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Cool, if you need to, send him to me and I can always give him ideas. I am by no ways the best tau player, but I have some crazy ideas that will spark people's imaginations to create even better armies/strategies.

jazzpaintball wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:How do you find your deep striking Tau against a jumpy/DoA BA list, if you have had any experience play against them?7

Congrats on the tournament result as well.

Actually I do play this list quite a bit. One of the more prominent players at my local store plays what he calls "Steel Angels." its a list that comprises of deepstriking marines that only have a 1 d6 scatter, death companies, dreadnaught with blood tallons ( I HATE that thing for the tau have nothing to stop it and nothing that can hurt it in CC), Maphiston (wrong name I am sure, the SC that has a Toughness of 6), a couple of vindicators, and the flying transport. A few things here and there change, but that is his basic list.

so far the scoreboard against him is 2-2-1. The loss was from the first time playing him.

The greatest trick I have is that I have the positional relay. He origianally just brought stuff on and I would send a deep striking unit in to divert him or to take out a more lonely squad/character/tank. Afterwards he started to play more in reserve.
Thats where the PR comes in. I can hold off my troops until after he comes in. WIth that, I know where he is and I can get the drop on him, not the other way around.

Every time I go against him, it is a tough battle, but it is a lot nicer having the ability to greatly know where the enemy is and reacting to him.
I try and stay true to the Tau fluff, and this is the best way I can be part of it: following the doctrines of Tau.

Kauyon - hunter patience. let the enemy get out into the open and come to you. Then when it is time:
Mont'ka - place the Killing Blow and take out as much of the enemy as possible at a single moment in time. The enemy has to rethink his strategy and give you time to keep killing.

I know.... I am a Tau nerd... and I love it,
Waffles

HA! Now it's 2-2-2 Blood for the blo........ ..........Ummm i mean long live the Emperor.

iBambam wrote:In the tournament at my LGS this past weekend Tau took 1st place. They're not dead, they just take a lot of skill to play.

Is pure luck skill now? They are no where near as effective as other armies, that is proven as a statistical fact.

OPINION
My opinion is that Tau didn't win those games, but you did with good unit placement and a lot of luck.

> I personally don't like the army list you use, but then again I use Flanking Kroot as assault and not bubble wrap like every other Tau player. Also I just hate TW-MP, they are the least effective combo of weapons in cost/effectiveness on a crisis suit. But bringing one squad of them I can't really complain with the current level of transport spam most the top armies are using.
> Nightfighting for three turn on the first game was really helpful. But this isn't normal. With proper sight I feel the Necron player would of probably done a lot more damage before your suits could of come in.
> Cron army was also faily weak compared to what could of been fielded.
> "Rhinos are remembered and come in." Another pure luck moment. Going the entire game and forgetting his reserves? That's pretty impressive.
> SM army didn't seem like a strong meta-game army. But I'm not too familiar with Doom Legion. Didn't seem as scary as spacewolves.
> Suit doesn't die in combat with a dread?
> I just find myself thinking "lucky" with too many things that go on in the fights.

Positive Notes

> Your army looks great!
> I like deepstriking units, sometimes.
> A Tau army that plays without Kroot Bubble Armor is always impressive and welcome to me.
> No Hammerheads is becoming the new Meta for Tau it seems. And when I play it, it works. Only problem is swarm armies (half my local area is orks >_&gt.
> Your unit placement and decisions were top notch! You defiantly know the army you built, and you have the dice gods on your side to make it work. (Yah I still feel it's a lot of luck)

I wanna see game 3, and I hope you fight a person who brings a strong metagame army or swarms. I feel that well played melee armies will easily roll over this list.

Yea, swarm armies are also something I fear. After playing for 6 years, I have yet to play against orkz. It is not that people around me dont play them, its that the ork players are also huge SM players and most of them would field a "better army" while playing. (or some other reason, IDK)

jazzpaintball wrote:Yea, swarm armies are also something I fear. After playing for 6 years, I have yet to play against orkz. It is not that people around me dont play them, its that the ork players are also huge SM players and most of them would field a "better army" while playing. (or some other reason, IDK)

How do you play against IG, GK , and SW mech spam?

WOW!
I remember that GT, and we are still floored that 5 Tau Players showed up.

Good Job on getting 4th. I pulled out 11th with my mech BA, which isn't bad for being tabled turn one.

I hope I play you at the next GT (2k), because now I know your secrets.

Also, I didn't remember seeing someone getting kicked out, but if they got rid of a TFG, good riddance.
(What army was he, if you don't mind telling me?)

This was a nice tournament. Turns out we had at least one army from every codex. And as almost everyone there, I too was suprised at the amount of Tau we had at the game. Also, I was the only Ork player there.

jazzpaintball wrote:Yea, swarm armies are also something I fear. After playing for 6 years, I have yet to play against orkz. It is not that people around me dont play them, its that the ork players are also huge SM players and most of them would field a "better army" while playing. (or some other reason, IDK)

(dave the tau guy here) Ork kan lists I can handle fairly easily, even some ork wagon/trukk lists.

Ork bike/speed lists....they totally destroy me. With the cover saves, invuls and FNP those bikers are just impossible to kill, unless you get lucky.
(they get into combat VERY quickly thus you maybe have one turn of shooting against them...if the dice are unkind that round.....).

In wargames con last year, my worst defeat was against a ork biker list (drop pod wolves are a challenge as well, but not like ork bikers).

Hordes is why I run deathrains in my lists (FL/TL MP) - I have long range light at, and close range flamers.
Of course, that suits my play style, each player will have their own, my choices work for me....

