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My personal issue with Ultramarines is the sheer amount of fluff they get for a single chapter. Ure they are the primogenitors or something but even so, that title DOES NOT warrant that much fluff in a collective book. That and they never seem to really lose. There may be losses (the polar fortresses) but they don't sound like losses. Also they amount of characters they get is ludicrous. 1/2 of the books characters are Ultras. They way the codex is written gets me as well. I was literally cringing towards the end of their fluff.

The Crusader wrote:My personal issue with Ultramarines is the sheer amount of fluff they get for a single chapter. Ure they are the primogenitors or something but even so, that title DOES NOT warrant that much fluff in a collective book. That and they never seem to really lose. There may be losses (the polar fortresses) but they don't sound like losses. Also they amount of characters they get is ludicrous. 1/2 of the books characters are Ultras. They way the codex is written gets me as well. I was literally cringing towards the end of their fluff.

You think that the UM's having so much of the fluff and characters in Codex: Space Marines is bad?

I heard that in C:SW, the Space Wolves have 100% of the characters and almost ALL of the fluff! CAN YOU IMAGINE????
Then someone told me the same thing happened in C:BA, C:BT, C: DA, C:CD, C: Necrons, C: Tyranids, C: Chaos Marines, C: Eldar, C: DE, C: Tau, C: SOB and C: Imperial Guard...
I WAS OUTRAGED! How DARE GW put fluff and special characters from the faction that they are representing in their own codex? HOW DARE THEY!

pretre wrote:

The Crusader wrote:My personal issue with Ultramarines is the sheer amount of fluff they get for a single chapter. Ure they are the primogenitors or something but even so, that title DOES NOT warrant that much fluff in a collective book. That and they never seem to really lose. There may be losses (the polar fortresses) but they don't sound like losses. Also they amount of characters they get is ludicrous. 1/2 of the books characters are Ultras. They way the codex is written gets me as well. I was literally cringing towards the end of their fluff.

You think that the UM's having so much of the fluff and characters in Codex: Space Marines is bad?

I heard that in C:SW, the Space Wolves have 100% of the characters and almost ALL of the fluff! CAN YOU IMAGINE????
Then someone told me the same thing happened in C:BA, C:BT, C: DA, C:CD, C: Necrons, C: Tyranids, C: Chaos Marines, C: Eldar, C: DE, C: Tau, C: SOB and C: Imperial Guard...
I WAS OUTRAGED! How DARE GW put fluff and special characters from the faction that they are representing in their own codex? HOW DARE THEY!

Alright, Alright, no nood to get snippy, My point was that the codex is supposed to represent 1, 000 chapters and some of them are reasonably famous. They could have fleshed some of them out, instead of writing reams, and reams, and reams of fluff about a single chapter.

The opperating word in my previous post was this: "they are the primogenitors or something but even so, that title DOES NOT warrant that much fluff in a collective book"
Obviously my post caught a nerve, or you simply didn't read my post properly.

Here's a word of advice: RE-READ POSTS BEFORE YOU POST SOMETHING THAT WILL OFFEND

The Crusader wrote:

Alright, Alright, no nood to get snippy, My point was that the codex is supposed to represent 1, 000 chapters and some of them are reasonably famous. They could have fleshed some of them out, instead of writing reams, and reams, and reams of fluff about a single chapter.

The opperating word in my previous post was this: "they are the primogenitors or something but even so, that title DOES NOT warrant that much fluff in a collective book"
Obviously my post caught a nerve, or you simply didn't read my post properly.

Here's a word of advice: RE-READ POSTS BEFORE YOU POST SOMETHING THAT WILL OFFEND

Fine and jolly. But there is a historic precedent to that. Show me one Codex Space Marine (which did start as Codex Ultramarines way back when) that provides even half of the fluff, characters, information, background, painting advice for non-Ultramarine chapters than the current 5th Edition one by Mat Ward. Putting them all side-to-side, no author ever tasked with a Space Marine Codex has put more non-UM fluff and material, both relative and absolute, in a Codex Space Marine than Mat Ward by a good margin.

And hate it or leave it, that is the idea why people way back then in the 1980s (long, long before Ward) came up with both the idea of the "Codex Astartes" and the idea that all "Codex-Chapters" (including Salamanders, IF, RG, Iron Hands, whathaveyou) aspire to emulate both the Codex and the Ultramarines. These conceptual mcguffins/shortcuts exist, since the very founding of the 40K universe as it currently stands, precisely so that authors of the Space Marine Codex could work their way through the basic concepts of "Space Marines" using the "iconic example", and would not need to fill a manual of repetititve special snowflake entries for a 1000 chapters.

I think I just dislike the fact that they are made out to have.no.flaw but arrogance which is easily obercome.

DA have the Fallen
SW deviate and the Canis Helix and Wulfen thing
IF have a diviant descendent and are not as "awesome sauce" as UM are made out to be
Salamanders have deviance and the genetic anomolies
Raven.Guard are albino
BA have RT/BR
IH.have techno fetishes
WS have biker heavy deviance.

Deadshot wrote:I think I just dislike the fact that they are made out to have.no.flaw but arrogance which is easily obercome.

DA have the Fallen
SW deviate and the Canis Helix and Wulfen thing
IF have a diviant descendent and are not as "awesome sauce" as UM are made out to be
Salamanders have deviance and the genetic anomolies
Raven.Guard are albino
BA have RT/BR
IH.have techno fetishes
WS have biker heavy deviance.

