Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

puma713 wrote:Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think the EL character even has a choice. I think that that part of the rule was referring only to when your IC stands up alone.

Notice it says he may choose to join a unit that is he eligible to join. If he stands up and he must join unit A, he is not eligible to join unit B. At no time may he choose B over A, since he is already joined and may not leave to join another unit until the Movement Phase.

I think that this is only referring to when your model is without a unit and stands up within coherency of two separate units.

Looking at it again, I think you're right. I agree.

The returning modal has no choice about which unit it can join. If it was a part of a unit before it was removed as a casualty, it must return to that one.

so my original question still has not been answered.

when does a model IC or not not count as part of the unit.

the

Q: If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes.

i only thing to interpret from this is that when he dies he puts a lack a better word(s) buff/status/ongoing effect. till the end of the phase in which rp/el is rolled.

to say he is still part of the unit is saying my ork mob with 2 models is fearless cause they started with 11+
which i will say is asinine

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

i only thing to interpret from this is that when he dies he puts a lack a better word(s) buff/status/ongoing effect. till the end of the phase in which rp/el is rolled.

to say he is still part of the unit is saying my ork mob with 2 models is fearless cause they started with 11+
which i will say is asinine

When he "dies" there is a counter placed that is representative of him. No other army functions this way. To compare your Orks to another army and its special rules is like comparing apples to oranges. When an ork dies, he is removed from the board (and consequently from the unit) and there are no two ways about it. When a necron dies, he is removed from the board, but he has a representative counter that shows that he may be back. This (apparently) allows his wargear to keep functioning.

Just because you don't understand it or don't agree with it, doesn't mean it doesn't function. My advice would be to stop trying to apply Necron rules to the Ork codex and ask why it's not the same.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:when does a model IC or not not count as part of the unit.

When it dies it is no longer a part of the unit, Unless it has rules that state otherwise (Like the Necron counters etc).

puma713 wrote:

ToBeWilly wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
For example:
1. A overlord is in warrior unit A and they are right next to warrior unit B.
2. The overlord is shot and killed in the opponents shooting phase, place a EL counter.
3. At the end of the phase, roll and lets say you're successful.
4. The player can choose to place the overlord in warrior unit B and does since he is close enough to join either.

This is incorrect. The Overlord must be returned, with a single Wound, in coherency with Warrior unit 'A'.

Edit: And in so doing, if he is also within 2" of Warrior unit 'B', he may choose to join that unit instead.

Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think the EL character even has a choice. I think that that part of the rule was referring only to when your IC stands up alone.

Notice it says he may choose to join a unit that is he eligible to join. If he stands up and he must join unit A, he is not eligible to join unit B. At no time may he choose B over A, since he is already joined and may not leave to join another unit until the Movement Phase.

I think that this is only referring to when your model is without a unit and stands up within coherency of two separate units.

I see what you're saying but the actual rule says you have a choice.

"If the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendly units that it is eligible to join, it automatically joins one of those units( your choice)."

The model is placed within 3" of the counter, it could easily be put in coherency and join either unit and be eligible A or B. The point is that if the unit is able to join more than one unit, this negates the possibility that the model has a specific unit while dead.

Remember, the counter is not the dead model like the old WBB, the counter is only a reminder of how many casualties you took, or the location your dead model with EL can come back to. This is RAW.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think the EL character even has a choice. I think that that part of the rule was referring only to when your IC stands up alone.

Notice it says he may choose to join a unit that is he eligible to join. If he stands up and he must join unit A, he is not eligible to join unit B. At no time may he choose B over A, since he is already joined and may not leave to join another unit until the Movement Phase.

I think that this is only referring to when your model is without a unit and stands up within coherency of two separate units.

I see what you're saying but the actual rule says you have a choice.

"If the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendly units that it is eligible to join, it automatically joins one of those units( your choice)."

That's just it. The character has to join the unit that he is attached to. He is not "eligible to join" unit B. I am convinced this part of the rule was in reference to when you find your lord all alone.