I have to say, in games you can run FW units, I run Commander Ralai - he is expensive but his weapon flexabiltiy really helps with horde (he can fire either a 36" S9 assault 2, or S4 Assault 2 5" blast - but both have 'gets hot".) I hope we get more units like this in the new dex....(if it ever comes).

Thanks for keeping the tau going....I just finished my kroot this past weekend (did the last 40 in one go....took a week).
I will try to make a post about them. Next up: finish my pathfinders.

For the greater good!!!

jazzpaintball, nice going on the tourney. And great looking army!

7yler wrote:jazzpaintball, nice going on the tourney. And great looking army!

Thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

davethepak wrote:I have to say, in games you can run FW units, I run Commander Ralai - he is expensive but his weapon flexabiltiy really helps with horde (he can fire either a 36" S9 assault 2, or S4 Assault 2 5" blast - but both have 'gets hot".) I hope we get more units like this in the new dex....(if it ever comes).

Who/what is Commander Ralai?

davethepak wrote:
Ork bike/speed lists....they totally destroy me. With the cover saves, invuls and FNP those bikers are just impossible to kill, unless you get lucky.
(they get into combat VERY quickly thus you maybe have one turn of shooting against them...if the dice are unkind that round.....).

In wargames con last year, my worst defeat was against a ork biker list (drop pod wolves are a challenge as well, but not like ork bikers).

Bubble wrapping is your friend.

Isseyfaran wrote:

davethepak wrote:
Ork bike/speed lists....they totally destroy me. With the cover saves, invuls and FNP those bikers are just impossible to kill, unless you get lucky.
(they get into combat VERY quickly thus you maybe have one turn of shooting against them...if the dice are unkind that round.....).

In wargames con last year, my worst defeat was against a ork biker list (drop pod wolves are a challenge as well, but not like ork bikers).

Bubble wrapping is your friend.

Yup, but too bad that most decent players and tourney players develop a list in which you can not tailor to the enemy.

Ohh, and just a heads up, the list idea you gave me. So far that list variant is 0-1-6. Not that great of list evidently.

Waffles

jazzpaintball wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:Bubble wrapping is your friend.

Yup, but too bad that most decent players and tourney players develop a list in which you can not tailor to the enemy.

Ohh, and just a heads up, the list idea you gave me. So far that list variant is 0-1-6. Not that great of list evidently.

Kroots arent tailered units. Tau TAC lists all have kroots.

jazzpaintball wrote:Ohh, and just a heads up, the list idea you gave me. So far that list variant is 0-1-6. Not that great of list evidently.

I am pretty sure it has to do with the player more than the problem of that list Those list are among the best ones in the "market" for Tau.


Also, you haven't enlighten everyone how your list will deal with Mech spams and LF spams. Being able to beat 2 out of 10 list (an analogy) does not make a list a good one.

This thread brings a tear to my eye. They grow up so fast... Sniff sniff.

Seriously, dude, I am very happy about this Tau Powah showing. You practiced like crazywith me and the other guys to make it happen too.

A guy on another forum was bagging on Tau. He even told me that in order for me to win, I needed inferior Generals. Lol. Yeah right. Cause the Generals around here are such softies right?

I like how you mention your tactics. If yer gonna' do that, you gotta put my link up! sheesh.

JK. But seriously. Awesome work.

Jancoran wrote:This thread brings a tear to my eye. They grow up so fast... Sniff sniff.

Seriously, dude, I am very happy about this Tau Powah showing. You practiced like crazywith me and the other guys to make it happen too.

A guy on another forum was bagging on Tau. He even told me that in order for me to win, I needed inferior Generals. Lol. Yeah right. Cause the Generals around here are such softies right?

I like how you mention your tactics. If yer gonna' do that, you gotta put my link up! sheesh.

JK. But seriously. Awesome work.

What are you ranting about?



Anyway the reason why Positional Relay Tau army does not work is because essentially you are still coming in piecemeal like normal reserve - in this case even smaller pieces. That is already assuming the bearer survives 1-2 turns of shooting. Any decent list will be able to do the killing. Even if it miraculously pulls off, there isnt much alpha strike to speak of by turn 5. And if it's an assault army, they are just waiting at your doorstep at turn 5 for you to enter the field, and then pounce on you the next turn.

If one decides to deploy as normal, then this list just doesn't pack as much firepower as the standard Tau list do.

Wow Kenny. I can not tell if you are trolling or just a bit ignorant, but I will assume the later as most players seem to be the latter.

The idea behind the Positional Relay is not coming in like piecemail, but rather to come in at once in the middle of the game. The whole idea is so that the enemy is out in the open and/or near your board edge when the tau flood gate opens.

Everyone and their uncle that plays this game knows the Tau for one thing: Shooting. Therefor, they deploy in reserve and hide what is on the board. This happens and the Tau do not have optimal shots. Likewise, when I want a suit team with plasmas to come in and obliterate a terminator squad, I have to make sure they are in the open and that my XV8's have a spot to land. If I have to roll for them to randomly come into play, I may not get the unit I want on the board when I want it or even worse have to put the team in and have the enemy get nothing but cover saves to my ap1/2 shots.

If you play Tau and think this is a stupid idea, then go ahead and keep playing your lists.
If you dont play Tau and think this is a stupid idea, then you have not played against this kind of list and seen what it can do.

Ignorance is bliss, but it will loose you games,
Waffles


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Isseyfaran wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:Bubble wrapping is your friend.