Yah. Because those are all so terrible flaws. A mighty drawback for the Wolves to have a flaw that makes them more "wolfy" to fit their theme. Would have been a real pity if they'd wanted to run a Bird or Lizard as their chapter symbol instead I guess. Same for Iron Hands. Seriously? The are called Iron Hands, have Iron Hands and rule with an Iron Hand. Very subtle there. Raven Guard go albino, though with cool jet-black eyes and hair instead of gakky albino. Phhhf. Salamanders? What flaw exactly that isn't custome made to underline their theme? BA's are "flawed" to be even better in close combat which they specialize in and White Scars are "flawed" to be bikers as bikers is their theme. Real bummers those I must say.

The Crusader wrote:Alright, Alright, no nood to get snippy, My point was that the codex is supposed to represent 1, 000 chapters and some of them are reasonably famous. They could have fleshed some of them out, instead of writing reams, and reams, and reams of fluff about a single chapter.

The opperating word in my previous post was this: "they are the primogenitors or something but even so, that title DOES NOT warrant that much fluff in a collective book"
Obviously my post caught a nerve, or you simply didn't read my post properly.

Here's a word of advice: RE-READ POSTS BEFORE YOU POST SOMETHING THAT WILL OFFEND

Y so mad?

Ultramarines and their successors make up >50% of all chapters in the current universe. Weird that they would make up >50% of the Codex compliant chapters.

Here's a word of advice: I've heard a Sense of Humor is pretty cheap on Amazon.

Why am I so angry? Maybe because I don't like being spoken to like I'm a slow, that's why. And I'll have you know I do infact have a sense of humour, its just that THIS wasn't:

pretre wrote:I heard that in C:SW, the Space Wolves have 100% of the characters and almost ALL of the fluff! CAN YOU IMAGINE????
Then someone told me the same thing happened in C:BA, C:BT, C: DA, C:CD, C: Necrons, C: Tyranids, C: Chaos Marines, C: Eldar, C: DE, C: Tau, C: SOB and C: Imperial Guard...
I WAS OUTRAGED! How DARE GW put fluff and special characters from the faction that they are representing in their own codex? HOW DARE THEY!

P.S. Would you mind turning the sarcasm down just a tad, seeing as ^that^ seemed a rather vicious.

The Crusader wrote:Why am I so angry? Maybe because I don't like being spoken to like I'm a slow, that's why. And I'll have you know I do infact have a sense of humour, its just that THIS wasn't:

I personally thought it was pretty funny. Also, you might want to avoid the R word.

P.S. Would you mind turning the sarcasm down just a tad, seeing as ^that^ seemed a rather vicious.

Sorry if I hurt your feeling pookie, but when you make a declarative statement on a discussion board, it is very possible that someone may challenge your declarative statement. Sometimes they will do it with another declarative statement; sometimes they will use all sorts of tricksy wordplay to do so.

That being said, let's head back to the original topic.

It is not unreasonable to think that Codex: Space Marines, which represents the hundreds of Codex compliant chapters, might have an large amount of information on the Ultramarines. This is especially true because the Ultramarines are the progenitors of greater than 50% of ALL chapters, not just the Codex compliant ones. So that means that if we take out all the weird chapters (BT, SW, etc) and their descendents, UM and their descendents probably make up 60-75% of the entire marine population. Crazy then that they might take up a good chunk of Codex: Space Marines.

I don't see what the big deal is. C:SM has a bunch of Ultramarine fluff, but it has a lot of fluff from the other chapters that use the same codex. Would people get this worked up if the Eldar Codex was mainly about 1 Craftworld, or the Tyranid Codex was about 1 hive fleet?

And hating on the Ultramarines is stupid. Why not hate on GK, BA, or SW, whom are technically more popular since there's more of those MEQ armies than vanilla marines.

They do.

But The face of any product will always get more hate than anything else. (high elves anyone?)

Nom

Zweischneid wrote:

Deadshot wrote:I think I just dislike the fact that they are made out to have.no.flaw but arrogance which is easily obercome.

DA have the Fallen
SW deviate and the Canis Helix and Wulfen thing
IF have a diviant descendent and are not as "awesome sauce" as UM are made out to be
Salamanders have deviance and the genetic anomolies
Raven.Guard are albino
BA have RT/BR
IH.have techno fetishes
WS have biker heavy deviance.

Yah. Because those are all so terrible flaws. A mighty drawback for the Wolves to have a flaw that makes them more "wolfy" to fit their theme. Would have been a real pity if they'd wanted to run a Bird or Lizard as their chapter symbol instead I guess. Same for Iron Hands. Seriously? The are called Iron Hands, have Iron Hands and rule with an Iron Hand. Very subtle there. Raven Guard go albino, though with cool jet-black eyes and hair instead of gakky albino. Phhhf. Salamanders? What flaw exactly that isn't custome made to underline their theme? BA's are "flawed" to be even better in close combat which they specialize in and White Scars are "flawed" to be bikers as bikers is their theme. Real bummers those I must say.