Nemesor Dave wrote:The model is placed within 3" of the counter, it could easily be put in coherency and join either unit and be eligible A or B.

This is incorrect. You must first see if he can stand up as a part of A. He must come back to his unit. That is outlined in the rules. If he comes back to that unit, he is not eligible to join Unit B. The only time one model would be eligible to join two different units is if he stood up alone, without a unit.

Nemesor Dave wrote:The point is that if the unit is able to join more than one unit, this negates the possibility that the model has a specific unit while dead.

This is a misinterpretation of the rules, which is leading to the issue.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Remember, the counter is not the dead model like the old WBB, the counter is only a reminder of how many casualties you took, or the location your dead model with EL can come back to. This is RAW.

You've been misinterpreting RAW this entire time. I don't expect this to be any different.

puma713 wrote:

You've been misinterpreting RAW this entire time. I don't expect this to be any different.

It says "your choice". If the model could only join a single unit, there wouldn't be a choice would there? If the model can join one of two units, neither is "It's unit".

It's clear that even in the case of RP and EL dead models are not part of any unit.

Nope, thats not the conclusion at all.

Not surprised you came to that conclusion though, as Puma said

The EL rules on p29 read a lot like a decision tree.

Approach stoplight.
If light is red stop car.
If light is green drive through or make a turn (your choice)

Although it says 'your choice', it is only your choice if the light is green. If the light is red, stop the car.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nope, thats not the conclusion at all.

Not surprised you came to that conclusion though, as Puma said

Lets see, so far we have:

1. Destroyed and "wiped out" don't mean the same thing (but we have no alternate definition).

2. Dead models are still part of a unit and can effect the game.

3. Sweeping advance is a long lasting state a model can be in and can kill the same model twice.

4. When a unit with RP is destroyed, remove all counters (including EL and Hunters from Hyperspace).

Common sense surrenders against arguments like these.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

foolishmortal wrote:The EL rules on p29 read a lot like a decision tree.

Approach stoplight.
If light is red stop car.
If light is green drive through or make a turn (your choice)

Although it says 'your choice', it is only your choice if the light is green. If the light is red, stop the car.

With another example my argument stands.

The EL IC model is part of warrior unit A, and warrior unit B is next to it.
Warrior unit A is wiped out due to shooting.
EL model makes its EL roll and is close enough to be in coherency with unit B, and therefore joins unit B.

Now - when the EL model was dead, which unit was "it's unit"? Also, here an IC has left a unit and joined a unit in the enemies shooting phase. The same could happen in the assault phase, therefore to say "a IC may only join or leave a unit in its movement phase" is false.

Ah youre so funny ND...

1) As shown in British English wiped out can mean destroyed but destroyed is not ALWAYS wiped out - meaning they are not exactly equivalent terms.

Your continued misrepresentation of arguments is beyond tiresome - borders on troll behaviour.

2) Shock, you're misrepresenting things again! No, NECRON dead models that are eligible for RP /EL are still part of the game, because the necron codex and FAQ tell you they are

Sorry that again you are wrong on something, but to keep on claiming the opposite is beyond rediculous now. You are simply holding fingers in ears and pretending it doesnt say what it plainly says.

Brilliantly dead models have been part of a unit since the necron codex came out - otherwise the monolith didnt function. But dont let facts get in the way of your argument.

3) No, it can destroy the model that was removed as a casualty. Because the two are different. Or are you claiming that RaaC and Destroyed are exactly the same again? Hard to tell - as soon as one argument is debunked you move to another one, then after a whlle back to the debunked argument as if it were still valid.

4) Actually youre getting confused - I've yet to claim that. Shocked that you would not only misrepresent anothers argument, but entirely make up attribution as well! Truly shocked.

My claim, and one backed up ni the rules, is that EL / RP do not specify they can SAVE or RESCUE a unit from Sweeping Advance, so they cannot. Its a very, very, very simple premise, backed up by very straightforward rules. Your "common sense" is to ignore the requirement to be specific, and cling blindly to a FAQ answer about wiped out that doesnt mention SA and hope it works.