Yup, but too bad that most decent players and tourney players develop a list in which you can not tailor to the enemy.

Ohh, and just a heads up, the list idea you gave me. So far that list variant is 0-1-6. Not that great of list evidently.

Kroots arent tailered units. Tau TAC lists all have kroots.

jazzpaintball wrote:Ohh, and just a heads up, the list idea you gave me. So far that list variant is 0-1-6. Not that great of list evidently.

I am pretty sure it has to do with the player more than the problem of that list Those list are among the best ones in the "market" for Tau.


Also, you haven't enlighten everyone how your list will deal with Mech spams and LF spams. Being able to beat 2 out of 10 list (an analogy) does not make a list a good one.

I will give that Information as soon as I encounter it. I do not ask people to field certain armies against me, instead I just ask that they put their strongest tourney list against me. Until I find someone who plays a horde tourney list or a Mech Spam list, I can not do much. I am unsure that these lists are not a very competitive list style or if it is just that I am unlucky getting the right players on the right days

Long post:

Kenny:
Jazzpaintball plays at my store. He and I play a lot. I have been helping him learn to play Tau in 5th Edition (and his newness to 5th makes his 4th place showing all the most spectacular and well deserved). So I take a little pride in it I guess. We must have played 10 games before that tourney to get him ready and switched this and that i nthe list over and over again.

He's right about the Positional Relay. It is huge. It allows him to use isolation to kill his prey. While his list is VERY different from mine, he employs it similarly.

Blood Angels, IG and Space Wolves (and all other armies) all share one problem when facing his Tau: they have no targets. All the firepower, speed and crushing melee ability is wasted for 3-4 turns. The enemy has a choice: Split up and cover the corners and center, but then his force is broken up and more vulnerable and less able to respond to the other pieces of it. Optionally, the enemy can stand back and be patient, shooting what it can. But do you really wanna' exchange shots with his broadsides as your whole game plan and hoping they will both break on ld and not regroup before your transports/important stuff is dead? No, you need to shut them up reliably. So you are back to splitting up and charging the corners. If you're a horde or a Blood Angel, the conundrum is the same. You're splitting up and even if you attack just one, you're accomplishing little and using a lot ot do it... and Tau range is going to prevail afterwards.

Or he can deploy as normal when it makes more sense to get volume over timing.

His Tau can delay the suits by bringing in the non-essential Kroot. So if you try to play the waiting game with him, it's playing with fire. His Kroot will never deploy anywhere but where he wants to divert you. Problem is, if you dont divert, he has a firebase for the game... While the Broadsides plink away... So the KP is easy to get but is it worth it? Make the wrong decision for just one round and he can lead you on a merry goose chase. Tough call.

So the beauty of the strategy is that all your choices are bad choices. You will kill the Broadside in turn 3-4 in all likelihood and be stranded on the best case scenario (7 times out of 9, nothing works all the time) with time running out. God forbid those 2+ saves tie your unit up longer. That is when the flood gates open and he rips apart whatever sector he needs to in order to secure the victory and then holds on for a round.

I'm over simplifying, but that is essentially the plan. There are a few things that really help against this build, but of course remember that many builds just dont feature these things, so yeah they may help, but will they actually get fielded? Sometimes. Here are some tips against it:

1st, Vanguard Veterans. a pair of very small squads can force him into plan B as can a pair of infiltrator units. If he knows you have them he can also counter your counter, but that depends on who deploys first right? So this is one way to force his flood gates open sooner than he wants and give you the targets YOU want.

2nd possibility is LD nerfing. Tau have poor ld. While I certainly wouldn't bet on the ability to force a LD check when you're firing at three 2+/4i models with so few shots (ask any player who plays Terminators), a high volume of fire like armies that feature entire Heavy bolter units (Sisters of Battle for example) and the like might be able to force the check. of course the IG Psyker Battle Squads are really good at knocking Broadisdes off the table. Still no guarantee, but such units would improve the chances of not having to isolate your forces, albeit the Kroot may soon arive to at least halt them for a precious round soon so make hay while you can. The command suit makes it tougher to kill one of the units as well. Unfortunately the command suit unit is the one you MOST want to target this way so... Snikrot would work well forcing the Broadsides foward to protect the Commander and then snagging the other ones.

So there are answers, but most of the answers force him to plan B and plan B isn't bad either: shoot your face off. Sometimes plain old brutality works when finesse does not. Tau that get a little luck on to-hit rolls (or aided by Pathfinders, which he has) can really do damage even with basic Fire Warriors. Not reliably, but it happens.

Are you going to come up to the GW 2000 point in two weeks?
I you need pratice vs a hoard my need are around at tacoma.
Always glad to see tau do good. Ninja tau are something you don't see all the time.

jazzpaintball wrote:Wow Kenny. I can not tell if you are trolling or just a bit ignorant, but I will assume the later as most players seem to be the latter.

Don't be too quick to judge. We shall see.

jazzpaintball wrote:The idea behind the Positional Relay is not coming in like piecemail, but rather to come in at once in the middle of the game. The whole idea is so that the enemy is out in the open and/or near your board edge when the tau flood gate opens.

You are coming in small piecemeal UNTIL you choose to not trigger the positional relay. So either you send in one unit at a time, or you roll for normal reserve. How is either case not a case of coming in piecemeal?

