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zeekill wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:If the Steam tank to T6 is accurate.. wow.

I might start to think certain designers are trolling us.

I dunno...it may not be that bad. I mean, it still gets a 2+ save and a bunch of wounds right?

After taking 1 wound it has a 33% chance of being useless and taking more damage each turn

After taking 3 Wounds it has a 50% chance of being useless and taking more damage each turn

Essentially, the thing is worthless for any more than 200 pts now

I don't understand. Can you please elaborate?

biccat wrote:
Actually, these comments are generally based on people who do have the book - or at least attest that they have the book.

So...EXACTLY what I said then? Yeah.

Let's get the book in our hands, then whine and complain.

curran12 wrote:So...EXACTLY what I said then? Yeah.

Let's get the book in our hands, then whine and complain.

If by "EXACTLY" you mean "nothing at all", then yes.

over a book that nobody has read

Not true.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

zeekill wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:If the Steam tank to T6 is accurate.. wow.

I might start to think certain designers are trolling us.

I dunno...it may not be that bad. I mean, it still gets a 2+ save and a bunch of wounds right?

After taking 1 wound it has a 33% chance of being useless and taking more damage each turn

After taking 3 Wounds it has a 50% chance of being useless and taking more damage each turn

Essentially, the thing is worthless for any more than 200 pts now

I don't understand. Can you please elaborate?

The rumor right now is that the Steam Tank rolls an artillery die every turn to determine Steam Points. If the Artillery Die roll is equal to or lower than your current remaining wounds, you generate that many Steam Points. If the roll is higher or a misfire, however, you generate no steam points, and suffer a malfunction (if anything like this edition's, causing another wound on the Steam Tank). Or, in other words, if you have seven wounds, an 8, 10, or ! result on the Artillery Die will leave your Steam Tank stuck where it is injuring itself.

Meanwhile, in this edition, the system is D6+Steam Points (attempted). Same issue (if above current wounds, suffer wound. If equal or below, generate Steam Points and act as normal), but you can choose how many Steam Points you're going for, and being Toughness 10 it's harder to disable the Steam Tank in the first place.

So...that must mean the tank has 10 wounds then. Still not too shabby. Any word on how killy it is?

biccat wrote:

curran12 wrote:So...EXACTLY what I said then? Yeah.

Let's get the book in our hands, then whine and complain.

If by "EXACTLY" you mean "nothing at all", then yes.

over a book that nobody has read

Not true.

Then show me something that is the actual book, not internet rumor. All I'm asking.

And, to that end, let's see a complete look at the book.

Not killy enough for T6 W1

Yes, that is what I mean. W1. Because after 1 wound its just plain unreliable.

zeekill wrote:Not killy enough for T6 W1

Yes, that is what I mean. W1. Because after 1 wound its just plain unreliable.

At 9 wounds its still reliable. It only fails on a 10 and a misfire then. Assuming it has 10 wounds to begin with that is. Anything less will be a bit dumb considering the supposed new rules.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

zeekill wrote:Not killy enough for T6 W1

Yes, that is what I mean. W1. Because after 1 wound its just plain unreliable.

At 9 wounds its still reliable. It only fails on a 10 and a misfire then. Assuming it has 10 wounds to begin with that is. Anything less will be a bit dumb considering the supposed new rules.

It takes 1 wound from magic turn 2

Turn 3 you set up a charge for turn 4.

Going into Turn 4, there is already a 1/3 chance that the Stank is going to fail miserably and take damage.

Before, It was 1/6 chance for max damage, or you can choose to just generate less points and have no issue.

New rule is crap unless its 175-ish points, which it obviously won't be

curran12 wrote:Then show me something that is the actual book, not internet rumor. All I'm asking.

Markus Wolfhart has Hatred towards Monsters.

I'm not going to play the "that's just an internet rumor" game. This thread, and others on the Empire book, is about the information that's available. Either you acknowledge it as coming from valid sources who say they have the book and participate, or dismiss it as "internet rumor" and don't participate.

To come into the thread and make insulting and rude comments is not productive, not helpful, and most definitely not polite.

biccat wrote:
Markus Wolfhart has Hatred towards Monsters.