Well it doesnt.

Angry Brits are funny. Thank you for making me smile.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ah youre so funny ND...

My claim, and one backed up ni the rules, is that EL / RP do not specify they can SAVE or RESCUE a unit from Sweeping Advance, so they cannot. Its a very, very, very simple premise, backed up by very straightforward rules. Your "common sense" is to ignore the requirement to be specific, and cling blindly to a FAQ answer about wiped out that doesnt mention SA and hope it works.

Well it doesnt.

I will agree that all these other arguments are points in lines of reasoning to twist the rules concerning this argument about Reanimation Protocols, Ever-Living and Sweeping Advance.

If sweeping advance destroys the unit with the model that has EL, according to the FAQ, the model gets to roll to come back. It's very simple really.

To even debate this, you need to pull out dictionaries, cross reference wordings, parse through every sentence line by line, ignore rules context, reference fluff as rules and generally ignore the fact that the FAQ was intended to end exactly this kind of debate.

Nemesor Dave wrote:If sweeping advance destroys the unit with the model that has EL, according to the FAQ, the model gets to roll to come back. It's very simple really.

NECRONS Official Update Version 2.0 wrote:
If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

I'm assuming you're referring to the above question/answer.
Where does it say "destroyed"?
Where does it mention "Sweeping Advance"?

It says wiped out. From a rules (not grammar) point of view , wiped out = destroyed. It doesn't have to mention sweeping advance. Sweeping advance is done resolving by the time the EL roll would be made.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ah youre so funny ND...

My claim, and one backed up ni the rules, is that EL / RP do not specify they can SAVE or RESCUE a unit from Sweeping Advance, so they cannot. Its a very, very, very simple premise, backed up by very straightforward rules. Your "common sense" is to ignore the requirement to be specific, and cling blindly to a FAQ answer about wiped out that doesnt mention SA and hope it works.

Well it doesnt.

If sweeping advance destroys the unit with the model that has EL, according to the FAQ, the model gets to roll to come back. It's very simple really.

WRONG. THe FAQ does not SPECIFY that it works against Sweeping Advance so, as per the sweeping advance rules it does not work.

It IS very simple, and you are STILL wrong on this

Nemesor Dave wrote:To even debate this, you need to pull out dictionaries, cross reference wordings, parse through every sentence line by line, ignore rules context, reference fluff as rules and generally ignore the fact that the FAQ was intended to end exactly this kind of debate.

Actually no, to debate this you have to simply look for the words "sweeping advance" mentioned ANYWHERE in the EL/RP or FAQ rules. Oh look, they are not there, meaning you STILL have no permission to save / rescue the using using the EL special rule.

It is mind bogglingly simple, yet your attempts at twisting it (from EL happens "after" SA, so it gets to work, to wiped out is exactly equivalnet to destroyed, et al) around are a sight to behold and a credit to what one person will do, DESPERATELY, to try to make their army better.

WBB never worked against SA, neither does EL.

nosferatu1001 wrote:WBB never worked against SA, neither does EL.

This has been said before, but I don't understand how it is supportive of the NO position. I don't have a copy of the 4th ed BRB, but from what I understand, it used to have a reference example showing that WBB did not work against SA. Ok. They took that example out in the 5th ed BRB. Now I don't see it's removal as tacit permission to reverse the rule. It isn't, but on the other hand, GW decided that citing a previous edition's rules didn't make for a clear example. Ever living and WBB are two different rules. RP and EL are two different rules. There are some similarities. There are even some places where EL says look at RP, do it like that (rolling timing/success/modifiers and placement of a joined IC). There is no place that EL says look at WBB, do it like that.

It is supportive because the last, final gasp argument is that, because EL happens "after" SA, it somehow is allowed to rescue the unit.

As I explained: WBB and RP/EL have the same trigger (RaaC), the same token mechanism and WBB resolved even later than EL does - an entire turn later. Yet WBB never ever worked against SA, throughout the first 4 years of 5th and the whole of 4th edition - when the rules are *exactly* word for word the same.

