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pretre wrote:Also, check your references:

C:SM:

The Codex Astartes
With the threat of extinction held at bay, Guilliman turned
to ensuring that such a catastrophe could never happen
again, distilling his formidable wisdom into a mighty tome
known as the Codex Astartes. This sacred text became the
cornerstone upon which the future of the Imperium would
be based.
For all its multitudinous topics, the most lasting and
contentious decree of the Codex Astartes was that the
existing Space Marine Legions be broken up into smaller
organisations known as Chapters. Though many of his
brother Primarchs initially railed against Guilliman's decree,
almost all eventually accepted the necessity of the Codex.
Thus were the Space Marine Chapters of the Adeptus
Astartes born.

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Unit1126PLL wrote:The Codex Astartes did more than reorganize the legions. It also gave very specific proscriptions about the conduct of war in fields in which Guilliman was not specialized, such as assault marines and special operations.

And isn't threatening Dorn and his Legion with a superior number of well-trained and equipped soldiers very similar to me threatening you and your genetic progeny (children, if you will) with war because you disagreed?

Yeah, it also gave methods for training and detecting genetic deviancy, something very important in this situation.

In the end, everyone agreed that Guilliman was right. See my quote. Your whole 'threatening with death and dismemberment' crud is just blurring the point.

Not everyone agreed. The Black Templars, Iron Hands, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels among others would like a word with you.

EDIT: And I don't know what you mean by blurring the point, but I'm saying that one of the reasons I despise Guilliman is that he tried to enforce his oh-so-great Codex with the use of force rather than reason.

Blood Angels and Dark Angels accepted the Codex Astartes.


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Also, not sure that HE forced it on anyone. The High Lords wanted him to come in. He was just the only one who could do it.


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That's from Index Astartes, btw.

Where's the 'Guilliman forced me to do it' from?

Here's another one which listed the SW splitting and all the legions not thinking it was a big deal. Also, has BA and DA largely following the Codex. Again, IA.

I like the Ultras in isolation.

I buy and enjoy McNeill's UM series of books, I like the theme of the Ultra Marines, I easily rooted for them against the Necrons in Fall of Damnos.

However, in the context of the setting at large, I get pretty sick of them. I want to hear more about the Salamanders, or the Imperial Fists. They have some really great potential that goes unused. Same for the White Scars, or the Iron Hands. I want these other chapters to be more than the Sunstreaker or Wheeljack to Optimus Ultramarine. I don't want them to sit there perpetually like some seldom-seen Ram-man or worse, Orko to the Ulramarines He-man. 40k doesn't need a buch of snow-jobs and Shipwrecks to make sure the Dukes and Beachheads of G.I. Ultramar look good. (Though, I suppose the Salamanders could pass as Barbeque. Hell, I'd even take that, at least he was a regular, instead of being not present or killed off all the time.)

The setting is too good with too much potential to spend SO much time on what is ultimately a relatively small part of it.

So no, I don't hate the Ultramarines. But I do get annoyed with the Ultramar-centric tendancies that are sometimes apparent.

pretre wrote:Blood Angels and Dark Angels accepted the Codex Astartes.


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Also, not sure that HE forced it on anyone. The High Lords wanted him to come in. He was just the only one who could do it.


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That's from Index Astartes, btw.

Where's the 'Guilliman forced me to do it' from?

Here's another one which listed the SW splitting and all the legions not thinking it was a big deal. Also, has BA and DA largely following the Codex. Again, IA.

In the Index Astartes under Black Templars / Origins, it talks about the standoff between Dorn and Guilliman.

"The Imperial Fists began to be violently persecuted for their supposed heresies."
It got to the point that an Imperial Fists strike cruiser (Terrible Angel) was fired upon by the Imperial Navy - that's force if I've ever heard it. Only the imminent destruction of the Imperial Fists by the Iron Warriors saved the day and allowed Guilliman's codex to pass.

Leman Russ and Vulkan with Dorn against Guilliman, Ferrus Manus, and Corax.

