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biccat wrote:Expect to start seeing a lot of Shadow and Death wizards in the future.

... because we don't already?

But point taken: Empire used to be about the only army with access to Shadow that didn't take it every game. After this week, perhaps they'll be joining the club as well.

- Salvage, Member of the Ban Shadow Magic Movement

biccat wrote:

Boss Salvage wrote:Praise be! IMO the current mortars under 8th have been just about broken, not least because I run a T3 infantry army. And apparently warrior priests have lost the additional dispel dice nonsense? Really those were the only two things I wanted fixed in the new book, looks like I got my wish

Mortars were the only non-magical thing Empire has to deal with large blocks of infantry. There aren't enough heavy hitters in the Empire book to deal with enemy blocks. Maybe that will change with the Demigryph knights, but I'm not too optimistic.

Expect to start seeing a lot of Shadow and Death wizards in the future.

Awww, the Empire has to settle for mortars AND magic. And Volley Guns. And now 3 S5 attack, 1+ save Demigryphs. In the meantime, Dwarves don't have the magic, the elves don't have the mortars or volley guns, and neither have anything comparable to the Demigryphs. Clearly the empire needs moar toyz!

EDIT: I'm wondering about the vast silence around the new cannon rules. After all, OGRE cannons get a reroll on the bounce roll; I would imagine the trained gunners of the Empire should be able to do at least as well as some ignorant Ogres in gunnery...

And that would make an Empire gunline even more scary.

ogres get the better of 2 bounce rolls because they load the cannon up with multiple cannonballs(its a big gun)

I could see it being an Engineer ability though.

Grey Templar wrote:ogres get the better of 2 bounce rolls because they load the cannon up with multiple cannonballs(its a big gun)

I could see it being an Engineer ability though.

And because they are using cannons forged by giants.

Extremely intelligent, and tasty, Giants called Sky Titans.

Deathbysoup wrote:Hold the line is a new rule which empire captains and generals have. The unit with them in take break tests on 3d6 and pick the two lowest!

Must be because, with Steadfast, units were just too darn easy to break *smh*

Grey Templar wrote:Extremely intelligent, and tasty, Giants called Sky Titans.

nom, nom... Huh, Huh... *belch*

I love the new magic college alters. The planetarium looks interesting, I might get it and make it part the roof of the watch tower.

As for Karl Franz, Deathclaw is a little too big, I was hoping a griffon would be smaller, like smaller than a dragon and on a square monster base. I wanted a griffon for an Abysmal Terror.

Lastly I love the Van Helsing witch hunter, I'm getting one no matter what.

I think the rumored rules changes are pretty poopy sounding across the board.

State Troops are barely worth it right now at 5pts. I painted 50 Halberdiers and I'm always underwhelmed by their performance. Still, at 270pts, they don't exactly break the bank.

But what if they are going to cost 330pts in the new book (assuming 6pts per model and 10pt command guys?)

60pts can go a long way in the current Empire book.

The Mortar needed a nerf. I predicted they were going to move Ro rare and jump to 100pts. I would be fine with that. But dropping the Str and jumping to 100pts?

Doesn't the Skaven catapult do the same thing but ignore armour as well? Who cares if the Mortar stays as a Special choice at that point?

Steam tank sounds like junk at T6, but will wait to see the exact rules. Currently it's biggest problem (besides initiative tests) is getting wounded once or twice and doing little for the rest of the game (assuming no Life magic.) If it can still function decently after getting wounded, it might be playable.

Frankly, I'm unimpressed by the Hold the Line rule. Most units should be Stubborn/Steadfast 9 with a BSB re-roll anyway. It will only maybe help you in dicey situations when the combats get close, and generally you want to avoid those combats anyway.

Witch Hunter sounds pretty useless in competitive play. Will have to see his points to make a final decision.

Nice to see Huntsmen cost a little less, even if they are Special. Hopefullly he meant Huntsmen and not Archers.

Overall, sounds very grim, but will wait to see what the book actually says this Saturday.

Melkhiordarkblade wrote: Abysmal Terror..

Handgunners are now priced out of competitive play IMO as is the majority of Empire core besides the Halberd.... Wait something sounds familiar

Clarence wrote:Doesn't the Skaven catapult do the same thing but ignore armour as well?