Also, why should the enemy choose to be "out in the open'? I don't quite get this part.

jazzpaintball wrote:Everyone and their uncle that plays this game knows the Tau for one thing: Shooting. Therefor, they deploy in reserve and hide what is on the board. This happens and the Tau do not have optimal shots. Likewise, when I want a suit team with plasmas to come in and obliterate a terminator squad, I have to make sure they are in the open and that my XV8's have a spot to land. If I have to roll for them to randomly come into play, I may not get the unit I want on the board when I want it or even worse have to put the team in and have the enemy get nothing but cover saves to my ap1/2 shots.

I don't understand what advantages there is in having 10-20% of your forces on the board against 100% of your opponent's, and adding in 10% onto the board one at a time. You mention "coming in at once in the middle of the game". What is the middle of the game? Turn 3? - Not guaranteed. Turn 4? - Not guaranteed. Also, even if it happens, it really isnt a "middle game Alpha strike" because you have just sacrificed 20-30% of your whole army piecemeal to the opponent in the first half of the game.

All of the above is ASSUMING your bearer survives. I can't think of any decent list which cannot kill the suit commander in 2 rounds of shooting.

jazzpaintball wrote:If you play Tau and think this is a stupid idea, then go ahead and keep playing your lists.
If you dont play Tau and think this is a stupid idea, then you have not played against this kind of list and seen what it can do.

Actually, there have been tons of posters posting such list already. Maybe you haven't been visiting dakka forum frequent enough?

jazzpaintball wrote:Ignorance is bliss, but it will loose you games,

It's lose, not loose. Loose is the opposite of tight.

jazzpaintball wrote:I will give that Information as soon as I encounter it. I do not ask people to field certain armies against me, instead I just ask that they put their strongest tourney list against me. Until I find someone who plays a horde tourney list or a Mech Spam list, I can not do much. I am unsure that these lists are not a very competitive list style or if it is just that I am unlucky getting the right players on the right days

I am actually quite surprised that you said that. I mean haven't you been to the Nova Open, or read any battle reports on them? If you did, you should be very familiar with the competitive lists around. Mech spam is what is 5th Edition is all about. If you haven't played against them, then you haven't played competitive 40k. Or shall I now say you are ignorant ?

Also, why is it that you haven't explain how your list would deal with the list just mentioned? For example, BW spam? Is it because your list has no way of dealing with them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hi Jancoran, first of all, thanks for the long post. Right or wrong, at least you make an effort to back yourself up, and seem to have a better idea than jazz.

You mentioned BA, SW, and SW. Why won't the opponent choose to stand back and exchange fire with the broadsides? A standard SW list at the point level mentioned has 6 las/plas razor. 6 lasc on average hit 4 times, wound 3.33 times, and kill 1.666 broadsides a turn (or its drones). So over the course of 3-4 turns, he can wipe out whatever broadsides you have. On top of that, there are 15 missiles from the Long Fangs every turn, who can constantly shoot at your commander and whatever is on board. So instead of exchanging fire with a 100% Tau army on the board, they are now exchanging fire with 20% of Tau army on turn 1 and 2, and 10% additional every turn.

I may possibly be missing something, but i m here to learn. So maybe you can enlighten me?

Also, Ork BW spam. All they have to do is spend 2 -3 turns driving to the edge of your board, wipe out in assault your broadsides (or whatever is on board, and wait to assault the rest of the Tau army. If 100% of a normal Tau list don't pack enough firepower to wipe out 100% or even 80% of an opposing army, i don't see how this list (which packs even less firepower when looked in totality) can do it - say if the "everything comes on board in the middle of the game" gets pulled off.

Well Kenny, thank you for noticing my typo. I know how difficult it is to not attack someone for double hitting a key, so whatever.

In either case, when I come up against a long fang game, I will field my army in more of its entirety. You seem to be bludgeoning me due to the fact that I have not gone to a world renown tourney. I appologize for that, I will get right on that......

As far as the games go, I am having great success with this list. I am tired of explaining myself for my wins. When this list is no longer effective, I will try something else. I am always evolving the list, but just because It has not worked for you and others does not mean someone with the foresight can not win with this list.

I am done talking to the players of Singapore. Granted it is only the two in this thread, but if the other players are like yourselves, I will take that red and white flag as a warning and proceed with caution.

Ignorance is bliss, but it will lose you games.
That goes for everyone, even myself. And I GUARANTEE I am still ignorant because I don't win every game. Therefor I keep learning and evolving. I am proud of my ignorance for I can learn from it instead of being hindered by stupidity.

Waffles

Kenny wrote:
Hi Jancoran, first of all, thanks for the long post. Right or wrong, at least you make an effort to back yourself up, and seem to have a better idea than jazz.

You mentioned BA, SW, and SW. Why won't the opponent choose to stand back and exchange fire with the broadsides? A standard SW list at the point level mentioned has 6 las/plas razor. 6 lasc on average hit 4 times, wound 3.33 times, and kill 1.666 broadsides a turn (or its drones). So over the course of 3-4 turns, he can wipe out whatever broadsides you have. On top of that, there are 15 missiles from the Long Fangs every turn, who can constantly shoot at your commander and whatever is on board. So instead of exchanging fire with a 100% Tau army on the board, they are now exchanging fire with 20% of Tau army on turn 1 and 2, and 10% additional every turn.

I may possibly be missing something, but i m here to learn. So maybe you can enlighten me?

Also, Ork BW spam. All they have to do is spend 2 -3 turns driving to the edge of your board, wipe out in assault your broadsides (or whatever is on board, and wait to assault the rest of the Tau army. If 100% of a normal Tau list don't pack enough firepower to wipe out 100% or even 80% of an opposing army, i don't see how this list (which packs even less firepower when looked in totality) can do it - say if the "everything comes on board in the middle of the game" gets pulled off.