Wow. That was a lot of 80's references to cram into one paragraph.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

EDIT: And I don't know what you mean by blurring the point, but I'm saying that one of the reasons I despise Guilliman is that he tried to enforce his oh-so-great Codex with the use of force rather than reason.

That is precisely not what happended. There were disagreements, as was to be expected. But all Codex-chapters (including IF, DA, BA) accepted the Codex out of their own will, seeing the wisdom in it. Even Dorn, though reluctant or perhaps because of it, became one of the most vocal champions of the Codex.

Also, even though Guilliman "wrote" (perhaps edited) the Codex Astartes, it doesn't mean he rejected the wisdom of those more specialized in certain field. Index Astartes II p. 14 in the chapter on the Imperial Fist notes specifically that the parts of the Codex written on Siegecraft came from Perturabo and Dorn. On the same page, it says that Dorn came around to see the wisdom of the Codex not through force, or reason, but by having a vision of the Emperor himself.

Zweischneid wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

EDIT: And I don't know what you mean by blurring the point, but I'm saying that one of the reasons I despise Guilliman is that he tried to enforce his oh-so-great Codex with the use of force rather than reason.

That is precisely not what happended. There were disagreements, as was to be expected. But all Codex-chapters (including IF, DA, BA) accepted the Codex out of their own will, seeing the wisdom in it. Even Dorn, though reluctant or perhaps because of it, became one of the most vocal champions of the Codex.

Also, even though Guilliman "wrote" (perhaps edited) the Codex Astartes, it doesn't mean he rejected the wisdom of those more specialized in certain field. Index Astartes II p. 14 in the chapter on the Imperial Fist notes specifically that the parts of the Codex written on Siegecraft came from Perturabo and Dorn. On the same page, it says that Dorn came around to see the wisdom of the Codex not through force, or reason, but by having a vision of the Emperor himself.

Except it is precisely what happened.

Before I start, yes it is fortunate that everyone came around. A second civil war would have been gakky.

But I would like to note that, before they came around, Guilliman was prepared to use force (persecuting the Imperial Fists, firing on IF Strike Cruisers, etc) to enforce the teachings of the Codex. In the IA entry, it implies that the Imperium was on the cusp of a second civil war is how bad it got before it got better.

That's no way to treat your brothers or your equals - you do not persecute them for holding different views, and you certainly do not tear your nation apart over the disagreements.

Again, thankfully in 40k there are miracles to avert the war, but still, it was dumb.

EDIT:
"as the newly-formed Chapters and the old Legions were preparing for battle, Dorn relented." Page 44, Index Astartes II.

It seems to me that Dorn was the real man, not willing to come to blows over the Codex. But Guilliman was going to enforce its teachings by the bolter if he must.

Are people so butt hurt that their favorites don't get as much fluff support?

Well.. YES! Absolutely. I didn't get into 40k because of Ultramarines. They aren't what made me want to paint and play. I naturally want to delve into the the fluff of the armies I'm most attached and drawn to, and Ultramarines just isn't one of them. *shrugs*

It's pretty easy to feel as though other armies actually get neglected in favour of Ultramarines. I just wish it were more equal.

Unit1126PLL wrote:


Except it is precisely what happened.

Before I start, yes it is fortunate that everyone came around. A second civil war would have been gakky.

But I would like to note that, before they came around, Guilliman was prepared to use force (persecuting the Imperial Fists, firing on IF Strike Cruisers, etc) to enforce the teachings of the Codex. In the IA entry, it implies that the Imperium was on the cusp of a second civil war is how bad it got before it got better.

But the Index Astartes notes explicitly that Dorn was "blinded" by revenge and an inability to recognize the changing times. It may be simplistic writing, but Guilliman only "threatened" enough to make Dorn realize the error of his ways.

Index Astartes II wrote:
Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times. He could not see why humanity would not trust the Imperial Fist because of what the Traitor Legiosn had done. Without the fire of battle to engage them, Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists hovered on the brink - the Emperor was gone and now it seemed that their very brotherhood was to be sundered. At this time of uncertainty, the Iron Warriors issued a clear challenge to the Imperial Fist by building a formidable fortress and daring them to attack.