I thought of this comparison last night, and you are correct on the plagueclaw being large blast S2 no armor save for the same points. Thing is, is the mortar still S6 D3 wounds under the center? Gives it a leg up in versatility, vs the catapult, which wounds everything once on 5 or 6+, somewhat limiting its targets and ability to make back points. The real rub though is the misfire charts: the mortar has the normal stone thrower one (right?), while the catapult has its rather horrific one that involves the enemy placing the huge, T3 melting template over skaven. If there is only one thing in the game the PCC is good at killing, it's skaven

(We might also keep in mind that the PCC is crewed by three plague monks, so has 6 S3 attaks and is T4 in combat, but that's something of a moot point.)

If I'm honest with myself, I would have been fine with the mortar becoming Rare and costing 120+ points. The S2 is a bit much even by my (rather vengeful) standards.

- Salvage

Boss Salvage wrote:

Clarence wrote:Doesn't the Skaven catapult do the same thing but ignore armour as well?

I thought of this comparison last night, and you are correct on the plagueclaw being large blast S2 no armor save for the same points. Thing is, is the mortar still S6 D3 wounds under the center? Gives it a leg up in versatility, vs the catapult, which wounds everything once on 5 or 6+, somewhat limiting its targets and ability to make back points. The real rub though is the misfire charts: the mortar has the normal stone thrower one (right?), while the catapult has its rather horrific one that involves the enemy placing the huge, T3 melting template over skaven. If there is only one thing in the game the PCC is good at killing, it's skaven

(We might also keep in mind that the PCC is crewed by three plague monks, so has 6 S3 attaks and is T4 in combat, but that's something of a moot point.)

3 S3 Attacks, the PCC doesn't have Frenzy.

Also, general consensus on the PCC is that it's overcosted for what it does, especially since it's not very good at its primary use(against low T, high AS units) especially when compared to its 90 point competition(WLC).

Platuan4th wrote:3 S3 Attacks, the PCC doesn't have Frenzy.

Nope, 'tis indeed frenzied. It simply cannot charge, like any other war machine:

Skaven FAQ wrote:Page 47 – Plagueclaw Catapult, Fume-addled Crew
Change to “The crew of the Plagueclaw Catapult have the
Frenzy special rule. Add +1 to the number of attacks received
for each crew model as long as they are Frenzied. ”

But no denying that the PCC isn't worth taking. Mine saw the table ~5 times before being permanently retired - like you say, it's not even good at what it's supposed to do

- Salvage

Which is why the mortar is now pretty useless (if the rumours are true.)

My biggest problem with the new book is that, as is, my army literally goes up by ~100pts and generally gets weaker. My current build:

Foot Archlector (-25pts)
Wizard Lord (-10pts)
Captain BSB (+10pts)
Engineer (same?)
50 Halberdiers (+60pts)
10 Handgunners (+10pts)
15 Crossbows (same?)
10 Archers (-10pts)
2 Cannons (+40pts)
2 Mortars (+50pts)
38 Greatswords (+38pts)
Stank (-50pts)

Overall +113pts (not taking new magic items into account)

I don't feel like I built a ridiculous army. When I place it on the table, it looks like an Empire army. But under the rumoured changes, most of my stuff gets more expensive for no good reason, and it genreally gets worse too!

They want you to move away from the old Empire standbys and buy a whole lot of Demigryphs, the only thing in the book that seems to be OTT. 3 S5 AP attacks... for the mount? Yikes!

Engineers FTW with a Hellblaster. BS4 with a re-roll on an artillery dice to determine number of shots, all new misfire system that actually doesn't just say "Roll a dice, remove Hellblaster".

Steam tank is still awesome. Yes it is T6 now but it is now considered a chariot meaning the engineers I is used now for tests. New steam point generation is better and the cannon being upgraded to a full cannon means you get the rest of the steam tank fora mere 130pts. Let's not forget the cannon on it can be used in combat as a breath weapon each turn with a strength modifiable with steam points.

Just as an example, here's what i'm going to be running at 2k...

Wizard Lord, Lv4, magic stuff
Engineer
Engineer

40 Spearmen + Command
20 handgunners
20 handgunners

6 Demigryphs
Cannon

Steam tank
Hellblaster
Hellblaster.

I don't have a ton of rank and file but the stank is just a house and the demigryph will just soak fire. Really considering using Life on the Lv4 too as it really helps negate all the weaknesses of the stank and demigryphs.

