Dark Angels?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Kaldor**

Do they really deserve a codex of their own? It seems to me that their only real distinction is being able to field either Terminators or Bikes as troops. Do we really need a whole codex to flesh that idea out?

**ZebioLizard2**

Because the only people who believe the only distinction they have are Deathwing and Ravenwing have only read the recent crap, and have only seen Jervis "I can't write a good book" Johnsons codex's

**Marshall Ragnar**

Are we seriously starting another thread about this?

**Kaldor**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Because the only people who believe the only distinction they have are Deathwing and Ravenwing have only read the recent crap, and have only seen Jervis "I can't write a good book" Johnsons codex's

Well, what other differences are there? Or should there be? As far as I can tell, they're really just a standard codex chapter.

Marshall Ragnar wrote:Are we seriously starting another thread about this?

I haven't come across any threads on it, and it's a topic I'm keen to discuss with my fellow gamers. If that grinds your gears, feel free to bow out of the thread now.

**ZebioLizard2**

Kaldor wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Because the only people who believe the only distinction they have are Deathwing and Ravenwing have only read the recent crap, and have only seen Jervis "I can't write a good book" Johnsons codex's

Well, what other differences are there? Or should there be? As far as I can tell, they're really just a standard codex chapter.

Marshall Ragnar wrote:Are we seriously starting another thread about this?

I haven't come across any threads on it, and it's a topic I'm keen to discuss with my fellow gamers. If that grinds your gears, feel free to bow out of the thread now.

Re posting from the dark angels thread on their uniqueness in the fluff, and potential for change.

While it's never reflected in the gameplay is the fact that they have a large array of pre-heresy tech that they can still continue to produce unlike most of the Imperium, not to mention the varied technology that far outweighs even the most advanced tech within the imperium, with Azreals helmet for note, which can grant an invulnerable save bubble of 4++ to an entire squad while being held by someone else due to its force field technology all pent up in a HELMET. Alot of this could come down to new and vastly different technological weapons, and yes, cheaper and more common plasma. (But not plasma plasma plasma)

They've also gained strange new devices from the Watchers in the Dark sometimes going up to them and giving them the artifacts which have never been seen before, crafted by them for unique purposes, not to mention being unique little buggers which are almost like pariahs in that they can nullify the warp around them, and even will carry weapons into battle. Though they never fight directly.

Along with the special weapons crafted from the jet black meteor that crashed into the rock which is carved and given to masters as a showing of their induction to the circles (Azreal again with his S6 sword, Belial and Sammeal for some reason have less..effective ones for some unexplained reason)

They have special chaplains devoted entirely to torture and forcing repenting Fallen ones with the special Blades of Reason, not to mention the special rosaries carried by those who have converted a number of them. Not sure what to do with them, but hey their nice.

Their Tech marines and servitors are far greater in number, due in part to how many numbers of those who fail to become dark angels, or fail to rise up in the ranks becoming forced into becoming servitors. Not to mention they have entire groups of "Iron Wing" battalions.

They also are one of the most shooty of the armies, originally in the fluff being the only one with double twin linked weapons. (And still now the only one with TL missile launchers and TL Lascannon's) I'd love to see them finally get the proper Mortis dreadnought included into their list

They also have dedicated standards, which while odd they have the most of any chapter, and originally one of their...Older unique things was the benefits their standards granted in a bubble. One of which was an overwatch effect.

**Steelmage99**

Taken from a poster whose name I have forgotten;

When the subject of combining the various space marine codexes comes up, I always hear something along the lines of "Well, Dark Angels are practically vanilla, so they can be folded into C:SM easily".

Well, they bloody well are vanilla now, aren't they!?!

Proclaming Dark Angels as being vanilla just shows ones age.
Back in the day (apparently before this game was over-run with kids. Get of my lawn!) Dark Angels used to be unique.

They had Stubborn Terminators that could be Troops, they had Fearless Bikers that could be Troops, they had the Tornado Land Speeder and they had unique acces to heavy weapons such as Plasma Cannons in Tactical Squads.

So who amongst the kids present would like to say; "Listen, old man, Space Wolves can get Terminators as Troops, Vanilla Marines have had biker Troops for a long time and everybody gets the Tornado and the Plasma Cannons!"?

Yes, they damn well can NOW!

You kids must realize that once those things were unique to Dark Angels. It was part of what made them special.