Imperial Fist Chaplains teach that Dorn found strenght in meditation. For seven days he resisted the pain glove until at last he was gifted with a vision of the Emperor. The Imperial Fist had wavered in their faith, thinking the Emperor gone [...] The Imperial Fist could no longer serve the Emperor that had been but they knew they must still be true to the Emperor that was. Rogal Dorn decreed that the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove as a Legion and emerge redeemed as a Chapter. Dorn knew that many of his Battle Brothers did not wish to found new Chatpters as the Ultramarines were eager to do. [...] Leaving Phalax, he led these die-hards against the Iron Warriors in their lair.

His doubts gone, Dorn focused on the enemy ahead. Perturabo was a master of fortification whose writings had been retained by Guilliman in his Codex.

He furthermore explicitly rejected the help of the Ultramarines as he knew he must kill of the "doubting" parts of his own Legion. Compared to Dorn's own actions in "enforcing" the Codex, Guillimans are more than tame. If you oppose to enforcing the Codex by force, you should hate Dorn, not Guilliman.

IA 1


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Damn, ninja'd by Z.

Zweischneid wrote:
But the Index Astartes notes explicitly that Dorn was "blinded" by revenge and an inability to recognize the changing times. It may be simplistic writing, but Guilliman only "threatened" enough to make Dorn realize the error of his ways.

Index Astartes II wrote:
Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times. He could not see why humanity would not trust the Imperial Fist because of what the Traitor Legiosn had done. Without the fire of battle to engage them, Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists hovered on the brink - the Emperor was gone and now it seemed that their very brotherhood was to be sundered. At this time of uncertainty, the Iron Warriors issued a clear challenge to the Imperial Fist by building a formidable fortress and daring them to attack.

Imperial Fist Chaplains teach that Dorn found strenght in meditation. For seven days he resisted the pain glove until at last he was gifted with a vision of the Emperor. The Imperial Fist had wavered in their faith, thinking the Emperor gone [...] The Imperial Fist could no longer serve the Emperor that had been but they knew they must still be true to the Emperor that was. Rogal Dorn decreed that the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove as a Legion and emerge redeemed as a Chapter. Dorn knew that many of his Battle Brothers did not wish to found new Chatpters as the Ultramarines were eager to do. [...] Leaving Phalax, he led these die-hards against the Iron Warriors in their lair.

His doubts gone, Dorn focused on the enemy ahead. Perturabo was a master of fortification whose writings had been retained by Guilliman in his Codex.

I am inclined to agree with you, but Guilliman's behavior still grates on me. Dorn was wrong and admitted as such to avoid civil war, good on him. But seriously, firing on IF ships? Arming your troops for war against the Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, and Salamanders legions? That's way to much force for simply knocking some sense into one guy who was REALLY ANGRY (but not Angron angry).

EDIT:
Lemme put it this way for both of you:

I like the Ultramarines chapter. I hate Guilliman. I believe that the Codex Astartes contains many errors and is not infallible. Guilliman seems to believe that this isn't the case, however, and was at the point of arming his troops for civil war before the better man relented. That is all.

Unit1126PLL wrote:I am inclined to agree with you, but Guilliman's behavior still grates on me. Dorn was wrong and admitted as such to avoid civil war, good on him. But seriously, firing on IF ships? Arming your troops for war against the Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, and Salamanders legions? That's way to much force for simply knocking some sense into one guy who was REALLY ANGRY (but not Angron angry).

They had just gotten through a war that tore apart the entire universe. A little caution might be in order when 'absent' legions return a little late to the fight and you don't know who's side they were late in arriving to.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

I am inclined to agree with you, but Guilliman's behavior still grates on me. Dorn was wrong and admitted as such to avoid civil war, good on him. But seriously, firing on IF ships? Arming your troops for war against the Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, and Salamanders legions? That's way to much force for simply knocking some sense into one guy who was REALLY ANGRY (but not Angron angry).