Perhaps i should have said that while you may and will try to exchange some shots with the Broadside, but that is a death of one thousand paper cuts. it takes too long. Even with Las/Plas, the plasma portion of that can't hit anything until turn two (at which time there won't be six of the manymore, I think we can agree). 2+/4+ is no joke. I would never claim that something works all the time, but when you consider that the 6 las/Plas fire only six times in round 1 (and many armies don't have that same luxury, and some have more), you see that 4 hit and unfortunately, they aren't all hitting at the same time, so when the Shield Drone bounces one, the statistics actually become less and less likely of a UNIT kill. So the chances of killing the unit go down after each UNsuccessful hit, even though the chance of hitting doesn't change. Thats a little complicated for me to try and show here but hopefully the idea is easy enough. It is unlikely that six shots can kill a Broadside unit (barring bad luck) but it IS likely to cause the morale check which is what you really wanted anyways. More to the point, the death of the broadside isn't necessarily that important after the first two rounds anyways. They really only have to do their jobs for two rounds. After that, it's gravy for the Tau player. Also, don't forget, there is one additional target you may want to include as important: the Pathfinders. Leaving them alive can be as dangerous as the broadsides at times.

As for the 390 points fighting off 2000, you're right. SOUNDS bad. But THIS IS SPARTA! (just kidding but i couldn't help it) My opinion is that you want to do things for good sound reasons...not just reasons that just sound good. Is it to the Tau advantage to allow your {fill i nthe blanks} army to bring all its might to bear, all game long? To allow the Dark Reapers to bomb us endlessly? To allow the fast Vindicators to rumble up and just demolish our units in round 2? perhaps allowing Commander Shrike to sneak up and gank two broadsides by round 2? Or perhaps allo the Tervigons to outflank into us and just begin the slaughter? All those examples are about position and giving the enemy targets. The concept is why almost everyone agrees that you let Daemons and Dark Angels go first. Why? Give them no targets and overwhelm them with firepower of course. The Positional Relay just lets the Tau force the enemy to act somewhat like Daemons and Deathwing, if that makes sense.


So the idea here is position. If the orks do the Waaaaaagh, and they cross the board in record time (and they will if their truks dont kill all of them first) , they are stil likely charging in round 3 when they charge (because the tau player will if he can go last and the ork will be only too glad to let him most of the time). that means it will be round 4 until they can do something else and thats IF the silly Broadside doesn't have the presence of mind to die when bidden to! Where are the orks, top of 4? they are in three sectors (plus their backfield, so four). and it's 4th round. they have two rounds to get back to where they need to be. That is a Loooong walk through hails of STR 5-7 firepower that laughs off their t-shirts. STR 5 Crisis Suits can win a combat if the enemy is sufficiently weakened first if it comes to it (Gawds forbid).

So the orks took fire for three rounds up to that point, got to their sectors, and only ONE of the sectors, potentiallyy two, will be able to impact the battle further. The Tau player can now invade those two with massive firepower that would wither anyone and they have now done to the orks what the orks did to them: outnumbered them and probably outgunned them. The Tau just chose where to do it, whereas the orks kind of had their targets dictated ot them because they couldn't know who and what would come in where. Had to go to what was there or had to slow themselves down. And what ork army benefits from going slower? Lol. Not many.

So does that answer the question, or nay?

jazzpaintball wrote:Well Kenny, thank you for noticing my typo. I know how difficult it is to not attack someone for double hitting a key, so whatever.

In either case, when I come up against a long fang game, I will field my army in more of its entirety. You seem to be bludgeoning me due to the fact that I have not gone to a world renown tourney. I appologize for that, I will get right on that......

As far as the games go, I am having great success with this list. I am tired of explaining myself for my wins. When this list is no longer effective, I will try something else. I am always evolving the list, but just because It has not worked for you and others does not mean someone with the foresight can not win with this list.

I am done talking to the players of Singapore. Granted it is only the two in this thread, but if the other players are like yourselves, I will take that red and white flag as a warning and proceed with caution.

Ignorance is bliss, but it will lose you games.
That goes for everyone, even myself. And I GUARANTEE I am still ignorant because I don't win every game. Therefor I keep learning and evolving. I am proud of my ignorance for I can learn from it instead of being hindered by stupidity.

No, it's not your fault that you haven't been to the real competitive scene. This is a discussion forum, so I m just telling people that (in fact most are already well aware of that) this list will not work in the competitive scene.

So you say if you meet a Long Fang spam list (i m really surprised you havent, because it is one of the MOST common list around in current metagame) you will deploy the army as usual. In that case, you are already at a severe disadvantage as compared to your Tau counterparts (the standard lists) since your list severely lacks firepower. YOu mentioned "foresight". I m not doubting that you have it. But if you do have an idea, why not share with us how to deal with the list stated above?

Anyway, this is a discussion forum where people exchange ideas. No need to get personal/offended when people say your list doesnt work. The Nova Con is there in this dakka forum to read about. The games/battle reports are here. The list are here. You can read them yourself. You should be glad people tell you the truth instead of fabricating lies, telling you your list is wonderful and giving you false hopes. Ultimately, we all want to improve.

Jancoran wrote:Perhaps i should have said that while you may and will try to exchange some shots with the Broadside, but that is a death of one thousand paper cuts. it takes too long. Even with Las/Plas, the plasma portion of that can't hit anything until turn two (at which time there won't be six of the manymore, I think we can agree). 2+/4+ is no joke.