They are flaws because they are imperfections. Your comments.on BA only apply gamewise. In fluff terms deviance from the Codex Astartes.or genetic alterations are flaws.

we really hate the Ultras because they aren't grimdark

I just hate the company favoritism behind it. I understand they put them up as the Poster Boy because that's what sells, but it's just a dick move by the company in my opinion. It's like going to buy Diet Coke and then Coca-Cola puts out an ad saying that Coca-Cola classic beats the piss out of Diet Coke drinking pansy-faeries.

Here's the thing though. It's an annoyance to me. I don't take it past that. I may whine online, but who cares? I know plenty of guys that use Smurfs and I am cool with them. I don't hate the player, I hate the game.

"Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

[Chapters who do not emulate the Ultramarines] are aberrants; chapters who, through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness, eschew the Codex Astartes in favor of other structural and combat doctrines. Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it. Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." - Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer (unfortunately), Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition, p/ 25.


"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege." - Matt Ward


"Indeed, it was Guilliman who would have the greatest lasting effect upon the now leaderless Blood Angels. Through the Codex Astartes - that great treatise on the restructuring and ordering of the Space Marines - Guilliman's legacy would reshape the Blood Angels Legion into the Chapters that defend the Imperium to this day." - Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer, Codex: Blood Angels, p. 7


I don't hate the Ultramarines, I hate Mat Ward

but... You asked for it!

There are ongoing reasons that every other chapter of both Loyalist and Traitor legion are better than the Ultramarines. Here are but a few:

They did not fight against the traitor legions on the walls of the Imperial Palace, fighting with all they had to defend Terra against horrors the likes of which had never been seen before in the history of the Imperium.
That award goes to the Imperial Fists.

They did not lose half of their chapter to heresy A COMPLETELY RANDOM AND COMPLICATED ACCIDENT THAT DID NOT INVOLVE HERESY and engage on a millenia-long crusade of penance to clear their name in the eyes of all other chapters GETTING SMOKES, a never-ending quest that causes them to heroically go up against all odds in order to restore their chapter's shattered TOTALLY AWESOME AND UNDISPUTED honor.
That award goes to the Dark Angels.

They do not have the balls to ignore what their Chapter Master wishes, realizing that a chapter with a decentralized command structure is far more effective, choose instead to, like a few other badasses, do their own thing. This means they head around the galaxy and openly lend their aid to any Imperial Guard, Planetary Government, or Space Marine unit that needs their assistance in sabotage, covert ops, and assassination, which includes an assault on a heavily-fortified Tau outpost that captures the ethereal and leaves hundreds dead via a covert strike from a single squad.
That award goes to the Raven Guard.

They did not wind up taking a heavily-defended city that had dug in with fifty marines after it had 2 weeks to prepare its defenses because taking it the quick way with hundreds of casualties "would have been too easy."
That award goes to the Alpha Legion.

They did not wind up having a Primarch fighting alongside the Emperor deep into Horus' battle barge during the Horus Heresy, only to wind up in a doomed battle that he himself knew he could not win - but fought nonetheless knowing full well that death awaited no matter what course he took.
That award goes to the Blood Angels.

They are not kickass vikings in space with a Primarch that fething kicked that [see forum posting rules] Horus' ass in a duel and who was so manly that the Imperial Guard named a tank after him, which has gone on to be perhaps the most-used tank in the imperial arsenal.
That award goes to the Space Wolves.

They are not crafted from the Emperor's Gene-Seed and are privy to knowledge that would destroy lesser men, tasked with the all-important mission of having to destroy the most powerful entities ever brought about from the warp or die in the attempt (sure as hell would not have lost an entire squad, a Brother-Captain, an Apothecary, And a Chaplain, to ONE lowly fethwit daemon).
That award goes to the Grey Knights.

They are not angry enough to gak plasma grenades and then punch someone in the face with one just to show you how awesome they are.
That award goes to the Angry Marines.

They are not capable of blending in for more than 3 seconds and resolving conflicts by simply talking to their opponents instead of shooting them.
That award goes to the Reasonable Marines.

They are not inhumanly beautiful and unrelentingly persistent.
That award goes to the Pretty Marines.

They are not Space Marine Space Pirates that are out for the plunder, wenches, and cool hats.
That award goes to the Red Corsairs.

They are not angry enough to contest the Angry Marines' claim on being the angriest whilst having the support of an almost-as-angry god, while also being the best melee fighters in the setting.
That award goes to the World Eaters.

They are not created by having a lesser daemon posses them and exorcised later as so to be more resistant to daemonic corruption, which would normally result with most Space Marines going insane.
That award goes to the Exorcists, a chapter descended from the Grey Knights.

They aren't awesomesauce enough to create 2 memes in a single game.
That award goes to the Blood Ravens, specifically to Indrick Boreale.

They don't have thick-enough plot armor to have no more than a hair-etical Force commander, a 4-man tactical squad led by the only bald marine in the group, a 3-man assault marine squad led by a young hair-etic, a 3-man devastator squad led by an angry-as-feth devastator sergeant, a 3-man scout squad led by the most morbidly grimdark scout sergeant to ever live, the only confirmed non- Salamander negro librarian in the entire Imperium, and a senile Dreadnought stand up to a Tyranid invasion and full-blown Chaos intrusion all the while having no form of heavy armor support other than said Dreadnought. Though the 4th Company did hold the line for them while these gaks did all the work.
That award again goes to the Blood Ravens.

They don't have a Hair-etical-enough commander and sergeant with a hairstyle that makes them look like Vanilla Ice.
The award also goes to the Blood Ravens.

