters, I would say that the model the counter is associated with would still be considered 'out of play'. My only concern is the counter 'in play'. Once the counter is resolved, I am allowed to pick up an appropriate model that is out of play and return it to play. That doesn't have to mean that the model I picked up is still a part of the unit.

-Yad

No, but the counter representing that particular model was.

If the models are not members of the unit, please define "it's unit" with respect to RP/EL.

You don't have to agree with what I've said, but your disagreement needs to make sense. If they are not considered part of the unit, what unit do they rejoin?

rigeld2 wrote:If the models are not members of the unit, please define "it's unit" with respect to RP/EL.

You don't have to agree with what I've said, but your disagreement needs to make sense. If they are not considered part of the unit, what unit do they rejoin?

From EL "If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play, with a single wound, in coherency with that unit..."

You see, it says "that unit", not "it's unit." Your argument is not supported by the RAW.

Please provide an actual rules quote if you disagree.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:If the models are not members of the unit, please define "it's unit" with respect to RP/EL.

You don't have to agree with what I've said, but your disagreement needs to make sense. If they are not considered part of the unit, what unit do they rejoin?

From EL "If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play, with a single wound, in coherency with that unit..."

You see, it says "that unit", not "it's unit." Your argument is not supported by the RAW.

Please provide an actual rules quote if you disagree.

Please note that I also referred to RP, and the rules quote provided previously said "its unit".
EL doesn't "rejoin" or refer to "its/his" unit anywhere?

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:If the models are not members of the unit, please define "it's unit" with respect to RP/EL.

You don't have to agree with what I've said, but your disagreement needs to make sense. If they are not considered part of the unit, what unit do they rejoin?

From EL "If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play, with a single wound, in coherency with that unit..."

You see, it says "that unit", not "it's unit." Your argument is not supported by the RAW.

Please provide an actual rules quote if you disagree.

Please note that I also referred to RP, and the rules quote provided previously said "its unit".
EL doesn't "rejoin" or refer to "its/his" unit anywhere?

No, EL doesn't rejoin or refer to "it's unit" anywhere. Surprisingly its almost as if this very question was considered when writing the rules.
The RP roll is made for a counter that was attached to the unit to count how many casualties it had. Even in this case it only mentions "the unit" until the rule is referring to a model that has successfully been brought back.

That previous quote you mention is referring to a model that passed its RP roll. Therefore its about a living model, not a dead one.

Nemesor Dave wrote:That quote is referring to a model that passed its RP roll. Therefore its about a living model, not a dead one.

Great!
So the model dies, its counter is placed.
What unit does the model represented by the counter belong to when it stands back up?
Obviously the living model "knows" what unit its a member of. Because it's there - its buddies are all chilling nearby.
The dead model that (apparently) is not a member of any unit *must* know what unit it needs to stand back up in coherency with.


You know, I'll just drop it. Not having the ability to reference the rules, and just going by what is posted + FAQs isn't working, and is just serving to piss me off.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:On con trair.

Ork mob rule. I asks for how many models are in the unit. Doesn't ask alive or dead or hoe many it started with.

So at some point in time models are removed from the unit.

Usually due to rfpaac.

Any one find rules for any of these arguments.

I just knew this was easter egg hunting.
That's why I asked for context.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:If the models are not members of the unit, please define "it's unit" with respect to RP/EL.

You don't have to agree with what I've said, but your disagreement needs to make sense. If they are not considered part of the unit, what unit do they rejoin?

From EL "If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play, with a single wound, in coherency with that unit..."

You see, it says "that unit", not "it's unit." Your argument is not supported by the RAW.

Please provide an actual rules quote if you disagree.

First of all the rule that was being quoted were from RP, not EL. Secondly, in respect to this rule, EL functions exactly the same way. Look at your own quote:

"If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play, with a single wound, in coherency with that unit as explained in Reanimation Protocols."

What this is saying is this:

RP: You join the unit you are a part of ("its unit").
EL: You join the unit you are attached to ("that unit" [that you had joined]). If you aren't attached to a unit, there are others rules for that. Otherwise, no matter when you died, you would never need the "if a model had joined" clause. You would always stand up outside of the unit. The quote even references RP.

Nothing about dying removes you from the unit in respect to Necrons. You keep asking for rules regarding this, but could you give us the page number of the rule you're referencing that gives the IC permission to become unattached when he dies? Because its not under the IC rules.