Dorn killed literally thousands of his own Legion to enforce the Codex. And Guilliman firing a few warning shots to get a Primarch renowned for his stubbornness to notice grates with you?

Zweischneid wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

I am inclined to agree with you, but Guilliman's behavior still grates on me. Dorn was wrong and admitted as such to avoid civil war, good on him. But seriously, firing on IF ships? Arming your troops for war against the Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, and Salamanders legions? That's way to much force for simply knocking some sense into one guy who was REALLY ANGRY (but not Angron angry).

Dorn killed literally thousands of his own Legion to enforce the Codex. And Guilliman firing a few warning shots to get a Primarch renowned for his stubbornness to notice grates with you?

Yes. I don't much like Dorn either TBQH - pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus were my guys.

EDIT: Also I would hardly call "violent persecution" warning shots.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Yes. I don't much like Dorn either TBQH - pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus were my guys.

EDIT: Also I would hardly call "violent persecution" warning shots.

But "pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus" had the advantage of being largely "fluff-less" for the first 20years of 40K history, being specced out now with some "professionalism". The Guilliman, Russ, Dorn, etc.. stuff was largly drafted by a handfull of amateurs in the 1980s eager to get something, anything off the ground to attach to their budding miniature business. And now they are stuck with some of those early choices. Not really on equal ground there.

Zweischneid wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Yes. I don't much like Dorn either TBQH - pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus were my guys.

EDIT: Also I would hardly call "violent persecution" warning shots.

But "pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus" had the advantage of being largely "fluff-less" for the first 20years of 40K history, being specced out now with some "professionalism". The Guilliman, Russ, Dorn, etc.. stuff was largly drafted by a handfull of amateurs in the 1980s eager to get something, anything off the ground to attach to their budding miniature business. And now they are stuck with some of those early choices. Not really on equal ground there.

I'm sorry, my friend. I don't know what to tell you. No, it isn't equal ground. And that's unfortunate. But that isn't going to make me suddenly decide to like Guilliman because it's "fair."

I just don't like him - he grates on me. Even if it is because of poor 1980's era writing - for whatever reason the character just grinds my gears. Hell, it could be because I was molested by a man dressed as an Ultramarine, but whatever reason, just - ugh.

Just wait till 6th comes out!

Then all the UM fainbois are going ram it up the Dark Angels' recycler units so hard they won't know what hit them.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Yes. I don't much like Dorn either TBQH - pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus were my guys.

EDIT: Also I would hardly call "violent persecution" warning shots.

But "pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus" had the advantage of being largely "fluff-less" for the first 20years of 40K history, being specced out now with some "professionalism". The Guilliman, Russ, Dorn, etc.. stuff was largly drafted by a handfull of amateurs in the 1980s eager to get something, anything off the ground to attach to their budding miniature business. And now they are stuck with some of those early choices. Not really on equal ground there.

I'm sorry, my friend. I don't know what to tell you. No, it isn't equal ground. And that's unfortunate. But that isn't going to make me suddenly decide to like Guilliman because it's "fair."

I just don't like him - he grates on me. Even if it is because of poor 1980's era writing - for whatever reason the character just grinds my gears. Hell, it could be because I was molested by a man dressed as an Ultramarine, but whatever reason, just - ugh.

Fair enough. I cannot tell you to not hate something if it make your hairs stand for no good reason. But the "character" of Guilliman wasn't designed to aggravate you or other Chapters. Infact, the very "trick" of inventing the "fluff-multiplier" of the Codex Astartes was what allowed the early game to spawn so many different chapters that are now popular among fans everywhere.

Look at other games like Warmachine or whatever. There isn't "1000 factions" just like Khador that you can fill with your own fluff and "make your own", some of which might become cherished parts of the setting in 20-years time. There is only Khador. 40K could have gone the same way. They didn't. They pulled this little trick of "we present you with one "iconic" chapter, but we also include a little background trick to enable and "legitimately" use that one chapter as a template for your own. Infact, we say our universe has 1000 of them and even give a few basic ideas for possible alternatives...

