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AegisGrimm wrote:

a) You have a finite amount you can drop by. Raising the points costs of strong units instead of dropping them for the troops they've left behind makes more sense.

b) It encourages hoarde-style gaming as the only viable tactic. This is bad, especially for an ancient, dwindling race like the Eldar. Swarms of Guardians pouring across the board wouldn't really work with the fluff.

Those are my thoughts, too. But i always get ignored. Evidently everyone wants Eldar Guardians to be about 5 points, and Jetbikes about 15, before they will think they are viable..

to be fair eldar troop charges just generally suck, I've tried fielding many different types, but they inevitably just are terrible. i am ok with them not losing point costs, but improving them.

guardian vs vanilla dex marine vs ork boy

dex marine 16 points each min squad 5 w/ required sergeant 90 points gets a free flamer and free missle launcher if you take 10 so 170 points gets seargent, a missle launcher and flamer with other upgrade options, 35 points gets a rhino, razerback or drop pod and thanks to combat squad you can still have heavy weapon and flamer in separate units as 2 different troops for taking objectives

normally taken 10 combat squaded with missle and flamer plus a rhino to transport the 4 marines 1 w/flamer and seargent w/ chainsword 210 points

dex marine has +1 BS, +1 WS, +1str +1 toughness, sergeant gets +1 attack over the warlock, and a 3+ save(67% chance save vs most wounds) vs eldar 5+ save (33% chance vs most wounds) special rules ATSKNK, combat squads, combat tactics


guardian 8 points each min squad 10, so 9 with optional warlock 97 points, can take a heavy weapons platform to make comparable to ork with rokkit or marine with missile, eldar missle 20 points, wave serpant costs 90 points, its fast tank skimmer, but costs 90 points with no special wepaon, assuming you want missle launcher you pay 30 points, so 120 point transport

a squad w/ missle platform and transport wave serpant with out weapon on the wave serpant since not taken on trukk or rhino 207 points

special rule fleet... though with str 3 toughness 3 and a low weapon skill you'd really only want to charge gretchin



ork boys 6 points each 10 min, so 9 orks plus nob 64 points, pk and boss poel are pretty much required, so 94 points and you have a power klaw and rerollable leadership, can take 1 wepaon upgrade a big shoota or rokkit launcher for 5-10 points,, get a 35 point trukk if you want

normally taken 10 w/ nob, bp and pk in a paper machete fast trukk 129 points

ork has -1 BS, +1 ws, +1T. nob gets +1 wound, +1 attack and plus 2 for nob, -1 leadership and a 6+ save (lets face ti they might as well not roll it but 17% chance save, special rules mob rule, furious charge and waaagh


imo even the base cost of wave serpents should go down, not to 35 like other armys, but lets take for example a razerback at 35- a tank with heavy weapon options, orks 35 points for a fast transport with options, I'd think for eldar a bti of an adjustment would be in order, 70 points seems reasonable twice the price of most dedicated transports before options to pay for the skimmer part

I think points adjustments all around or buffs to units, I'm all behind the guardians keeping their points if you increased weapon range and better bs, heck why are the dark eldar who are more close combat oriented mostly BS4

People also forget that in the fluff the basic infantry soldier in the Eldar army isn't the Guardian- it's the Dire Avenger. Eldar fielding guardians (either Storm or defender) are like Imperial Guard Whiteshields. Guardians are "Plan-B". Usually reserved for defending Eldar territory, not going on the offensive.

They are even called "Defender" squads. In the fluff, only Ulthwe' fields Guardians in large numbers, and even that's as a last resort because Aspect Warriors are a comparative rarity on their Craftworld.

If, for instance, a Space marine standby is the Tac Squad in a Rhino, the Eldar standby is the Dire Avenger squad in a Wave Serpent.

Tre enough.

The Guardians are basically the National Guard.

Viewed that way, they aren't half bad. These are regular guys who don't train constantly for war, picking up a gun and a support platform in defense of their Craftworld.

I'm glad aegis, an obvious marine player, can tell us that eldar are meant to have less numbers than guard and be less elite than space marines and are fine the way they are. In fact, to fix eldar we should increase their point costs.

