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nosferatu1001 wrote:Nope, as both the rules for the token and the FAQ repeatedly tell you, the token represents the model, thus the model has yet to be destroyed.

You cannot rescue the unit. You've probably got an answer to this by now - are you rescuing a unit when you return a portion of the unit to the table? Simple yes or no required. All it takes, yes, or no.

The rules do not say the counter represents the model. In fact it says the counter is only a "reminder of how many casualties were taken". The FAQ only says to place a counter. Nowhere does it say what it represents.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nope, as both the rules for the token and the FAQ repeatedly tell you, the token represents the model, thus the model has yet to be destroyed.

You cannot rescue the unit. You've probably got an answer to this by now - are you rescuing a unit when you return a portion of the unit to the table? Simple yes or no required. All it takes, yes, or no.

The rules do not say the counter represents the model. In fact it says the counter is only a "reminder of how many casualties were taken". The FAQ only says to place a counter. Nowhere does it say what it represents.

Through the rest of the RP rule you're told what the counter represents. It seems like you want RAW to hold your hand and tell you exactly how everything goes down (and conversly, you're taking things out of context and taking them as RAW).

If you want the rules to tell you that a counter represents a Necron, look further in the paragraph - it tells you the reason that you remove all counters when you fall back - because "damaged Necrons will self-destruct rather than risk capture." There's your RAW, if you want to play that game.

So, a counter is defined as a "damaged Necron.";. it is a placeholder for a damaged Necron (and hence, it is a collection of how many casualties your unit took). These "damaged necrons" (representative casualties) are removed from play at the end of the phase. If this was not the case, then the Rez Orb would not function.




I can't believe how long this conversation has gone on.

You know, I'm not even sure why we're talking about this. What is the issue? Why did this question even come up?

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Lordhat wrote:I posit that any given model always counts as part of the unit it was bought for, but that once it has been RFPaaC, or otherwise 'killed', it longer counts for determining unit size, strength, etc.

This.

A model being destroyed does not remove it from the unit; you paid points for a unit of 10 Space Marines, the fact that one was RFPaaC due to shooting does not now make that a unit of 9 Space Marines. It's a unit of 10 Space Marines, one of which is dead.

However, when you are counting models (for instance, for the purposes of the Ork Mob Rule), only the models which are currently on the table are counted.

Only playing Devil's Advocate here but if you had your leg amputated, would it still be part of you? Would it still be part of you 2 seconds after the amputation? Would it still be a part of you 1 year later after it had been incinerated? Technically we're all just stardust and therefore always a part of everything always but a 10 man unit that loses 1 model is then a 9 man unit and the casualty is no longer a part of it surely?

*Edit - just read a bit more of the thread and realised that it's moved on a bit lol. Is the argument about whether tokens placed to represent Necrons with a chance of Resurrecting still get that chance after sweeping advance? If so then I say no they do not since the unit is destroyed and the tokens can't be be the only things left so if the rest of the unit is destroyed, the tokens are removed anyway. If I've read this wrong just ignore me - I've been drinking.

puma713 wrote:
If you want the rules to tell you that a counter represents a Necron, look further in the paragraph - it tells you the reason that you remove all counters when you fall back - because "damaged Necrons will self-destruct rather than risk capture." There's your RAW, if you want to play that game.

This is where we disagree. The part about damaged necrons self-destructing is not RAW, it is fluff. Models do not actually self-destruct, at least mine haven't yet. Is there anywhere else that makes you believe counters represent a necron or was that the only part?

Well - theres the res orb, which explicitly functions when the necorn has been removed as a casualty. And the phylactery. And so on.

Found the words "sweeping advance" in the EL / RP rules yet, as required by the Sweeping Advance rules? Anything?

Nemesor Dave wrote:

puma713 wrote:
If you want the rules to tell you that a counter represents a Necron, look further in the paragraph - it tells you the reason that you remove all counters when you fall back - because "damaged Necrons will self-destruct rather than risk capture." There's your RAW, if you want to play that game.

This is where we disagree. The part about damaged necrons self-destructing is not RAW, it is fluff. Models do not actually self-destruct, at least mine haven't yet. Is there anywhere else that makes you believe counters represent a necron or was that the only part?

First of all, if you're going down the path of strict RAW, then we don't really have much to talk about anymore. If you're going to play that way, you'd better be ready to accept all the other ridiculous readings of pure RAW. The reason I pointed out what I did is because your argument is ridiculous, and it represents an equally ridiculous rebuttal.