They do not go around "acquiring" a very large number of priceless artifacts and wargear from a dozen other Space Marine Chapters, the Adeptus Custodes, the Inquisition, and even from Chaos without getting caught.
That award also goes to was "gifted" to the Blood Ravens.

They didn't manage to troll an entire marine chapter (complete with primarch) by having them assault a heavily fortified fortress, and then ambushing them in said fortress after it was but a trap.
That award goes to the Iron Warriors.

They didn't have the balls to defy the Codex Astartes and have more than 1000 marines in a single chapter in-order to commence a never-ending crusade of awesomeness that resulted in numerous victories, purged millions upon millions of filthy heretics, mutants, and Xenos, while doing it in a medieval-esque fashion that involves them rushing their target with the intent to go CQC as much as possible.
That award goes to the Black Templars.

They did not successfully troll the Ultramarines into not only abandoning Terra on a fool's errand, but kicking the smurfs' asses in the process.
That award also goes to the Alpha Legion.

They are not badass black marines that kick the gak out of foul xenos with flamer and melta weapons even after shreds of their chapter went dumbshit.
That award goes to the Salamanders.

They did not achieve this feat while remaining fundamentally decent human beings in a universe that pisses grimdark.
That award also goes to the Salamanders.

They do not have a very large amount of master crafted and artificer wargear because they give their artificers extra time to make them since each marine maintains his own wargear.
The third award that goes to the Salamanders

They were not capable of getting entire star systems to unconditionally surrender via the mere mention that they were approaching a system.
That award goes to the Night Lords.

They are not a legion who spent ten thousand years enhancing themselves with bionics and has survived decades despite being constantly ignored by Games Workshop.
That award goes to the Iron Hands.

They did not turn traitor to protect priceless bits of lore because daddy wanted to be a fethwit and decided to hate on Psykers.
That award goes to the Thousand Sons.

They did not simultaneously tell both Chaos and the Imperium to feth off due to Tzeentch and now go around the galaxy in a Space Hulk fighting everyone in the name of the Emperor at the command of a half spider Chapter Master.
That award goes to the Soul Drinkers.

They did not have two homeworlds destroyed, been brought back from the brink of extinction many times, then finally have the entire Chapter disappear in the warp, only to come back with a different paint job and name, to help Imperials in their time of need, while battling a warp disease that destroys their sanity but gives them incredible strength.
That award goes to the Fire Hawks/Legion of the Damned.

They do not manage to be tactically competent and even come off as likable and relate-able to the normal people of the Imperium despite being superhuman warriors.
That award goes to the Iron Snakes.

They do not breath fire. (FIRE.)
That award goes to the Fire Lords.

They do not have the highest concentration of Beakies of any chapter.
That award also goes to the Raven Guard.

They were not almost completely destroyed by random chance before rallying their few remaining brothers and defending a city from an Ork waagh! with virtually no reinforcements while avoiding stupidly suicidal moves to someday rebuild their shattered chapter (a feat which most thought would be impossible).
That award goes to the Crimson Fists.

They were not the Legion whose Primarch had such moral integrity that he would never tell a lie if his life or cause depended on it.
That award goes to the Imperial Fists.

They are not listed on Games Workshop own website as the most noble and heroic chapter of Space Marines.
That award goes to the Blood Angels.

They are not a chapter noted for actually defying Inquisitorial if it means preserving innocents who would fight and die for their homeworld.
That award goes to the Space Wolves.

They do not have their nerve systems directly linked to their brains in a way that brings euphoria from any stimulation, nor do they possess weaponry that kills enemies with hard rock.
That award goes to the Emperor's Children.

So? Ultramarines are hated because they are supposedly too awsome and win victories too easily against implausible odds, but they are also hated because all the other chapters are far more awsome than Ultramarines are and won more and more amazing victories against even more implausible odds. That about right?

Lookit, I can walloftext too!

King Pariah wrote:"Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

[Chapters who do not emulate the Ultramarines] are aberrants; chapters who, through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness, eschew the Codex Astartes in favor of other structural and combat doctrines. Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it. Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." - Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer (unfortunately), Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition, p/ 25.

Written from the UM perspective in their own book. SHOCKING.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege." - Matt Ward

In an interview... OH NOES!

"Indeed, it was Guilliman who would have the greatest lasting effect upon the now leaderless Blood Angels. Through the Codex Astartes - that great treatise on the restructuring and ordering of the Space Marines - Guilliman's legacy would reshape the Blood Angels Legion into the Chapters that defend the Imperium to this day." - Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer, Codex: Blood Angels, p. 7

That's fact. Guilliman had a HUGE impact on every Codex Compliant chapter.

There are ongoing reasons that every other chapter of both Loyalist and Traitor legion are better than the Ultramarines. Here are but a few:

They did not fight against the traitor legions on the walls of the Imperial Palace, fighting with all they had to defend Terra against horrors the likes of which had never been seen before in the history of the Imperium.
That award goes to the Imperial Fists.

They did not lose half of their chapter to heresy A COMPLETELY RANDOM AND COMPLICATED ACCIDENT THAT DID NOT INVOLVE HERESY and engage on a millenia-long crusade of penance to clear their name in the eyes of all other chapters GETTING SMOKES, a never-ending quest that causes them to heroically go up against all odds in order to restore their chapter's shattered TOTALLY AWESOME AND UNDISPUTED honor.
That award goes to the Dark Angels.

