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filbert wrote: As far as I am concerned, I would rather have the choice between the two options. Yes, every GW battle report seems to be geared towards shilling terrain pieces but then again, it has always been the case, it's nothing new or shocking.

I completely agree (although as the OP points out, there was a marked shift when the official terrain board was released), it would be nice to have the choice. Promote a line of terrain kits by all means, but at the same time give new and younger players (who might not know any different) a nudge towards using their creativity.

An issue I have is that when I was a kid all, and I mean all, of the money I had for GW stuff went on models. I reluctantly bought paint, and then as little as possible if I meant I could squeeze in another blister pack. Given a choice these days, is a kid likely to buy that pack of trees, or another box set of minis? I think that the fact that GW stores were offering free paints (2 pots) with a £20 terrain purchase, with an understanding of how often GW does sales, is the answer to that question. So as a result I would hazard a guess that loads of kids these days are setting up on tables with piles of books and coke bottles for terrain. Nothing wrong at all with that of course, especially when you are first getting into the game, but when I was a teenager my friends and I made ham-fisted attempts to make our own terrain - we gradually improved with time, but the point was it could be done for very little money, and we were aspiring to stuff we saw in White Dwarf. We made use of those articles in the magazine, and the overall effect of a table of reasonably made terrain was enough to keep us gaming, and help keep the illusion of your miniature guys taking part in a battle.

That's something that has been lost I feel, but again it wouldn't surprise me if the whole 'hobby' side of things is gradually being relegated by the sales department - after all, time spent painting and modelling is time not spent thinking about buying a new boxset. That GW hasn't released some kind of 'dip' for speed painting or even pre-painted minis yet amazes me, and you have to think they are on the horizon.

Flashman wrote:It occurred to me that all the Codexes, Army Books and White Dwarfs used to include this sort of stuff, but open an army book these days and all you get is a chunky background section (75% of which has been copy and pasted from previous edition) and the army list itself. And don't get me started on what White Dwarf has become.(

Well, while the WD has certainly changed, Codexes and Army Books have NEVER featured the 'hobby' articles you describe. As someone who still owns his 2ed Codexes, a look through them shows exactly the same thing - a mixture of fluff, 'colour' section featuring painted pictures of models, and rules. Nothing 'hobby' has been removed from the Codexes.

As far as WD goes, I agree. I haven't bought it more than occasionally for years, and that's due to it's lack of content. GW's range of terrain really is VERY good, and very well priced compared to the competition, and I can see why they've therefore had to remove a lot of the 'make-your-own' articles from the pages. But I still miss them.

I also realise that part of my unsatisfaction might be because I'm now used to having lots of other hobby/modelling/terrain articles thrown at me by the Internet, on demand. When i used to have a WD subscription as a kid, it was my only source of hobby information.

I'd suggest they go back to 'conversion' articles like the famous old 'IG Abhumans' article. A conversion article, based on GW parts, but which still showed us something new. They could do the same thing with terrain. 'How to make your Aegis Defence Lines into a Trench System' for example....

ArbitorIan wrote:

Flashman wrote:It occurred to me that all the Codexes, Army Books and White Dwarfs used to include this sort of stuff, but open an army book these days and all you get is a chunky background section (75% of which has been copy and pasted from previous edition) and the army list itself. And don't get me started on what White Dwarf has become.(

Well, while the WD has certainly changed, Codexes and Army Books have NEVER featured the 'hobby' articles you describe. As someone who still owns his 2ed Codexes, a look through them shows exactly the same thing - a mixture of fluff, 'colour' section featuring painted pictures of models, and rules. Nothing 'hobby' has been removed from the Codexes.

My 3rd ed necron dex disagrees. There is a guide in there on how to create your own necrontyr crystals, and it also advises on using bits of rocks to represent the rocky terrain of a tomb world.

The daemonhunters Codex has a section on converting henchmen from Mordheim and warhammer minis.

I miss the hobby side. I look back at the pre-300 WD and think, 'if I were to make WD, I'd have kept it like this'. I then look at the early post-300 WDs and think 'hmmm, I might add that bit, and maybe that bit too...'

The 'new' WD I find is boring. I get more wargaming information from this forum, 'Wargames Illustrated' and 'Miniature Wargames' than WD now. And that, I think, is a great shame.

Lord of Timbraxia wrote:
The 'new' WD I find is boring. I get more wargaming information from this forum, 'Wargames Illustrated' and 'Miniature Wargames' than WD now. And that, I think, is a great shame.

Or not, I mean if your pushed into other mags to check modelling content and in that process you see new ranges new minis and new ideas its a win win situation for a modeller... In fact if you look at dakka over the years you see the same trend... from mainly a 40k forum it expanded to all sorts of games and miniatures publishers and thats a good thing for us.