Now, in response to your question:

The fact that a necron model returns for each counter to the unit that it is a part of. The fact that Necron wargear still functions, even if only represented by a counter. The fact that the model isn't actually removed from the unit until the end of the phase.


Now, since I'm answering your questions, I'd like you to answer a couple:

Where in the rulebook is an IC given permission to leave a unit, other than the movement phase?

How does a model that is not in play (or not represented as having not been removed from play) have functioning wargear?

Due to the faq. And only due to the faq.

It's wargear stops functioning since the model is no longer on ghe table. Only due to the faq does the res orb work.

To say otherwise again gives me fearless orks always.

A model being returned to play is different than usual yes but the rules still apply.

Back on topic gas any one answered my question. If so page numbers and so on.

So youre saying the Phylactery doesnt work either? Given that it, to, functions before the model is returned to the table?

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Due to the faq. And only due to the faq.

It's wargear stops functioning since the model is no longer on ghe table. Only due to the faq does the res orb work.

Once again, not applying logic. There is a reason that they answered the FAQ the way they did. You can take the FAQ and face value if you like, but there is reasoning behind the ruling. What could that reasoning possibly be? Just "because"? Really?

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:To say otherwise again gives me fearless orks always.

I assume, since you're still saying this, that you haven't been reading anything that has been posted in response. You are trying to apply Necron rules to the Ork codex. I can only assume now that you're trolling.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:A model being returned to play is different than usual yes but the rules still apply.

What rules would that be? The rules that specifically deal with Necrons being removed differently than say, an Ork?

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Back on topic gas any one answered my question. If so page numbers and so on.

Not sure what you're talking about anymore. Kind of stopped paying attention when you kept repeating the Ork bit.

That's a whole other thread.

Look for it. You will find it.

Cause raw yep. But Rai it works as intended.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
Cause raw yep. But Rai it works as intended.

It is working as intended via RAW as well. You just don't understand why. And that's okay!

puma713 wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Due to the faq. And only due to the faq.

It's wargear stops functioning since the model is no longer on ghe table. Only due to the faq does the res orb work.

Once again, not applying logic. There is a reason that they answered the FAQ the way they did. You can take the FAQ and face value if you like, but there is reasoning behind the ruling. What could that reasoning possibly be? Just "because"? Really?

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:To say otherwise again gives me fearless orks always.

I assume, since you're still saying this, that you haven't been reading anything that has been posted in response. You are trying to apply Necron rules to the Ork codex. I can only assume now that you're trolling.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:A model being returned to play is different than usual yes but the rules still apply.

What rules would that be? The rules that specifically deal with Necrons being removed differently than say, an Ork?

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Back on topic gas any one answered my question. If so page numbers and so on.

Not sure what you're talking about anymore. Kind of stopped paying attention when you kept repeating the Ork bit.

Yes tell me how necrons die differently than an ork.... Weird they still get removed. Just like any other army. They can just cone back .... Huh.

O I did not ignore what you wrote but to say its correct without being quantified is simply irelevant.

Hence why asked when does a model not count as part of the unit.

I don't know the answer and seems neither do you. But if you find out please be gracious enough to post it.

When the model can no longer affect the game, would make sense.

EL / RP models CAN effect the game.

Permissive rule set.

EL / RP models CANNOT effect the game while dead if they don't have a Res Orb.


No dead models count as part of a unit.

puma, I think I found an answer to leaving out of the movement phase.
Page 48, where it says that an IC may not join or leave a unit during the Shooting or Assault...oh wait...it says may not...

Nemesor Dave wrote:Permissive rule set.

EL / RP models CANNOT effect the game while dead if they don't have a Res Orb.


No dead models count as part of a unit.

The EL and RP rules disagree with you there, as the models retain unit "memory"

Ignore this.

Not to be slightly off topic but technically IC's are their own unit in Assault. While you cannot voluntarily detach an IC any other time than the movement phase, There are times when you are detached outside of the movement phase that aren't voluntary .

though to be fair it does say they automatically rejoin the unit starting at combat resolution.

>do ICs's test leadership seperatly than their unit or do they & the Unit take a shared test?

page 49 is IC & Assault

To be even more technically correct, IC's are their own unit only for resolving the attacks.