But then if EL worked "exactly" like RP, when you are told to remove all counters from a unit that falls back, that would include EL tokens.

Happyjew wrote:But then if EL worked "exactly" like RP, when you are told to remove all counters from a unit that falls back, that would include EL tokens.

I didn't say the entire rule was worded "exactly" like RP. I said that one sentence in the EL rule functioned "exactly" like another sentence in the RP rule does.

Edit: I see how what I posted could be misconstrued as referencing the entire rule.

What, how you roll for EL?

Happyjew wrote:What, how you roll for EL?

*sigh*

About whether or not a model is removed from a unit when it dies. It is obvious that it is not in RP, because the model is forced to attach to "its unit". Nemesor Dave was suggesting that EL gets around this because it references "that unit", but EL works the same way, otherwise, you would never need the clause for returning to the unit you are attached to.

puma, I'm messing with you. Now that super thread is locked, I'm bored.

Happyjew wrote:puma, I'm messing with you. Now that super thread is locked, I'm bored.

puma713 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:What, how you roll for EL?

*sigh*

About whether or not a model is removed from a unit when it dies. It is obvious that it is not in RP, because the model is forced to attach to "its unit". Nemesor Dave was suggesting that EL gets around this because it references "that unit", but EL works the same way, otherwise, you would never need the clause for returning to the unit you are attached to.

From EL
"If the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendly units that it is eligible to join, it automatically joins one of those units( your choice)."

So, in this case, which unit is "it's unit" since it can join both? Can a model be part of two units at the same time?

Neither, because while removed as a casualty, models do not belong to units. EL tokens also do not belong to any unit.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:What, how you roll for EL?

*sigh*

About whether or not a model is removed from a unit when it dies. It is obvious that it is not in RP, because the model is forced to attach to "its unit". Nemesor Dave was suggesting that EL gets around this because it references "that unit", but EL works the same way, otherwise, you would never need the clause for returning to the unit you are attached to.

From EL
"If the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendly units that it is eligible to join, it automatically joins one of those units( your choice)."

So, in this case, which unit is "it's unit" since it can join both? Can a model be part of two units at the same time?

Neither, because while removed as a casualty, models do not belong to units. EL tokens also do not belong to any unit.

That's an argument for EL ICs, not for normal EL models, since they would not be eligible to join both.
So how does a non IC EL model remember its unit?

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:What, how you roll for EL?

*sigh*

About whether or not a model is removed from a unit when it dies. It is obvious that it is not in RP, because the model is forced to attach to "its unit". Nemesor Dave was suggesting that EL gets around this because it references "that unit", but EL works the same way, otherwise, you would never need the clause for returning to the unit you are attached to.

From EL
"If the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendly units that it is eligible to join, it automatically joins one of those units( your choice)."

So, in this case, which unit is "it's unit" since it can join both? Can a model be part of two units at the same time?

Neither, because while removed as a casualty, models do not belong to units. EL tokens also do not belong to any unit.

That's an argument for EL ICs, not for normal EL models, since they would not be eligible to join both.
So how does a non IC EL model remember its unit?

Are you saying that EL IC's are not part of a unit when removed as a casualty and an EL token has been placed?

Nemesor Dave wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:What, how you roll for EL?

*sigh*

About whether or not a model is removed from a unit when it dies. It is obvious that it is not in RP, because the model is forced to attach to "its unit". Nemesor Dave was suggesting that EL gets around this because it references "that unit", but EL works the same way, otherwise, you would never need the clause for returning to the unit you are attached to.

From EL
"If the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendly units that it is eligible to join, it automatically joins one of those units( your choice)."

You're choosing a very specific caveat to one special rule and applying it to your entire argument. The reason they had to mention this is in case the model stands up in coherency with two units. If it doesn't, it is a part of the unit that it had been attached to all along. Also, you'll notice this particular rule is stated just after the rules for the model that is not a part of a unit at all. So, if I have a Necron Overlord who dies and I have a Necron unit that comes within 3" of his counter when he stands up, he is obligated to join that unit. This has no bearing on whether or not he was a part of a unit to begin with, like you're suggesting.

Nemesor Dave wrote:So, in this case, which unit is "it's unit" since it can join both?

Whichever you choose. That's exactly what that caveat is doing - giving you a choice. Otherwise, it would still be a part of the unit that it was a part of when it "died".

