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If you'd like to think that about the Nids, I suppose you're certainly welcome to... but there's a reason the Hive Fleets turn away from Necron Tomb Worlds. They can't afford the biomass loss in fighting them. The Necrons offer nothing to the Tyranid by way of biomass reclamation, other than their own Tyranid dead.

This becomes even more problematic when one considers Necron weapons. They destroy matter on an atomic level. They leave no corpses to be consumed, either of their own dead or of their enemy. Fighting the Necrons is, to the Tyranids, always a losing proposition. Their worlds, and their soldiers, offer the Hive nothing in return.

Necrodermis does not offer biomass, it's entirely inorganic. While we can debate the "metals" found in living organisms, that's not how the game, or the Tyranid, view it. What the writers seem to be referring to as "biomass" is "organic matter"... plants, grass, animals, people, etc etc. Not the base chemicals that make up these things, but the mass of organic compounds that we think of as "living matter".

Actually Tyranid fleets turn away from tomb worlds as the majority a death worlds with little to no biomass available. hence them turning away.

Um... a Death World, like Catachan, would be a treasure-trove of biomass for a Tyranid fleet. It's covered in jungles and dinosaurs and people and giant bugs and giant snakes and all sorts of other tasty, nibbly things for Tyranids to eat.

A Necron Tomb World is considered a "Death World" simply because there's Necrons on it. A Death World is generally considered a world with local flora/fauna that is deadly to human life, whether that's man-eating plants or man-eating dinosaurial titan-beasts or whatever else. Many Necron Tomb Worlds are utterly devoid of life, even bacteria... again, the Tyranid have nothing to gain from fighting Necrons, and everything to lose, which is why the armies of undeath will be the eradication of the Tyranid.

Going back to the earliest reference to a death world (Rogue Trader), A death world is a world where it is difficult to sustain life.

Tallarn, Istvaan VI and Valhalla to name but a few. Catachan is one of the few examples of a world that is classed as a death world, but has mass amounts of life there too.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

jgehunter wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Psienesis wrote:It's a direct quote regarding the Necrons from Jim Swallow, incidentally.

The Necrons may have started on a single world, but as there is more than one Tomb World in the galaxy, they obviously didn't stay there. We have no idea how many Necrontyr there were before biotransference, there might have been 7 quintillion Necrontyr at the time. Even even half of this number survived the transfer to a Necrodermis shell, this would be several orders of magnitude greater than the number of stars in the Milky Way (estimated at 300 billion... in 40K, that's not really a lot, comparatively).

A quintillion doesnt exist as a number.

remember, Tyranids have consumed a dozen Galaxies. that amount of biomass will equate to an exceptionally large number of fleets. which have all diversified from a diet of different biomass. either way, they outnumber Necrons. I can't see any basis that the Necrons will wipe out tyranids. As to wipe out as big as the Tryanids, you'd need every civilisation in the galaxy to team up and work together. which will not happen in any way what so ever, as everyone as an agenda against one of the other factions...

Nope, you only need the orks to team up

erm nope... even orks will infight during a conflict. the only example of them working together so far is the orctarius thing... but that is ONLY because they want to take over from the warboss there.

You said it would require all the races to team up, I said that in the hypothetical case that orks united the would beat tyranids.

Even then I can't see it tbh. as if the hive-fleets ever attacked en-mass we'd be screwed.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:Even then I can't see it tbh. as if the hive-fleets ever attacked en-mass we'd be screwed.

I believe it is stated in the orks codex that they would be invincible if they ever united.

which is highly unlikely as they constantly bicker with each other.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:which is highly unlikely as they constantly bicker with each other.

Of course, I was just rebuking

you'd need every civilisation in the galaxy to team up and work together.

