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The Mad Tanker wrote:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Commissar#Commissar_Training_Squads

Commissars in training fight in the fiercest battles so they can learn what the soldiers they are going to be inspire and disciple some day have to go through.

This doesn't mean that the Commissar-Cadets will be leading the front-line charge with the Guardsmen. Sure, they'll be up there with the front-line units, but they're learning how to be Commissars, not how to be Guardsmen. They're expected to carry out the duties of the Commissariat in one of the most difficult environments to do so in. This is, in effect, an extreme form of on-the-job training. After all, when a Commissar is needed, and where one is best employed, is not in being just another guy with a lasrifle, but standing behind actual Guardsmen ensuring that they hold the line and bring death to the foes of the Emperor.

ok, 1stly the Kasrkin and Stormtroopers are, "fluffwise", supposed to be like Halo spartans; near perfect shots, master hand to hand, limited genetic enhancement in some cases (some Kasrkin) to give them more strength, speed and endurance. I say fluffwise since stormies have been nerfed for ever.

2ndly there are multiple paths to the Commisariat, stormtroopers and even IG Officers can become Commisars

3rdly Commisars have differing styles, some lead from the front some stay at the back with a bolt pistol. some inspire and some rule by fear.

as for commisars not being elite, they are the equal or better than stormtroopers as far as training or ability goes.

Marbo is the equivalent of a Spartan Look at his fluff and he has more accomplishments than a Warmaster.

Lord Commander Phyrus wrote:ok, 1stly the Kasrkin and Stormtroopers are, "fluffwise", supposed to be like Halo spartans; near perfect shots, master hand to hand, limited genetic enhancement in some cases (some Kasrkin) to give them more strength, speed and endurance. I say fluffwise since stormies have been nerfed for ever.

2ndly there are multiple paths to the Commisariat, stormtroopers and even IG Officers can become Commisars

3rdly Commisars have differing styles, some lead from the front some stay at the back with a bolt pistol. some inspire and some rule by fear.

as for commisars not being elite, they are the equal or better than stormtroopers as far as training or ability goes.

Failed Commissars becomes Storm Troopers, so Commissars are very elite fighters.

Lord Commander Phyrus wrote:ok, 1stly the Kasrkin and Stormtroopers are, "fluffwise", supposed to be like Halo spartans

Hmm, I'd say that Halo Spartans are more analogous with Space Marines, personally.

3rdly Commisars have differing styles, some lead from the front some stay at the back with a bolt pistol. some inspire and some rule by fear.

Agree here.

as for commisars not being elite, they are the equal or better than stormtroopers as far as training or ability goes.

Disagree here. Again, they're two different skill sets with separate battlefield roles. I'd say as individuals, Commissars have to have the utmost strength of will, able to execute a commanding presence over his troops no matter what position he takes on the battlefield. He must both display and evoke an ironclad faith in the Emperor at all times, he's the one making inspections of troops equipment, checking that each Guardsman isn't defacing their Uplifting Primer, spouting litanies and prayers to arouse, inspire and invigorate. A Storm Trooper, on the other hand, holds no interest in such things. Their role is to fly in (often literally via Valkyrie), operating as tight-knit units that rely on fast and efficient teamwork, storm the enemy stronghold, kill the main baddy, secure intelligence, sabotage strategically important assets to the enemy, spearhead assaults through stubborn enemy defences, etc etc . . . and then (if they haven't died completing their objective) get out again, probably with little desire or need to even speak to or acknowledge the regulars (unless it forms part of their objective, obviously).

Now of course, it may well be that these exploits inspire other Guardsmen, but it's completely unintentional on the STs part - they're much too focused on getting their job done, whereas it's a Commissars express interest and function. Of course, a particular Commissar's MO and particular strengths will differ from agent to agent, and they will of course have to be trained to perform their role on the front lines, the result being that one Commissar may well be more of a soldier in attitude and behaviour, while another may only be comfortable sitting in the HQ tent, signing execution orders and filing infraction reports etc. In the end, it's not really a case of Commissars being "equal to or better than" Storm Troopers in ability and training, as they're completely different.

Commissars are elite, they are too often parodied. Basically they are Navy SEALS with the responsibility to maintain discipline. The failed commissars becomes Storm-Troopers for God's sake.