Lo and behold, 25 or so years later, you have fleshed out background for things like IF, Ravenguard, etc.. that dwarfs the amount of background other factions in other wargames get many times over.

In short, if it weren't for the "character" of Guilliman and the background idea of the Codex Astartes, the "Space Marine" part of the 40K universe as we know it today wouldn't exist. Imperial Fist wouldn't exist as a "legitimate faction" just like "yellow Khador" doesn't exist in Warmachine. It would just be a different paint-job in violation of the official fluff.

Zweischneid wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Yes. I don't much like Dorn either TBQH - pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus were my guys.

EDIT: Also I would hardly call "violent persecution" warning shots.

But "pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus" had the advantage of being largely "fluff-less" for the first 20years of 40K history, being specced out now with some "professionalism". The Guilliman, Russ, Dorn, etc.. stuff was largly drafted by a handfull of amateurs in the 1980s eager to get something, anything off the ground to attach to their budding miniature business. And now they are stuck with some of those early choices. Not really on equal ground there.

I'm sorry, my friend. I don't know what to tell you. No, it isn't equal ground. And that's unfortunate. But that isn't going to make me suddenly decide to like Guilliman because it's "fair."

I just don't like him - he grates on me. Even if it is because of poor 1980's era writing - for whatever reason the character just grinds my gears. Hell, it could be because I was molested by a man dressed as an Ultramarine, but whatever reason, just - ugh.

Fair enough. I cannot tell you to not hate something if it make your hairs stand for no good reason. But the "character" of Guilliman wasn't designed to aggravate you or other Chapters. Infact, the very "trick" of inventing the "fluff-multiplier" of the Codex Astartes was what allowed the early game to spawn so many different chapters that are now popular among fans everywhere.

Look at other games like Warmachine or whatever. There isn't "1000 factions" just like Khador that you can fill with your own fluff and "make your own", some of which might become cherished parts of the setting in 20-years time. There is only Khador. 40K could have gone the same way. They didn't. They pulled this little trick of "we present you with one "iconic" chapter, but we also include a little background trick to enable and "legitimately" use that one chapter as a template for your own. Infact, we say our universe has 1000 of them and even give a few basic ideas for possible alternatives...

Lo and behold, 25 or so years later, you have fleshed out background for things like IF, Ravenguard, etc.. that dwarfs the amount of background other factions in other wargames get many times over.

In short, if it weren't for the "character" of Guilliman and the background idea of the Codex Astartes, the "Space Marine" part of the 40K universe as we know it today would exist.

Oh, I know. I do appreciate what the writers did and love that about the universe. But that doesn't mean I have to like the characters.

After all, I like the story of Superman and his love interest. That doesn't mean I have to like Lois Lane as a person.

Most of us don't have any problem with the idea of the Ultramarines in general, it's GW's insistence on shoving them down our collective throats as the 'perfect Chapter' that everyone else looks up to, regardless of whether we do or not.

During the heresy the ultramarines were seen as the biggest threat due to the fact that they outnumbered the luna wolves almost 3:1.

Afterwards I would assume that with having an almost intact nearly 3mil strong legion helped to enforce his do it my way or else theory.

Nom

As a fan who doesn't even care about SMs in general, I can tell you it's not that hard to see why people hate Ultramarines.
We're constantly inundated with a barrage of "Ultramarines are the greatest chapter ever!!!" Which would be fine if their impressiveness was outlined in any way.

For other chapters, victory is very hard fought. For Ultramarines, they win either miraculously with pure luck, or they win just because, with no explanation given other than they are Ultramarines. In either case, they reach victory with very little effort, no matter the odds... This is a writing atrocity.

Any schoolboy writer knows that a hero has to be flawed to be interesting. From Superman to Riddick, all heroes have weaknesses. Problems that keep you wondering how they'll pull through. A hero who effortlessly overcomes literally every obstacle becomes hideously bland and impossible to identify with. Inevitably the reader begins hoping to see that hero die or become horribly humiliated, (Tell me I'm not the only one who wanted to see Wile E. Coyote tear that damn roadrunner to shreds) only to be disappointed at every turn as the same predictable outcome prevails... The Fall of Damnos almost pulled it off in the 5th ed rulebook, but that was quickly turned around when the book was written with the Ultramarines winning, to the disappointment of 40k fans everywhere.

