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Played a triple carnifex with 2 tl devourers on each the other week, with gaunts, zoans, primes and bio's.

36 TL S6 shots per turn? :/ do not want.

Actually crazy, might want you include that using the Tervigon in a kill point game isn't really the best option because they tend to spawn free kill points.

I'm assuming with this that people are rolling for missions after making their lists. The tervigons still a good choice all around, but in KP you need to be a bit more subtle.

Actually crazy, might want you include that using the Tervigon in a kill point game isn't really the best option because they tend to spawn free kill points.

Or you can, ya know, just *choose* to not spawn any Gants. They're certainly not required, but reliable sources of FnP are too good to pass up in my opinion.

How come tyranids not competitive? I've read those (boring) tervigon spam (w splash of hiveguard and stealers) are actually taking tops in some sireous turnoument...
full reserve outflank+drop (like http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/395346.page#3290973) also fare pretty well.
yes, if you look for a no-brainer lists that you just read on inet > buy up > play the tyranids are currently not for you (just as they were for you in nidzila times).
but imo changing armies like one might change MTG decks as soon as new overpowered codex arrives is not worth of True 40k player.
Tyranids as they are now are very powerful, but need some forethought and tactics

They're not competitive because they got hit hard in the new codex. Tyranids were my second army because it was horde and there was a new book out. But older players told me that carnifexes went up in price (killing a previous spam list) and the lack of grenades and abundant 4+ cover killed the assault phase. That was what I was told....

As a newer player (2 years now) I see the codex and the lack of grenades is obviously a weakness Tyranids can't overcome. We can't pull units out of cover so we pile in and assault last. We have nothing with armor 2 save the tyrant with an upgrade and things that may work players know how to stop.

Tervigons FNP? Krak missiles
Horde? Templates
MC/Fex spam? focus fire and force rolls
Reserve? castle up and take some free shots

It doesn't help that the 'Tier 1' armies all have plenty Str 8/ap3 weapons or better. Plus tyranids have a hard time cracking open the hated mehtael bawkses. If they do pop open then that unit is dead in the following shooting phase as their crowded around the vehicle for templates.

On a side note I did enjoy the game I played with Tyranids using the Pancake edition of 40k...

Fast Attack

Shrikes Semi-competitive
Tyranid warriors, that cost 5 points more, aren't scoring, and die to bolters. Also cannot be joined by a T. prime. On the plus side, are the cheapest "Fast Synapse", potentially turning them into a rapid-response team who patches holes in the synapse web. Run like this, they are fairly cheap, at a little over 100 points. Alternately, may be kitted out as a fast-moving melee deathstar, although they are definitely a glass cannon when doing so.

Raveners Competitive
Given rending claws, these guys act a lot like genestealers. Hit fast and hit hard. Susceptible to instant death, they are slightly better than genestealers vs bolters. I'd rather take stealers, but raveners work as well, especially in Tervigon-heavy lists, where troops are less important. Raveners really want a screening unit, because they are deployed with your army, and aren't slowed down by screens.

Skyslashers Non-competitive
Hey, for five points more you can get rippers that go faster than your synapse units.

Gargoyles Competitive
Probably the best screen in the tyranid army, and one of the better assault hordes. They cost as much as hormagaunts, and have a guaranteed 12" move, meaning you don't risk a poor run roll slowing you down. Also makes it easier to step aside for another unit to get through during the movement phase. Their close-combat upgrades are cheap enough that you can get both for the cost of one upgrade on hormagaunts. Between fleshborers before you charge, blinding venoms auto-wounds, and both toxin sacks and adrenal glands, they are about hormagaunts equals vs meq.

Harpy Non-competitive
Wow, a T5, W4, Sv 4+ monster? in an army with not other real targets for autocannons? How can I refuse? Oh! assault grenades and half enemies initiative on the charge? Pity it only has two strength five attacks. And initiative low enough that it will probably strike simultaneously anyways. I'd say that if you want either of it's guns, pay the points for a carnifex.

