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What does the Eldar codex need to be on par with the Dark Eldar's new codex?

Mod edit

tylker14 wrote:What does the Eldar codex need to be on par with the Dark Eldar's new codex?

in a head to head matchup, nothing. possibly a nerf.

Exergy wrote:

tylker14 wrote:What does the Eldar codex need to be on par with the Dark Eldar's new codex?

in a head to head matchup, nothing. possibly a nerf.

Are you saying that the Eldar codex is more powerful than DE? That's kind of a joke. Drop Eldar point costs, mission accomplished.

Reduce the point costs of many Eldar units and give them the ability to take sergeant with power weapons and/or other upgrades and Eldar will balance nicely with other codecies.

And give Guardians and Storm Guardians some better benifits, maybe better Warlock powers also.

Brother SRM wrote:

Exergy wrote:

tylker14 wrote:What does the Eldar codex need to be on par with the Dark Eldar's new codex?

in a head to head matchup, nothing. possibly a nerf.

Are you saying that the Eldar codex is more powerful than DE? That's kind of a joke. Drop Eldar point costs, mission accomplished.

what I am saying is that when DE are playing Eldar, Eldar are more powerful. After mech IG, eldar are one of the hardest matchups for DE. As a DE player, give me GK any day.

The thing that mainly surprises me about the Eldar, is the cost of everything, especially infantry. Otherwise it's pretty sound tbh.

as an ork player primarily... when I play my eldar I am amazed how many points I pay for things that do not seem that much better (for the points anyway)

At the very least, they need Troops choices that actually function.

Guardians carry a gun they aren't even allowed to shoot in the current game.

Gun they aren't allowed to shoot?

Some Aspects need a buff for a buff. Swooping Hawks, I'm looking at you.

Ovion wrote:Gun they aren't allowed to shoot?

Their Shuriken Catapults only have 12" of range, which is way closer than you want a bunch of GEQ dudes most of the time.

Ovion wrote:Gun they aren't allowed to shoot?

Anything that wants to assault them can cover the 12-18" range in one turn, thus taking them into assault without having been shot.

Anything that wants to shoot at them gets at least 2 turns of shooting before they can be fired upon. This is more than adequate to remove Guardians.

You could make an argument for regular Shurikens to be 18", and Avengers to be 24". That would solve nearly everything about Guardians for me.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ovion wrote:Gun they aren't allowed to shoot?

Anything that wants to assault them can cover the 12-18" range in one turn, thus taking them into assault without having been shot.

Anything that wants to shoot at them gets at least 2 turns of shooting before they can be fired upon. This is more than adequate to remove Guardians.

except for tau, most thigns have a 24" range. Orks have 18" and nids have only 12"
From outside 24" they cannot be shot. Then 6+fleetd6 will move then into within 13-17" and they get shot, then the guardians move up in their next turn 6" and are within 12".
That is one turn of being shot without shooting.

Being able to move and rapid fire has really made shurkien cats subpar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AegisGrimm wrote:You could make an argument for regular Shurikens to be 18", and Avengers to be 24". That would solve nearly everything about Guardians for me.

that would go a long way.

Excuse me, I'm newly back to the fold after a long time away.

Who can move and rapid fire? The breaks the whole innate freaking rule of rapid fire!

Let me guess, though--- some kind of Marines can do it.

Everything can move, then rapidfire 2 shots at 12".
Or stay still and fire 1 at max, or 2 at 12".

Whoops! I forgot about that. For some godawful weird reason I was thinking that Rapid Fire (with a boltgun) gave you one shot on the move at 12", and if you didn't move you got either two shots at 12" or one at 24". Meh, it's been awhile

The problem with dropping points is that:

a) You have a finite amount you can drop by. Raising the points costs of strong units instead of dropping them for the troops they've left behind makes more sense.

b) It encourages hoarde-style gaming as the only viable tactic. This is bad, especially for an ancient, dwindling race like the Eldar. Swarms of Guardians pouring across the board wouldn't really work with the fluff.

Eldar Smack Dark Eldar pretty hard , so if you mean the Eldar codex is worse than the dark eldar codex ur wrong.

Eldar need an assault ramp. We need a transport with more firepower. Scatterlasers should be heavy 6, Eldar Missile Launchers should be heavy 2.

You should be able to bring any aspect as a troop choice if you have an exarch(max of 1 squad per aspect as a troop). So you can only bring like 1 of each type as a troop to fit the eldar theme.

Besides that points need to be lowered....stats need to be buffed....and we also need some form of webway use.

Smitty0305 wrote:Eldar Smack Dark Eldar pretty hard , so if you mean the Eldar codex is worse than the dark eldar codex ur wrong.