I was very disappointed to see the cost of state troops go up - this is a nerf aimed at people who had balanced lists of core units. GW is obviously trying to sell a bunch of $31 per model cav units and fancy war altar spin-offs

Steam tank is disgusting, it can dish out 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d3 impact hits at str 6! OMG!!!

karlosovic wrote:I was very disappointed to see the cost of state troops go up - this is a nerf aimed at people who had balanced lists of core units. GW is obviously trying to sell a bunch of $31 per model cav units and fancy war altar spin-offs

Actually, they just made state troops a better value for the money, so I doubt the change was profit motivated.

Looking over the new book is exciting, base troops went up in points, but detatchments got much better and they now count towards your core if you buy them for core regiments. As people have pointed out, the hellblaster is awesome. As a high elf player, the mortar still terrifies me. A couple of well placed shots from that will annihilate my swordmasters, spearmen, and lothern sea gaurd. I'm sorry, but when one attack can get 30+ hits, it seems appropriate to wound on fives.

Certainly "The one list" has changed and does not work as well, but I think the army is hugely viable in a lot of ways, and overall very thematic and fun. The one game I've seen played by our resident powergamer at my flgs he said he was loving it, that the new empire is fantastic.

Hows their gatling cannon artillery thing doing? I love its model so much, I hope (pray) its better with the new book. Anyone know?

Ignus wrote:

karlosovic wrote:I was very disappointed to see the cost of state troops go up - this is a nerf aimed at people who had balanced lists of core units. GW is obviously trying to sell a bunch of $31 per model cav units and fancy war altar spin-offs

Actually, they just made state troops a better value for the money, so I doubt the change was profit motivated.

Looking over the new book is exciting, base troops went up in points, but detatchments got much better and they now count towards your core if you buy them for core regiments. As people have pointed out, the hellblaster is awesome. As a high elf player, the mortar still terrifies me. A couple of well placed shots from that will annihilate my swordmasters, spearmen, and lothern sea gaurd. I'm sorry, but when one attack can get 30+ hits, it seems appropriate to wound on fives.

Certainly "The one list" has changed and does not work as well, but I think the army is hugely viable in a lot of ways, and overall very thematic and fun. The one game I've seen played by our resident powergamer at my flgs he said he was loving it, that the new empire is fantastic.

The more i read the book, the more I'm considering at least a partial retraction. Looks like we might have to play a little bit differently, but all is *not* actually lost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just noticed an error in the book.
p70 shows "An Amber Wizard on a two-headed Imperial Griffon" - except a wizard can only be mounted on a Griffon if he's Lore of Beasts.

On a positive note - pretty much all the special characters are substantially cheaper than they used to be, and so are Warrior Priests and Arch Lectors. Archers/Huntsmen and Knights are also cheaper (although everything else obviously went up)

karlosovic wrote:
Just noticed an error in the book.
p70 shows "An Amber Wizard on a two-headed Imperial Griffon" - except a wizard can only be mounted on a Griffon if he's Lore of Beasts.

Reading the fluff in my 7th ed empire book shows that the magicians of the lore of beasts are known as the amber order.

VikingScott wrote:

karlosovic wrote:
Just noticed an error in the book.
p70 shows "An Amber Wizard on a two-headed Imperial Griffon" - except a wizard can only be mounted on a Griffon if he's Lore of Beasts.

Reading the fluff in my 7th ed empire book shows that the magicians of the lore of beasts are known as the amber order.

What he said.

"The Lore of Beasts is associated with Ghur, the brown wind of magic, which is the coalescence of bestial spirit, the predator and the prey. It flows around the wild, untamed places, where the touch of civilisation has not yet been felt. It is a savage wind, as unreasoning as it is devoid of malice. Amber wizards are often called 'shamans' and are rarely found in cities or other outposts of civilisation."

