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Brother SRM wrote:

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Hmm, wonder if GW would give us a jetbike squad?

This is something I'm actually pretty much expecting. Some kind of 2 wound jetbikes on par with Thunderwolf Cavalry wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I'd like to see it but the MotRW has the only one left :/

DPBellathrom wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Hmm, wonder if GW would give us a jetbike squad?

This is something I'm actually pretty much expecting. Some kind of 2 wound jetbikes on par with Thunderwolf Cavalry wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I'd like to see it but the MotRW has the only one left :/

I've always wondered why the others just didn't steal a few from some eldar camps.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Hmm, wonder if GW would give us a jetbike squad?

This is something I'm actually pretty much expecting. Some kind of 2 wound jetbikes on par with Thunderwolf Cavalry wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I'd like to see it but the MotRW has the only one left :/

I've always wondered why the others just didn't steal a few from some eldar camps.

Because:

A) It's alien. How the hell do you expect them to know how to control and maintain them?
B) They're designed for lightly armoured Eldar, not for Power Armour clad Space Marines.
C) Xenos technology. The Imperium would denounce this act almost immediately.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Hmm, wonder if GW would give us a jetbike squad?

This is something I'm actually pretty much expecting. Some kind of 2 wound jetbikes on par with Thunderwolf Cavalry wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I'd like to see it but the MotRW has the only one left :/

I've always wondered why the others just didn't steal a few from some eldar camps.

Because:

A) It's alien. How the hell do you expect them to know how to control and maintain them?
B) They're designed for lightly armoured Eldar, not for Power Armour clad Space Marines.
C) Xenos technology. The Imperium would denounce this act almost immediately.

Dark Angels have killed how many inquisitors by now that have looked into their actions? Though the second part is probably the truest, I guess the jetbike that Sammeal uses would be more designed for them afterall.

Dark Angel Intiate cleaning the lower halls of the rock, trips over, blam, secret switch on the wall by mistake, hidden room full of Jetbikes. Damn this stuff writes itself.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Dark Angel Intiate cleaning the lower halls of the rock, trips over, blam, secret switch on the wall by mistake, hidden room full of Jetbikes. Damn this stuff writes itself.

And inside, Lion'el Johnson is playing Xbox 40,000 whilst stuffing his face full of munchies!

DPBellathrom wrote:
I'd like to see it but the MotRW has the only one left :/

You say that like fluff can't be retconned. Space Wolves didn't ride on giant Wolves before the most recent codex, Sternguard, Vanguard, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Stormravens, Land Speeder Storms, Land Raider Redeemers, and sundry other units didn't exist before the most recent codices, but the fluff paints them as either fairly recent developments or retcons them as something that's been there all along.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Dark Angel Intiate cleaning the lower halls of the rock, trips over, blam, secret switch on the wall by mistake, hidden room full of Jetbikes. Damn this stuff writes itself.

So true

DA is different.

anyone who doesn't like it can meet


Plus i really wanna be able to field a RAvenwing army that is viable.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Dark Angels have killed how many inquisitors by now that have looked into their actions?

I am offended by such libelous statements!

Just because they never happen to make it back from investigating the Rock does not mean that the Dark Angels are killing them or are in any way responsible!

The nerve of some people!

Experiment 626 wrote:No kidding? I mean, it's obvious that the Dark Angels are just yet another vanilla chapter who worshop Girlyman as their spiritual liege, aside from the fact that;
a) They were the first god damn legion of space marines ever created.

Nil effect on gameplay

Experiment 626 wrote:b) They're secretly chaos marines who just haven't accepted that little fact yet!

Nil effect on gameplay

Experiment 626 wrote:c) They have a deep, dark secret and will go to any lengths to protect it... Even going so far as to murder fellow Astartes to keep that deep dark secret, well, secret!
Not to mention they on numerous occasions just packed-up and left in the middle of on-going campaigns, leaving fellow Imperial forces to suffer massive losses or else be wiped out completely by their enemies... (because again, it involves that awful dark secret of theirs!)

Nil effect on gameplay

Experiment 626 wrote:d) They have the most advanced tech of ANY marine chapter. They're the one and only chapter to not only field their 1st company solely in terminator armour, but they have enough termie armour for the entire 1st company! Over 100 suits - even your precious little GK's don't have that! (as no GK company has even been fielded solely in termie armour all at once)
Not only do the Dark Angels have more access to somewhat more stable plasma tech, they also still have jetbike(s), the Heavensfall Blades carried by their high officers, the Blade of Reason, proper Mortis pattern dreads and other insane crap!

