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ZebioLizard2 wrote:Magic is perhaps the most random, and most erratic thing in the game, because you need a Level 4 magic or else you die.

Except for when a no slaan monster spam list goes against shadow Delves and compleetly stomps all over them is what you mean right?

HoverBoy wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Magic is perhaps the most random, and most erratic thing in the game, because you need a Level 4 magic or else you die.

Except for when a no slaan monster spam list goes against shadow Delves and compleetly stomps all over them is what you mean right?

As an Ogre Kingdom player who dislikes how many of the major "Bomb" spells are Initiative based., there isn't enough iron blasters to make shadow users suffer just right yet.

LunaHound wrote:Fantasy is more fun, but I dont consider moving giant blocks of infantry fun....

More tactics in fantasy though, and pre measuring allowed!

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440151a&prodId=prod1095472
Problem solved.

Because you can have a army of evil goatmen bendt on world domination

Best advice for big blocks of units...

Build movement trays. They make the game 100, nay, 1000x better.

Buy piece of thin wood from hobby store and use a bandsaw/dremel/any other means, make some borders for it and there you go.

I went to Michael's (he went to jarred) and picked up some thin boards and these little wooden thin sticks, went to my band saw, layed down the outline of my block and sketched. I now have 1 tray for 36 (6x6), 3 trays for 30 (6x5, which can be flipped sideways for 5x6), 4 trays of 25 (5x5), and 2 trays for 10 (for calvary). All in a matter of 20 minutes.

I find fantasy too random. Magic is over powered. Blocks slamming together.

40k might be more list orientated but fantasy is more swingy.

Ive had 2 poeple now refuse to play against my wolves because of JOTWW, this pit of shades sounds very intimidating.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Just remember that magic is far more devastating than psykers. If you thought JOTWW was bad wait till a Pit of Shades hits your mob and destroys half your army before you get to move.

Magic is perhaps the most random, and most erratic thing in the game, because you need a Level 4 magic or else you die.

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hahahahha, WHFB version of epic movement stands

Muppas wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Fantasy is more fun, but I dont consider moving giant blocks of infantry fun....

More tactics in fantasy though, and pre measuring allowed!

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440151a&prodId=prod1095472
Problem solved.

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cool thanks for the advice

Abyssel wrote:Best advice for big blocks of units...

Build movement trays. They make the game 100, nay, 1000x better.

Buy piece of thin wood from hobby store and use a bandsaw/dremel/any other means, make some borders for it and there you go.

I went to Michael's (he went to jarred) and picked up some thin boards and these little wooden thin sticks, went to my band saw, layed down the outline of my block and sketched. I now have 1 tray for 36 (6x6), 3 trays for 30 (6x5, which can be flipped sideways for 5x6), 4 trays of 25 (5x5), and 2 trays for 10 (for calvary). All in a matter of 20 minutes.

I have the biggest dilemma. Lore of Death or Shadow on my lvl 4 Shaman?

How do magic users level up?

Magic level is a upgrade you buy.

It's word for word 35 points to get one of my Shaman from lvl 1 to 2 and about 50 for a lvl 3 to get a lvl 4.

Normal Bray Shaman start at lvl 1 and a Greater Shaman is lvl 3 at the start. Difference is the former is a hero the latter is a lord. Which I can actually use lords now that their included at lower lvl games and not something you unlock at 2000 point game.

whats the level cap, and what do the different level give the wizard?

level cap is 4. basically if a wizard is lvl1 or 2 it gets 50pts of item upgrades and if it's 3 or 4 it gets 100 pts. Also, level determines how many spells they can access, although there are items that allow some wizards to take extra spells.

Wizard levels are a simple measure of their power.

Level 1 = +1 on casting/dispel attempts, and they know 1 spell
Level 2 = +2 and 2 spells

And so on all the way to 4.

That said, there are items and army rules that improve those outside of the level structure.

Dispel scroll caddies exist for a reason, as do armies hell bent on stopping magic.

Ogre's die to initive tests I agree, most things also die to move and fire cannons warhammer fantasy is pretty tit for tat in terms of things. Dwarves, good at stopping magic, not much magic themselves, powerful artillary. Ogres, have soso magic, not good vs I check magic, have cannons that can move and fire as well as charge with the impact hits of a chariot. Chaos have good magic, strong troops, absolutely no shooting besides magic and a single type of cannon (in which multiples of them are often banned)

Take the level 4 casters as you like, but I think that the OP hint towards them should be slightly reconsidered when you take into consideration there points cost and ease of being killed unless a good deal of points are taken to make sure they stay alive from things way too many people take for granted.