There is no 2+/4+. Lascannons are AP2... The broadsides only gets a 4+ cover, which is already factored into my math.

Jancoran wrote:I would never claim that something works all the time, but when you consider that the 6 las/Plas fire only six times in round 1 (and many armies don't have that same luxury, and some have more), you see that 4 hit and unfortunately, they aren't all hitting at the same time, so when the Shield Drone bounces one, the statistics actually become less and less likely of a UNIT kill. So the chances of killing the unit go down after each UNsuccessful hit, even though the chance of hitting doesn't change. Thats a little complicated for me to try and show here but hopefully the idea is easy enough.

I m not saying the lasc shots will kill the broadsides. I m just saying on average 1.666 model (from the broadside unit are expected to go down per turn. So first 1-2 turns you are stripping off the drones. After that, it's the broadsides that are eating and dying from the shots already. 1.666 x 4 turns = 6.666 models. Jazz's model count for the 100% heavy slot only have 6 model count in total.

In fact that's not even the case. His list has a drone attached to each broadside. Immediately after one drone is down, it is the broadside that is eating the lascannon shots already.

Jancoran wrote:It is unlikely that six shots can kill a Broadside unit (barring bad luck) but it IS likely to cause the morale check which is what you really wanted anyways. More to the point, the death of the broadside isn't necessarily that important after the first two rounds anyways. They really only have to do their jobs for two rounds. After that, it's gravy for the Tau player. Also, don't forget, there is one additional target you may want to include as important: the Pathfinders. Leaving them alive can be as dangerous as the broadsides at times.

As per my math above, a total of 6.666 models will die through the course of 4 turns, sometimes less, sometimes more, but average is what makes theoryhammering ticks. The 6 razorbacks is only a small part of the army. There are 18 others long fangs (15 missiles), and some speeders/dakka dreads. I understand your community don't play such competitive lists, but this is what the competitive scene is all about. Even if the LFs fire kraks at the pathfinders (and leave the commander alone so that he can pull of the positional relay every turn), the pathfinders are dying at a rate of : - 15 shots, 10 hits, 8.333 wounds, 4.166 dead PER TURN. The numbers are there - accurate. I didnt fabricate them. This is the disadvantage of presenting yourself piecemeal to the opponent. I pick your army apart.

Jancoran wrote:My opinion is that you want to do things for good sound reasons...not just reasons that just sound good. Is it to the Tau advantage to allow your {fill i nthe blanks} army to bring all its might to bear, all game long? To allow the Dark Reapers to bomb us endlessly? To allow the fast Vindicators to rumble up and just demolish our units in round 2? perhaps allowing Commander Shrike to sneak up and gank two broadsides by round 2? Or perhaps allo the Tervigons to outflank into us and just begin the slaughter? All those examples are about position and giving the enemy targets. The concept is why almost everyone agrees that you let Daemons and Dark Angels go first. Why? Give them no targets and overwhelm them with firepower of course. The Positional Relay just lets the Tau force the enemy to act somewhat like Daemons and Deathwing, if that makes sense.

But as per what i have written above, it now doesnt make sense to you, right? Daemons are daemons, they don't play like Tau.

So for the case of Tau, instead of forcing the SW army to exchange firepower with 100% of your Tau army, you allow 100% of the SW army to exchange fire with 30% of your Tau army, and then deal with the rest of your army bit by bit later on. This is hardly strategy. Even Jazz said he will deploy as normal. Seems like both of you don't see eye to eye?

Jancoran wrote:So the idea here is position. If the orks do the Waaaaaagh, and they cross the board in record time (and they will if their truks dont kill all of them first) , they are stil likely charging in round 3 when they charge (because the tau player will if he can go last and the ork will be only too glad to let him most of the time). that means it will be round 4 until they can do something else and thats IF the silly Broadside doesn't have the presence of mind to die when bidden to!

Erm Jancoran, i m surprised. A battlewagon moves 12inches a turn without rpj. 3 full turns of movement already means 36 inches. Disembacking is another 2 inches. Fleet is 1-6 inches, 6 inches if ghaz is in the army, and charge is another 1-6 inches. BW are open topped, so the orks can charge the turn they disemback, so they don't have to wait until turn 4 dude...

If you do the math yourself, you will realize turn 3 is the latest, and turn 2 the earliest.

Jancoran wrote:Where are the orks, top of 4? they are in three sectors (plus their backfield, so four). and it's 4th round. they have two rounds to get back to where they need to be. That is a Loooong walk through hails of STR 5-7 firepower that laughs off their t-shirts. STR 5 Crisis Suits can win a combat if the enemy is sufficiently weakened first if it comes to it (Gawds forbid).

Actually, there isnt hails of firepower. The 9 crisis suits only have 4 TL plasma, 2 TL Fusion, and 12 TL missile shots. That gives us 18 hits, 13.5 hits, 11.2 wounds, 7.5 dead orks after 5+ kff cover (i m not even talking about 4+ standard cover). And this is EVEN assuming the orks get shot off the wagons, which is highly unlikely because you only have 3 broadsides. That ork list will have about 50-60 boys, excluding deffkoptas, lootas, etc. 7.5 dead orks is hardly enough to "WEAKEN" them.

We haven't even talk about Nob bikers. They can move to any part of the board within 1 to 2 turns. The Tau list doesn't have any mechanism to stop them. So for e.g., after zooming to the extreme bottom left corner to bring down the broadsides, they can move to another edge of the board and be ready to assault into any other elements of the Tau list that has just entered the board. The Tau list has no bubble wrapping capabilities, so there is absolutely no way to tarpit the bikers.

