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Zweischneid wrote:
Which has been a prominent constant in 40K for 25 years now. Makes one wonder why you choose the hobby in the first place if it so aggravates you?

Seconded.

AngryMarine wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:
Which has been a prominent constant in 40K for 25 years now. Makes one wonder why you choose the hobby in the first place if it so aggravates you?

Seconded.

Read my post.

I did. I made as little sense as anything else you've posted this morning.

AngryMarine wrote:I did. I made as little sense as anything else you've posted this morning.

Dumbass Ward lover. Go crawl back down the drain.

Personal attacks are against Dakka Dakka rules. Thanks ~Manchu

AngryMarine wrote:Another internet badass. You have franchise hate, nothing more.

No, you're just ignoring the points put to you.

Nom

TheRobotLol wrote:

AngryMarine wrote:I did. I made as little sense as anything else you've posted this morning.

Dumbass Ward lover

Ultramarine lover, not Ward. It is good to see the pinnacle of your argumentative prowess.

nomsheep wrote:

AngryMarine wrote:Another internet badass. You have franchise hate, nothing more.

No, you're just ignoring the points put to you.

Nom

Thank you Nomsheep

Guys chill afore the mods get involved and peeps get in trouble.

Nom

AngryMarine wrote:

TheRobotLol wrote:

AngryMarine wrote:I did. I made as little sense as anything else you've posted this morning.

Dumbass Ward lover

Ultramarine lover, not Ward. It is good to see the pinnacle of your argumentative prowess.

You have pretty much ignored all those who actually answer your original question. Why make the thread and ask the question if you ignore the answers?

nomsheep wrote:Guys chill afore the mods get involved and peeps get in trouble.

Nom

I concur. The answer is, haters gonna hate.

Just ignoring my quesion AngryMarine, I see.

TheRobotLol wrote:Just ignoring my quesion AngryMarine, I see.

You just continually ignore that everything you seem to hate "about Ward" with respect to Ultramarines has existed in 40K since Mat Ward was busy getting ready for his first day in pre-school.

TheRobotLol wrote:

AngryMarine wrote:

TheRobotLol wrote:

AngryMarine wrote:I did. I made as little sense as anything else you've posted this morning.

Dumbass Ward lover

Ultramarine lover, not Ward. It is good to see the pinnacle of your argumentative prowess.

You have pretty much ignored all those who actually answer your original question. Why make the thread and ask the question if you ignore the answers?

Few actually answered the question originally posted. What I got was "Ward bad" and "they win alot." People didn't tell me why they don't like the chapter. This is a question of the fluff, not the business.


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Also, you're arguement is no longer worth my time.

Yes. The fluff. Which Ward gave them.

TheRobotLol wrote:Yes. The fluff. Which Ward gave them.

What parts of the fluff are those exactly? And what of it is different to the fluff other authors gave to other chapters?

There is, in truth, little that's genuinely objectionable about the Ultramarines themselves, it's simply that their status as the favourites of The Great Beast has made them despised by association.

TheRobotLol wrote:Yes. The fluff. Which Ward gave them.

L2Research. Ultramarines have almost always been the favored children of both the designers and the actual universe.

Index Astartes:
"Of all the Codex Champters, the most famous is the Ultramarines, the Chapter of Roboute Guilliman himself, and many of the other Codex Chapters are descended from their genetic line."
"The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful whether it could. However, with subsequent foundings they have always favoured the Ultramarines' gene-seed and created new Codex Chapters from their line. "
"It is believed that there are approximately a thousand in existence today, scattered throughout the galaxy. Of these more than half are descended from the Ultramarines, either directly or through one of the Primogenitor Chapters of the Second Founding."
"Those chapters created from the Ultramarines geneseed stored on T erra are known, collectively, as the Primogenitors or first born, and they also venerate Roboute Guilliman as their founding father."
"Every one of the esoteric organs utilized by the Ultramarines are fully functional, and it can be truly be said of this Chapter that they are as perfect today as they were in the days of Guilliman himself."

Wow! Ward wrote so much before he was even hired! He even did it under the pseudo-nym of Andy Chambers and Rick Priestly.

I wouldn't describe my feelings as "hate". More of a /rollseyes reaction to them. They are portrayed as the shining beacon of everything good about the asartes. That's going to spark up hatred no matter what. They are kinda like superman with no kryptonite. I was always more of a batman kinda guy, someone who isn't always perfect and maybe has a dark side to them.