They do not have the balls to ignore what their Chapter Master wishes, realizing that a chapter with a decentralized command structure is far more effective, choose instead to, like a few other badasses, do their own thing. This means they head around the galaxy and openly lend their aid to any Imperial Guard, Planetary Government, or Space Marine unit that needs their assistance in sabotage, covert ops, and assassination, which includes an assault on a heavily-fortified Tau outpost that captures the ethereal and leaves hundreds dead via a covert strike from a single squad.
That award goes to the Raven Guard.

They did not wind up taking a heavily-defended city that had dug in with fifty marines after it had 2 weeks to prepare its defenses because taking it the quick way with hundreds of casualties "would have been too easy."
That award goes to the Alpha Legion.

They did not wind up having a Primarch fighting alongside the Emperor deep into Horus' battle barge during the Horus Heresy, only to wind up in a doomed battle that he himself knew he could not win - but fought nonetheless knowing full well that death awaited no matter what course he took.
That award goes to the Blood Angels.

They are not kickass vikings in space with a Primarch that fething kicked that [see forum posting rules] Horus' ass in a duel and who was so manly that the Imperial Guard named a tank after him, which has gone on to be perhaps the most-used tank in the imperial arsenal.
That award goes to the Space Wolves.

They are not crafted from the Emperor's Gene-Seed and are privy to knowledge that would destroy lesser men, tasked with the all-important mission of having to destroy the most powerful entities ever brought about from the warp or die in the attempt (sure as hell would not have lost an entire squad, a Brother-Captain, an Apothecary, And a Chaplain, to ONE lowly fethwit daemon).
That award goes to the Grey Knights.

Snipped the 4chan garbage

They are not Space Marine Space Pirates that are out for the plunder, wenches, and cool hats.
That award goes to the Red Corsairs.

They are not angry enough to contest the Angry Marines' claim on being the angriest whilst having the support of an almost-as-angry god, while also being the best melee fighters in the setting.
That award goes to the World Eaters.

They are not created by having a lesser daemon posses them and exorcised later as so to be more resistant to daemonic corruption, which would normally result with most Space Marines going insane.
That award goes to the Exorcists, a chapter descended from the Grey Knights.

Snipped the 4chan garbage

They didn't manage to troll an entire marine chapter (complete with primarch) by having them assault a heavily fortified fortress, and then ambushing them in said fortress after it was but a trap.
That award goes to the Iron Warriors.

They didn't have the balls to defy the Codex Astartes and have more than 1000 marines in a single chapter in-order to commence a never-ending crusade of awesomeness that resulted in numerous victories, purged millions upon millions of filthy heretics, mutants, and Xenos, while doing it in a medieval-esque fashion that involves them rushing their target with the intent to go CQC as much as possible.
That award goes to the Black Templars.

They did not successfully troll the Ultramarines into not only abandoning Terra on a fool's errand, but kicking the smurfs' asses in the process.
That award also goes to the Alpha Legion.

They are not badass black marines that kick the gak out of foul xenos with flamer and melta weapons even after shreds of their chapter went dumbshit.
That award goes to the Salamanders.

They did not achieve this feat while remaining fundamentally decent human beings in a universe that pisses grimdark.
That award also goes to the Salamanders.

They do not have a very large amount of master crafted and artificer wargear because they give their artificers extra time to make them since each marine maintains his own wargear.
The third award that goes to the Salamanders

They were not capable of getting entire star systems to unconditionally surrender via the mere mention that they were approaching a system.
That award goes to the Night Lords.

They are not a legion who spent ten thousand years enhancing themselves with bionics and has survived decades despite being constantly ignored by Games Workshop.
That award goes to the Iron Hands.

They did not turn traitor to protect priceless bits of lore because daddy wanted to be a fethwit and decided to hate on Psykers.
That award goes to the Thousand Sons.

They did not simultaneously tell both Chaos and the Imperium to feth off due to Tzeentch and now go around the galaxy in a Space Hulk fighting everyone in the name of the Emperor at the command of a half spider Chapter Master.
That award goes to the Soul Drinkers.

They did not have two homeworlds destroyed, been brought back from the brink of extinction many times, then finally have the entire Chapter disappear in the warp, only to come back with a different paint job and name, to help Imperials in their time of need, while battling a warp disease that destroys their sanity but gives them incredible strength.
That award goes to the Fire Hawks/Legion of the Damned.

They do not manage to be tactically competent and even come off as likable and relate-able to the normal people of the Imperium despite being superhuman warriors.
That award goes to the Iron Snakes.

They do not breath fire. (FIRE.)
That award goes to the Fire Lords.

They do not have the highest concentration of Beakies of any chapter.
That award also goes to the Raven Guard.

They were not almost completely destroyed by random chance before rallying their few remaining brothers and defending a city from an Ork waagh! with virtually no reinforcements while avoiding stupidly suicidal moves to someday rebuild their shattered chapter (a feat which most thought would be impossible).
That award goes to the Crimson Fists.

They were not the Legion whose Primarch had such moral integrity that he would never tell a lie if his life or cause depended on it.
That award goes to the Imperial Fists.

They are not listed on Games Workshop own website as the most noble and heroic chapter of Space Marines.
That award goes to the Blood Angels.