Pacific wrote: after all, time spent painting and modelling is time not spent thinking about buying a new boxset.

It's a shame they don't realise that money saved by knocking together your own piece of terrain is extra money for buying a boxset.

Although I will freely admit that GW terrain is one of the best deals I simply can´t stand any more skulls so as a result I make my own terrain from other sources/cardboard...

I´d jump on one of the old forgeworld bunkers in a plastic kit if available in an skull less form. I don´t want another wall of skulls on a skull hill with skull shaped merlons and skull embrasures!

As an alternative, why not terrain blueprints in WD? Yeah I know GW thinks its better to sell than to engage their clients in the HOOOBBY!

M.

Hi all.
I wonder if this is why GW plc products appear to be loosing percived value for money?

When GW were focused on the TTMG hobby , and showed 'young uns' how to be creative and actualy have fun with thier friends being creative.

EG Buy a few minatures, (40k in 40 mins- Warbands set senarios like 7 Samuria,etc.)
Knock up some home made terrain, and have fun.

The added value of creating and buiding CHEAP home made terrain allowed more value to be attched to the first few purchases of 40k/WHFB players.(Linked with support for smaller games of course.)

The customer wants maximum return from minimal outlay.
And gamers want to be able to play a 'proper game' .

Unfortnatley , the current 'proper game' of 40k/WHFB that GW plc push , is far beyond the scope of the majority of GW plc prime demographic.(11 to 16 year old boys.)

I think its the usual non joined up thinking

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=2200008&aId=14200003a

zinge wrote:I think its the usual non joined up thinking

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=2200008&aId=14200003a

So £122 to build a dwarf brewery house? I assume a large part of the cost of the workshop is because you're paying the retail prices for the kits being used.

Previously there was no alternative to building your own scenery now there is. GW seems to be leading the way in plastic wargaming terrain kits.

Choice is a good thing.

The other side of it is GWs one stop shop approach.

That's a good thing too I suppose. It won't make me buy a RoB board though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I have heard good things about FW weekends. What's the current rate for two days traing with pro tutors?

That's said and slightly more on topic I seem to remember there being a paint your RoB weekend for £250 (including "free?" board).

Less certain about that one.

I'm thinking of a 3rd position. One where you can buy the GW kits, but combine them with scratchbuilding to create unique, yet familiar and good looking terrain.

Solves the "oh look another city of death..."

As well as the "oh look foam hills and coke cans..."

Check this out...

http://www.warforge.eu/warforgephotos/index.php?cat=7&page=2

My point being, why not get the best of both worlds?

Airfix made plastic wargame terrain kits in the 1970s.

Hobbies are about doing things yourself. GW doesn't want to be a hobby, it wants to take its collection of individual products and turn them into large sets of really big products. Many of those smaller products are designed to make the hobby easier for those who don't want to be bothered with a particular aspect of the hobby. GW's push to make these larger "product sets" create sets composed of many things that make everything easier, but are thus devoid of the hobby. In that way they stifle the hobby.

I don't think it should be about competitive play but simultaneous GW stifles that by the way they write rules and don't support it.

So if it isn't competetive play and it isn't about the hobby, what is there left to be the spiritual center of Games Workshop?-Nothing that's why they appear so aimless.

^Saw that in Sunday's paper. Instantly thought of Games Workshop. Bravo.

aka_mythos wrote:Hobbies are about doing things yourself. GW doesn't want to be a hobby, it wants to take its collection of individual products and turn them into large sets of really big products. Many of those smaller products are designed to make the hobby easier for those who don't want to be bothered with a particular aspect of the hobby. GW's push to make these larger "product sets" create sets composed of many things that make everything easier, but are thus devoid of the hobby. In that way they stifle the hobby.

I don't think it should be about competitive play but simultaneous GW stifles that by the way they write rules and don't support it.

So if it isn't competetive play and it isn't about the hobby, what is there left to be the spiritual center of Games Workshop?-Nothing that's why they appear so aimless.

Well put.

snowman40k wrote:I'm thinking of a 3rd position. One where you can buy the GW kits, but combine them with scratchbuilding to create unique, yet familiar and good looking terrain.

Solves the "oh look another city of death..."

As well as the "oh look foam hills and coke cans..."

Check this out...

http://www.warforge.eu/warforgephotos/index.php?cat=7&page=2

My point being, why not get the best of both worlds?

Lets face it this is almost exactly what you will find on most decent GW-centric tables even at Warhammer World.

I guess at the end of the day, I'm old enough and creative enough to do my own stuff without guidelines and prompting. I'd just like to see GW do the hobby with the younger generation too, because I know I got a big kick out of it when I was that age.

All I really need from GW is great minis, decent paints and reasonable pricing - two out of three ain't bad

I agree with you, Flashman. I'm 30 this April, which officially makes it more than 15 years that I've been painting and modelling GW wargames.