I've played against a friend who plays them on the table and if I win (he is a great guy and a good player, we split a lot of games) he comes up with some story/fluff excuse as to who the amazing all powerful Ultramarines decided to lose this battle, or flee to fight another day. I suppose it's how you should play that chapter.

Like it or not, Ward is tied to these guys. A lot of us remember this game when it was darker, much darker. The asartes didn't always win. The universe was full of awful xenos and chaos abominations that would rip your lungs out even if you did wear shiny blue armor and act like a Greek god who's excrement didn't stink. Some of the new fluff makes the asartes out to be the justice league and the ultramarines are superman. I enjoy that kind of thing, but I always liked 40k because it was different and, well, grimdark!

The statements about the Ultramarines being the best of the best and what every asartes aspires to be, don't help things any. Their primarch was dumb enough to get fooled into not being present at the siege of Terra while Sanguinus gave up his life fighting Horus after he just beat down a bunch of bloodthirsters. The white scars, blood angels and imperial fists all got beat up during the siege as well. The drop site massacre? Salamanders, Raven guard and Iron hands all got destroyed, no Ultra involvement there.

Then after Horus was killed and Chaos finally ran away to the eye of terror, Guilliman decides he's going to take charge and force the other legions to do what he says. No wonder a lot of primarchs had a problem with him. Then he got his neck owned by a tranny snake daemon.

After typing all that.. yea maybe I do hate them.

Unfortunately, I don't have C: Ultramarines saved on this machine and scribd is blocked at work or I could find even older instances of Ward's deception (from 2nd Edition!!!)!

Zweischneid wrote:
Despite this, I also agree with (especially) the last third of Ward's interview. He put "the battles" back into 40K Codexes (which has become standard by now), relieving us of the tedious, descriptive school-book-style of 4th Edition books that simply told the reader what each army was like, rather than portraying it through the actions and battles they participate in.

The 4th ed books had stories and anecdotes as well though.

Nom

Khornesnake wrote:Their primarch was dumb enough to get fooled into not being present at the siege of Terra while Sanguinus gave up his life fighting Horus after he just beat down a bunch of bloodthirsters. The white scars, blood angels and imperial fists all got beat up during the siege as well. The drop site massacre? Salamanders, Raven guard and Iron hands all got destroyed, no Ultra involvement there.

Umm. You might want to research the UM's role in the heresy a bit better. They were tied up by the Word Bearers at Calth for too long to make the Siege.

AngryMarine wrote:

Few actually answered the question originally posted. What I got was "Ward bad" and "they win alot." People didn't tell me why they don't like the chapter. This is a question of the fluff, not the business.

nomsheep wrote:

1) Because they are poster poys therefore easier to hate.

2) The codex states that all chapters recognize marneous(sp?) Calgar (and therefore robuitte(sp?) Guilliman) as their spiritual liege and those that don't are abherrant.

3) Matt Ward wrote them

4) Calgar beats the Gak out of the Avatar of Khaine

Nom

nomsheep wrote:Ultras are the poster boys of 40k.

People will always hate on what's popular for if for no other reason at all other than it's popular.

Nom

Deadshot wrote:I hate that when GW don't have a chapter for an epic story, its always UM that they use. OPnce or twice where they are actually concerned, like an Ultramar Invasion or the Tau Empire, fine, but a bunch of Marines fly down umpteen hundred light yerars to fight Hive Fleets, Necrons and whatever else on the other side of the galaxy is moronic when other chapters are better positioned to do so.

To build on what nom said, I would like to mention a quick story in Feb's WD where Marneus Calgar takes on the Swarmlord of Kraken. He charges out of his Drop Pod, gives the Swarmlord the old 1-2. Swarmlord's out of it, Calgar standing triump[hantly over the alien corpse-Wait! Back up a minute. This is the same swarmlord that almost killed Marneus Calgar at the Battle for Maccragge, and outsmarted every strategy and tactic Papa Smurf came up with, somertimes even before Calgar had thought them through completely? The one that is respawned with the exact same memories, therefore next time he fights an enemy, he is better equipped to do so? He beats Calgar in round 1, but loses in round 2? If Ward didn't write that then my left butt cheek is a squat and the right one is Creed.


Also, though I know rules =/= fluff, Marneus Calgar, in game terms, has no chance against the Swarmlord.

PapaPiggy wrote:I think its how 'eavy metal as painted them in the past. Red bolters on a bright blue god awful looking marine. There is something wrong with that on every level. plus, birds gotta fly. Fish gotta swim, and haters got to hate.

