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I was under the assumption that once a model is

A. Removed as a casualty
B. Removed from play via jotww, tess lab, etc.
C. Destroyed via sweeping advance.
D. Destroyed via deepstrike mishap
E. Willing leaves the unit
F. Wiped out in any fashion not said yet.
G. Destroyed in any fashion not said yet.

Context is rather important in any rules question.

What is this about?

When is a model not part the unit.

I have a feeling this is in regards to the Sweeping Advance Super-thread.

Happyjew wrote:I have a feeling this is in regards to the Sweeping Advance Super-thread.

Definitely.

Indeed it does.

But the question stands.

When does a model cease being part of a unit.

I posit that any given model always counts as part of the unit it was bought for, but that once it has been RFPaaC, or otherwise 'killed', it longer counts for determining unit size, strength, etc.

Once it is completely removed from play with no chance to come back. And by "removed from play" I mean RFPAAC, RFP, killed, turned into a spawn, ripped open by nesting ripper swarms, etc.

Edited to add:

Lordhat wrote:I posit that any given model always counts as part of the unit it was bought for, but that once it has been 'killed', it longer counts for determining unit size, strength, etc.

This (summed up) as well.

Lordhat wrote:I posit that any given model always counts as part of the unit it was bought for, but that once it has been RFPaaC, or otherwise 'killed', it longer counts for determining unit size, strength, etc.

This.

A model being destroyed does not remove it from the unit; you paid points for a unit of 10 Space Marines, the fact that one was RFPaaC due to shooting does not now make that a unit of 9 Space Marines. It's a unit of 10 Space Marines, one of which is dead.

However, when you are counting models (for instance, for the purposes of the Ork Mob Rule), only the models which are currently on the table are counted.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
C. Destroyed via sweeping advance.
D. Destroyed via deepstrike mishap

In both of these instances, the model is still a part of the unit.
In both of these situation, the unit is destroyed, and the model being part of the unit is of course destroyed also.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Lordhat wrote:I posit that any given model always counts as part of the unit it was bought for, but that once it has been RFPaaC, or otherwise 'killed', it longer counts for determining unit size, strength, etc.

This.

A model being destroyed does not remove it from the unit; you paid points for a unit of 10 Space Marines, the fact that one was RFPaaC due to shooting does not now make that a unit of 9 Space Marines. It's a unit of 10 Space Marines, one of which is dead.

However, when you are counting models (for instance, for the purposes of the Ork Mob Rule), only the models which are currently on the table are counted.

so an IC joining a unit then when it dies due to RFPaaC is still part of the unit or no longer part of the unit.

and furthermore are there any BRB rules referring to or out right saying what any one on this thread has said.?

Happyjew wrote:

Lordhat wrote:I posit that any given model always counts as part of the unit it was bought for, but that once it has been 'killed', it longer counts for determining unit size, strength, etc.

This (summed up) as well.

Agreed, but the that only covers models bought for a unit. The point godlyness is asking about is models bought separately, then joined to a unit. Even then, there are 2 cases (for necrons at least) ICs and RC characters

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
E. Willing leaves the unit

and (if we're talking about ICs here):

I. In Assault until 'Determining Assault Results.'

Do you mean assigning attacks? Assault results are a side to side comparison, not unit by unit.

foolishmortal wrote:Do you mean assigning attacks? Assault results are a side to side comparison, not unit by unit.

Yes, sorta. Guess I should reword. They're treated as a separate unit until the "Determining Assault Results" part of the Assault Phase.

Also, counter models, like Ork ammo runtz and Grot oilers. They are placed with the unit, but do not count for anything other than their counter purpose (unit strength, LOS, models covered by templates, etc).

The old WBB rule considered models that were killed and eligible for WWB as still part of the same unit. In this case the model was left on the table on its side to represent still being in play. This was also why JAWS didn't allow WBB because it removed the model from play.

This is quite different than a unit of space marines losing 50% and a taking a moral check. In this case models are removed and no longer part of the unit. Checks are made against the starting size of the unit, not against how many dead models there are.

On con trair.

Ork mob rule. I asks for how many models are in the unit. Doesn't ask alive or dead or hoe many it started with.

So at some point in time models are removed from the unit.

Usually due to rfpaac.

Any one find rules for any of these arguments.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Any one find rules for any of these arguments.

?

These aren't "arguments". They are rules written out in the rulebook.

So my ork boyz are fearless even if their unit is below 11 models cause models never leave the unit. ? Yes I am being stubborn here but if models never leave then that's raw.

So the question
Stands.

And since these are rules what pg numbers and so forth.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:So my ork boyz are fearless even if their unit is below 11 models cause models never leave the unit. ? Yes I am being stubborn here but if models never leave then that's raw.

So the question
Stands.

And since these are rules what pg numbers and so forth.

Since you asked nicely.