The current definition of a Death World is much more expansive, and tends to refer not to lifeless planets, but planets that don't easily support human life. Catachan is but one example of such a world, Fenris (homeworld of the Space Wolves) is another.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Death_world

Lol I love it when people reference Lexi, as if it is the font of all knowledge and 100% correct

It's a convenient reference, and, from its footnotes and references, actually refutes your earlier point that a Death World is a barren rock, as even Rogue Trader states that human beings can, and do, live on Death Worlds, in opposition to the biomass of the planet that appears to make it a personal goal to destroy them.

I also never said humans couldnt live there... just that is was deadly to human life.

Going back to the earliest reference to a death world (Rogue Trader), A death world is a world where it is difficult to sustain life.

Tallarn, Istvaan VI and Valhalla to name but a few. Catachan is one of the few examples of a world that is classed as a death world, but has mass amounts of life there too.

Bolded text suggests the implication that Death Worlds lack biomass, which is simply not true.

Btw this is getting massively off topic...

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:Btw this is getting massively off topic...

Yeah...

BTW

ll hail the Great Devourer! For "it" said: "Om nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom" Book of Nom: 3:16.

That is so full of WIN it's unbelievable, may I copy it?

lols go for it, but you have to quote me for it lols

Psienesis wrote:If you'd like to think that about the Nids, I suppose you're certainly welcome to... but there's a reason the Hive Fleets turn away from Necron Tomb Worlds. They can't afford the biomass loss in fighting them. The Necrons offer nothing to the Tyranid by way of biomass reclamation, other than their own Tyranid dead.

Not all Necron Tomb Worlds are lifeless worlds. There is evidence of Tyranids consuming Tomb Worlds:

Much of the territory once ruled by the Charnovokh Dynasty lies far to the galactic southeast. Many of its dormant Tomb Worlds were devoured by Hive Fleet Behemoth...

p. 10, 5th edition Necron Codex

Yes in some cases, when the risk outweighs the possible gain, the Tyranids may bypass or turn away from Necron worlds. However if the Necron Tomb World should lie upon a world that has life on it, then the potential gain from harvesting the biomass may outweigh the additional risk and losses associated with attacking Necrons. The fact Tomb Worlds HAVE been consumed, also shows that the Tyranids are capable of overcoming Necrons.

I think, given the note there that says "dormant Tomb Worlds" might indicate that the Necrons on those worlds, for whatever reason, never woke up to fight the Tyranid. I can only assume something was out of whack with their Resurrection Protocols or something.

Though, of course, not all Tomb Worlds are barren rocks. The Necrons have, after all, been asleep for millions of years at this point, and only a relative few Dynasties have awoken in the 41st millennium. Of course, being asleep for that long, all sorts of things could have happened to the world above them, what with tectonic drift, changes in orbital cycles, planetary axial tilt and other such things that what was once an arid, desert world might now be covered in oceans or jungles or Imperial Hives. Who knows?

Borrowing a bit of fluff from Mass Effect, I have a Tomb World in my DH campaign that suffered a glancing hit from a mass-driver weapon at some point in the ancient past, which left a hundred-mile-wide and thousands-of-miles-long trench in its southern hemisphere, which sent the planet spinning away from its star until it was finally recaptured in its gravity well, placing it in the life-zone of the star, allowing the planet to become life-sustaining. The players, of course, nearly gakked bricks when they stumbled into the Tomb...

And while I'm sure that Tyranids can defeat Necrons given the right circumstances (even the Imperium can accomplish this feat), I think a Tyranid Hive Fleet faced with a Necron army that has fully awoken and come ready and prepared to kick ass and take names is going to find itself at a distinct disadvantage fighting the soulless robots... especially in space, as the Tyranids will be suffering for biomass reclamation in such an arena anyway, and be expending massive amounts of the same re-converting its ground forces into space-fighters, while we know a Necron armada is nearly death incarnate. This makes me wonder if the Tyranids are affected by the various Ctan shards... I wonder if a Dynasty fielding a shard of, say, the Nightbringer on their flagship might be able to cause the Hive Fleet to know the fear of death? One of the Void Dragon might be less than ideal, given the complete lack of machines in the Tyranid forces... though I also wonder if the Ctan called Iash'uddra, the Endless Swarm, might not be responsible for the creation of the Tyranid in the unknowable past? It seems the sort of thing a pissed off Ctan might do.