Eldar are not broken. They can be damn tough. But they're definitely behind the current armies. A mild point cost, even like 2 points off most models, would go a long way to helping them take more upgrades.

Instead of lowering the cost of models, I would lower the cost of upgrades. If the Wave Serpant was about 70 pts base and we subtracted between 5-10 pts each from the weapon upgrades (At least one of which is mandatory) we should go quite well. In fact, 70pts that INCLUDES a TL Shuricanwould be a great start. Compare to a DE Raider. The Raider at 70 pts gets a Flickerfield (+5 save), AV10, Darklance, Fast, Opentopped (can assault out of it, but easier to destroy) The Wave Serpent gets AV12, Powerfield (meltas don't work) a TL Shurican (S6 AP5 3 shots) Fast and is a tank. Sounds like a good balance to me. More points gets you much better guns.

The Dire Avenger upgrades, drop them to 5-10 pts instead of the 15-20 pt abonimations they are now. Make Bladestorm a normal part of the unit. I might, MIGHT be tempted to give Guardians Stubborn, only because at the point that they are being used, they are defending their craftworld to the end. Make DA the Offensive troop unit, and Guardians the Defensive troop unit. IE DA kill the enemy off of an objective, Guardians camp an objective and are harder to kill off of it. (Maybe add a rule to DA to allow them to move 6" in their Assault phase if they destroy/break a unit with bladestorm, letting them get on an objective. Let Guardians always rally below half and auto rally when broken.)

I'd also give Striking Scorpians Fleet.

I'm glad aegis, an obvious marine player, can tell us that eldar are meant to have less numbers than guard and be less elite than space marines and are fine the way they are. In fact, to fix eldar we should increase their point costs.

Oh, so true, as I put down my half-painted, old-school, Forgeworld- turreted Wave Serpent to post this. I bow to your greatness, as you certainly know me...............

Protip: If you were to delete the worthlessly sarcastic first half of your post, it might actually be considered constructive!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As it is, I wish they would return Shuriken catapults to the way they were before 3rd edition come out in 1998. Even back to the original Rogue Trader rulebook they were essentially "Storm Bolters" before Storm Bolters were invented in the game. Catapults were 24", and Cannons were 40" (at their longest ranges).

I'm not an eldar player, nor have I ever played against them, so I won't be commenting on balance. However it's my opinion (in agreement with what some others have said) that the eldar race lacks a real theme. They appear to be middle of the road on everything. I feel like they need to be taken one of two ways:

1. Synergy. Redesign the codex such that individually eldar units are weak and expensive, but when used in concert they perform much better than the sum of their parts. This sort of thing can be seen in the eldar codex already with things like warlock powers, but I'm suggesting taking it a step further; perhaps by buffing the strength or variety of powers (or adding extra rules, such as an ability to use powers even when normally you couldn't - in combat, etc) but make it so buffs can't be cast on your own unit. This sort of thing forces eldar players to conduct a symphony in their leadership, which to me sounds like the eldar way of thinking - harmony and balance.

2. Keep the expensive models, but give them all sorts of minor upgrades as stock. The advanced eldar warriors should be carrying all sorts of technological bling. Giving their units a combination of infiltration, scouts, furious charge etc (not all of them at once, and not on every unit) so that their marine-cost and comparatively paltry stat line is accounted for by a host of (universal) special rules.

If I'm not mistaken, either method satisfies the fluff. Thoughts?

AegisGrimm wrote:People also forget that in the fluff the basic infantry soldier in the Eldar army isn't the Guardian- it's the Dire Avenger. Eldar fielding guardians (either Storm or defender) are like Imperial Guard Whiteshields. Guardians are "Plan-B". Usually reserved for defending Eldar territory, not going on the offensive.

They are even called "Defender" squads. In the fluff, only Ulthwe' fields Guardians in large numbers, and even that's as a last resort because Aspect Warriors are a comparative rarity on their Craftworld.

If, for instance, a Space marine standby is the Tac Squad in a Rhino, the Eldar standby is the Dire Avenger squad in a Wave Serpent.