The whole avatar fluff with the ultra marines isn't bad. They both got screwed up in the fight, one just happened to win.

These are all fine mostly non-ward related answers to what you asked.

No-one complains that they win, just that their victories go against previous fluff or don't make sense.

Nom

pretre wrote:

Khornesnake wrote:Their primarch was dumb enough to get fooled into not being present at the siege of Terra while Sanguinus gave up his life fighting Horus after he just beat down a bunch of bloodthirsters. The white scars, blood angels and imperial fists all got beat up during the siege as well. The drop site massacre? Salamanders, Raven guard and Iron hands all got destroyed, no Ultra involvement there.

Umm. You might want to research the UM's role in the heresy a bit better. They were tied up by the Word Bearers at Calth for too long to make the Siege.

Right but not just coincidentally. Kor Phaeron was working for Horus to delay their arrival at Terra. They weren't the only ones that were out and about and not able to help out. It's the only reason Horus could assault Terra to begin with and when the remaining chapters were hours away he went for broke and opened his defenses. I suppose it could have been been a helpful coincidence, but I always read it as being planned ahead of time by Horus. Much like the whole 1k sons vs wolves set up.

nomsheep wrote:

These are all fine mostly non-ward related answers to what you asked.

No-one complains that they win, just that their victories go against previous fluff or don't make sense.

Nom

How do their victories go against previous fluff? Or how have UM (or Ward in generally) ever written anything remotely as ridiculous as, say, Maugan Ra defening an entire planet from a full-blown Tyranid Hive fleet all by himself, or, perhaps, an Ork Boss time travelling about to kill his own self for spare weapons (yah.. the old "dark, gritty days of 40K they were) or the famous "Inquistior Obi-Wan Sherlock Clouseau" and his famous skin-tight power-armour (I still want one of those)?

Khornesnake wrote:

pretre wrote:

Khornesnake wrote:Their primarch was dumb enough to get fooled into not being present at the siege of Terra while Sanguinus gave up his life fighting Horus after he just beat down a bunch of bloodthirsters. The white scars, blood angels and imperial fists all got beat up during the siege as well. The drop site massacre? Salamanders, Raven guard and Iron hands all got destroyed, no Ultra involvement there.

Umm. You might want to research the UM's role in the heresy a bit better. They were tied up by the Word Bearers at Calth for too long to make the Siege.

Right but not just coincidentally. Kor Phaeron was working for Horus to delay their arrival at Terra. They weren't the only ones that were out and about and not able to help out. It's the only reason Horus could assault Terra to begin with and when the remaining chapters were hours away he went for broke and opened his defenses. I suppose it could have been been a helpful coincidence, but I always read it as being planned ahead of time by Horus. Much like the whole 1k sons vs wolves set up.

It was planned, but it isn't like he was fooled. He was assaulted by an entire legion of space marines, not told 'hey look a unicorn!' (although he was asked to go investigate a system near ultramar previous to the heresy, which may have been a preemptive move by Horus).

Also, SW vs 1k Sons was setup by the Emperor; horus merely modified the end result. So, the Big E took the SW and a good portion of the Sisters of Silence and Custodians out of the defense of Terra, not Horus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zweischneid wrote:
How do their victories go against previous fluff? Or how have UM (or Ward in generally) ever written anything remotely as ridiculous as, say, Maugan Ra defening an entire planet from a full-blown Tyranid Hive fleet all by himself, or, perhaps, an Ork Boss time travelling about to kill his own self for spare weapons (yah.. the old "dark, gritty days of 40K they were) or the famous "Inquistior Obi-Wan Sherlock Clouseau" and his famous skin-tight power-armour (I still want one of those)?

Don't forget crashing your bike through void shields and into the cockpit of a titan to destroy it.

Khornesnake wrote: A lot of us remember this game when it was darker, much darker.

Yah. Those mythical "dark, dark days" of 40K.

pretre wrote:

Khornesnake wrote:

pretre wrote:

Khornesnake wrote:Their primarch was dumb enough to get fooled into not being present at the siege of Terra while Sanguinus gave up his life fighting Horus after he just beat down a bunch of bloodthirsters. The white scars, blood angels and imperial fists all got beat up during the siege as well. The drop site massacre? Salamanders, Raven guard and Iron hands all got destroyed, no Ultra involvement there.

Umm. You might want to research the UM's role in the heresy a bit better. They were tied up by the Word Bearers at Calth for too long to make the Siege.