So, my thoughts on the new rules;

Detachments - They still haven't really fixed this, if anything they broke it slightly worse. While passing on psychology type rules from the parent to the detachment is nice, they now fill a purely defensive role since supporting charge was removed. Worse, the counter charge is now resolved using the normal rules for charging, which means no automatic flank, and a good possiblity if your opponent positions his charge right, that you cant even complete a legal charge against the enemy. They also *still* haven't fixed the problem of the enemy simply charging and wiping out the detachment, rather than charging the parent. While you could theoretically use sufficiently large detachements that they cant be wiped out in a single round of combat, it means taking very large parent units and the points really start to add up. Worse, the whole thing becomes incredibly unwieldy on the tabletop. Verdict: Bad

General/Captain - Hold the Line seems like a rule that really wasn't needed, since when did steadfast on LD9 or 10 with a BSB re-roll really have any significant problems holding? The stat lines for Generals and Captains are still bad in terms of combat capability, and now they're more expensive than before for no good reason I can think of. Also, the Imperial Griffon despite a points drop and a slight stat increase is still bad. T5, 5W with absolutely no save at all is still going to get stabbed to death, and cannons still make ridden monsters a great way to get a character and expensive mount killed. Verdict: Bad

Wizards - Hey, they got cheaper. Neat. You can put an Amber Wizard on a Griffon... but why would you ever do that, on so many different levels? I thought Dragon Mages had allready shown people why putting a caster on a fighty monster was a terrible idea? Similarly, I cant see that putting a Light or Celestial wizard on their respective pimp wagons is a great idea, better off hiding them somewhere they'd actually be hard to get to. Still, cheaper wizard lords is a good thing. Verdcit: Good

Arch Lectors/Priests - Well, they lost the bonus dispel dice. Is anyone really surprised by this? It was needed to be honest, our ability to completely shut down a magic phase was just too strong. So what do they get instead? Well, for one thing they got cheaper which is nice. Still give out hatred, though still not to other characters for, which I never really understood but okay. New prayers are not remains in play, which is a mixed blessing. Plus side, you get 2 rounds of combat with the buff if you get it off. Down side, you cant spam a bunch of them early and force your opponent to spend power dice dispelling them. Power level 3 makes them pretty easy to cast, though 1 dice is still risky since a 1 or 2 means no more prayers for that guy. Being able to cast up to 3 per Lector/Priest is nice. Re-rolls to wound looks pretty neat, as does a 5+ ward for the unit. Soulfire seems more situational. Useful vs regenerating things or assaulting into a building (watchtower!), but the damage component is pretty pointless. The big rub is that since you have no caster level to add, they're easy to stop. So dont count on actually using these to swing a crucial combat, your opponent will save dice for any warrior priest or lector who's unit is fighting. There's also a real chance that the priests will get stabbed to death once they're in combat, since they dont exactly have a jaw dropping stat line, and kitting them out with good defensive options gets pretty expensive, particularly if you plan to take alot of them. Verdict: Average

War Altar - I figure I'll cover this seperate. So, it lost unbreakable but gained stubborn. Not so bad. Losing the entire lore of light, and just gaining banishment as a bound spell is a significant nerf however, I cant see the bound spell getting much use, especially since you'll need to pour power dice into prayers to try and make your troops less terrible. The 4+ ward being chariot only however, now that is a big hit. Making a good tarpit out of a Lector on the Altar just got significantly harder to acchieve, especially combined with the changes to the Empire magic items. Getting a 1+ re-roll armour save and a 4+ ward is going to be very very pricy, especially with the points hike on the altar itself. Seems that it's days as a tarpit are likely over, and there's not much point charging it into combat for any other reason, since Arch Lectors are terrible at actually fighting, so it'll be relegated to playing buff-mobile with AoE prayers and hatred. On the plus side, that means you can skimp on magic items for the lector to offset the points increase of the altar. As far as generals go, it's still really the only game in town. Verdict: Good

Grand Master - Got a points increase... and has to pay extra for a shield now? Not sure what Cruddace was thinking here, it's not like they were a good choice before, and they're still not a good choice now. They're bad at fighting, much like all Empire characters, and only really do anything for cavalry, which are pretty mediocre in 8th.

Marius Leitdorf - I dont normally comment on special characters, since they're often pretty pointless, but I had to comment on this guy. He's a General, with full plate, on a barded warhorse, holding a runefang. Only he's mad, and so might do nothing. And costs more than just buying a general, and putting him on a barded warhorse with full plate and a runefang. He gets +1 WS I guess? Wierd.

Markus Wulfhart - Another special I thought I'd comment on. He tries to hunt monsters, with a bow. And he costs more than a cannon. Which... kills monsters more reliably. I have NO idea why you would take this guy for anything other than fluff.