If GW wants us to accept them as an amazing chapter, they're going to have to give us a few reasons why. If Ultramarines suffered some brutally crushing defeats I honestly think they would be much more admirable.

Right now we're basically told that we're supposed to love them. Some of us blindly do so. The rest of us stand around wondering why.

Archonate wrote:As a fan who doesn't even care about SMs in general, I can tell you it's not that hard to see why people hate Ultramarines.
We're constantly inundated with a barrage of "Ultramarines are the greatest chapter ever!!!" Which would be fine if their impressiveness was outlined in any way.

For other chapters, victory is very hard fought. For Ultramarines, they win either miraculously with pure luck, or they win just because, with no explanation given other than they are Ultramarines. In either case, they reach victory with very little effort, no matter the odds... This is a writing atrocity.

Any schoolboy writer knows that a hero has to be flawed to be interesting. From Superman to Riddick, all heroes have weaknesses. Problems that keep you wondering how they'll pull through. A hero who effortlessly overcomes literally every obstacle becomes hideously bland and impossible to identify with. Inevitably the reader begins hoping to see that hero die or become horribly humiliated, (Tell me I'm not the only one who wanted to see Wile E. Coyote tear that damn roadrunner to shreds) only to be disappointed at every turn as the same predictable outcome prevails... The Fall of Damnos almost pulled it off in the 5th ed rulebook, but that was quickly turned around when the book was written with the Ultramarines winning, to the disappointment of 40k fans everywhere.

If GW wants us to accept them as an amazing chapter, they're going to have to give us a few reasons why. If Ultramarines suffered some brutally crushing defeats I honestly think they would be much more admirable.

Right now we're basically told that we're supposed to love them. Some of us blindly do so. The rest of us stand around wondering why.

As a non-UM fan, I still feel the need to point out that the Ultramarines were humiliated by Horus "Hey guys, look over there! LOL HERESY" & the 'Nids nomming almost everything on their planet.

But yes, in recent canon, they are bland and overpowered. Ward repeatedly emphasising that his chapter is the best chapter is guaranteed to annoy people, plus telling us all that any Astartes chapter who aren't following and being pandering fanboys to Guilleman are doing it wrong.

Archonate wrote:As a fan who doesn't even care about SMs in general, I can tell you it's not that hard to see why people hate Ultramarines.
We're constantly inundated with a barrage of "Ultramarines are the greatest chapter ever!!!" Which would be fine if their impressiveness was outlined in any way.

For other chapters, victory is very hard fought. For Ultramarines, they win either miraculously with pure luck, or they win just because, with no explanation given other than they are Ultramarines. In either case, they reach victory with very little effort, no matter the odds... This is a writing atrocity.

Any schoolboy writer knows that a hero has to be flawed to be interesting. From Superman to Riddick, all heroes have weaknesses. Problems that keep you wondering how they'll pull through. A hero who effortlessly overcomes literally every obstacle becomes hideously bland and impossible to identify with. Inevitably the reader begins hoping to see that hero die or become horribly humiliated, (Tell me I'm not the only one who wanted to see Wile E. Coyote tear that damn roadrunner to shreds) only to be disappointed at every turn as the same predictable outcome prevails... The Fall of Damnos almost pulled it off in the 5th ed rulebook, but that was quickly turned around when the book was written with the Ultramarines winning, to the disappointment of 40k fans everywhere.

If GW wants us to accept them as an amazing chapter, they're going to have to give us a few reasons why. If Ultramarines suffered some brutally crushing defeats I honestly think they would be much more admirable.

Right now we're basically told that we're supposed to love them. Some of us blindly do so. The rest of us stand around wondering why.