You could maybe do something with this, I guess

Experiment 626 wrote:e) Their chaplains have a nasty habbit of hunting people down who might know something dark and secret and then torturing them to death in a variety of nasty and unpleasent ways. All the while, when *really* important individuals are captured, the librarians join in the fun too, along with the entire Inner Circle who are present at the time.
Oh, and then they keep this really super-secret book of names too!

Nil effect on gameplay

Experiment 626 wrote:f) Not only do they have their little midgit friends, but the little creeps have secrets of their own too! Like how there's some ancient dude 'sleeping' at the very center of The Rock...
Plus, the little midgits hold the keys to some other guy's cell, goes by the funny name of Luthur?!!

Nil effect on gameplay

Experiment 626 wrote: Yep, Dark Angels are totally just misunderstood, emo Ultras! 2 Special characters and a pair of USR's are all they need!

Well, I'm not getting anything else. Some extra tech is about all.

Kaldor wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:No kidding? I mean, it's obvious that the Dark Angels are just yet another vanilla chapter who worshop Girlyman as their spiritual liege, aside from the fact that;
a) They were the first god damn legion of space marines ever created.

Nil effect on gameplay not hard to implement a rule

Experiment 626 wrote:b) They're secretly chaos marines who just haven't accepted that little fact yet!

Nil effect on gameplay agreed

Experiment 626 wrote:c) They have a deep, dark secret and will go to any lengths to protect it... Even going so far as to murder fellow Astartes to keep that deep dark secret, well, secret!
Not to mention they on numerous occasions just packed-up and left in the middle of on-going campaigns, leaving fellow Imperial forces to suffer massive losses or else be wiped out completely by their enemies... (because again, it involves that awful dark secret of theirs!)

Nil effect on gameplay Anymore, used to have effect, blame 4th ed codex design

Experiment 626 wrote:d) They have the most advanced tech of ANY marine chapter. They're the one and only chapter to not only field their 1st company solely in terminator armour, but they have enough termie armour for the entire 1st company! Over 100 suits - even your precious little GK's don't have that! (as no GK company has even been fielded solely in termie armour all at once)
Not only do the Dark Angels have more access to somewhat more stable plasma tech, they also still have jetbike(s), the Heavensfall Blades carried by their high officers, the Blade of Reason, proper Mortis pattern dreads and other insane crap!

You could maybe do something with this, I guess you guess?, more was made from less with the BA

Experiment 626 wrote:e) Their chaplains have a nasty habbit of hunting people down who might know something dark and secret and then torturing them to death in a variety of nasty and unpleasent ways. All the while, when *really* important individuals are captured, the librarians join in the fun too, along with the entire Inner Circle who are present at the time.
Oh, and then they keep this really super-secret book of names too!

Nil effect on gameplay again, anymore, blame on poor codex design

Experiment 626 wrote:f) Not only do they have their little midgit friends, but the little creeps have secrets of their own too! Like how there's some ancient dude 'sleeping' at the very center of The Rock...
Plus, the little midgits hold the keys to some other guy's cell, goes by the funny name of Luthur?!!

Nil effect on gameplay apart from the 4+ ivun midget carrying the lion helm, and again, bad codex design

Experiment 626 wrote: Yep, Dark Angels are totally just misunderstood, emo Ultras! 2 Special characters and a pair of USR's are all they need!

Well, I'm not getting anything else. Some extra tech is about all.

in its current incarnation, i am forced to agree with you, however, all of that stems from very poor design philosophy that was going on at the time (less is more), that philosophy failed miserably (Ref: Chaos, DA) and moved onto the 5th ed "more is more" where codex's got even more variety (Ref: Thunderwolf cav, Sanguinor etc.), to say that DA could be added to the SM dex with a few USR's while true, is at the same time utterly wrong, the same can be said of any marine book, or even take it one step further, all PA forces in one book, since they are all the same (apart from fluff) and only need a few USR's to make them diferent, we could have Codex:3+ save and codex:4+ save (now with extra USR!!!).

(Ref: Chaos, DA, Orks, Eldar, Chaos Daemons)

Added more, the only one of those that used to be awesome was Eldar, but that was because their skimmer tanks were so OP back than

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

(Ref: Chaos, DA, Orks, Eldar, Chaos Daemons)

Added more, the only one of those that used to be awesome was Eldar, but that was because their skimmer tanks were so OP back than

i agree with all but the orks on that one, its really odd, but every edition of orks has been widly considered quite balanced and well made... well apart from the speed freaks lol

our point does still stand though

Kaldor wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Because the only people who believe the only distinction they have are Deathwing and Ravenwing have only read the recent crap, and have only seen Jervis "I can't write a good book" Johnsons codex's

Well, what other differences are there? Or should there be? As far as I can tell, they're really just a standard codex chapter.