Unfortunately they are also heavily a product of memetic mutation as they are either the goody-too-shoes like Cain, Yarrick and Gaunt. Or they are complete monsters and idiots who execute soldiers for idiot reasons, I personally don't think having mental disorders is a good way of being a commie. I think a normal commissar is somewhere inbetween, a commie executing Storm Troopers for flimsy reasons would likely quickly be executed by a more competent commissar if not fragged.

Yet no-one picks up that they are political officers, which for me likely means they take a heavy part in promotions within regiments which can determine how good a regiment is at the field. A competent commissar would pick the best qualified officers within a regiment.

Beaviz81 wrote:Commissars are elite, they are too often parodied. Basically they are Navy SEALS with the responsibility to maintain discipline. The failed commissars becomes Storm-Troopers for God's sake.

No one's arguing that they're not elite, of course they are, they have to be some of the Imperium's most faithful and strong-willed subjects. However, they're just not elite in the same manner as purely martial elite units. The training and battlefield role of SEALS simply doesn't cater for the maintaining of discipline and the political overseeing of troops wholesale, and vice-versa. Plus, saying that "failed commissars become Storm Troopers" is a vast oversimplification. Both are progena, sure, but failed cadets may seek many other paths within several of the Administratum's organisations, or even find service as a Penal Officer or Rogue Trader asset. If a failed cadet chooses (and is allowed) to try for the Storm Trooper regiment, they will no doubt have to enrole in additional training regimens and pass selection like all the others. Knowing how to be a political officer just isn't relevant enough for the STs highly specialised role(s) on the battlefield.

Oh being a commie means that you must prove yourself to be as good or preferably better than any man in your regiment from pistol-range to melee. Also commies serve in Storm Troopers units, and it's difficult to cause fear towards men that can kick your ass. Of course the ludicrous attire of them are less appealing, but also speaks volumes of their courage, they dare to dress up so every amateur sniper easily can bring you down.

Beaviz81 wrote:Commissars are elite, they are too often parodied. Basically they are Navy SEALS with the responsibility to maintain discipline. The failed commissars becomes Storm-Troopers for God's sake.

This isn't true.

"Failed commissars" don't just instantly become Stormtroopers. They get sent back to the Schola Progenium and retrained.

Beaviz81 wrote:Oh being a commie means that you must prove yourself to be as good or preferably better than any man in your regiment from pistol-range to melee.

Sure, they are trained to serve and fight alongside regular Guardsmen. A Commissar who can't survive on the front lines isn't going to be good at urging troops forward or punishing retreating cowards.

Also commies serve in Storm Troopers units, and it's difficult to cause fear towards men that can kick your ass.

Doubt it. Storm Troopers are progena - they come from schools and academies run by the Ecclesiarchy, and are therefore indoctrinated to a far stronger and harder degree in the Imperial Cult when compared to regular Guardsmen. Their dicipline and devotion to the Emperor is matched only by the Commissars themselves and the Sisters of Battle (the latter actually probably exceed the STs, and for all intents and purposes, are the female equivalent on an educational level).

SOB, ST's, ecclesiarchy priests, commies and even some inquisitors come from the schola progenium, all this means is that their parents were agents of some branch of the Imperium that were both killed, or that they were orphans of the IG officer class. and while the progenium instills an instinctive loyalty and faith in the Emperor, ST units are still under the auspices of the Departmento Munitorum and thus will require the apointment of a commisar.

That said not all 'stormtroopers' are progenii, Kasrkin for one are pulled from the entirety of the Cadian Millitary much like modern day SF.

now i dont know about failed commies becoming ST's but we know for a fact that ST can become commisars (Redemption Corps, BL) and that officers can undergo extra training to take over commiasarial duties (Cadian Blood, BL)

That said not all 'stormtroopers' are progenii, Kasrkin for one are pulled from the entirety of the Cadian Millitary much like modern day SF.

Kasrkin are not members of the Stormtrooper Regiment (of which, apparently, there is only one). They're a similar organization, in just about every way, but Cadian-specific. Cadia, of course, being the Planet of the Exceptions That Prove The Rule. They are "stormtroopers", yes, but not "Stormtroopers".