I'd like to point you to the big wall of text left by King Pariah, who essentially compiled a list of "every other chapter's more impressive victories against even more impressive odds with even less resources and even more tactical brilliance or determination or whatever" than those won by the Ultramarines. This thread is an exercise in schizophrenia. Half the people hate Ultramarines because "they are too awsome". The other half hates Ultramarines because "they are not awsome enough and all the others smack the Heretics and Xenos even 'arder". What's it gonna be?

Coming from an IG player in my mind the ultramarines seem kinda stuck up in anysince , " ohh we get anything we want when we want with no hard ship ohhh ! "

I don't mind them too much. It's pretty annoying they seem to always be the only choice in the single player video games that have been made.

Zweischneid wrote:I'd like to point you to the big wall of text left by King Pariah, who essentially compiled a list of "every other chapter's more impressive victories against even more impressive odds with even less resources and even more tactical brilliance or determination or whatever" than those won by the Ultramarines. This thread is an exercise in schizophrenia. Half the people hate Ultramarines because "they are too awsome". The other half hates Ultramarines because "they are not awsome enough and all the others smack the Heretics and Xenos even 'arder". What's it gonna be?

You either didn't read my post or you're just trying to twist what I said.
I'm saying that the reason they are so bland and 'not awesome enough' is because they are 'too awesome'... Or rather, they are perfect to the point of bland and boring. (Roadrunner) Then I mentioned that their perfection is never really given justification beyond "just because."

What the wall of text said, in a nutshell, is that other chapters have more personality and examples of hard-earned 'awesomeness' were given. Which illustrates my point wonderfully.

In the DE Codex, the Salamanders get pulled in to Commorragh and have the gak kicked out of them for days before they finally manage to hobble away. A convincing and impressive outcome. Admirable that they even survived to escape at all...

Now I ask, what if they had been Ultramarines? I bet most people in this thread trying to communicate with you would unanimously agree on the answer to that question. The outcome would have the appearance of awesomeness, while being completely unjustifiable. Which, as everybody has been saying, bounces back to a horrible writer with the awesomeness-moderation level of an ambitious 2nd grader.
"My good guys are WAY better than everybody else's good guys!"
"Oh? Why is that?"
"... They just ARE!"

Archonate wrote:
You either didn't read my post or you're just trying to twist what I said.
I'm saying that the reason they are so bland and 'not awesome enough' is because they are 'too awesome'... Or rather, they are perfect to the point of bland and boring. (Roadrunner) Then I mentioned that their perfection is never really given justification beyond "just because."

What the wall of text said, in a nutshell, is that other chapters have more personality and examples of hard-earned 'awesomeness' were given. Which illustrates my point wonderfully.

In the DE Codex, the Salamanders get pulled in to Commorragh and have the gak kicked out of them for days before they finally manage to hobble away. A convincing and impressive outcome. Admirable that they even survived to escape at all...

Now I ask, what if they had been Ultramarines? I bet most people in this thread trying to communicate with you would unanimously agree on the answer to that question. The outcome would have the appearance of awesomeness, while being completely unjustifiable. Which, as everybody has been saying, bounces back to a horrible writer with the awesomeness-moderation level of an ambitious 2nd grader.
"My good guys are WAY better than everybody else's good guys!"
"Oh? Why is that?"
"... They just ARE!"

Well, there is two sides to that. For one, the "must loose" stuff to have credible victory. I don't really see how this is less a feature of the Ultramarines than any other Chapter. Show me one, just one battle described in the Space Marine Codex with Ultramarines of about equal length in text to the Salamander example you so admire, where UMs take less casualties, or less painfull casualities than the Salamanders did in that example? It isn't there. Battle for Maccragge.. full 1st company wiped out and most of the rest. The infamous, much maligned Eldar Battle at the Sepulchre, again, including Calgar having to be carried off the Battle-field a near corpse.

Actually, I find it quite comical that in the 40K universe all battles are always close fought. Doesn't make much sense actually. If you ask me, the setting would be far more credible if there were, at least occasionally, some battles that are not "closely" fought be actually won/lost by a fair margin. I guess on just needs to chalk that down to the "heroic" nature of the setting. But all those "closely" fought battles of Salamanders and Co. (and Ultramarines) strain believability more than actual military superiority in one case or another would.