The Dark Angels codex is not a case of having been given no special things as such. It is a case of everybody else being granted access to all the things that used to be Dark Angels only.

The fate of Dark Angels is not to be made a codex-chapter. It is to be given new stuff and units, making them unique once again, just like the Space Wolves codex and the Blood Angels codex.

...

**Brother SRM**

Dark Angels have historically been a testbed for Codex: Space Marines, and have most of their features co-opted in the following vanilla codex. Examples include bikes as troops, manstopper rounds (S4) on shotguns, plasma cannons outside of Devastator squads, Mortis-pattern Dreadnoughts (technically a Forgeworld unit, but still originally Dark Angels) and even The Black Sword is a generic piece of wargear that Space Marine captains can get now.

The same justification could have been made for Blood Angels, but they got a wealth of new units and abilities in their new codex to make them distinct, like Librarian dreadnoughts, Stormravens, Sanguinary Guard, the return of Sanguinary Priests as ICs, and their few old special units returning. Dark Angels will likely get the same treatment, with some new units to make them special.

**Wolf guard 252**

Dark Angels were the first Space Marine chapter, EVER, not only do they have the Ravenwing and Deathwing, but they also "started" the whole Space Marine chapters. As a Dark Angel player I believe they should have their own codex, because they bring so much flavor into 40k.

**Kaldor**

So basically, theres no reason for them to have a codex? I mean, they used to be different, but they have no good reason to be different any more. Theres no really unique chapter traits or wargear that require a different codex.

**BlapBlapBlap**

Well, the fact is that the Dark Angels codex comes from before the newer SM codex; the Dark Angels were once unique, but now thanks to some writers and other such things, their "Unique" qualities have become widespread.

Fearless Bikers and Terminators, designed to work in harmony is pretty much the main redeeming quality of DA at the moment unfortunately.

One day the lion shall rise again... One day...

**DA's Forever**

Kaldor wrote:So basically, theres no reason for them to have a codex? I mean, they used to be different, but they have no good reason to be different any more. Theres no really unique chapter traits or wargear that require a different codex.

Right NOW there isnt a reason for them to have their own codex. However, when/if GW makes a new Codex: DA I'm sure the will spice it up with unique DA stuff.

**ZebioLizard2**

Kaldor wrote:So basically, theres no reason for them to have a codex? I mean, they used to be different, but they have no good reason to be different any more. Theres no really unique chapter traits or wargear that require a different codex.

After I just pointed out a few...They have the most pre-heresy tech, to the point that the only people with more advanced gear is the direct line of Adeptas Mechanicus, or the Inquistors!

They train their own tech priests and have the first highest amount of servitors (Over even the iron hands), They have little warp resistant beings that make unique tech, They have more Pre- Heresy tech than the entirety of the chapters COMBINED, as well as being able to reproduce it in their own factories (Reason for so much more Tactical Dreadnought Armor)! Azreal has a Helmet that grants a force field over an entire squad, and it's a 4++ save as an example of said weaponry, Weapons for their masters (Sargent and up ) That are made from a powerful substance that crashed into the Rock, They even have a unique variant of dreadnought! (Yes the Mortis dreadnought is still unique, at least the others can't take double twin linked missles or lascannons..)

They were even the only army in 3rd edition to keep overwatch due to one of their unique standards.

For

sakes, read the actual fluff, ignore the actual codex gameplay. It was written by Jervis, who is as bad as Alessio when it comes to "streamlining everything down". By what your saying is we should get rid of Chaos space marines, as blood angels can do everything it can, but far better,. Same with Black Templars vs Space Wolves

**BlapBlapBlap**

Kaldor wrote:So basically, theres no reason for them to have a codex? I mean, they used to be different, but they have no good reason to be different any more. Theres no really unique chapter traits or wargear that require a different codex.

You sir, are playing a very dangerous game...

**Skylifter**

1. They have only been the "testbed" for C:SM once, Brother SRM.

2. As to the main topic, what qualities does a chapter need to "deserve" a codex? If it is a completely unique organisation, then none but SW need their own codex.

3. Maybe the DA will actually be the new poster boys for the SM codex - who knows? But in any case, there simply is a demand, so GW will produce a DA codex to make money. And if they get their own codex instead of being the poster boys, I am quite sure that they will get at least two completely new, unique units, because at the moment, every new book introduces completely new units into the game.

**Just Dave**

I agree with the OP to some extent, in that Dark Angels don't really seem to warrant a Codex of their own, CURRENTLY.