I'm not going to play the "that's just an internet rumor" game. This thread, and others on the Empire book, is about the information that's available. Either you acknowledge it as coming from valid sources who say they have the book and participate, or dismiss it as "internet rumor" and don't participate.

To come into the thread and make insulting and rude comments is not productive, not helpful, and most definitely not polite.

Fine. That's the information that's available. Reliability is probably decent given the proximity of the codex release, so I bet a decent amount of it is true.

BUT (don't you always hate that but?)

It's an incomplete picture. All we have are a bits from the White Dwarf and internet posts of variable reliability. We do not have a codex in our hands and until we do, all of this to me is "OMG THE SKY IS FALLING" foolishness. If the codex proves to be bad, hey, I'll be the first one to say it's bad. I'm just not into snap reflexive whining based on one unit in a codex. At its worst, it is foolish panic/drama mongering, and at its most innocuous, it is simply shortsighted to start this kind of nonsense until we see the whole picture.

If that's too impolite or mean for you, I don't know what do tell ya, buddy. I'm one of those folks who reserves judgment until I see the whole picture, or book in this instance. So simmer down and just deal with folks who aren't ready to take up their pitchforks and torches just because you ask them to.

Wait, are people complaining the steam tank stayed T6?

Surtur wrote:Wait, are people complaining the steam tank stayed T6?

Stayed? Steamtank has been toughness 10 since the FAQ came out for 8th ed

I notice the warsneer rumour thread has been removed.

That video was a really bad idea. I mean, at the end of the day Warhammer is a game of toy figures played by people who like to think they're doing anything but playing a game of toy figures, and I've mostly been able to keep that mentality. But then, when Cruddace is sitting there with cheesy music in the background overpronouncing 'death' and 'blood', it's really hard to pretend this is anything other than a game for small children.

In other news, the new book looks pretty weak. They've played the same trick as the Tyranid's book, charging us for the potential of synergy from character's special rules and war machines, and then charging us extra for those special rules when we buy the characters. And it might be even worse than the Tyranid book, because at least there the special rules on offer were pretty powerful, here they look pretty underwhelming, and we're paying a fair price to get them (seriously, access to +1 to hit and cold blooded on break tests is supposed to justify paying 7 points for a WS 4 human with a sword and shield?)

The more I look at the rules the more I like them. They completely change the way you have to approach the army, but I think they are still playable.

The first thing you have to realize is that gunline is dead, the army is mainly close co...mbat oriented. Shooting will still work, but you won't have a lot of it, and it exists to thin down the opponents ranks before you fight the combat.

The second thing is that you really only have two builds: State Troops or Knights. You can mix and match to some extent, but the most effective builds will be predominantly one or the other (and by predominantly I mean most of your units will be either State Troops or Knights, with maybe one or two small ones of the other option thrown in for variety or support.

The state troop build will be large bricks of infantry w/ a handful of naked characters in each one (captain for Hold the Line, Warrior Priest for buffs, Witch Hunter to give you some oomph vs. enemy characters, the Captain is mandatory, the warrior priest is as well unless you take an Arch Lector, the Witch Hunter is just there for fun), supported by smaller large bricks of infantry (detachments which benefit from the parent unit buffs). Coupled with a Generals Inspiring Presence and a BSB, this gives you bricks of units that take leadership checks on 3d6 ignore the highest, with a reroll, are steadfast, stubborn, possibly have hatred (still not sure on the Warrior Priest, might only be arch lector/altar bubble) and have countercharging support units that also have all these benefits and can potentially hit the enemies flank to negate their rank bonuses. The remainder of your points (because at this point you're probably sitting around 1500 (assuming state troops are primarily spearmen with a single brick of greatswordsmen, and most likely halberdiers as detachment unless you're getting fancy w/ archers/crossbowmen/handgunner), because not taking around 150-200 state troops minimum would be foolish) is spent on cannons and the new wizard wagons to give you some more oomph against big gribblies and further buffs to your state troops (additional power/dispel die, 6++ bubble and/or+1 to hit in cc bubble), or maybe a couple small units of whatever (knights/demigryph knights most likely)to provide the flanks of your army with some protection. Personally, I like the build. Its not moving anywhere unless you want it to, it can put out a ton of attacks potentially w/ rerolls to hit/wound/+1 to hit, etc. and its fluff in that its nothing fancy, the vast majority of your army is composed of simple humans trying to survive in a world full of monsters, daemons, and creatures of terror.