Marshall Ragnar wrote:Are we seriously starting another thread about this?

I haven't come across any threads on it, and it's a topic I'm keen to discuss with my fellow gamers. If that grinds your gears, feel free to bow out of the thread now.

As a friendly note, very few people consider continous posts of useless one liners such as "Nil effect on gameplay" as an actual discussion.

There have been ample examples of why DA do deserve a codex of their own. It is obvious that you are not at all interested in an actual discussion but instead you have your opinion set and are merly flame baiting.

tedurur wrote:As a friendly note, very few people consider continous posts of useless one liners such as "Nil effect on gameplay" as an actual discussion.

There have been ample examples of why DA do deserve a codex of their own. It is obvious that you are not at all interested in an actual discussion but instead you have your opinion set and are merly flame baiting.

How else does one respond to continous points that have no merit? A chapter needs something discernably different about it to warrant it's own codex. It needs something that will actually require different rules to effectively model on the table-top. Having secrets, or access to special wargear, or chaplains with a penchant for turture isn't really good enough.

I don't mind if they get another codex, I just think they're going to have to work really hard to shoe-horn some new units and stuff in there. The Blood Angels barely warrant their own codex, and the Dark Angels even less.

Kaldor wrote:How else does one respond to continous points that have no merit? A chapter needs something discernably different about it to warrant it's own codex. It needs something that will actually require different rules to effectively model on the table-top. Having secrets, or access to special wargear, or chaplains with a penchant for turture isn't really good enough.

I don't mind if they get another codex, I just think they're going to have to work really hard to shoe-horn some new units and stuff in there. The Blood Angels barely warrant their own codex, and the Dark Angels even less.[/b]

As I have pointed out before, the current DA codex was written for 4th ed, I believe, and used for a test bed for the SM codex. With these two points, I can quite clearly draw a link between why various features of the DA codex have been integrated into the *newer* Codex:SM. Currently, there aren't many distinguishing features. However, that does not mean that the Codex should be "Eliminated". They might update it at the beginning of 6th edition for the starter set, as the DA have received quite a bit of attention, for example, the 40K paint set now gives you the resources to paint DARK ANGELS rather than UM.

Also, BA do actually deserve a Codex of their own, as they have not only new rules, but different characters and new units. You wouldn't see Death Company in an Ultramarines army. It just doesn't work.

I just think they're going to have to work really hard to shoe-horn some new units and stuff in there. The Blood Angels barely warrant their own codex, and the Dark Angels even less.

Didn't point it out before, but the space wolves used to be all about the wargear before they got..more wolfy wargear, and saga's, and wolves!

Chapter Doctrine Could be based around how they are notoriously stubborn, and would refuse to give grounds to the enemy, refusing to withdraw from combat to the death. I'll use an example from deathwatch, as it tried hard to beat this into one's head. (Plus I love the 40k rpgs, so fun). The Chapter Doctrine could give them a bonus for being unmoving, so long as they don't move they gain +1 Toughness and + 1 BS (along with stubborn). Could be called Stoic Defense and would also work after one turn of assault combat to represent them stoically standing in combat. Of course this wouldn't work so well with Ravenwing/Deathwing, but perhaps as a speciality they could gain their own Chapter Doctrines in response (Rather like The vanilla dex's point of taking different chapters), making them unique within the dex.

Special wargear could simply represent newer squads with more advanced technology, Sergent's with heavenfall blades, squads based around stronger wargear. (Better bolters perhaps, I always enjoy seeing new variants), Newer pre-heresy tech (They could shoe-horn anything and everything here, considering how much was lost)

Librarians with defensive/shooty powers (Like how deathwatch has them, they are the only one with a psyker based invulnerable afterall), maybe more forceful morale checks along with defensive abilities. The Weaken Resolve Ability that the Imperial Guard enjoy used to be a Librarian power for Dark Angels before.

Chaplains would be more standard, being more wolfguardish when leading brothers, while Interrogator chaplains would be an HQ choice.

As for their larger perchance for Servitors, they could gain Servitor squads, strong meat shields armed with weaponry lead by Tech Marines. Not to mention these servitors are stronger, as they are Dark Angels that failed in their ascension to becoming Dark Angels, as well as becoming masters. Or learning unnecessary secrets before they've raised rank.

New wargear options for Deathwing and Ravenwing. Terminators need something new, and with some of the older tech that hasn't seen the light of day yet past rogue trader/2nd edition, they could regain the mobile plasma blasters, as well as the larger melta guns that spewed it rather like flamers.