OK, I'll compare to dire avenger which is even more pricey

Dire Avenger vs vanilla dex marine vs ork boy

dex marine 16 points each min squad 5 w/ required sergeant 90 points gets a free flamer and free missle launcher if you take 10 so 170 points gets seargent, a missle launcher and flamer with other upgrade options, 35 points gets a rhino, razerback or drop pod and thanks to combat squad you can still have heavy weapon and flamer in separate units as 2 different troops for taking objectives

normally taken 10 combat squaded with missle and flamer plus a rhino to transport the 4 marines 1 w/flamer and seargent w/ chainsword 210 points

dex marine has +1str, +1 toughness, they are however -1 I , and a 3+ save(67% chance save vs most wounds) vs eldar 4+ save (50% chance vs most wounds) special rules ATSKNK, combat squads, combat tactics


Dire Avengers at 12 points each min squad 5, so 5 with exarch upgrade cost 72 ,can take some exarch powers and extra weapons options, wave serpant costs 90 points, its fast tank skimmer, but costs 90 points with no special wepaon, assuming you want missle launcher you pay 30 points, so 120 point transport

a 10 squad with exarch bladestorm and 2 shuriken catapualts the cheapest options and transport wave serpant with out weapon on the wave serpant since not taken on trukk or rhino 242 points

special rule fleet... though I still think with str 3 toughness 3 you'd really only want to charge gretchin



ork boys 6 points each 10 min, so 9 orks plus nob 64 points, pk and boss poel are pretty much required, so 94 points and you have a power klaw and rerollable leadership, can take 1 wepaon upgrade a big shoota or rokkit launcher for 5-10 points,, get a 35 point trukk if you want

normally taken 10 w/ nob, bp and pk in a paper machete fast trukk 129 points

ork has -2 BS, +1T. nob gets +1 wound, +1 attack and plus 2 attacks for nob, -2 leadership and a 6+ save, special rules mob rule, furious charge and waaagh

I really think discounting them or making them a higher toughness would fix it, toughness 4 to represent them as the main soldiers over the guardians as you said and keep a 12 point cost, or drop em to 10 points and they'd be worth it imo

I'd prefer the toughness 4 as when a wave serpant goes often times the squad inside is mostly killed from the explosion if it explodes

dex marine 16 points each min squad 5 w/ required sergeant 90 points gets a free flamer and free missle launcher if you take 10 so 170 points gets seargent, a missle launcher and flamer with other upgrade options, 35 points gets a rhino, razerback or drop pod and thanks to combat squad you can still have heavy weapon and flamer in separate units as 2 different troops for taking objectives

I underlined what's wrong with Eldar if you compare them to Marines. It's not their high cost versus their abilities. It's that other armies with "better" troops get them at a comparatively better cost, or even NO cost! marines will probably get even more cheap (or free) stuff with the next book.

Marines keep getting things to make them "better", but cheaper and at a faster rate than other armies. Even with transports as the case- Rhinos used to be 50pts, and Razorbacks used to be 70pts (where at the same time Wave Serpents were 110pts). No free heavy weapons, no free special weapons.

If Eldar suddenly got free flamers and heavy weapons for their current cost per Guardian, and their transport got dropped by half the price, I bet no one would feel them to be over-costed, either.

I've only been playing warhammer 40k for about a year and 4 months now and I can say the worst thing about the hobby from my perspective is power creep. new dexes are just super powerful, take the new necrons, they made them pretty badass and they of coarse introduced new need to have models to be competitive, I get it, it is a business and you need to make money as a company but its annoying.

then there is space marines where you have a paradox, the most powerful armies are going to be space marines. the reason is they are the most popular army, because they are the most powerful... circular logic, but such is life, I have a marines army but they are to teach people to play with, easy to sue and they have a decent change of winning vs players with xeno armies who haven't played very long.

I don't' want eldar to just get everything free, but i do want them on par with at least the vanilla marines dex, not even asking for cheesy space wolf power lvl, or Grey knights lvl, they are supposed to have the most superior tech, seems like they'd have mastered manufacturing of it as well

Hi guys, as a long term Eldar player, IMO the current Eldar codex does need some tweaking to match the aspects of the army more in line with the newer codexs.