They are not a chapter noted for actually defying Inquisitorial if it means preserving innocents who would fight and die for their homeworld.
That award goes to the Space Wolves.

They do not have their nerve systems directly linked to their brains in a way that brings euphoria from any stimulation, nor do they possess weaponry that kills enemies with hard rock.
That award goes to the Emperor's Children.

No, they and Guilliman just restructured the Legions in the image of the Codex so as to prevent another Heresy from happening, or at worst mitigate the ones that do. They also became the basis for the vast majority of all living marines (500,000-750,000 of the 1,000,000 current alive marines) by virtue of their untainted genetics. Guess that's not a big deal though.

My problem with the Ultramarines isn't with the Ultramarines themselves (I rather enjoy a Greek / Roman themed chapter actually) but with Guilliman.

That sonovabitch, after the Emperor died, wrote a book that said <THIS IS HOW YOU WIN> and when the Imperial Fists (who are not so bad themselves) said "Wait, let's reconsider..." Guilliman threatened them with civil war.

That would be like Hitler threatening, say, Sun Tzu for saying "Wait, you should reconsider your "ATTACK RUSSIA" plan..."

Guilliman was not the pinnacle of military strategy anymore than Dorn was, or Perturabo, or Alpharius. In fact, the only one I would say who is worse than Guilliman at strategy for sure is Angron, and that's because of a malfunctioning cybernetic implant.

So why does Guilliman get to make all the choices, and since when does he get to threaten the other half of the loyalist astartes for disagreeing?

One, the Codex was written before the Emperor died.
Two, way to get all Godwin on this piece.
Three, actually Guilliman was the pinnacle of strategy. Each primarch had their gifts and Guilliman's was strategy.
Four, Guilliman did what he had to to forge a broken imperium into one that could move forward in the wake of the heresy.
Five, The codex was forced on the legions to prevent a repeat of the heresy AND IT WORKED. Now when a Chapter goes heretic, the problem is contained to less than 1000 marines.

pretre wrote:One, the Codex was written before the Emperor died.
Two, way to get all Godwin on this piece.
Three, actually Guilliman was the pinnacle of strategy. Each primarch had their gifts and Guilliman's was strategy.
Four, Guilliman did what he had to to forge a broken imperium into one that could move forward in the wake of the heresy.
Five, The codex was forced on the legions to prevent a repeat of the heresy AND IT WORKED. Now when a Chapter goes heretic, the problem is contained to less than 1000 marines.

1) I didn't know that - I am almost 100% certain that the codex was written post-heresy, otherwise this is directly contrary to point 5 as it did NOT work.
2) Huhwha? I know what Godwin's Law is, and I suppose I could've used Napoleon instead of Hitler. My bad.
3) I disagree that each primarch had their gifts. I think each primarch had an acquired strength, but it wasn't a genetic strength. And our master of strategy was out-strategied by Horus, so...
4) You act like Guilliman's option was the only option - I do not accept this dichotomy. (Either no progress or Guilliman's progress is a false dichotomy).
5) That's not true - see the Badab War. It really isn't working all that well.

Whatever the Ultramarines may or may not have done during the Horus Heresy. I dare anyone have a look at the 4th Edition Space Marine Codex. It even says explicitly that Horus adjusted all his plans with respect to the Ultramarines, which he considered the biggest threat. Ultramarines were not present on Terra, because Horus knew that the presence of Ultramarines would spell his defeat. All other chapters were a lesser threat in comparison to Ultramarines for the Warmaster.

Codex Space Marines 4th Edition wrote:
Tutored on the world of Macragge, Guilliman understood the logistics of warfare better than any man alive and, together with his surviving brother Primarchs and their Legions, held the scattered defenders of Humanity together through the nightmare days that followed.

Knowing of Guilliman's lethal efficiency in war, Horus had masterfully planned his heresy to begin while the Ultramarines were fighting far in the galactic south, and as a result, the Ultramarines had come through the terrible wars largely unscathed.

Like it or not, that was the official canon until Mat Ward toned it down considerably.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

pretre wrote:One, the Codex was written before the Emperor died.
Two, way to get all Godwin on this piece.
Three, actually Guilliman was the pinnacle of strategy. Each primarch had their gifts and Guilliman's was strategy.
Four, Guilliman did what he had to to forge a broken imperium into one that could move forward in the wake of the heresy.
Five, The codex was forced on the legions to prevent a repeat of the heresy AND IT WORKED. Now when a Chapter goes heretic, the problem is contained to less than 1000 marines.

1) I didn't know that - I am almost 100% certain that the codex was written post-heresy, otherwise this is directly contrary to point 5 as it did NOT work.
2) Huhwha? I know what Godwin's Law is, and I suppose I could've used Napoleon instead of Hitler. My bad.
3) I disagree that each primarch had their gifts. I think each primarch had an acquired strength, but it wasn't a genetic strength. And our master of strategy was out-strategied by Horus, so...
4) You act like Guilliman's option was the only option - I do not accept this dichotomy. (Either no progress or Guilliman's progress is a false dichotomy).
5) That's not true - see the Badab War. It really isn't working all that well.