Master Engineer - He can give his BS and a single artillery dice re-roll to a war machine within 3". Cool! I have to decide before firing any war machines which one he uses his ability on. Wait, what? I have to be psychic to use this guy as anything other than a very expensive upgrade for a war machine. Hmm. Verdict: Below Average

Witch Hunter - I'll just go ahead and say it. He's bad at fighting, he's so fragile it's not even funny, and the chances of scoring a KB with shooting are miniscule. Take one for a laugh, but dont expect them to actually kill anything. Verdict: Below Average

Core Troops - Swordsmen get a nerf in the shape of a drop in initiative, everything gets more expensive except spearmen, who were bad anyway. The most perplexing points increase is Free Company. Why on earth would I pay that much for a S3, T3 guy with no armour at all, who's only redeeming feature is an extra hand weapon? Oh cool! My front rank get an extra crappy S3 attack! Knights drop a point... but it's still 8th edition, and heavy cavalry are still sub-par. Archers did get a point cheaper, but they're still awful so whatever. To sum this up, our troops got more expensive, but absolutely no better at fighting. (And in the case of swordsmen, actually got slightly worse at fighting). The only thing Empire troops really had going for them was weight of numbers, and now we get fewer of them. Verdict: Bad

Greatswords - Didn't change at all, got more expensive. I'll be honest and say now that I've never really liked greatswords, allways strikes last is a bitch, and being S3 base means they aren't even killing T4 troops on 2+. They're T3 so take ALOT of wounds, and that 4+ save really doesn't help them much. Sure they're stubborn, but Halberdiers at half the price do just as good a job tarpitting by being steadfast, and are almost as good at killing stuff. So now they're more expensive, I still dont think they're a good unit. Verdict: Bad

Demigryph Knights - Ah yes, the Chokobo riders. While I cant really put an exact point cost here, I'll say that what they do cost is too damned much for T3 monstrous cav. They cant break steadfast, and lack the killing power to grind big infantry units down in anything approaching a reasonable timeframe, and they lack the numbers to absorb casualties. And at T3, they WILL take casualties, even with that 1+ armour save. Very vulnerable to war machines and magic, as well as being tar-pitted by cheap throw-away units they cant break. If you can get them unmolested into a flank when you have the unit pinned with a big infantry block they might do some good, but that's true of almost any unit. The Chokobo is at least reasonably fighty. Dont give them halberds. The rider's fighting ability is irrelevant anyway, and at T3 you will NEED that 1+ armour save, since you're going to be making a whole lot of saves. Verdict: Average

Reiksguard Knights - Stubborn inner circle knights. Expensive as hell. What's to say, knights are still bad. They're sort of okay as a tarpit, but damned expensive for it. Verdict: Bad

Pistoliers / Outriders - Didn't change at all, in points or rules. They were good before, and they're still good now. Pistoliers are a great harassment/redirect unit, Outriders bring a ton of firepower that you can vanguard into position. Verdict: Good

Cannons - 20% more expensive... probably deserved given what they do to monsters, ridden monsters, chariots, monstrous infantry, monstrous cavalry, etc. Still as important as they ever were. Verdict: Excellent

Mortars - Oh dear. Everyone knew they were due either a nerf or a points increase. What they got was both. S2 is feeble, and even direct hits on large units of T3 infantry doesn't really kill terribly much. Against T4 infantry they're worthless. They were awesome before, now they're unfortunately bad. Verdict: Bad

Flagellants - A bit of a nerfing, and a 20% points increase. Going up to WS3 is good however. They can now have the frenzy beaten out of them which is a minor nerf, but really they should be winning combat. The changes to martyrdom is the bigger concern. For one, it now happens uncontrollably, and is less likely to get you the buffs. It also, bizzarely, makes improving their tougness or giving them a ward save a bad idea, since that would make them less likely to get their re-rolls. Overall though, they should still blend most units out of existance, even operating without external buffing. Cant take them as core any more though, which makes me sad. Still, these guys are, despite what some of the doomsayers have to say on the matter, a good unit that will blend things. Verdict: Good