Spore Mines Semi-competitive
Good for shenanigans for the enemies deployment, may cause some damage if you go first vs. a footslogger army. That it. But they are fairly cheap.

mrwhoop wrote:
As a newer player (2 years now) I see the codex and the lack of grenades is obviously a weakness Tyranids can't overcome. We can't pull units out of cover so we pile in and assault last. We have nothing with armor 2 save the tyrant with an upgrade and things that may work players know how to stop.

Tervigons FNP? Krak missiles
Horde? Templates
MC/Fex spam? focus fire and force rolls
Reserve? castle up and take some free shots

It doesn't help that the 'Tier 1' armies all have plenty Str 8/ap3 weapons or better. Plus tyranids have a hard time cracking open the hated mehtael bawkses. If they do pop open then that unit is dead in the following shooting phase as their crowded around the vehicle for templates.

Thats a very simplistic way to look at it, and is someone were to just read that, they would assume Nids always lose. Its easy to say why things are not very good, or how they are rendered useless. What you have to do (if your playing them) is work out how to get the best out of them.

The Nid army my friend uses, does extremely well, albeit not playing top competitive armies very often/at all, but he still plays against decent lists and players. Armour is not a big problem, Hive Guard are brilliant, and Nids are a pretty good mid-shot range army, if you take units that compliment each other (Tervigons-Hive Guard-Genestealers-Trygon in my friends case) you can build a very solid list, and compete at a decent level. Reserve nid lists are also doing pretty well from what I gather...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

odorofdeath wrote:

Actually crazy, might want you include that using the Tervigon in a kill point game isn't really the best option because they tend to spawn free kill points.

Or you can, ya know, just *choose* to not spawn any Gants. They're certainly not required, but reliable sources of FnP are too good to pass up in my opinion.

Yeah you don't have to spawn, Tervigon is best unit in the codex in my opinion. Hive Guard, Stealers are both great, Trygons not far behind. But the Tervigon takes top spot, even without spawning, I would still take a Tervigon or two. FNP is vital in certain lists, it makes big Stealer units (in cover) very hard to take down (4+ 4+ is going to equal not that many dead Stealers).

Spawning gants, I think can serve three purposes. Capturing objectives is the most obvious, so you only do that in objective games when they are needed (say if your playing a tournament where kill points in objective games count for bonus points you will still want to be careful), screening. Useful if you don't have spare troop gants or Gargoyles to do this already. Or killing/holding up units, with AG and TS, they are I4 on the charge and S4, so get re-roll to wound against MEQ, they can actual do a bit of damage, and against weaker units, or in unison with say a Tervigon or something else in assault, they can probably swing the balance in your favour.

But a T6, 5 wound (I think 5), MC, that can grant FNP, capture objectives (if troop), spawn gants for the above uses, crush tanks, grant cover/hide up things like Hive Guard is very very very useful in any mission type, and a lot of different Nid lists....

Six wounds on the tervigon.

Is the PoM usable if put in a retinue of Gargoyles? That's my current plan, and my PoM is taking a lot of converting. Will it end up not being worthwhile? I'm starting to wonder if it wouldn't be a better idea to just use a Broodlord for HQ (I have Tervis, but they're in Troops where they belong).

I love the PoM fluff, but I'm wary given what I've read.

Winterkit wrote:Is the PoM usable if put in a retinue of Gargoyles? That's my current plan, and my PoM is taking a lot of converting. Will it end up not being worthwhile? I'm starting to wonder if it wouldn't be a better idea to just use a Broodlord for HQ (I have Tervis, but they're in Troops where they belong).

I love the PoM fluff, but I'm wary given what I've read.

Broodlords aren't HQs.

PoM + a bunch of gargs isn't a bad idea, but it doesn't sound amazing either.

Thats a very simplistic way to look at it, and is someone were to just read that, they would assume Nids always lose. Its easy to say why things are not very good, or how they are rendered useless. What you have to do (if your playing them) is work out how to get the best out of them.