- Read 'Age of Darkness'. Codex was written before the Heresy was over.
- Umm, yeah.
- The whole point of the primarchs was that they were each individually designed to have different strengths. That's a fundamental part of the universe. Guilliman wasn't out strategied by Horus. He was given a legitimate order, pre-heresy and then was ambushed by an entire legion. That's a bit different than getting outfoxed on the battlefield.
- Luckily, you weren't there.
- Badab War didn't have any Legions go over to chaos. Big difference between Chapters and Legions. If the Badab War had had as many Legions go bad as Chapters actually went bad it would have been a HUGE problem. By chopping everyone up into chapters, Guilliman prevented something on the scale of the Heresy from happening again. It was distasteful, but it worked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To add to Zweischneid's point, they were also the largest Legion at the time of the heresy. This was largely due to some 'recruits' from the missing legions.

Lookit, I can walloftext too!

You missed out where I said I don't hate the UM, I hate Mat Ward

and the rest was sorta joking, you know, after I said "but... you ask for it!"

pretre wrote:
- Read 'Age of Darkness'. Codex was written before the Heresy was over.
- Umm, yeah.
- The whole point of the primarchs was that they were each individually designed to have different strengths. That's a fundamental part of the universe. Guilliman wasn't out strategied by Horus. He was given a legitimate order, pre-heresy and then was ambushed by an entire legion. That's a bit different than getting outfoxed on the battlefield.
- Luckily, you weren't there.
- Badab War didn't have any Legions go over to chaos. Big difference between Chapters and Legions. If the Badab War had had as many Legions go bad as Chapters actually went bad it would have been a HUGE problem. By chopping everyone up into chapters, Guilliman prevented something on the scale of the Heresy from happening again. It was distasteful, but it worked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To add to Zweischneid's point, they were also the largest Legion at the time of the heresy. This was largely due to some 'recruits' from the missing legions.

1) Ok, my bad. So it was written when the Emperor was still alive - that doesn't change my opinion of it much.
2) So anyways, it would be like Napoleon threatening Sun Tzu with war because Mr. Tzu suggested he take a second look at invading Russia... yeah.
3) Oh? I thought this universe had few fundamental parts and the canon was open to interpretation; at least, that was my impression. And at any rate, that is the definition of strategy - large scale maneuvers off the battlefield. Getting outfoxed on the battlefield is a tactical failure, not a strategic one. BTW why, if Guilliman is strategically inclined, does the Codex Astartes make such tight tactical and individual proscriptions which have little to do with overall strategy?
4) No, but Dorn was and his proposed alternative (along with every other opposing Primarch's) was silenced under threat of civil war.
5) There would inherently be fewer legions than chapters, so the same number of marines would have gone over - there were only 9 legions. And nothing on the scale of the heresy could happen ever again anyways because there's only so many 1/2s in a stagnant number of Marines.

They were the largest legion, yes - I agree. The Ultramarines were a glorious and wonderful legion, despite the best efforts of their mediocre primarch.

Here's the problem I have - nothing Guilliman does during the Great Crusade warrants him being the "BESTEST." He simply is declared the BESTEST PRIMARCH EVAR without explanation.

King Pariah wrote:

Lookit, I can walloftext too!

You missed out where I said I don't hate the UM, I hate Mat Ward

and the rest was sorta joking, you know, after I said "but... you ask for it!"

Yeah, we got all that. We just were attacking your argument and not you.

Unless you're saying your entire point was that you hate Mat Ward for no particular reason, in which case you have far more effectively attacked your argument than we ever could.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quote fail.

Unit1126PLL wrote:3) Oh? I thought this universe had few fundamental parts and the canon was open to interpretation; at least, that was my impression. And at any rate, that is the definition of strategy - large scale maneuvers off the battlefield. Getting outfoxed on the battlefield is a tactical failure, not a strategic one. BTW why, if Guilliman is strategically inclined, does the Codex Astartes make such tight tactical and individual proscriptions which have little to do with overall strategy?

Okay, tactical genius, whatever get all pedantic on me. Same thing. He is the Emperor's gift to skill in directing troops on the battlefield.

4) No, but Dorn was and his proposed alternative (along with every other opposing Primarch's) was silenced under threat of civil war.

What was Dorn's alternative? Go with things as they were? Good thing he didn't get his way.

5) There would inherently be fewer legions than chapters, so the same number of marines would have gone over - there were only 9 legions. And nothing on the scale of the heresy could happen ever again anyways because there's only so many 1/2s in a stagnant number of Marines.

I think you mean 9 chapters. 9000 guys is a great deal less than 90,000 to 9 million (depending on Legion size). 9000 Marines can forseeably be defeated by conventional forces, 90,000 not so much. I don't even know what your last sentence is supposed to mean. Elaborate?

Here's the problem I have - nothing Guilliman does during the Great Crusade warrants him being the "BESTEST." He simply is declared the BESTEST PRIMARCH EVAR without explanation.

Ignoring the silly interweb speak, they say that he is the most influential because his work is what created space marines and chapters as we know them in the year 40k. He and his legion are pretty much what restored order and saved the Imperium after the Heresy, largely due to him getting stuck in the Galactic South and arriving with an intact force.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Here's the problem I have - nothing Guilliman does during the Great Crusade warrants him being the "BESTEST." He simply is declared the BESTEST PRIMARCH EVAR without explanation.