Right but not just coincidentally. Kor Phaeron was working for Horus to delay their arrival at Terra. They weren't the only ones that were out and about and not able to help out. It's the only reason Horus could assault Terra to begin with and when the remaining chapters were hours away he went for broke and opened his defenses. I suppose it could have been been a helpful coincidence, but I always read it as being planned ahead of time by Horus. Much like the whole 1k sons vs wolves set up.

It was planned, but it isn't like he was fooled. He was assaulted by an entire legion of space marines, not told 'hey look a unicorn!' (although he was asked to go investigate a system near ultramar previous to the heresy, which may have been a preemptive move by Horus).

Also, SW vs 1k Sons was setup by the Emperor; horus merely modified the end result. So, the Big E took the SW and a good portion of the Sisters of Silence and Custodians out of the defense of Terra, not Horus.

Off topic, but I think If the emp. had his way, The wolves and 1k sons would have been on their way back to Terra in time with Magnus' knowledge of the entire heresy. Horus switched Russ from, "bring them back to Terra" to "Wipe them out". This not only delayed Russ longer but also got Magnus to turn to Chaos.

On topic, my point is that I don't think that Guilliman contributed enough during the heresy to give him the right to tell every other legion that they need to split up into smaller chapters and basically do everything he told them to do. Many of the surviving primarchs had an issue with this and I don't blame them.

This gives players like me the feeling that the Ultramarines are a bit too self righteous for my tastes. I don't play any loyalist marines but I would take just about any other chapter over them.

Zweischneid wrote:

nomsheep wrote:

These are all fine mostly non-ward related answers to what you asked.

No-one complains that they win, just that their victories go against previous fluff or don't make sense.

Nom

How do their victories go against previous fluff? Or how have UM (or Ward in generally) ever written anything remotely as ridiculous as, say, Maugan Ra defening an entire planet from a full-blown Tyranid Hive fleet all by himself, or, perhaps, an Ork Boss time travelling about to kill his own self for spare weapons (yah.. the old "dark, gritty days of 40K they were) or the famous "Inquistior Obi-Wan Sherlock Clouseau" and his famous skin-tight power-armour (I still want one of those)?

The stormlord example and explanation.

SIngle handedly beating down the avatar of khaine???

Being everywhere all at once with barely 1000 marines???

Okay, however if you noticed i said people not me. And most of that stuff is being retconned now.

You forgot the fish-people, Zoats and beastmen.

Nom

EDIT: And kreullagh de vile

Khornesnake wrote:Off topic, but I think If the emp. had his way, The wolves and 1k sons would have been on their way back to Terra in time with Magnus' knowledge of the entire heresy. Horus switched Russ from, "bring them back to Terra" to "Wipe them out". This not only delayed Russ longer but also got Magnus to turn to Chaos.

If the Emperor had his way, Magnus wouldn't have destroyed all he worked for and killed half the astropaths on Terra. If the Emperor was just sending a peace mission, he probably wouldn't have sent Custodians and SoS. Yeah, Horus changed the orders, but Big E sent Leman Russ loaded for Bear.

On topic, my point is that I don't think that Guilliman contributed enough during the heresy to give him the right to tell every other legion that they need to split up into smaller chapters and basically do everything he told them to do. Many of the surviving primarchs had an issue with this and I don't blame them.

RG had the largest remaining legion and the support of the current rulers of the Imperium. Yeah, he came up with the Codex Astartes, but it wasn't a hard sell to tell everyone 'Yeah, so we seem to have a problem with Legions going bad. Maybe we should chop them into smaller, easier to manage pieces for safety.'

This gives players like me the feeling that the Ultramarines are a bit too self righteous for my tastes. I don't play any loyalist marines but I would take just about any other chapter over them.

Now this is a valid criticism. The Ultramarines see themselves as perfect and as the heirs to the Imperium because that is how their chapter is constructed. This is why a lot of C: SM has that 'holier than thou' attitude; it is because it was written from the UM POV. You'll notice it is absent from the sections focused on other chapters (like the character bios for SCs, etc).




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I think a lot of people have problems with the newer fluff because they have short memories and have some concept of the old fluff as an inviolate masterpiece that never did anything OTT or silly.

The truth is far from that, however.

Yea and this is just my opinion. I still don't think I "hate" the Ultramarines. I personally don't like the fluff but if they were not around, some of the other chapters wouldn't seem as appealing to me in comparison.