Just to pick a random example: P.41 Defenders React
"If a unit that is already locked in combat from a previous turn is assaulted by a new enemy unit, it can react as normal. It's models must be moved into base contact with models from any of the units they are fighting, not just enemies that assaulted them."

Premis 1 if dead models are part of a unit, this says they must come back to the table and join in combat!

Conclusion: the game would be unplayable and broken if this were true. Therefore dead models are not considered still part of its unit. Note this does not exclude a rule that may refer to "its unit" meaning the unit it was part of when it was removed from play (as a casualty or otherwise).

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:On con trair.

Ork mob rule. I asks for how many models are in the unit. Doesn't ask alive or dead or hoe many it started with.

So at some point in time models are removed from the unit.

Usually due to rfpaac.

Any one find rules for any of these arguments.

well if you really want to have fun with words, where does 1 mob equal 1 unit? the whole ork army is just one big mob so the whole army is fearless as long as 11 of them are still alive

/duckandrun

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:So my ork boyz are fearless even if their unit is below 11 models cause models never leave the unit. ? Yes I am being stubborn here but if models never leave then that's raw.

This is a reasonable question. A reasonable answer might be "because that's how I was taught by the GW volunteers that demoed the game for me and that's how TOs have called it for years." Reasonable, yes, but not terribly satisfying. OK, I'll give it a try.

p24 BRB (5th) - Remove Casualties - pay particular attention to the 1st paragraph, 3rd sentence "model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty".

Edit : there is some interesting language in the 3rd paragraph that suggests that necron EL can, in fact counter SA. In general though, this language supports the summery 9I forget who made it, either lord hat, or rigeld, or someone else) of dead models being still part of the unit, but not contributing or being counted.

Ok, back to orks. Check your Ork codex p31 - Mob Rule! - note the phrase "around them at any given time". As far as fearless, it says "an ork mob that numbers 11 or more models"

All together, we have a codex special rule that allows orks to look around, count the models on the table around them in their mob and use that as their leadership if they want to. Then we have a rule for casualties that says, remove a model from the table. And Bob's your uncle.

So how do we define "around them"? I could argue, that the 20 strong unit of boyz across the table are "around" the 5 strong unit of boyz falling back.

The request was [basically] for a rules based argument with clear citations. I believe I brought it.

If you want ironclad, buy a dreadnought!

Happyjew wrote:So how do we define "around them"? I could argue, that the 20 strong unit of boyz across the table are "around" the 5 strong unit of boyz falling back.

well if you look at the mob rule, "morale is directly linked to the number of boys around them" so equal to all the boys on the field

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:So my ork boyz are fearless even if their unit is below 11 models cause models never leave the unit. ? Yes I am being stubborn here but if models never leave then that's raw.

So the question
Stands.

And since these are rules what pg numbers and so forth.

You're suggesting that when a casualty is taken, the model doesn't "leave" the unit? Only the board?

And if you're trying to enforce strict RAW without the inclusion of any sort of logic (as in, when you're removed from the table as a casualty, you're also removed from the unit, otherwise the Morale section would be worthless), then you're inviting in disaster. If you have to create loopholes, look for secret meaning in words and try to understand why everyone in the history of 40K has been playing it wrong, maybe you're thinking too much on it. Occam's Razor and all that.

My question is when is no longer part of the unit. The only reason I am bringing this up is cause of the necron super thread. Does a dead model count as part of the unit.

The res orb faq as I see it does not say it. When the model with a res orb dies it sets a lingering effect on his unit. Which in my belief he no longer belongs to.

But if a dead model belongs to a unit my ork boyz are fearless.

That is my point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And no not trying to find loopholes. Or anything just proving a point.

RP/EL place the model in kind of a limbo - they're still part of the unit, but not on the board.

Once they fail EL/RP rolls, they're gone - which is why if you lose the Orb in Movement, you don't have it for Shooting/Assault.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:My question is when is no longer part of the unit. The only reason I am bringing this up is cause of the necron super thread. Does a dead model count as part of the unit.

In regard to Necrons, yes. Until the end of the phase, that is. Morale is assessed and units react at the end of the phase. However this issue arises not because of some flaw in the Rulebook, this is because of how Necrons work. Normally, you'd shoot at a unit, they would remove models to represent casualties, morale would be assessed and the unit would react. With Necrons, you shoot at the unit, they remove models to represent casualties and then they set down counters to represent models. Morale is assessed, the unit reacts and then, before the "representative models" are removed, you get your rez orb. Just before you remove the counter that represents your model that is carrying the rez orb, it gets its affect.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Which in my belief he no longer belongs to.

He belongs until the end of the phase, which is just after the rez orb activates.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:But if a dead model belongs to a unit my ork boyz are fearless.

Why? Do your Orks have a different manner in which they represent casualties, like Necrons do?