The Knight build im not quite as familiar with , but its more or less Brettonia lite: a bunch of expensive/awesome mounted special characters and blocks of knights in core/special w/ additional support from light cav (pistoliers/outriders) and the option for monstrous cav in the form of Demigryph Knights which are totally awesome btw.

No, its not a powerful book, no it isn't sound/intelligent game design, but its definitely viable.

No, its not a powerful book, no it isn't sound/intelligent game design, but its definitely viable.

... in a friendly environment.

Just going off of rumors right now, I think this book sounds weaker than Brettonia or Wood Elves now. At least those have mobility, and ranks on cavalry in the case of Brettonia

CthuluIsSpy wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=czTmAAySAOc

I know that this may seem mean, but Cruddace comes off as being a tool.
I just don't like him that much, you know?

ehh, he seems more weird to me, than a tool...

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:ehh, he seems more weird to me, than a tool...

He sounds like he's talking to small children. Which, to a large extent, he is.

zeekill wrote:

No, its not a powerful book, no it isn't sound/intelligent game design, but its definitely viable.

... in a friendly environment.

Just going off of rumors right now, I think this book sounds weaker than Brettonia or Wood Elves now. At least those have mobility, and ranks on cavalry in the case of Brettonia

I disagree, but I increasingly think the state troop build is the way to go a massive deathstar loaded up with characters for support etc. and when I say massive, I mean massive... almost ridiculously so... I know its unsound for a lot of reasons, but I've actually been considering a 1400 pt (before characters) State Troop deathstar... 100 spearmen supported by 2 detachments of 50 handgunners... Deploy spearmen in 5 ranks of 20, handgunners in 2 ranks of 25. Use remaining points to load up on warmachines and MSU units (knights, demigryph knights, small units of greatswordsmen, etc.). The brick and associated detachments aren't going anywhere... you basically dont have to fear flank charges because those 3 units will cover the ENTIRE length of your deployment zone, the stand and shoot reactions from the handgunners will make your opponents loathe to assault them, likewise supporting your spearmen brick (which is itself scary as hell) will make your opponent loathe to charge it. Given the obscene quantity of handgunners you have, you can realistically expect them to do the gunline thing and do more than just a handful of casualties a turn. Your warmachines (cannons for hunting monsters, hellblasters to assist the handgunner gunline in thinning down enemy units at range) support the army by breaking tougher nuts.The MSU's are there to mop up, as well as to marchblock/charge redirect and harass your enemy to prevent them from doing serious damage to your gunline (at the end of the day, you want to channel your opponent into your megabrick...)...

I would have trouble justifying such a build as a serious attempt to play the game in a tournament, and it sounds unfun for casual play, so realistically i would never do it... but its there...

Except at the end of the day they are still state troops and are horrid in combat.

We still have cannons, (albeit more expensive cannons) and Helstorms/Helblasters. Additionally, Demigryph knights sound ace as well as the new Griffons.

State troops did go up, but with Hold the Line looks like they'll stick around longer. Additionally, Warrior Priest prayers got a bit better, from what I've heard (Re-rolls to wound, or 5++ Ward) Spearmen finally became viable again. The big wizard engines seem pretty cool, and the abilities sound pretty good.

Overall, while Cruddace once again took something good and flopped it over, it's by no means Warhammer Fantasy Tyranids bad. After the initial shocks I'm sure Empire will still be able to maintain its competitive edge. I'm not terribly happy with the end results, but it could have definitely been worse. (Tomb Kings *shudder*)

chaos0xomega wrote:I would have trouble justifying such a build as a serious attempt to play the game in a tournament, and it sounds unfun for casual play, so realistically i would never do it... but its there...