The Nid army my friend uses, does extremely well, albeit not playing top competitive armies very often/at all, but he still plays against decent lists and players. Armour is not a big problem, Hive Guard are brilliant, and Nids are a pretty good mid-shot range army, if you take units that compliment each other (Tervigons-Hive Guard-Genestealers-Trygon in my friends case) you can build a very solid list, and compete at a decent level. Reserve nid lists are also doing pretty well from what I gather...

Not really a simplistic way considering I was talking about top tier armies. Can a good player do well with an army? Yes but I'm talking Nids vs net list/tourney/parking lot games. I can pull a draw or slight win against CSM, Tau, or fluffy lists but typically I see between 6-14 tanks on the field and in some cases I get out horded (like IG or orks). It's messed up but I feel like Nids just are not on the level with some of our weaknesses glaring at us.

Heavy Support

Carnifex Semi-competitive
The "horde" monster, which sadly costs almost as much as the "elite" monsters. You can take up to three per slot, but with no upgrades thay come in at just under 500 points. That being said, there are a couple ways to take carnifex's that don't suck. Dakka fexes (double devourers) joined by an equal number of tyranid primes has proved popular, as the prime allows for wound allocation and easy cover (as the unit is 50% infantry). The dakka fex's can threaten both light vehicles and infantry, and the unit is good in the assault. It is however, short ranged and expensive. The second way to make carnifex's function is to give them adrenals and frag spines, and send them to root enemies out of cover. They are probably the only unit in the army who can do that without massive casualties.

Old One-eye Non-competitive
This bad boy is quite firmly in the "Fun" camp. Has a pseudo-synapse ability, and also the highest strength in the tyranids dex. Can generate extra attacks, but, unlike blood talons noty perpetually. regains a wound on a 5+ at the start of each turn. Give him preferred enemy, and watch as he racks up attacks vs. the target of your choice. Sadly, becasue of his I1, is pretty useless against things like paladins and dreadnaught squadrons.

Biovore brood Semi-competitive
Sadly, these guys only do what the rest of the dex is alredy really good at, otherwise they would be competitive. With the longest-ranged and cheapest large blast markers in the tyranids army, biovores can still be useful. Decimate hordes, or target units of long fangs or similar and try to inflict a few casualties/pin them. Extremely meta-dependent, but possibly useful.

Trygon (Not-prime) Competitive
Like a carnifex, but for a 25% increase in cost, you get a 50% increase in all quantitative abilities, a buff to most qualitative abilities, fleet, and a shooting attack. Sure, you cannot take as many, and it can be difficult to find cover saves, but it is worth it. Given adrenal glands, the trygon hits before meq, and hits them on 3's. Fleet makes it easier to get into combat, and if it is unnecessary, you can take potshots on your way to the fight.

Trygon (Prime) Competitive
An otherwise normal trygon, with better shooting and synapse. Upgrade a normal trygon if you have concerns about synapse coverage.

Mawloc Non-competitive
Basically an ordinance attack that can be made anywhere on the field, every other turn, messes with the enemy movement, and costs 170 points. If you really want ap2, give a Carnifex Bio-plasma. You get AP2 and a monster that can actually fight.

Tyranofex Semi-competitive
Depending on who you talk to, either an overpriced, underpowered railgun, or a railgun with a vicious battery of anti-infantry weapons. You could give it an anti-infantry primary weapon, but then you have a giant biovore with bad range. Either way, it is expensive, durable, and getting a kit next month.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Tyranofex Semi-competitive
..and getting a kit next month.

Did not know that.

I'm going to run my PoM, will let people know how it works out. If not, I'll switch to two Primes, because I worry about my Synapse (currently at 1k I just have Tervi and Zoans, mainly because PoM isn't built, above that, same problem but exacerbated. Need to get choppin' and convertin'.)

Winterkit wrote:

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Tyranofex Semi-competitive
..and getting a kit next month.

Did not know that.

I'm going to run my PoM, will let people know how it works out. If not, I'll switch to two Primes, because I worry about my Synapse (currently at 1k I just have Tervi and Zoans, mainly because PoM isn't built, above that, same problem but exacerbated. Need to get choppin' and convertin'.)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/421948.page

47 page thread on the new releases including pics