70000000000000
That is seven quintillion. Lots'a crons to nibble and nom on.

On topic:

Perhaps some sort of planet devourer? Why bother sending troops down and wage a prolonged war when you could just eat the whole planet?

Limbo wrote:On topic:

Perhaps some sort of planet devourer? Why bother sending troops down and wage a prolonged war when you could just eat the whole planet?

I just pictured a giant Globefish. I'm definitely going to make a conversion for BFG

I just pictured pac-man =)
This evoloution would make sense thought, seeing as the Tyranids should evolve in such a way that enables them to collect bio-matter faster. A way to travel faster between systems would be pretty logical too.

Psienesis wrote:I think, given the note there that says "dormant Tomb Worlds" might indicate that the Necrons on those worlds, for whatever reason, never woke up to fight the Tyranid. I can only assume something was out of whack with their Resurrection Protocols or something.

Though, of course, not all Tomb Worlds are barren rocks. The Necrons have, after all, been asleep for millions of years at this point, and only a relative few Dynasties have awoken in the 41st millennium. Of course, being asleep for that long, all sorts of things could have happened to the world above them, what with tectonic drift, changes in orbital cycles, planetary axial tilt and other such things that what was once an arid, desert world might now be covered in oceans or jungles or Imperial Hives. Who knows?

And while I'm sure that Tyranids can defeat Necrons given the right circumstances (even the Imperium can accomplish this feat), I think a Tyranid Hive Fleet faced with a Necron army that has fully awoken and come ready and prepared to kick ass and take names is going to find itself at a distinct disadvantage fighting the soulless robots... especially in space, as the Tyranids will be suffering for biomass reclamation in such an arena anyway, and be expending massive amounts of the same re-converting its ground forces into space-fighters, while we know a Necron armada is nearly death incarnate. This makes me wonder if the Tyranids are affected by the various Ctan shards... I wonder if a Dynasty fielding a shard of, say, the Nightbringer on their flagship might be able to cause the Hive Fleet to know the fear of death? One of the Void Dragon might be less than ideal, given the complete lack of machines in the Tyranid forces... though I also wonder if the Ctan called Iash'uddra, the Endless Swarm, might not be responsible for the creation of the Tyranid in the unknowable past? It seems the sort of thing a pissed off Ctan might do.

Selective reading there on "dormant worlds", Necrons awake when threatened, for once maybe you should see that they had their collective butts handed to them?

Also you are dealing with hypothetical's whilst the rest of us are basing this on fluff based fact. Tyranids have been show to defeat several tomb-worlds, but also, awakening all necrons at the same time is about as likely as the orks joining forces... it just isn't going to happen. so, while going on fluff... the tyranids are going to wipe all life from existence ^_^

om nom nom nom nom nom nom nom

Dormant =/= Awakened. Not quite sure how you missed that there.

If you're basing this on fluff-based facts... uh... is there a major Hive Fleet that hasn't yet had its ass kicked by the Ultramarines? Even Leviathan, the current on-going Tyranid threat, got its butt spanked by Calgar, Kryptman and the Mechanicus, who even managed to unlock the secrets of Tyranid hyper-evolution, and turned it against the Hive Fleet itself.

Psienesis wrote:Dormant =/= Awakened. Not quite sure how you missed that there.

If you're basing this on fluff-based facts... uh... is there a major Hive Fleet that hasn't yet had its ass kicked by the Ultramarines? Even Leviathan, the current on-going Tyranid threat, got its butt spanked by Calgar, Kryptman and the Mechanicus, who even managed to unlock the secrets of Tyranid hyper-evolution, and turned it against the Hive Fleet itself.