HQs aren't too bad, I think maybe an additional HQ would be good or some more characters. Eldrad is a great character and the phoenix lords are passable. The seer council from craftworld eldar was a great option, whilst expensive if you tool it up, elder are a psychic army so they should be able to field a lot of them.

Elites are very specialised which is both a blessing and a curse. Scorps are good, fleet would make them better. Banshees need to be stronger so that the power weapons can be used better. Dragons are good as they are. I've not used harlequins or wraith guard so can't comment on them.

Troops - moving bikes into troops was a good change. I'm a big fan of dire avengers as I take 40 of them. Guardians might need a bit of tweaking, the black guardians from craftworld Eldar was good as a more reliable core. They could do with a cc based troop choice to balance against the avengers as a more elite troop.

Fast attack - vypers are quite good for what you get, possibly make the squads larger so they have more life expectancy. Spiders are good (new models would be nice). Hawks needs some teeth (or beaks), in my last game mine deep striked in with the purpose of destroying a soulgrinder and couldn't assault so got munched. I've not played with spears so can't really comment on them.

Heavy supports - eldar are quite lucky to have a long list of heavy supports, the only thing that they need to change is to bring back the crystal targeting matrix so that the guardian crewed tanks can hit something. As the new DA have got fighters/bombers Eldar could do with the similar for their list as they share the same heritage.

TBH one of the biggest complaints I have is the lack of grenades army wide... and for the most part this is fine as Eldar generally don't want to assault things however... and this is a big one for me... Eldar have no means other than a warlock to dent a tank in CC.

Having Krak grenades is huge for MEQ armies and they take it for granted because they all have it...

Even having something as small as assault grenades would give at least one attack at str 4 in CC.

As it stands, my DA's have to bail out of their transport and HOPE that someone else gives them a target to shoot at because if they don't have infantry to target they just get to stare at that incredibly cheap box of Marines and wait for them to get out and brush them aside.

Nagashek wrote:Instead of lowering the cost of models, I would lower the cost of upgrades. If the Wave Serpant was about 70 pts base and we subtracted between 5-10 pts each from the weapon upgrades (At least one of which is mandatory) we should go quite well. In fact, 70pts that INCLUDES a TL Shuricanwould be a great start. Compare to a DE Raider. The Raider at 70 pts gets a Flickerfield (+5 save), AV10, Darklance, Fast, Opentopped (can assault out of it, but easier to destroy) The Wave Serpent gets AV12, Powerfield (meltas don't work) a TL Shurican (S6 AP5 3 shots) Fast and is a tank. Sounds like a good balance to me. More points gets you much better guns.

Wave Serpents need to be lower in cost but 70pts is too far. AV12 is HUGE. Vendettas are the closest thing out there but are noteably way to good.

SaganGree wrote:TBH one of the biggest complaints I have is the lack of grenades army wide... and for the most part this is fine as Eldar generally don't want to assault things however... and this is a big one for me... Eldar have no means other than a warlock to dent a tank in CC.

Having Krak grenades is huge for MEQ armies and they take it for granted because they all have it...

Even having something as small as assault grenades would give at least one attack at str 4 in CC.

As it stands, my DA's have to bail out of their transport and HOPE that someone else gives them a target to shoot at because if they don't have infantry to target they just get to stare at that incredibly cheap box of Marines and wait for them to get out and brush them aside.

This is why the codex states that to use Eldar you must use the units in support of each other. Unlike Space Marines or any of the other imperial armies, Eldar do not get general type units except for Swooping Hawks( which can crack armor just fine with their Haywire grenades) . To use eldar you basically have to use two units to do the job a single Space Marine unit could do. That's how Eldar are designed.

However, I agree with you about lack of grenades army wide. It is surprising to me that a unit that you do not want in close combat has plasma grenades (Swooping Hawks), while units you do want in close combat do not have them (Howling Banshee's) I realize it is a left over from 4th edition but they have done a few errata's since then and they should have either given plasma grenades to Howling Banshees or made it so their Banshee Masks work when they charge a unit in cover. As it stands now, they don't.