It shows how trying to argue timing fails at a fundamental level.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is mind bogglingly simple, yet your attempts at twisting it (from EL happens "after" SA, so it gets to work, to wiped out is exactly equivalnet to destroyed, et al) around are a sight to behold and a credit to what one person will do, DESPERATELY, to try to make their army better.

WBB never worked against SA, neither does EL.

To suggest a motive behind my argument does not invalidate my argument. EL can be prevented by consolidating next to the counter most of the time anyway. This is not a critical point to the workings of the necron army.

WBB had many similar disputes. The key difference between WBB and EL is that WBB kept the model on the table to represent the damaged model. EL removes the model from play and a token is placed.

WBB - the model stayed with the unit on its side to represent the damaged necron - still in play.

EL - a counter is placed as a reminder and to show where the model may return to play - the model is removed from play.

EL satisfies the conditions of SA, WBB didn't.

Do you understand that if the EL rule specifically mentioned SA, then the model would stay in combat like space marines?

I agree with Nem Dave on this. I had a problem earlier with EL not specifically mentioning SA, but I have come to accept that SA is fully resolved and EL is not a save or a rescue (they are removed from the table). EL then does what it was meant to, try and bring something back.

ND - no, they would not stay in combat like SM. SM stay in combat like SM because their rules say what to do instead - which is INSTEAD OF being destroyed you resolve them as Fearless models instead. All that would happen here is that the marker (same as the marker for WBB...) would stay on the board.

SA states you cannot use a special rule to save / rescue the unit (so, that would be the EL model, part of the unit) unless it specifies it works against SA. EL does not state it does. It therefore doesnt work.

Additionally - do not conflate @Remove from Play" and "Remove as a Casualty" - for if the model were removed from play EL / RP would not trigger in the first place. Precision is needed here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh - and how are you not rescuing the unit?

You have Unit A, composed of RP + EL models. As per the EL rules you are still part of the unit when your token is placed.

Unit A is swept and destroyed

You then try to resurrect a member of Unit A. Except you cannot, as SA tells you that you cannot do so unless you have a special rule allowing you to rescue the unit.

Exactly, you can tell it's not saving or rescuing it because it's dead. EL brings removed from the table necrons back to the table. It doesn't stop them from being removed.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

puma713 wrote:

You've been misinterpreting RAW this entire time. I don't expect this to be any different.

It says "your choice".

You're exactly right. It's your choice BETWEEN ELIGIBLE UNITS. Unit B is not an eligible unit because the model must come back to its unit.

That's the part of this rule that hasn't clicked for you yet. You only have a choice if one thing is satisifed: that you're eligible to have a choice. You're not eligible just because you stand up in coherency with two units. Otherwise, other parts of that rule need not be mentioned. You're eligible if you have no unit that you belonged to. Since you belonged to A, you have no choice to choose B, because you're not eligible to choose.

It's like you're completely ignoring this part of the rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

With another example my argument stands.

The EL IC model is part of warrior unit A, and warrior unit B is next to it.
Warrior unit A is wiped out due to shooting.
EL model makes its EL roll and is close enough to be in coherency with unit B, and therefore joins unit B.

Because "its unit" was destroyed. Therefore, it has no unit. Not because it was killed and left the unit, because the unit was removed from the table and it was left without one. The model didn't voluntarily leave his unit. He was forced to. This example doesn't strengthen your argument at all.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Now - when the EL model was dead, which unit was "it's unit"? Also, here an IC has left a unit and joined a unit in the enemies shooting phase. The same could happen in the assault phase, therefore to say "a IC may only join or leave a unit in its movement phase" is false.

Again, this isn't the IC leaving his unit, it his unit leaving him, because they were destroyed. You keep searching and searching and searching for examples that make your point, but there aren't any, because your point is false. The only time an IC may leave his unit (not the other way around) is in the Movement phase (or, if he is destroyed and not a Necron).

puma713 wrote:
That's the part of this rule that hasn't clicked for you yet. You only have a choice if one thing is satisifed: that you're eligible to have a choice. You're not eligible just because you stand up in coherency with two units. Otherwise, other parts of that rule need not be mentioned. You're eligible if you have no unit that you belonged to. Since you belonged to A, you have no choice to choose B, because you're not eligible to choose.