Kaldor wrote:
How else does one respond to continous points that have no merit? A chapter needs something discernably different about it to warrant it's own codex. It needs something that will actually require different rules to effectively model on the table-top. Having secrets, or access to special wargear, or chaplains with a penchant for turture isn't really good enough.

I don't mind if they get another codex

Continuous points that have no merit in your, safe to say, very biased opinion that armies should only have their own codices if they play completely differently on the tabletop than any other existing army. As others have said, you are really not interested in debating this matter, and you only care about shouting your opinion out loud so everyone can hear what you think. Well thank you, we have heard and understand that you don't think the DA deserve their own codex. You may now either stop repeating yourself and insulting other posters' points with immature repetetive answers or actually take part in the debate.

And it does seem that you do mind if they get another codex.

As for the OT, the DA codex played very differently to other marine codices when it first came out. Since then, the other marines have caught up and rules have been shared out. The new one, when it comes because it will whether you want it to or not, will play just as differently as its predecessor all those years ago.

I'm betting we'll see the return of the Stubborn rule everywhere, more plasma weapons than seems safe, jetbike squads, lots of chaplains and more bathrobes!

What did Blood Angels have before their most recent codex? They had assault marines as troops and death company which were assault marines with 1 more attack. They also had 2x ccw dreads.

What did Space Wolves have before their most recent codex? They had blood claws which were just scouts with ccw, a unit effectively identical to the death company, and that's about it.

The point is before their most recent books none of the marine chapters warranted their own books outside of a fluff standpoint which could have been just as available if GW went back to the IA books or something along those lines.

Dark Angels have enough background to develop them just as much as the most recent blood angels and space wolf codex did. Just because everything they have from a rules perspective has been handed out to every other marine book doesn't mean they're a lost cause.

If your intention is to merge ALL of the marines into a single book then feel free to drop them. Short of that, stick with what we have and make Dark Angels stand out from a rules perspective like they used to before the most recent SW and GK books took everything they had going for them.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Continuous points that have no merit in your, safe to say, very biased opinion that armies should only have their own codices if they play completely differently on the tabletop than any other existing army. As others have said, you are really not interested in debating this matter, and you only care about shouting your opinion out loud so everyone can hear what you think. Well thank you, we have heard and understand that you don't think the DA deserve their own codex. You may now either stop repeating yourself and insulting other posters' points with immature repetetive answers or actually take part in the debate.

And it does seem that you do mind if they get another codex.

As for the OT, the DA codex played very differently to other marine codices when it first came out. Since then, the other marines have caught up and rules have been shared out. The new one, when it comes because it will whether you want it to or not, will play just as differently as its predecessor all those years ago.

Chill out dude!

Theres a thousand Marine chapters out there. I can't think of any good reason why DA should get their own codex while Raven Guard, Imperial Fists or Iron Hands do not, and the only reason others have been able to think of is they have more tech.

GW will undoubtedly create a new codex for them, but they're going to basically have to re-write the entire chapter to create some tangible differences.

Brother SRM wrote:

Skylifter wrote:1. They have only been the "testbed" for C:SM once, Brother SRM.

I listed a bunch of features that got co-opted from both the 3rd ed and 4th ed codices. Their newer codex had a lot more stuff lifted wholesale out of it though. Codex: Angels of Death obviously lead into Codex: Ultramarines quite a bit as well.

Codex Ultramarines was released in 1995. Codex Angels of Death was released in 1996. How did Angels of Death influence a book that was released before it?

Kaldor wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Continuous points that have no merit in your, safe to say, very biased opinion that armies should only have their own codices if they play completely differently on the tabletop than any other existing army. As others have said, you are really not interested in debating this matter, and you only care about shouting your opinion out loud so everyone can hear what you think. Well thank you, we have heard and understand that you don't think the DA deserve their own codex. You may now either stop repeating yourself and insulting other posters' points with immature repetetive answers or actually take part in the debate.

And it does seem that you do mind if they get another codex.

As for the OT, the DA codex played very differently to other marine codices when it first came out. Since then, the other marines have caught up and rules have been shared out. The new one, when it comes because it will whether you want it to or not, will play just as differently as its predecessor all those years ago.

Chill out dude!

Theres a thousand Marine chapters out there. I can't think of any good reason why DA should get their own codex while Raven Guard, Imperial Fists or Iron Hands do not, and the only reason others have been able to think of is they have more tech.

GW will undoubtedly create a new codex for them, but they're going to basically have to re-write the entire chapter to create some tangible differences.