Helblaster Volley Gun - Well, it's less likely to simply blow itself to pieces now, which is nice. However, it still has only a 24" range and needs to roll to hit, which was the real problem with it before, and it's still a problem now. It'll average 15 shots, which at long range means 5 hits. That's pretty poor. You can allways buy an engineer for it, but that makes it rather expensive, and still only increases it to an average of 7.5 hits at long range. Not sold really. Verdict: Below Average

Helstorm Rocket Battery - Dropped to S3, dropped to small template. Ouch. it fires D3 rockets per salvo which is kinda nice, but since it always counts as unsighted it's hopelessly inaccurate. It MIGHT get a good roll, and drop all three templates into a unit, which I agree would probably be a very bad thing for that unit. But it's more likely to scatter them all over the damned place and kill only a couple of models. Verdict: Bad

Steam Tank - Well, they really messed around with this didn't they? So what's good? Well, it no longer auto-died to purple sun and pit of shades. This is a good thing. People dont automatically hit it in combat either, also a good thing. And it dropped in points! What's bad? Dropping to T6 means that alot of things are now going to be wounding it pretty reliably. Great weapons in particular are a problem. It can also be poisoned now. It's also now impossible to play it safe and ensure it works. Every turn, there's a 1 in 6 chance even when unwounded, that you have to roll on the 'my tank is f**ked' table. And alot of the results could very well lead to your expensive tank doing absolutely nothing. Being able to spend only 3 points in any one thing is also going to mean it kills less stuff, which coupled with the fact it still cant kill ANYTHING in the opponents combat phase, means that this thing will often spend an entire game fruitlessly grinding against a steadfast infantry block. The steam gun did get an improvement, now that you can increase the strength by spending more steam points on it, and might actually be the better place to spend 3 steam points in combat now. You still should never ever fire the cannon if you can help it. Overall though, it's still pretty solid and will scare the wee out of your opponent. Verdict: Good

Luminark of Hysh - First thing I should say here, is never, ever mount your wizard on this. It's just an open invitation for enemy skirmishers/flyers/fast cav to come and stab him off it. Or for cannons to delete him and it in one shot. That out the way, lets look at what it does. 6+ ward save for everything in 6". Meh. It's not going to save alot of people, and it's unlikely you'll get more than 2 units under the bubble anyway. Free dispel dice. That's nice I guess, but not overwhelming. Magic lazar death cannon. Well... it's a S8 bolt thrower. That I have to spend power dice on. *yawn*. Whatever, I have cannons. Sorry, this thing aint blowing my socks off. Verdict: Below Average

Celestial Hurricanum - Really really dont mount a wizard on this. In addition to the points above, it means you took a Heavens lord, and there are so many better lores for Empire. So, what does it do? +1 to hit in close combat for units in 6". Now THIS is pretty good. You still wont get more than 2 units affected, but it could really help swing combat for you, and what's better is that it doesn't need casting, so it cant be dispelled. This is good stuff. +1 magic dice in your magic phase is also good. We're going to need to be spamming away at warrior priest prayers, and another dice means another cast. Storm of Shemtek. It might make the target wet. Seriously... it might make it rain. Which does nothing. S2 small blast and -1 to hit until my next magic phase is so-so, the 'spin the target' is... uh. Well, okay I suppose? They might end up still facing me, so... yeah. Lightning is modestly good, S6 under the center, S3 for the rest of the small template. Meteor strike is... somewhat dissapointing actually. S8 D6 multiple wounds under the center I guess makes it frightning(ish) to Ogres, but characters will get look out sir, so rarely care. And it's just S3 on the rest of the template still. Slightly dissapointing meteor. Overall, you take this for the hit buff, and the extra magic dice, and probably ignore the bound spell in favor of using your dice on prayers instead. Verdict: Good

So, where does this leave the Empire overall? Well, we've taken a serious hit to our ability to knock holes in enemy units as they cross the table towards us. Our troops are still bad in combat, and we now get fewer of them thanks to the points increases across the board. We have access to some nice buffs, from the Hurricanum and battle prayers, but our units rely heavily on stacking multiple buffs to stand up to most other books troops in combat, and buff stacking while nice on paper, rarely works out in practice. We've lost alot of killing power, and gained little in return which overall is going to make the Empire significantly harder to play. Expect to lose often, and heavily for the first while playing with the new book while finding out what works well and what doesn't, and even after that expect to lose more often than you win against the better books of the new edition. I cant pretend I'm not dissapointed with what Cruddace has done to the Empire, and even more I'm dissapointed that of all the new model releases, only the Hurricanum and War Altar are actually worthwhile really.