This has been a very good thread in all honesty. Even with the debating that seems hostile at times. Its good to have opposition to your opinions, otherwise we would never see that we may be wrong.
I played Tau back in 2008/2009 and i did well with them. I went undefeated with them in my Very First Ard Boyz (first round) and had alot of success in local tourenys... Then SW and Blood Angels came out... the old dex started to frustrat me to the point that they went under my bed for the past 2/3 years and i gave in to the Power dexs. This thread with the tactical debating and seeing Jazz's crazy ideas has inspired me to get them out again. To go back to the drawing board. I want to playtest your reserve ideas, its something i never tried before and it could be a very big surprise but i see kenny's point. There are alot of SW/Ork/IG players in my area so i will have to dig deep and see what i can do with your tactics.
Congrats on 4th place, I love it when i see Tau or Orks (My current 2 old armies) taking a top spot in a tourney. Old dexs doing well gives hope that its still the player and not the dex.

Kenny wrote:
There is no 2+/4+. Lascannons are AP2... The broadsides only gets a 4+ cover, which is already factored into my math.

As per my math above, a total of 6.666 models will die through the course of 4 turns, sometimes less, sometimes more, but average is what makes theoryhammering ticks. The 6 razorbacks is only a small part of the army. There are 18 others long fangs (15 missiles), and some speeders/dakka dreads. I understand your community don't play such competitive lists, but this is what the competitive scene is all about. Even if the LFs fire kraks at the pathfinders (and leave the commander alone so that he can pull of the positional relay every turn), the pathfinders are dying at a rate of : - 15 shots, 10 hits, 8.333 wounds, 4.166 dead PER TURN. The numbers are there - accurate. I didnt fabricate them. This is the disadvantage of presenting yourself piecemeal to the opponent. I pick your army apart.

But as per what i have written above, it now doesnt make sense to you, right? Daemons are daemons, they don't play like Tau.

So for the case of Tau, instead of forcing the SW army to exchange firepower with 100% of your Tau army, you allow 100% of the SW army to exchange fire with 30% of your Tau army, and then deal with the rest of your army bit by bit later on. This is hardly strategy. Even Jazz said he will deploy as normal. Seems like both of you don't see eye to eye?

]Erm Jancoran, i m surprised. A battlewagon moves 12inches a turn without rpj. 3 full turns of movement already means 36 inches. Disembacking is another 2 inches. Fleet is 1-6 inches, 6 inches if ghaz is in the army, and charge is another 1-6 inches. BW are open topped, so the orks can charge the turn they disemback, so they don't have to wait until turn 4 dude...

If you do the math yourself, you will realize turn 3 is the latest, and turn 2 the earliest.


Actually, there isnt hails of firepower. The 9 crisis suits only have 4 TL plasma, 2 TL Fusion, and 12 TL missile shots. That gives us 18 hits, 13.5 hits, 11.2 wounds, 7.5 dead orks after 5+ kff cover (i m not even talking about 4+ standard cover). And this is EVEN assuming the orks get shot off the wagons, which is highly unlikely because you only have 3 broadsides. That ork list will have about 50-60 boys, excluding deffkoptas, lootas, etc. 7.5 dead orks is hardly enough to "WEAKEN" them.

We haven't even talk about Nob bikers. They can move to any part of the board within 1 to 2 turns. The Tau list doesn't have any mechanism to stop them. So for e.g., after zooming to the extreme bottom left corner to bring down the broadsides, they can move to another edge of the board and be ready to assault into any other elements of the Tau list that has just entered the board. The Tau list has no bubble wrapping capabilities, so there is absolutely no way to tarpit the bikers.

Kenny thanks for the replies. A Few things. One, you and I are not necessarily talking the same lingo here. let me address the above points singularly so we can be on the same page.

1st, I play with 2 Shield Drones and missed the fact that he plays with one. I would never take just one. My army always has two. So that was a small error on my part because i just blanked on that. I strongly recommend he take two, for all the reasons you cited. Changes things in a big way. With one drone he is far more vulnerable. Yet I see his broadsides game after game lasting to near the end if not the end. part of this is because objectives force new targets on you whe nteh Tau are popping up everywhere. Still, two drones is mucho advisable.

2nd, I don't think you're digesting the fact (and perhaps you will have to take my word on this) that the Broadsides do not NEED to survive past turn 3 (and maybe not even past turn 2 in some games), depending on who went first. That isn't the goal. Isolation is. In Warhammer, something will die no matter your best efforts. the goal of this approach is to make it happen on your terms, at a time that is most convenient for the Tau and least convenient for the opponent, and at a rate of attrition that is frustratingly dangerous for the opponent. I did not suggest you were fabricating anything. But if you spend 3-4 turns killing nothing but three singular Broadsides, they are likely to have done equal or better damage in that time. So the enemy must cut them down in the surest way they can: up close in personal. Exchanging shots with them until they die advantages the Tau, and not you.

On the statement about Daemons: I was telling you that the Tau force other armies into the same conundrum as deploying second against Daemons: theres no enemy, so where do i put my Daemons? Too close together for support and I'll Mishap. Too far apart, they get isolated. Too close to the enemy board edge, they get blasted. Too far, and they get whittled. So by not deploying against Daemons, you can often gain a tremendous advantage in both position and timing. The Tau sort of cause the enemy to have the same problems is what I meant.