As has been said before its a game of rock paper scissors with several different item options and dozens of tactics, you cannot hope to be solid against everything. You'll see a topic going on in the forums now someone is looking for an army that doesn't have a hard counter, its really just not possible there will always be someone who messes you up whether its a caster lvl 4 or a lord on dragon, or move and shoot cannons, or reroll artillery cannons. Take your pick ;o

I am currently running two armies (Lizards and WoC) without a L4 and doing very well. I agree that a L4 is a better option, mostly because combat lords are not point efficient. I am on a mission to play all of my armies without a L4 (working on an Empire army now) just to prove internetz wisdom wrong. Every army has items that help counter magic. Lizards can take a scroll + cube of darkness. WoC has the Puppet, which forces opponents to be careful about trying to force an IF, hence making it easier to stop that one critical spell. Ogres have the Hellheart that can effectively shut down a magic phase before it begins, not to mention puts the opponent’s casters at risk. They also have Deathfister to strip those levels off opponent wizards. My Empire will feature multiple Warrior priests and a couple of the goodies available (until the new book comes out). Finally, MSU is the ultimate counter to the big spells.

To the OP, if you are thinking about TK, you may want to start with another army. TK is deemed the weakest of the new books and can be a challenge to play. With that said, I am a big proponent of painting up and playing what you really like.

Hinge

I moved from 40k to fantasy because of many reasons - setting, armies being fair and no power creep etc. But the main reason is the 'realism' in the game compared to 40k. There are many rules which can get bent or make no sense what so ever in 40k, whereas the fantasy rules are very very very good! So in a game of fantasy you don't really think "hang on that doesn't make sense!" as you do in 40k. The modifiers for shooting, attacks on certain armour types and the like really is fantastic - to mention one aspect. The game really is like 2nd ed 40k when the rules were not dumbed down as they are now.
Another thing (and the main reason my friend has moved over) in fantasy you'll face anything; skaven vs vampire counts or empire vs lizard men-the list goes on! Which is such a breath of fresh air from 40k which is normally "you'll face the latest army release or a very high chance - a space marine army"!

lakemacleod wrote:How do magic users level up?

They don't, they learn at level 4 then loose levels with miscasts...

Lose levels? That sounds fairly ridiculous.

Well it's like this you mess with magic too much and it will mess with you.
So be carefull

Wizards in fantasy don't have inherent magic abilities they can call on a whim. They need to borrow from whats called the Winds of Magic. Sometimes the winds will not blow in their favor, and they pay for it.IT's like trying to make brownies and you accidentally made a pipe bomb.

lakemacleod wrote:Lose levels? That sounds fairly ridiculous.

it's rare. They have to roll a miscast and then roll a 10-12 on the miscast table from 2D6. It's hardly anything to worry about and not even really significant (Wizard would probably die first before losing a level).

I'm glad i'm not the only one that happens to.

Abyssel wrote:Wizards in fantasy don't have inherent magic abilities they can call on a whim. They need to borrow from whats called the Winds of Magic. Sometimes the winds will not blow in their favor, and they pay for it.IT's like trying to make brownies and you accidentally made a pipe bomb.

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Cool so kinda very ish like perils, instead of a save its a level, cool. So how are tomb kings with magic? Any different from the other armies? And what determines what spells they cast? If someone could explain the whole magic system actually that would be great, i read it in the rulebook but would like an additional explanation/

Beginning of the game, for each wizard you roll 2D6. From what I understand no duplication of spells. Meaning if I have 3 wizards, 2 level 2's and a level 4 (what I usually run) The level 4 and the level 2 will roll on the Lore of Tzeentch, theres only 6 spells so I'll know all the spells from that lore, since there is no duplicates. The other wizard will pick from the Lore of Death for his two. Each wizard will only know so many spells equal to his level. So for the level 4 wizard, he will roll 4D6 when choosing his spells, the level 2, 2D6 for his, so on and so forth. Roll your D6 and there are 6 spells per lore with a Signature Spell that you can take in place of any spell. (ie if you don't like it or you think that wizard will be unable to cast it without using an absurd amount of dice). When you roll all the dice for choosing your spells, any doubles will allow you to pick a spell of your choosing. IE if I roll my level 4 wizard spells, and I roll a 2 3 3 and a 5, I take the 3rd spell from the lore and I am allowed to pick a spell of my choosing from that same lore.

Magic phase is after regular movement. You roll 2D6 and thats how many spell dice you get for a power pool. Your opponent gets the higher dice for dispell dice. Say you rolled a 6 and a 3, you get 9 D6 to cast spells and your opponent gets 6 D6 to try and dispell whatever he likes.