Because that's how they started the thing. They didn't flesh out the Great Crusade. They didn't even flesh out the Heresy at the start. They just assigned easily recognizable traits and clichees to the progenitors and went with it. Russ was the "wolfiest" just because. No reason given why he wasn't into cats. Fulgrim was the pretty perfectionist.. just because. Alpharius the sneaky one just because (and to show off to the readers that he was such an "unconventional" guy, they made him squabble with Guilliman who represented "conventional" in the setting.. tricky literary tools they employed there. Dorn was the gruffy "blue-collar" guy who spoke his mind.. just because. Raven Guard were good at special ops.. just because. No reason given for any of them. And one was the bestest, because one's gotta have the bestest. Just like Vect is the most devious of Dark Eldar. Got to be one. And Ghaz is the meanest of Ork Warlords. Got to be one who gets the title. And Eldrad is the wisest of Farseers. Someone's gotta be it.

Just the way the basic principles were designed.

Bleh, I don't want to go point-for-point anymore, but my argument can be summed up thusly:

Premises:
1) Each primarch had a strength in a specific field of war.
2) Guilliman's was either a)tactics or b) strategy.
3) The Codex Astartes includes passages on sieges, special operations, how assault troops are to be used, what sort of equipment a chapter must have, how to organize one's chapter, et cetera.
4) Guilliman wrote the entire codex.
5) The codex, per premise 3, includes things that are not premise 2.

Conclusion:
Guilliman was telling other primarchs how to do their jobs, and threatened them with civil war when they said he was wrong.

Look at it this way:
1) I'm a nuclear engineer, and you're a mechanical engineer.
2) I write a book called the BIG BOOK OF ENGINEERING which is going to govern everything about engineering ever.
3) You notice some pretty bad flaws in the Mechanical Engineering section.
4) Knowing that I'm a nuclear engineer, you respectfully come to me saying "Your mechanical engineering section is flawed in these ways..."
5) Rather than amending the document, I threaten to murder you and your children if you do not comply with my BIG BOOK OF ENGINEERING.
6) What little amount you deviate from the proscribed method of Mechanical Engineering makes you aberrant and gets the FBI to scrutinize you.

You're ascribing WAAAY too much in your 'example' to what happened.

- Guilliman is a strategic/tactical/organizational genius. Whatever you want to call it.
- He wrote a brilliant book called the Codex Astartes that reorganized the Legions. It is basically the modern Art of War.
- As part of his plan to keep the Imperium in one piece, he wanted the legions split up into chapters to limit their power.
- He had the biggest army around and knew that he could enforce his edict in order to save the Imperium.

None of this 'murder you and your children' garbage.

pretre wrote:You're ascribing WAAAY too much in your 'example' to what happened.

Guilliman is a strategic/tactical/organizational genius. Whatever you want to call it.
He wrote a brilliant book called the Codex Astartes that reorganized the Legions.
As part of his plan to keep the Imperium in one piece, he wanted the legions split up into chapters to limit their power.
He had the biggest army around and knew that he could enforce his edict in order to save the Imperium.

None of this 'murder you and your children' garbage.

The Codex Astartes did more than reorganize the legions. It also gave very specific proscriptions about the conduct of war in fields in which Guilliman was not specialized, such as assault marines and special operations.

And isn't threatening Dorn and his Legion with a superior number of well-trained and equipped soldiers very similar to me threatening you and your genetic progeny (children, if you will) with war because you disagreed?

Also, check your references:

C:SM:

The Codex Astartes
With the threat of extinction held at bay, Guilliman turned
to ensuring that such a catastrophe could never happen
again, distilling his formidable wisdom into a mighty tome
known as the Codex Astartes. This sacred text became the
cornerstone upon which the future of the Imperium would
be based.
For all its multitudinous topics, the most lasting and
contentious decree of the Codex Astartes was that the
existing Space Marine Legions be broken up into smaller
organisations known as Chapters. Though many of his
brother Primarchs initially railed against Guilliman's decree,
almost all eventually accepted the necessity of the Codex.
Thus were the Space Marine Chapters of the Adeptus
Astartes born.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Unit1126PLL wrote:The Codex Astartes did more than reorganize the legions. It also gave very specific proscriptions about the conduct of war in fields in which Guilliman was not specialized, such as assault marines and special operations.

And isn't threatening Dorn and his Legion with a superior number of well-trained and equipped soldiers very similar to me threatening you and your genetic progeny (children, if you will) with war because you disagreed?

Yeah, it also gave methods for training and detecting genetic deviancy, something very important in this situation.

In the end, everyone agreed that Guilliman was right. See my quote. Your whole 'threatening with death and dismemberment' crud is just blurring the point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Codex: Angels of Death, 2nd edition

The Horus Heresy revealed weaknesses in the gene-seed of
several of the early Space Marine Legions, which had been
exacerbated by the need to keep the huge Space Marine
Legions up to strength in the terrible wars being fought at the
time. The powers of Chaos had been able to use the resulting
corruption to turn Horus and many of the Space Marines
under his command against the Emperor. Once Horus had
been defeated it was decided to reorganise the structure of the
forces in the Imperium so that a similar catastrophe could not
happen again in the future.
This work was undertaken almost single-handedly by the
Primarch of the Ultramarines, Roboute Guillirnan, whose
hugely influential work the Codex Astartes laid down the
basic organisation and tactics of the new Space Marine
Chapters. The Codex Astartes decreed that the old Legions be
broken up and reorganised into smaller fighting forces which
would be less of a threat to the Imperium if they became
corrupted.