You're getting hung up here on the idea that your 100% of the army can DO anything to my 20% during these first 2 rounds. Very few of the enemy units can really reach the Broadsides nor harm them in the first two turns. There are a few and they WILL try as they should, but really, what is the point of deploying fully with weapons I cannot reach you with and giving you your choice of targets when instead I can limit your shots and make them against the toughest thing in the force and wait til I am in range before shooting? In play, you will find that this IS strategy, a battle plan designed to minimze the enemy's chances, while not hurting my own. Like all battle plans, you may be forced to plan B. Thats good and healthy. But more often than not, plan A works very very well. i would not get up here and espouse thing I have not done or succeeded at. I am just trying to describe how it works in play, when plan A can continue to be plan A.

As for your contention that you could be on the Broadsides in turn 2: Not truly. the only time this is possible is when you are exactly and directly across from the target. The Broadside won't be. So it will be turn 3. Of course if he is not moving and firing, then I suppose you're right. But he will be. So no worries there. And again... Recall that I said all along that you we want you isolated over there. So you getting there faster isn't really contrary to the plan, is it? It just means we have a preference now as to which side we will want to flood.

In a game with Bikerz and the like, This seems a legit point. Consider though that the bikes survive their trip in (and some may), there must be no terrain they must avoid (turbo boosting disallows straight lines most of the time). Then yes perhaps If the Broadside doesn't move in those two turns... More likely, they will be turn 3 chargers though. Two rother easons, besides terrain and the broadside moving itself that it's more likley turn 3: First is, he will know you have Bikerz. The Pathfinder Devilfish with Disruption pod will probably just get deployed and move to slow you down in those two turns. No bubble wrap needed. An elegant solution and now it can attract fire for the broadsides (and is more or less not mission critical in and of itself)

The KFF is indeed a concern. I agree with you. KFF's being changed to 4+ in the FAQ is dumb, but it's a reality. But then the Tau player knows you have that too. So out come the Pathfinders in that case, to take it away. What I have seen very typically is four trucks and a battlewagon that form a flotilla up the middle, ready to scatter at the right WAAAAAGH moment, thusly all well protected. This is a tough one. it wont change the basics here, but lets face it, the more dice it takes to kill ANYTHING, the better the chances of having to go to plan B. The Pathfinders will help the Broadsides take out the battlewagon, and it will likely take all three. Immobilizing it makes the KFF get out and join another trukk, which slows them down and gives the Tau yet more time to do damage. But i cannot have a crystal ball to see what would happen there. The KFF is really good though and I don't want to discount it, lest you question my credibility. But again, the point is isolation so at some point the KFF will not be there to protect them and it is then that the flood gates open. and again, based on where the KFF is will probably have a lot to do with which side the flood gates open. That brings us back to the beginning really.

The thing about this is, its a fluid strategy. You can alter it ever so slightly for the type of opponent you face. It works in the general sense against all types.

The army can handle all the primary and most likely armies, and while Hordes provide the greatest challenge, by far, even they can be somewhat handled by the volume of fire, piranha flechette dischargers and the Fire Warriors + tanks themsevles. STR 5 fusilades are pretty cool, says ANY horde army, once the KFF's loactaion is isolated.

The real weakness of the army is that hordes can tie this type of army a little easier as long as its not a KP mission. A smart Horde general will see the way to do that, but the question is, will a tie be enough? is that what your ork horde really came to do? tie? Lol. Probably not. But I can admit without shame that a Horde can be played to tie this army and then its a matter of a staring contest. who gives in to blood lust first. Hehehehe. But in KP missiones, Hordes will not like this any more than anyone else does. In fact when i designed this army, it was specifically designed because of KP's originally. All the tactics sort of came afterwards.

Long posts. I've enjoyed the discourse Kenny and I hope you will look at this dispassionately and take from it the valuable parts. A good Tau general will be thinking some of these things. You can also read about some of my other takes on my blog: 40KUnorthodoxy.blogspot.com if you want. Or not. =)

jazzpaintball wrote:I know.... I am a Tau nerd... and I love it,

I love it. I can really appreciate this as well.

Congratulations on placing well.

Something to this effect has already been said, but tabletop generals win games not lists.

We could make a long list of players who consistently place well with what the internets might call 'unorthodox' lists.

Keep up the good work.

Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:I know.... I am a Tau nerd... and I love it,

I love it. I can really appreciate this as well.

Congratulations on placing well.

Something to this effect has already been said, but tabletop generals win games not lists.

We could make a long list of players who consistently place well with what the internets might call 'unorthodox' lists.

Keep up the good work.

Thank you.

Post deleted.

Reds8n

Jancoran I really like the out of the box thinking.

From reading this thread i believe there are differences in the army composition between your and the OP's army list. I am very interested in your list. could you please post it for us and give us a little talk about why you have included the unit selection.

I did not get to play vs this list. I played next to him on his first game. He played well vs necrons with a player that liked odd list. He then went on to win two games straight. The tourny he went to has a good mix of players and skill levels.
Thiere are some very competivite player thier. I know I.m one of them. There is a a SW, BA, IG, Two GK with diffrent list that travel to the big tourny to play. To the people that saying show me the math. The math only works so far. Its good for a avg. thats all. I won many games with my Tryanids that the math said i should have lost.

I hope he is coming up to the next tourny as i would love to play him at that point lvl. 1000 to 1500 tau can do real good with.

As for SW long fang spam. I love it. We don't see it alot here as a lot of players have hard counter for it. I know my tyranids do.

Waffles countinue the hard work.

Talon