Wizard levels add to the total amount for casting a spell. So say with my level 4 I try to cast a spell that needs a 10+.

I'll choose 2D6 to try and cast it. Lets say I rolled a 3 and a 5.

3+5 = 8, but add the wizards level so 3+5+4 = 12, since I needed a 10 or higher to cast and I got a 12 it will go off.

Now the opponent can choose to try and dispell that spell you just cast, he needs to roll a 12 or higher to dispell it (adding in his wizards level that is trying to dispell.)

If you roll any double 6's the spell is cast with what is known as Irresistible Force. It cannot be dispelled. It has a draw back, an Irresistible Force will cause a Miscast after the spell goes off.

To dispell, if you roll a double 6, its called an Irresistible Dispell, it automatically dispells regardless of how high the casting total was but it will not miscast.

Remains in play spell is remain in play until it is dispelled by the opposing player in their magic phase or by an item that dispells. Note that a remains in play spell only needs the original casting total for it to be dispelled, IE if a remains in play spell needs a 10+ to cast and i cast it with a total of 18, the opposing player on their turn needs a 10+. [Edit] Note that the opposing player can choose to dispell a remains in play spell when it is cast for the total that the person who cast it rolled. The spell will not go off in that case just like any other spell.

Rinse and repeat until you are out of power dice or have no more spells to cast.

Now Tomb Kings in specific.

Tomb Kings can bring back the soldiers with augment spells. An augment spell is a buff to your troops.

The undead lore they use has 3 augment spells, 2 hex's, and a vortex. Hex's debuff enemies and a vortex is just that, a vortex that doesn't go away until it is dispelled or a condition is met, or if it specifies otherwise.

When a liche priest augments a friendly undead unit, that unit regains D3+1 wounds worth of models in that unit (note they can not go over the original starting strength.)

Tomb Kings also have a banner that regenerates D6+4 wounds worth of models, it is a bound spell 5+ which means you need a 5 or higher total to cast from the banner.

Note Tomb Kings must have a wizard in the army, and the highest level is nominated as this special wizard whom must pick from the lore of nekretarian undead (may have spelled that wrong.)

Hope that helps.

[EDIT]
Let it be noted that a Miscast is sort of like a perils but not. It's not a double 6 you fail and he must pass 2 invul saves and double 1's means it goes off but he must do the same.

A miscast is much more serious in Fantasy.

There is a table for miscast's that you must roll on if you get double 1's or double 6's. You roll 2D6 and consult the chart. Your wizard has a good chance of nuking himself and anyone around him with a large blast template thats STR 10, (remember no instant death with the exception of the USR Killing Blow) or losing Power Dice, or being degraded wizard levels.

Also a note, any roll of a natural 1 or 2 for the total results in the wizard losing his concentration and he cannot cast spells for the rest of that magic phase. Other wizards can still cast there spells.

Thanks man i appreciate you taking the time for such a thorough reply, but what exactly did you mean about the last sentance? *Also a note, any roll of a natural 1 or 2 for the total results in the wizard losing his concentration and he cannot cast spells for the rest of that magic phase. Other wizards can still cast there spells.*

Its not slow, it just takes more time because there is more to do. Also the entire rule set is not overpowered and broken by the top 3 codices (or army books in this case).

What I mean is, if I went to cast a spell with my level 4 wizard, and the spell needs a 5+ to cast, so I use 1D6 because he is level 4, and I roll a 2, even though I totaled 6, the spell will not go off, and the wizard cannot cast again for that phase. Other wizards besides my level 4 may still cast though.

Roll 2D6 for a spell and get double 1's, than he loses concentration as well as a miscast.

Dude miscasts happen on double 6s not 1s. That was 7th ed.

HoverBoy wrote:Dude miscasts happen on double 6s not 1s. That was 7th ed.

Thanks, then I was misconstrued information. Like I said in my original post, some of my information may be false because of the people that I have been learning from are stuck in 7th ed.

HoverBoy wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Magic is perhaps the most random, and most erratic thing in the game, because you need a Level 4 magic or else you die.

Except for when a no slaan monster spam list goes against shadow Delves and compleetly stomps all over them is what you mean right?

I also hate Cupped hands with a passion.

rockerbikie wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Magic is perhaps the most random, and most erratic thing in the game, because you need a Level 4 magic or else you die.

Except for when a no slaan monster spam list goes against shadow Delves and compleetly stomps all over them is what you mean right?

I also hate Cupped hands with a passion.

Never used them