Lord Commander Phyrus wrote:ST units are still under the auspices of the Departmento Munitorum and thus will require the apointment of a commisar.

First I've heard of it. A Commissar would be wasted on them, and in all likelyhood only serve to slow them down on their highly specialised, lightening-quick special operations. A Commissar is attached to the rank and file in order to ensure men don't mentally break under the pressure of sustained combat and turn tail. Storm Troopers are conditioned, through hardened training (both mental and physical) to not do this. They get in, do their job, and, Emperor willing, get out again to do it all over again the next day/on the next battlefield.

That said not all 'stormtroopers' are progenii, Kasrkin for one are pulled from the entirety of the Cadian Millitary much like modern day SF.

I'm pretty sure that they are. Kasrkin are not Storm Troopers, they are the Cadian-exclusive battlefield equivalent, meaning they use the same equipment and perform the same roles (spearheading assaults, storming heavily fortified positions, behind-enemy-lines lightening raids, etc), but they are of separate origin and are a separate outfit.

Anfauglir wrote:I'm pretty sure that they are. Kasrkin are not Storm Troopers, they are the Cadian-exclusive battlefield equivalent, meaning they use the same equipment and perform the same roles (spearheading assaults, storming heavily fortified positions, behind-enemy-lines lightening raids, etc), but they are of separate origin and are a separate outfit.

True. IIRC, The Kasrkin are considered the Elite of the Cadian military and as such have earned the rank of Kasrkin. Actually here's Lexicanum's entry for Kasrkin

Lexicanum wrote:Kasrkin are part of the Imperial Guard structure and are dedicated to the security of Cadia. Their name comes from the title of the fortress-cities of Cadia, which are called "Kasrs".

These are the elite of the already superior Cadian military and are picked up while still serving as Whiteshields in the Cadian armed forces. Their training is comparable, if not better to that of Storm Troopers (they are the Cadian equivalent) and they are utterly dedicated to the preservation of Cadia, whereas Storm Troopers are indoctrinated to the defense of the entire Imperium.

They are highly trained in the use of numerous weapons, and are armoured with Carapace armour. They have an ethos of duty and honour and a devotion to the Emperor that is impressive for members of the Imperial Guard. Whereas the standard Storm Trooper is looked down upon in envy by Imperial Guardsmen, the standard Kasrkin is looked up to with favour, commonly amongst Cadian infantry and armoured regiments, for their cool-headed composure during combat. They are the ultimate warrior to fight against the enemies of the Imperium (such as the forces of Chaos), and they lead the charge in the defense of Cadia. To be a Kasrkin is to hold a position of honour, and all Cadians recognize this.

This. This is what I've always understood Kasrkin to be and as such I believe to be entirely seperate from Stormtroopers in a sense.

They are rough equivilents of each other.

Yes, the Stormtrooper Regiment and the Kasrkin fill similar roles and have, more or less, identical training (and wargear), but neither will be found in the battle-formations of the other, as they're separate units, even though they do, basically, the exact same job.

Fluff-wise, though, you may find Stormtrooper units on almost any battlefield in the Imperium (if they're needed) but you'll find Kasrkin only on Cadia or its immediate neighbors.

Psienesis wrote:
Fluff-wise, though, you may find Stormtrooper units on almost any battlefield in the Imperium (if they're needed) but you'll find Kasrkin only on Cadia or its immediate neighbors.

Well, I'd go as far to say that Kasrkin will go wherever Cadian regiments go, no matter how far from Cadia. I know they're deployed on Golgotha in Gunheads, but then, maybe Golgotha is relatively close to Cadia, I don't know (but they refer to it as a "backwater", implying this isn't the case).

I'd say fluff-wise, if you're fielding Cadians you can field Kasrkin just fine, any time any place. I imagine the only real difference between the two is when it comes to deployment time and the DM says, "hey Cadians, it's pretty rough down there, you sure you don't want any Storm Troopers " and they reply, "nah it's s'kay - we brought our own! ".

Right, but Cadian regiments really only go strolling about the galaxy on the table-top. In the fluff, Cadian regiments pretty much stay on Cadia, excepting certain crusades or other major undertakings in support of other Guard regiments. Of course, the table-top battles can be part of a given Crusade force or w/e.