Nemesor Dave wrote:Can a model be part of two units at the same time?

No, that is why the caveat is included.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Neither, because while removed as a casualty, models do not belong to units.

Funny that you derive your conclusion from sentences taken here and there out of context. Can you give me a page number for this reference that your citing? Because, in the rules of Warhammer 40K, the only way that an IC can leave a unit is through the movement phase. Now, we understand that being removed as a casualty also removes the model from the unit (by definition - it is removed from the game altogether), but this does not apply to Necrons as their 'models' and 'units' are not removed in the same way that everything else that is governed by the BRB is.



Curious then, if a Necron model is removed from a unit when it is removed as a casualty, why include a line about returning to your former unit at all? You would always be outside of your unit otherwise, since the only time you're allowed to join a unit is at the end of the Movement phase. Why don't they just skip to the part about joining to "one or more units"?


Edit:

Also, I'm curious, if you're thinking that the EL IC's are removed from their unit when they're removed as a casualty, how do you explain the FAQ answer?

Games Workshop wrote:Q: If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes.

I'm afraid I must respond with the following:
Now, I've noticed a tendency for this forum to get rather silly. Now I do my best to keep things moving along, but I'm not having things getting silly. Those two last debates I got into got very silly indeed, and that last one about the bed was even sillier. Now, nobody likes a good laugh more than I do...except perhaps my wife and some of her friends...oh yes and Captain Johnston. Come to think of it most people likes a good laugh more than I do. But that's beside the point. Now, let's have a good clean healthy outdoor debate. Get some air into your lungs. Ten, nine, eight and all that.

puma713 wrote:
Funny that you derive your conclusion from sentences taken here and there out of context. Can you give me a page number for this reference that your citing? Because, in the rules of Warhammer 40K, the only way that an IC can leave a unit is through the movement phase. Now, we understand that being removed as a casualty also removes the model from the unit (by definition - it is removed from the game altogether), but this does not apply to Necrons as their 'models' and 'units' are not removed in the same way that everything else that is governed by the BRB is.



Curious then, if a Necron model is removed from a unit when it is removed as a casualty, why include a line about returning to your former unit at all? You would always be outside of your unit otherwise, since the only time you're allowed to join a unit is at the end of the Movement phase. Why don't they just skip to the part about joining to "one or more units"?

Again From necron codex page 29, EL section:
"If the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendly units that it is eligible to join, it automatically joins one of those units( your choice)."

For example:
1. A overlord is in warrior unit A and they are right next to warrior unit B.
2. The overlord is shot and killed in the opponents shooting phase, place a EL counter.
3. At the end of the phase, roll and lets say you're successful.
4. The player can choose to place the overlord in warrior unit B and does since he is close enough to join either.

This proves a model is allowed to join a unit at times besides the end of the Movement phase. Specifically during the opponents shooting and combat phases.

The model started in unit A and then joined unit B, so which unit was he a part of while he was dead?

Nemesor Dave wrote:
For example:
1. A overlord is in warrior unit A and they are right next to warrior unit B.
2. The overlord is shot and killed in the opponents shooting phase, place a EL counter.
3. At the end of the phase, roll and lets say you're successful.
4. The player can choose to place the overlord in warrior unit B and does since he is close enough to join either.

This is incorrect. The Overlord must be returned, with a single Wound, in coherency with Warrior unit 'A'.

Edit: And in so doing, if he is also within 2" of Warrior unit 'B', he may choose to join that unit instead.

ToBeWilly wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
For example:
1. A overlord is in warrior unit A and they are right next to warrior unit B.
2. The overlord is shot and killed in the opponents shooting phase, place a EL counter.
3. At the end of the phase, roll and lets say you're successful.
4. The player can choose to place the overlord in warrior unit B and does since he is close enough to join either.

This is incorrect. The Overlord must be returned, with a single Wound, in coherency with Warrior unit 'A'.

Edit: And in so doing, if he is also within 2" of Warrior unit 'B', he may choose to join that unit instead.

Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think the EL character even has a choice. I think that that part of the rule was referring only to when your IC stands up alone.

Notice it says he may choose to join a unit that is he eligible to join. If he stands up and he must join unit A, he is not eligible to join unit B. At no time may he choose B over A, since he is already joined and may not leave to join another unit until the Movement Phase.

I think that this is only referring to when your model is without a unit and stands up within coherency of two separate units.