For the second, and for the Ultramarines lacking "distinquishing" features. Well, I agree. That is their role. There can be no deviation from the standard in a fictional setting if there wouldn't be a standard first.

Have a look at Dan Abnetts reasoning for chosing Ultramarines in the maligned 40K movie (its in the first 2 minutes.. no need to watch the whole thing).

Ultramarines are uniquely identified by being iconically and undiluted Space Marines. THAT is their distinguishing mark.

Without them, you could not have an exception to the rule. There can be no "Space Marines but also Vikings" or "Space Marines but also terribly flawed" or "Space Marines but also breath fire" or "Space Marines but also fallen to Chaos" if you don't introduce "Space Marines" first. And the vehicle GW uses to do that is Ultramarines. All those cherished "special snowflake" traits you cherish so much in all the other Marines are only "special" because you have the Ultramarine-norm (and default-aspiration of all Marines) to deviate from. BL uses them in the same manner. If they want to show the reader how special and "unconventional" Alpharius is, they have him squabble with Guilliman as "representation" of "conventionality". Without Ultramarines or Guilliman as a literary concept, there'd be no Alpha Legion or Alpharius, because they wouldn't have anything to differentiate themselves from. They couldn't be the non-norm without a norm established first. That is the great irony of all people who would "take sides" with chapters that deviate from the norm (which is a ridiculous concept from the start in a fictional setting). Their special snowflake traits wouldn't be special if the weren't defined as "different from the norm" by the means of having the norm established first. If you switch Space Wolves and Ultramarines, it would be the Space Wolves that were seen as lacking "distinquishing features" as people would simply assume Space Vikings as the "norm". Ultramarines would be "distinguished" as "Space Wolves but Romans or but not-Vikings" or something.

Zweischneid wrote:
Ultramarines are uniquely identified by being iconically Space Marines. Without them, you could not have an exception to the rule. There can be no "Space Marines but also Vikings" or "Space Marines but also terribly flawed" or "Space Marines but also breath fire" or "Space Marines but also fallen to Chaos" if you don't introduce "Space Marines" first. And the vehicle GW uses to do that is Ultramarines. All those cherished "special snowflake" traits you cherish so much in all the other Marines are only "special" because you have the Ultramarine-norm (and default-aspiration of all Marines) to deviate from. BL uses them in the same manner. If they want to show the reader how special and "unconventional" Alpharius is, they have him squabble with Guilliman as "representation" of "conventionality". Without Ultramarines or Guilliman as a literary concept, there'd be no Alpha Legion or Alpharius, because they wouldn't have anything to differentiate themselves from. They couldn't be the non-norm without a norm established first. That is the great irony of all people who would "take sides" with chapters that deviate from the norm (which is a ridiculous concept from the start in a fictional setting). Their special snowflake traits wouldn't be special if the weren't defined as "different from the norm" by the means of having the norm established first. If you switch Space Wolves and Ultramarines, it would be the Space Wolves that were seen as lacking "distinquishing features" as people would simply assume Space Vikings as the "norm". Ultramarines would be "distinguished" as "Space Wolves but Romans or but not-Vikings" or something.

See this is all fine. Nobody is bothered by them being iconic and vanilla. There has to be a template. We just don't understand why that template has to be portrayed as superior to all deviations. "Who's better than who?" Should be subjective. Mat Ward shouldn't be trying to tell everybody that UMs are better than everybody else. That should be a matter for the fans to debate.

Central chapter? That's fine.
Iconic? Sure. Somebody has to be.
Vanilla? Absolutely, as you illustrated above.
Better than everybody else? ... Shouldn't we be the judge of that?

Archonate wrote:
[The Ultramarines are]
[the]Central chapter? That's fine.
Iconic? Sure. Somebody has to be.
Vanilla? Absolutely, as you illustrated above.
Better than everybody else? ... Shouldn't we be the judge of that?

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sums up the thread. [/thread]

Nom