Exergy wrote:

Nagashek wrote:Instead of lowering the cost of models, I would lower the cost of upgrades. If the Wave Serpant was about 70 pts base and we subtracted between 5-10 pts each from the weapon upgrades (At least one of which is mandatory) we should go quite well. In fact, 70pts that INCLUDES a TL Shuricanwould be a great start. Compare to a DE Raider. The Raider at 70 pts gets a Flickerfield (+5 save), AV10, Darklance, Fast, Opentopped (can assault out of it, but easier to destroy) The Wave Serpent gets AV12, Powerfield (meltas don't work) a TL Shurican (S6 AP5 3 shots) Fast and is a tank. Sounds like a good balance to me. More points gets you much better guns.

Wave Serpents need to be lower in cost but 70pts is too far. AV12 is HUGE. Vendettas are the closest thing out there but are noteably way to good.

How much are Chimeras? How much are Vendettas? The Tau Devilfish is about 80 and is also heavily overcosted with a carrying capacity of 12 models, an 18" range S5 Gun, and no other weapon upgrades available. They have access to a 5+ save with upgrades, but is usually at the 85-90ppm range.

Nagashek wrote:

Exergy wrote:
Wave Serpents need to be lower in cost but 70pts is too far. AV12 is HUGE. Vendettas are the closest thing out there but are noteably way to good.

How much are Chimeras? How much are Vendettas? The Tau Devilfish is about 80 and is also heavily overcosted with a carrying capacity of 12 models, an 18" range S5 Gun, and no other weapon upgrades available. They have access to a 5+ save with upgrades, but is usually at the 85-90ppm range.

Chimeras w/ Heavy Stubber are about half the cost of a WS with a Scatter Laser, but most of its value is in the fact that it has 5 fire points.

As for the Vendetta, it is cheaper than the Wave Serpent with a TL-Brightlance and already has Extra Armor and includes 3 TL-LC and has the option of adding even more anti-infantry firepower if you pay 10 pnts, the vendetta also has more special rules as it can Scout as well as drop its troops via Grave chute whereas the Wave Serpent has the Bow Field.

SaganGree wrote:

Nagashek wrote:

Exergy wrote:
Wave Serpents need to be lower in cost but 70pts is too far. AV12 is HUGE. Vendettas are the closest thing out there but are noteably way to good.

How much are Chimeras? How much are Vendettas? The Tau Devilfish is about 80 and is also heavily overcosted with a carrying capacity of 12 models, an 18" range S5 Gun, and no other weapon upgrades available. They have access to a 5+ save with upgrades, but is usually at the 85-90ppm range.

Chimeras w/ Heavy Stubber are about half the cost of a WS with a Scatter Laser, but most of its value is in the fact that it has 5 fire points.

As for the Vendetta, it is cheaper than the Wave Serpent with a TL-Brightlance and already has Extra Armor and includes 3 TL-LC and has the option of adding even more anti-infantry firepower if you pay 10 pnts, the vendetta also has more special rules as it can Scout as well as drop its troops via Grave chute whereas the Wave Serpent has the Bow Field.

I agree the wave serpant is overcosted. I would also say vendettas are under costed. Vendettas are also fast attack choices so they are limited where as serpants are decidated.
70 points is only slightly more than a raider for something much much better.

I wonder though... would Venoms and to a lesser extent Raiders be as "good" if they were not open topped? Do you think they would sacrifice their open topped vehicles for a closed top (with no Fire points) and AV11?

no way.

Can't assault out of or fire out of a close topped vehicle

Of course, i like ork Trukks, BW too.

I wouldn't mind them having a heavier, closed skimmer as a troop transport (say capacity 20 (or 10 Grotesques ) with the assault ramp rules..

It'd ideally want to be 21 or 22 transport cap (Need that IC for them Grots)

There are two things that make Eldar melee a bad choice; the relative poor performance efficiency of the melee units and the lack of an open-topped or assault ramp vehicle.

It should be noted that due to the relatively low power of the Eldar melee units, a Venom would not be sufficient. At the same time, the presence of Fire Dragons would make open topped perhaps a bit too good.

16 points for a model with PW+pistol may seem like a steal when almost every other codex pay 10 points for a power weapon on a sergeant, a whole unit is less efficient than a single good model hidden among ablative wounds in this regard.