I posted a better example later in this thread showing that if the models unit A is killed in shooting, it is eligible to join unit B. Your statement that a model cannot leave or join a different unit except in it's movement phase is false.

It also shows that the model with EL is not part of any unit while dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Additionally - do not conflate @Remove from Play" and "Remove as a Casualty" - for if the model were removed from play EL / RP would not trigger in the first place. Precision is needed here.

I agree, precision is needed.

First sentence of the second paragraph of EL says the model must be "returned to play". Therefore it has been removed from play (as a casualty or otherwise).

Nemesor Dave wrote:

puma713 wrote:
That's the part of this rule that hasn't clicked for you yet. You only have a choice if one thing is satisifed: that you're eligible to have a choice. You're not eligible just because you stand up in coherency with two units. Otherwise, other parts of that rule need not be mentioned. You're eligible if you have no unit that you belonged to. Since you belonged to A, you have no choice to choose B, because you're not eligible to choose.

I posted a better example later in this thread showing that if the models unit A is killed in shooting, it is eligible to join unit B. Your statement that a model cannot leave or join a different unit except in it's movement phase is false.

It also shows that the model with EL is not part of any unit while dead.

Read my response to that above. Your mistaking a unit leaving its IC because it was destroyed versus an IC leaving voluntarily.

Nothing you have "shown" yet supports your argument.


Edit: Instead of continuing this argument, if you could give me a page number in the rulebook that gives permission to ICs to leave their unit at any time other than the movement phase, that'll clear everything up.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

foolishmortal wrote:Exactly, you can tell it's not saving or rescuing it because it's dead. EL brings removed from the table necrons back to the table. It doesn't stop them from being removed.

So, you have Unit A. Unit A is destroyed by SA. You then rescue a member of Unit A using EL.

Has this clicked yet? You are RESCUING the unit, by definition. A unit which was destroyed is no longer destroyed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, you have Unit A. Unit A is destroyed by SA.

Yes.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You then rescue a member of Unit A using EL.

No. SA removes the IC with EL from the table. EL does not stop it or rescue it. EL does not prevent SA from fully functioning. And at the end of the phase SA likewise does not prevent EL from functioning.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Has this clicked yet? You are RESCUING the unit, by definition. A unit which was destroyed is no longer destroyed.

which definition?

"No. SA removes the IC with EL from the table. EL"

No, it destroys the *UNIT*. Reread the SA rules. They destroy *UNITS* entire.

So Unit A has been destroyed by SA. EL attempts to rescue a member of Unit A, thus rescuing Unit A

If you dont see that saving something from destruction is de facto rescuing it, I'm not sure we will ever meet minds.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

foolishmortal wrote:Exactly, you can tell it's not saving or rescuing it because it's dead. EL brings removed from the table necrons back to the table. It doesn't stop them from being removed.

So, you have Unit A. Unit A is destroyed by SA. You then rescue a member of Unit A using EL.

Has this clicked yet? You are RESCUING the unit, by definition. A unit which was destroyed is no longer destroyed.

By now you must have read the answer to this. At the time the unit is swept, all models from the unit are destroyed or out of play only tokens remain.

Sweeping Advance is an action done by a unit.
How long does this unit perform the sweeping advance action?
Does sweeping advance remove counters?
Can the unit that won combat and has completed its consolidation move after doing a sweeping advance action do ANOTHER sweeping advance at the end of the phase?

Nope, as both the rules for the token and the FAQ repeatedly tell you, the token represents the model, thus the model has yet to be destroyed.

You cannot rescue the unit. You've probably got an answer to this by now - are you rescuing a unit when you return a portion of the unit to the table? Simple yes or no required. All it takes, yes, or no.