That build was there in the last book, but 100 points cheaper.

curran12 wrote:It's an incomplete picture. All we have are a bits from the White Dwarf and internet posts of variable reliability.

I have to agree here. When the VC book was coming and all we had was White Dwarf information and 'reliable information', everyone still cried about Zombies still being completely worthless and never a good option for a tarpit.

That turned out well.

-Loki- wrote:

curran12 wrote:It's an incomplete picture. All we have are a bits from the White Dwarf and internet posts of variable reliability.

I have to agree here. When the VC book was coming and all we had was White Dwarf information and 'reliable information', everyone still cried about Zombies still being completely worthless and never a good option for a tarpit.

That turned out well.

Thank you!

The amount of hyperbole in this thread is mind boggling. I'm glad some people see this as an incomplete picture.

curran12 wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

curran12 wrote:It's an incomplete picture. All we have are a bits from the White Dwarf and internet posts of variable reliability.

I have to agree here. When the VC book was coming and all we had was White Dwarf information and 'reliable information', everyone still cried about Zombies still being completely worthless and never a good option for a tarpit.

That turned out well.

Thank you!

The amount of hyperbole in this thread is mind boggling. I'm glad some people see this as an incomplete picture.

Indeed. A nice mixture of interwebz bits waving and 'fashionable' GW sneering.

Well, we have heard nothing but negative changes is everything but 3 things:

Gryffons - which will still suck as they are still only T5 no save, and monsters without horde killing abilities suck.

Knights - which will still suck because cavalry sucks this edition.

Demiknights - which are our only hope (other than things we dont know anything about), but from rumors I hear they will be about the same cost as mournfang calv.

All the choices that were nice and overpowered are gone.

Unbreakable WA? Gone.
Unbreakable Unkillable Stank? Gone.
Underpriced devastating mortars? Gone.
Underpriced devastating hellblaster? Gone.
Free Dispel Dice from Priests? Gone.
Access to entire Lore of Light on WA? Gone.
Underpriced Cannons? Less underpriced.

I also dare predict the removal of at least 3 of the following:

VHS
Rod of Power
Armor of MI for super cheap
Sword of Sigismund
Holy Icon (just the fact that it is a duplicate 4++ for the same cost is good)

Myself, I'm more annoyed at people complaining about my beloved Codex: Tyranids. Ok, it's not perfect, but it's still better than the 4th edition book.

/rant.

Edit: Typo.

Squigsquasher wrote:Myself, I'm more annoyed at people complaining about my beloved Codex: Tyranids. Ok, it's not perfect, but it's still better than the 4th edition book.

/rant.

Edit: Typo.

Hahahahaahahahahaha.

No its not. Not even close IMO.

But that is a topic for a different thread.

zeekill wrote:Demiknights - which are our only hope (other than things we dont know anything about), but from rumors I hear they will be about the same cost as mournfang calv.

...and are T3, because you use the toughness of the rider, not the mount.

Yayyyyyyy.

zeekill wrote:VHS

Nerfed.

zeekill wrote:Armor of MI

Overcosted

zeekill wrote:Rod of Power
Sword of Sigismund
Holy Icon (just the fact that it is a duplicate 4++ for the same cost is good)

Gone.

sebster wrote:access to +1 to hit and cold blooded on break tests is supposed to justify paying 7 points for a WS 4 human with a sword and shield?

Well...I got to thinking about this.

The Swordsman has WS4 and a 6++, spearmen are WS3 and no parry. That means the swordsman is usually going to have about a 1/3 increased chance of survival (enemies hit on 4's instead of 3's, 6++ save) in combat where it matters. In most combats, this will translate into +1 or +2 Combat Resolution.

The swordsman is 7 while a spearman is 5 (I think with a shield). So you're paying a slight premium over spearmen, but the swordsmen are still a better deal than spearmen.

I think swordsmen will continue to be the best core troops for an infantry block.

sebster wrote:That build was there in the last book, but 100 points cheaper.

But in the previous book, that build would get decimated by a small (16) unit of Chaos Warriors and run off the table. At least now it will stick around (until your captain dies).

I think I'm moving towards the acceptance stage.