The Eldar codex is worse than the Dark Eldar one. That Eldar have a positive matchup in Dark Eldar is irrelevant to where either codex stacks up against the rest of the field.

a) You have a finite amount you can drop by. Raising the points costs of strong units instead of dropping them for the troops they've left behind makes more sense.

b) It encourages hoarde-style gaming as the only viable tactic. This is bad, especially for an ancient, dwindling race like the Eldar. Swarms of Guardians pouring across the board wouldn't really work with the fluff.

Those are my thoughts, too. But i always get ignored. Evidently everyone wants Eldar Guardians to be about 5 points, and Jetbikes about 15, before they will think they are viable..

The Craftworld Eldar need a theme right now and working infantry.

Before, in 2nd edition, the Eldar had the theme of mobility and firepower.

The introduction of Tau has meant the ceding of firepower to the Tau (in theme at least). The Dark Eldar have now taken the theme of mobility as they are even faster and lighter than the Craftworld Eldar. If things are viewed as a spectrum, with CC and firepower at opposite ends we have Tyranids, Orks, Marines, IG, Eldar, and Tau in that order thematically. In other words, right now there doesn't seem to be a clear theme to the Eldar. They are faster than humans but slower than Dark Eldar. They pack more firepower than Tyranids but less than Tau. So what are they meant to be good at exactly?

The other point is the cost inefficiency of their elites. For example, some of the Aspects are not particularly good at anything or require heavy baby sitting to give a on par performance. Banshees are supposed to be CC specialists yet they have trouble against Marines unless a Farseer babysits with Doom (which is a further investment of points). Hawks have weak guns and drop like flies, and using them as a yo-yo grenade is a highly inefficient use of points. Shining Spears are overcosted glass cannons in squad sizes too small to survive.

The problem is "synergy". When used by GW, they seem to mean 1+1 = 1. In other words, more effort just to get equivalent performance. Synergy should mean 1+1 = 3, to justify the additional effort and risk involved in getting disparate parts working together. When there are more possible points of failure, then the rewards should be compensate for that risk.

jetbikes at a few points lower would be fine, I mean DE bikes are 22 each, so 22 is.. ok for Eldar bikes. MAYBE to 18-20, due to a slightly lower statline (but they are scoring.) but meh.

Shining Spears However... I reckon they should be at least 5, if not 10 pts less, 35pts per is excessive for them.

As for guardians, as-is, 5-6pts base each isn't even unreasonable, make the shuricat 18-24" and then 6-7 is likely fine.

I imagine the next codex will fix a lot of these issue though.

They really just need an update. DE is one of the few balanced 5th ed. codex's and isn't overpowered at all.

Ovion wrote:jetbikes at a few points lower would be fine, I mean DE bikes are 22 each, so 22 is.. ok for Eldar bikes. MAYBE to 18-20, due to a slightly lower statline (but they are scoring.) but meh.

Shining Spears However... I reckon they should be at least 5, if not 10 pts less, 35pts per is excessive for them.

As for guardians, as-is, 5-6pts base each isn't even unreasonable, make the shuricat 18-24" and then 6-7 is likely fine.

I imagine the next codex will fix a lot of these issue though.

The statline is slightly inferior, true enough, but don't forget that they can take a warlock with them (always handy) and have 3+ armour. DE bikes are 5+, with no convenient cover-generating, spear-toting (for only 3 pts more ) warlock (though PFP and combat drugs sometimes help).

I'd not be adverse to guardian bikes being 20 pts. Any cheaper seems a bit out.

I know they can take the guardian - but you DO pay for that.
Upgrades are upgrades, and are priced for it. But yes, 20ptsper would be fine, but I personally have no particular issue with 22.

Well, I agree that point costs of several Eldar units is too high. Even though, my experience tells me that Eldar works quite well at lower pt games like 1500, but it doesn't scale up very well when it comes to larger pt levels like 2500. However, today, games are mostly played at larger pt limits.

At least Shining Spears and Guardian Jetbikes aren't 50 and 35 points respectively, with +20pt Wave Serpents like in 3rd edition....

Plus Guardians have a heavy weapon that can be fired on the move. Keep their price, and up the range of each version of the Shuriken catapult (normal, Avenger) by 6". Then they would be quite fine, even with Tau in existence.

Eldar are NOT a swarm army, so they should not be priced as such. And by that same theory, if we are comparing Eldar to marines, all flavors of marines should be more expensive, because they are small elite forces. Even with the normal range, Guardians are perfectly priced if more elite infantry were more expensive. But GW wants marines to be "cooler" and to sell more to make an army, so they undercost them. they always have versus other armies.