Overall verdict: Below Average

JohnnoM wrote:Steam tank is disgusting, it can dish out 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d3 impact hits at str 6! OMG!!!

And? Hit it with a cannon ball, wound on 2's, laugh

Johnny-Crass wrote:

JohnnoM wrote:Steam tank is disgusting, it can dish out 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d3 impact hits at str 6! OMG!!!

And? Hit it with a cannon ball, wound on 2's, laugh

Stegadons have it worse...

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:

JohnnoM wrote:Steam tank is disgusting, it can dish out 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d3 impact hits at str 6! OMG!!!

And? Hit it with a cannon ball, wound on 2's, laugh

Stegadons have it worse...

Every monster has it the same now. And Stegs were never T10....

So...you're unhappy that the Stank dies like everyone else?
Well, that's a compelling argument.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:So...you're unhappy that the Stank dies like everyone else?

10 wounds with 1+ armor makes the stank far different from the vast majority of monsters, as some of us depend on chipping giant things apart in combat to make them go away. Also, it's extremely huge that the engineer can keep the stank from falling down holes half of the time.

There are plenty of voices decrying the 'losers' of the book, here are my thoughts on a few winners after a quick read:

Warrior Priests - I had heard that they wouldn't be able to give Hatred to units any longer, but apparently that was quite wrong! Innate bound spells are groovy and seem quite legit - hooray for more augments - and the ability to channel is a decent way to get around the ridiculous +1 dispel die of last edition. Very happy with how priests have turned out (didn't look at lectors much, assuming similar situation).

Laser Cart & Hurricane Cart - I like them both, though leaning towards the hurricanum for the +1 to Hit ability, and find them well priced and a neat pair when taken together (+1 dispel and +1 power is awesome as well). Happy to see that they aren't ridiculously survivable (warshrine) nor stupidly powerful (cauldron). The downside IMO is the height of the models but that can be fixed.

Bound Spells Everywhere - So the reason I like the carts is because of their innate bounds, and really the army is filled with an immense amount of innate bounds, on top of the ability to generate power dice to run them. As the casket of souls shows, there's a huge amount of power in innate bounds, whether you've got a full phase and can pop some dice through each one, or just toss a handful through a big one and shrug when it goes IF. Should make for a different flavor of magic phase - some of which opponents won't like thanks to IF abuse (though I'm not seeing a Light of Undeath level of spell amongst all those Empire bounds) - and also might mean you don't have to take one of those now cheaper wizard lords in every game. I am always happy to see level 4's not be required, as that instantly unlocks a variety of list possibilities (WoC, I'm looking at you for the flipside of this).

Steam Tank - Ya'll can go back and forth about its survivability with T6, but I think the changes to the steam cannon alone make it much scarier than it ever was before. Before I'd tie it up forever or drop it down a hole, now I actually have to worry about it jumping over gaps and cooking through multiple units!

There are other things I'm happy to see - nerf to mortars (even if it went too far), increased cannon price, removal of various items and upcosting of others - but the bounds and the stank stood out immediately. Somewhat saddened by the beefy griffon - T5 with no armor means dead birdy - and tis a pity that bloodroar is not part of its cost. 170 with it would be ok, 195 starts to push things a tad far. And of course mine would have to have two heads

Are demigryphs really T3? How ... unfortunate

EDIT

Two Other Thoughts:
1. Very much like the witch hunter, extremely cool unit but with just two attaks I'll be interested in seeing how people kit him out to do anything. Can he take a repeater pistol (the triple shot one)? Maybe witch hunter on a flying carpet with brace of repeaters for sniper KB death?!
2. Wow pigeon bombs are still terrible. Aren't they supposed to, according to their fluff, assassinate dudes by sitting on their head? But the template it generates means that the character will be LOS!-ed out of the way, and would only take one wound anyway. Assuming you can roll 5+ in the first place

- Salvage

Yeah, I think GW derped a bit when they put a T3 rider on a T4 mount. :/
Gryphons don't have armor? Not even barding? That's silly.

Oh the Stank has 10 wounds?
...why is everyone complaining that its supposedly easy to kill them?
I mean, it has bloody 10 wounds and 1+ armor! That's amazing for what, a 200pt model?