Given what we've seen of Cadia, they seem to be plenty busy just holding the line from various uprisings, cults and what-not that they really don't need to go looking for a fight.

Actually, Cadia sends regiments everywhere. they are still IG and are sent where needed.

Cadians, Catachans, Elysians, Stormtroopers, and Veteran Platoons in general would all count as "elite" units imo.

As mentioned on page 1 Kasrkin are treated as a 'Grenadier' type - basically they're IG troops that are trained and equipped to storm trooper standards but are technically not storm troopers. And I think based on the old doctrine stuff rom the previous IG codex (prior to 5th) you could even have both in your regiments.

One of the funny things I always wondered is whether or not the 'Grenadier' regiments we periodically hear about in fluff (Like in Armageddon, or the Space wolf novels, or Deathwatch RPG) are equipped to storm trooper standard as well. I know the ones in Deathwatch were implied to be, but I dont know about the others.

Bear in mind 'Elite' is a very context-specific label. I mean IIRC the Cadians are sometimes depicted as being the inspiration which many lesser Guard regiments aspire to so that could be elite. Or there are the Catachans - given all they've bene reputed to do and how hardcore they're supposed to be you might call them elite. By Munitourm standarts, the Death Korps might be elites because they're produced in large numbers, are fanatically loyal, do what they're told without question, and hve no fear of dying to achieve their purpose - basically the sort of ideal trooper they wish all Guardsmen could be. you could probably go on and on depending on how your criteria goes (what about Elysians? They get some high tech gear most other regiments don't. Or maybe the Terrax Guard? How about the Steel Legion?)

Connor MacLeod wrote:One of the funny things I always wondered is whether or not the 'Grenadier' regiments we periodically hear about in fluff (Like in Armageddon, or the Space wolf novels, or Deathwatch RPG) are equipped to storm trooper standard as well. I know the ones in Deathwatch were implied to be, but I dont know about the others.

Grenadier companies of the Death Korp Siege Regiments wear what is widely regarded as a heavy & uncomfortable set of carapace 'plates' and the hellgun they carry is temperamental, even by hellgun standards. Could be said they're not equipped in the same manner as the Stormtroopers, although their hellguns have all sorts of nifty things attached, like Stormtroopers hellguns, but the Grenadiers don't use them because of the constant calibration required.

By Munitourm standarts, the Death Korps might be elites because they're produced in large numbers, are fanatically loyal, do what they're told without question, and hve no fear of dying to achieve their purpose - basically the sort of ideal trooper they wish all Guardsmen could be.

They are also, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, considered to be among the best bayonet fighters within the Imperial Guard.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:Grenadier companies of the Death Korp Siege Regiments wear what is widely regarded as a heavy & uncomfortable set of carapace 'plates' and the hellgun they carry is temperamental, even by hellgun standards. Could be said they're not equipped in the same manner as the Stormtroopers, although their hellguns have all sorts of nifty things attached, like Stormtroopers hellguns, but the Grenadiers don't use them because of the constant calibration required.

I'm pretty sure Forgeworld requires all the Guard regiments it features to have bulky and uncomfortable armour. The Cadians had it (even though the plates look damn thin and not bulky in the artwork), and the Tallarn had it. In fact I think only the Elysians got away in that regard and I'm not 100% sure even then. Flak in Forge World definitions also tends to be solid plates entirely (which differs from other depictions, funny enough.) I dont think they even bothered issuing regular krieg troopers with armour - just pauldrons and helmets.

I also remember the Krieg Grenadiers having fancy scopes n stuff on their gear, but they were considered temperamental and often weren't used. Which makes you wonder why they had them attachyed to begin with but, oh well...

Kasrkin of course have more full body armor and fancier doodads. I think it was outlined in Dark HEresy: Ascension or something.

They are also, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, considered to be among the best bayonet fighters within the Imperial Guard.

Well thats one thing. I'd say that the Munitorum would value their total obedience more - meaning they're useful at going in and killing anyone who opposes the Imperium (Munitorum's) will.

Connor MacLeod wrote: I dont think they even bothered issuing regular krieg troopers with armour - just pauldrons and helmets.