*Has listed three large posts with things that could be given to them based on fluff that have been ignored*

Yeah at this point I'm agreeing with Lord Rogukiel

Raven Guard

Fights using the basic codex astartes methods, uses assault troops as troops, thus basically they are done by blood angels

Imperial Fists

Siege warfare, which doesn't even come with rules anymore, aside from that they fight just like the book. And if you want a siege army so bad use the Bedab War army list and call it Imperial Fists.

Iron Hands

Closest thing I could think of is like the Dread Mob army list, with their HQ being represented by dreadnoughts.

We might see a return of the Native American theme in the Dark Angel army.

-Loki- wrote:
Codex Ultramarines was released in 1995. Codex Angels of Death was released in 1996. How did Angels of Death influence a book that was released before it?

By me cocking up the dates of my 2nd ed history. My bad!

ZebioLizard2 wrote: *Has listed three large posts with things that could be given to them based on fluff that have been ignored*

Yeah at this point I'm agreeing with Lord Rogukiel

Look, the overwhelming majority of points listed only cover behind-the-scenes background for the Dark Angels. Sure, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists and the others all fight according to the codex, but my point is so do the Dark Angels. They don't really do anything different, and they never really have.

Aside from the terminators, the bikes, the wargeär and the rules, of course.

Kaldor wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote: *Has listed three large posts with things that could be given to them based on fluff that have been ignored*

Yeah at this point I'm agreeing with Lord Rogukiel

Look, the overwhelming majority of points listed only cover behind-the-scenes background for the Dark Angels. Sure, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists and the others all fight according to the codex, but my point is so do the Dark Angels. They don't really do anything different, and they never really have.

I understand what your trying to say dude, but you are mistaken, it seems that you are only looking at the current DA book and in that you are right, they are far too similar to the C:SM book, but that is the fault of the writers not the
fluff etc.

If it will make it easier i will list the things that can very simply be added to the book to make it diferent

HQ: Interogator chaps, you know the 3 wound super chaplains we have (and want to keep) the usual lib (but with morale sapping powers as oposed to buf spells), belial, azrael, ezekial (the holder of the keys etc, and one of the few 3 wound libs out there), it would be easy to add watchers as a upgrade to characters, as well as the last surviving flying harley (samael)

Elite: DW termies could be equiped with any of the usual HW options (las, plas etc), they get apothecaries and banners already, as well as an abundance of TH/SS and LC guys, you could add sternguard termies and vanguard to represent the fact that they have no PA 1st company (current book messing this up, and giving us company vets) as well as true mortis dreads and maybe even 0-1 official contemptors, also put chaplains in here, and as simple as that you have 3-4 unique elite choices for just the DA

troops: Dev sqaud, thats right i said it, i want DA to be all guns blazing chapter, and tac, scouts that can take the speeder as a transport, this alone would make them totally diferent from any other chapter (and fits the fluff as a dakka chapter)

FA: Ravenwing scout bikes, ravenwing attack sqaud, ravenwing support sqaud, ravenwing attack bikes and ravenwing interceptors (jetbikes)

Heavy: LR Repentor (plasma LR) and other variants, Vidicator and Vindi plasma variant, elite devs (sort of like long fangs without split fire)


then throw in more units for mono RW or mono DW armies and you have one hell of the unique dex, as with all the new units from the new marine dex's, just cause you havent seen it before, dont mean it aint there so to speak


Automatically Appended Next Post:
as another thought, tell me you wouldnt want this

LR repentor 240pts
FR S R BS
14 14 14 4
Options: stuff
armaments: 3 sponson mounted twin linked plasmaguns (like the crusader)
front mounter twin linked plasma cannon

I would love to see this tank

Kaldor wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote: *Has listed three large posts with things that could be given to them based on fluff that have been ignored*

Yeah at this point I'm agreeing with Lord Rogukiel

Look, the overwhelming majority of points listed only cover behind-the-scenes background for the Dark Angels. Sure, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists and the others all fight according to the codex, but my point is so do the Dark Angels. They don't really do anything different, and they never really have.

So everything goes back into the one book for everyone, gray knights go back to just being strike squads and terminators, as well as a just a captain/grand master option.

Without the fluff nothing would have changed for anything, and the fluff is what can have additional change. Else the blood angels would have just been the "One unique squad" and space wolves would have been the "Gray hunters with true grit!" option.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:So everything goes back into the one book for everyone, gray knights go back to just being strike squads and terminators, as well as a just a captain/grand master option.

oh yeah, and its DA, EVERYTHING is behind the scenes lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
wrong quote lol