By butt spanked, do you mean that they are still heading for earth and that nothing has halted their progress... because if you do, then thats ok

I would agree with the thought that the next best thing for the Tyranids to evolve would be ways to break a planet up without having to park in orbit, send tyranids down, and then extend their ship's feeder tentacles down to slurp up the bio-slurry.

Although, other than stupidly huge ships that eat planets, which would fall prey to the law of Diminishing returns, that's really the best way to kill a planet other than blowing it up- thus rendering it useless to feed on.

Leviathan has been forced to re-think its strategy, as sticking two huge tendrils up through the galactic plane and cutting off all the worlds between them has failed, costing the fleet a significant portion of its total mass, and also resulted in it becoming embroiled in not 1 but 2 wars, as the fleet is now losing massive numbers to the Orks of the Octarius Empire (while the Orks are losing massive numbers to the Tyranid... the race is on to see who can out-spore/out-spawn the other!).

While Leviathan is still heading for Terra, it has definitely lost a lot of momentum and, with the Exterminatus of hundreds of worlds, it's starting to lose steam. Not sure what the rate of consumption of biomass of an entire Hive Fleet is during inter-stellar travel, but it would seem that Leviathan is starting to... look a bit sickly.

As far as Evolutions go? Well, the planet eater is kinda a decent idea, but then how does the rest of the fleet feed? Or were you thinking that this giant space-Pac-man-bug houses the Norn Queen, breeding pools and everything else inside its world-eating bulk and then just pocka-pockas its way along to the next world? While that would be more... efficient, I suppose, it definitely leaves it at a disadvantage against, say, cyclonic torpedoes.

TBH, other than some variant bug-types more suited to specific terrain types or similar combat functions, I think they've pretty much reached the pinnacle of their evolution. Adapting to use cybernetics or machines is just... not Niddy.

Psienesis wrote:Leviathan has been forced to re-think its strategy, as sticking two huge tendrils up through the galactic plane and cutting off all the worlds between them has failed, costing the fleet a significant portion of its total mass, and also resulted in it becoming embroiled in not 1 but 2 wars, as the fleet is now losing massive numbers to the Orks of the Octarius Empire (while the Orks are losing massive numbers to the Tyranid... the race is on to see who can out-spore/out-spawn the other!).

While Leviathan is still heading for Terra, it has definitely lost a lot of momentum and, with the Exterminatus of hundreds of worlds, it's starting to lose steam. Not sure what the rate of consumption of biomass of an entire Hive Fleet is during inter-stellar travel, but it would seem that Leviathan is starting to... look a bit sickly.

tempted to agree with you, but the hive fleets can go into dormancy between long periods of feeding, and there are new tendrils poking up through the galactic plane all the time.

As far as Evolutions go? Well, the planet eater is kinda a decent idea, but then how does the rest of the fleet feed? Or were you thinking that this giant space-Pac-man-bug houses the Norn Queen, breeding pools and everything else inside its world-eating bulk and then just pocka-pockas its way along to the next world? While that would be more... efficient, I suppose, it definitely leaves it at a disadvantage against, say, cyclonic torpedoes.

TBH, other than some variant bug-types more suited to specific terrain types or similar combat functions, I think they've pretty much reached the pinnacle of their evolution. Adapting to use cybernetics or machines is just... not Niddy.

I think there's room for more evolution yet, as if they were to consume wholesale a race, they would adapt across the entire species. rather than just one sub species at a time eg: Eldar > Zoanthropes. Orks > Biovores/Pyrovores.

All they need is one planet with flora and fauna that is distinct, dangerous and not found anywhere else. and it could change the Tyranid race forver! (See wip story on my sigg for an example)

Psienesis wrote:TBH, other than some variant bug-types more suited to specific terrain types or similar combat functions, I think they've pretty much reached the pinnacle of their evolution. Adapting to use cybernetics or machines is just... not Niddy.

I'd have to agree with this statement.