Well they could be argued as having flak coats although IA5:SoVraks 1 mentions them as being heavy chemically treated greatecoats. It could be that because Korpsmen are so dispensable that giving the infantry sections armour would be a waste of time & resources - pauldrons allow the easy placement of section/company/regiment markings as well as rank markings. As for their helmets? Every army in WW1 had helmets, so makes sense the Death Korp do too, I suppose.

Well thats one thing. I'd say that the Munitorum would value their total obedience more - meaning they're useful at going in and killing anyone who opposes the Imperium (Munitorum's) will.

The bayonet fighting thing is in addition to all other elements. I didn't mean it in regard to what the Munitorum would want, just that it adds another string to the Death Korps bow when it comes to their plus points. Hear so much about the Cadians being awesome shots & fighters that it's nice to redress the balance with Krieg at times.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:
Grenadier companies of the Death Korp Siege Regiments wear what is widely regarded as a heavy & uncomfortable set of carapace 'plates' and the hellgun they carry is temperamental, even by hellgun standards. Could be said they're not equipped in the same manner as the Stormtroopers, although their hellguns have all sorts of nifty things attached, like Stormtroopers hellguns, but the Grenadiers don't use them because of the constant calibration required.

Thats in IA mind you, in Dead Men Walking its a hellgun galore and Grenadiers use Valkyries to scout the city.

It is indeed but I don't see how a BL novel could override what is in an IA, considering the IA books break down the individual forces in quite some detail. In IA5:SoV1 they focused a page to the Grenadier & his equipment - basically that should be treated as the standard foundation and anything else is either dependant upon the situation within the writing or dramatic license.

Yes.

You have scouts (light carapace, camo cloaks, light lasguns and recon equipment, sniper rifles, etc), grenadiers (heavy carapace, heavy lasguns, close combat equipment, assault weapons, etc), and so on and so forth that fill the ranks of elite amongst the Guard.

First off elite compared to what? We are talking about the 40k universe here and there are lots of elite badasses all over the galaxy. That being said you're average guardsman while weak compared to an astartes is still the cream of the crop of human warriors. Guardsman are the best soldiers drawn from each planets existing Planetary Defence Force. You also need to remember that guardsman number in the billions. They exist to fight, die and hold back the tide until the Astartes show up. There are no truely "elite" guardsman but I consider their tanks elite. They pick up the slack. Leman Russ Battle Tank... Say no more

~Lion~

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:First off elite compared to what? We are talking about the 40k universe here and there are lots of elite badasses all over the galaxy. That being said you're average guardsman while weak compared to an astartes is still the cream of the crop of human warriors. Guardsman are the best soldiers drawn from each planets existing Planetary Defence Force. You also need to remember that guardsman number in the billions. They exist to fight, die and hold back the tide until the Astartes show up. There are no truely "elite" guardsman but I consider their tanks elite. They pick up the slack. Leman Russ Battle Tank... Say no more

~Lion~

That is incorrect. If the role of the Guard was to hold until Marines arrive... they should better wait seated because there is simply not enough marines to cover all the campaigns the IG is involved in any given time, not even sending only one Marine . That is an erroneous paradigm most people use. The Guard is a fully capable organization with all the means required to finish most of their tasks off (in their own way fo course). In fact, if Marine fluff were not so restrictive about their creation process -which is rather dull- and don't follow the traditional 1000 chapters of 1000 men, it would be much more credible for Marines to be present in a bigger chunk of engagements. They are simply so very few to be an important actor galaxywide. Therefore, the Imperium needs a very capable army to defend and conquer territory. That is the Guard

Raulmichile wrote:That is incorrect. If the role of the Guard was to hold until Marines arrive... they should better wait seated because there is simply not enough marines to cover all the campaigns the IG is involved in any given time, not even sending only one Marine . That is an erroneous paradigm most people use. The Guard is a fully capable organization with all the means required to finish most of their tasks off (in their own way fo course). In fact, if Marine fluff were not so restrictive about their creation process -which is rather dull- and don't follow the traditional 1000 chapters of 1000 men, it would be much more credible for Marines to be present in a bigger chunk of engagements. They are simply so very few to be an important actor galaxywide. Therefore, the Imperium needs a very capable army to defend and conquer territory. That is the Guard

Well said sir! The Guard is more than capable of fighting and winning its wars without the Astartes turning up to take all the credit.