Unfortunately, GW just wants you to buy product, and get the hell out of their store so more people can fit in to buy more product. Rinse and repeat. And if you want to actually play in the store, here's the guidelines that turn you into free advertising for the store, for more people to go over to the shelves and buy exactly what they just saw on the table.

It sucks, because that's exactly what you need to make a business work in the most capitalist way possible. Unfortunately, us 'oldies' remember when there was also a healthy art community actually promoted by GW that allowed the best of both worlds, and that has been completely abandoned except my third parties like Dakkadakka.

The ironic thing is that I'm pretty sure these communities do more work for GW's sales numbers than GW's actual marketing department.

I don't mind some help with terrain. I used to buy model trees, I didn't make them from scratch. I used to buy sand and flock, I didn't (usually) go to the beach to collect some or go scouring the forest for lichen.

But GW has gone too far the other way, now everything on their tables is a boxed kit. I've seem some great terrain and wondered how it was made, but now there is no wonder, because their terrain is like the other GWs, you know it's all out of a box. Where's the magic? And furthermore, it means GW stores are ever more homogeneous.

It's not really a hobby anymore other than having to assemble and paint the figures. Each genre of GW game is becoming more of a giant gestalt boardgame, where you open the box, set out the pieces that are assembled the same as everyone else's of the type, and play.

The only real artistic expression and imagination they seem to want players to have anymore is what color to paint each army. Once you hit the table it's a vanilla blend of army metas, dice rolling, and memorizing rules, and then you pick up and go home.

As an oldie seeing the new generation playing, (for the most part, there are some rays of hope out there) it's like uncolored Magic: The Gathering cards that you paint yourself and then play.

AegisGrimm wrote:It's not really a hobby anymore other than having to assemble and paint the figures. Each genre of GW game is becoming more of a giant gestalt boardgame, where you open the box, set out the pieces that are assembled the same as everyone else's of the type, and play.

The only real artistic expression and imagination they seem to want players to have anymore is what color to paint each army. Once you hit the table it's a vanilla blend of army metas, dice rolling, and memorizing rules, and then you pick up and go home.

Actually, from the IA books and the What's New Today page on the GW site, I would say that they are still trying to maintain the hobby aspect, even though it is heavily bogged down by the commercialization.

On the GW site not too long ago, they showed a cryptek that was made from deathmarks and praetorian parts, and just 2 todays ago there was picture of a DP that was converted form a DK.

In the IA book throne of Tamurkhan, there is some advice on what to do if there is no model for a unit in the book. For the K'daii Destroyer (dunno how to write its name), the book states something like "If you wish to make your own, the model should be based on the same sized base as the araknorok (giant spider thing. Again, can't spell).

Yeah, the site has some stuff, but take a gander at White Dwarf. There used to be LOADS of cool stuff in what's now a giant ten dollar ad for what's out this month. I never missed a copy until about two years ago, and have barely even looked at one, even in the store, since. I'd almost rather re-read my old ones.

AegisGrimm wrote:It's not really a hobby anymore other than having to assemble and paint the figures.
...
The only real artistic expression and imagination they seem to want players to have anymore is what color to paint each army. Once you hit the table it's a vanilla blend of army metas, dice rolling, and memorizing rules, and then you pick up and go home.

So true. Its unfortunate that GW's perspective is simply the less time you spend on the other stuff the quicker you get back to buy GW products, which seems to be all they care about.

@aka_mythos.
I totaly agree.
Unfortunatly 'the other stuff'' is what adds value to the wargaming hobby.
So by reducing the time spent ENJOYING being creative ,(building terrain- painting -converting minatures/models. playing the games , writing senarios/themed lists, generaly having FREE fun.)

GW plc are making thier 'own brand ' products even less value for money!

Old GW used to inspire creativity and social interaction .
'Here are some ideas, go be creative and have a ton of fun.'

GW plc only selling own brand product.
'How much money do you have, here is what fun you can buy from us.'

The TTMG hobby should only be limited by your creativity and imagination. NOT restricted by your bank balance.IMO.

AegisGrimm wrote:Yeah, the site has some stuff, but take a gander at White Dwarf. There used to be LOADS of cool stuff in what's now a giant ten dollar ad for what's out this month. I never missed a copy until about two years ago, and have barely even looked at one, even in the store, since. I'd almost rather re-read my old ones.

Oh yeah, WD is a waste of money. No argument there.

When I open a WD, those first pages with pictures and prices of new releases... they might as well be the table of contents. WD is nothing more than an undersized and overpriced catalog. Its a big sales pitch... "this is what's new and this is why you should buy it. Look!-Fuuuuuuun!"

While the board is ugly the trees..ugly and so forth, you have to give it up for the city fight stuff!

They have done some cool kitbashes with their mighty fortress parts on occasion.