However, I think it wouldn't be too hard to make the Dark Angel Codex justifiably different from the Space Marine Codex.

Dark Angels can be diversified through being shooty-specialists, with unique and rare wargear, whilst the Deathwing and Ravenwing are more 'veteran/elite' all biker/termie armies. Then you also have the problem of Azreal, Sammiel and Belial being core characters and likely deserving Special Character selections of their own, suggesting at least 3 more additional special characters should be added to the Space Marine Codex.

Whilst I'm all for less Space Marine variant Codices, it is likely much more practical for the Dark Angels to keep their own Codex.

**Kaldor**

Skylifter wrote:2. As to the main topic, what qualities does a chapter need to "deserve" a codex? If it is a completely unique organisation, then none but SW need their own codex.

Black Templars and Blood Angels too. Blood Angels were a bit 'iffy' as far as I was concerned, but the Death Company really seals it for me.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:They have the most pre-heresy tech, to the point that the only people with more advanced gear is the direct line of Adeptas Mechanicus, or the Inquistors!

For sakes, read the actual fluff, ignore the actual codex gameplay.

Sure sure, but none of that actually impacts the way the chapter plays on the table. Having acess to wargear and servitors is hardly the sole province of the DA, and certainly isn't a good enough reason to have their own codex.

DA's Forever wrote:when/if GW makes a new Codex: DA I'm sure the will spice it up with unique DA stuff.

But, by and large they'd have to create new background to do it, right?

**ZebioLizard2**

Sure sure, but none of that actually impacts the way the chapter plays on the table. Having acess to wargear and servitors is hardly the sole province of the DA, and certainly isn't a good enough reason to have their own codex.

Having access to wargear certainly changed up the way Blood Angels plays. Because they didn't use to be the "Assault squads all the time" army. I do have the previous codex for them, and they were in the same boat.

To put it bluntly, to have only DA complained about when Space Wolves and Blood Angels were near the Exact same way as the vanilla dex is staggeringly annoying when you use one of the last books to be updated for space marines.

But, by and large they'd have to create new background to do it, right?

Didn't need it for the Blood Angels.

**Kaldor**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Didn't need it for the Blood Angels.

Blood Angels are a touch different. They have unique units in terms of the Death Company. I mean sure, they also have furioso dreads, baal preds and stormravens, but those are just vehicles that could be included in the codex. Apart from that they have a unique identity as an assault heavy army. An inbuilt theme, in you will.

Apart from having lots of tech, Dark Angels don't really have anything to seperate them from the herd.

**ZebioLizard2**

Apart from that they have a unique identity as an assault heavy army. An inbuilt theme, in you will.

As amazing as it sounds, the previous dex had them actually use tactical marines as their main source of troops, what with assault squads being regulated to the fast attack slot like usual, and only being able to take one scout squad as a troop choice.

They were even more dependent upon tactical than dark angels, funnily enough due to this.

Their unique "Death Company squad" also used to be far different, they rolled for each model in the army, on a one they were delegated to the squad, though it worked pretty much the same way, though feel no pain was far more unique back than it is now.

Baal's old difference? It could take heavy flamers.

Furiso? The 2D6 attack on vehicles

Sanguinary High Priest? Most unique thing, his 6" bubble allowed for to hit rolls and he was an apothecary.

**Lord Rogukiel**

As others have said, taking away the unique codex from the DA would be equivalent to taking it away from the BA, SW and BT. It's not going to happen and DA just need a new codex with new stuff tto reaffirm their difference from the other SM chapters.

**Morathi's Darkest Sin**

Aye, a lot of what makes the Blood Angels stand out as a independant codex now, wasn't as detailed in their previous one, or existed at all.

Dark Angels will be the same, expect new stuff, and more defined work on what was there.

Its going to be epic. Well hopefully.

**Platuan4th**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Apart from that they have a unique identity as an assault heavy army. An inbuilt theme, in you will.

As amazing as it sounds, the previous dex had them actually use tactical marines as their main source of troops, what with assault squads being regulated to the fast attack slot like usual, and only being able to take one scout squad as a troop choice.

This one's not quite true. They could take any number of Scout Squads, they only got 0-1 of "Blood Angels Scout Squad" which had different options and was meant to represent Scouts that were close to "graduating" to full marines and thus were starting to feel the effects of the flaw.

**ZebioLizard2**

Platuan4th wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Apart from that they have a unique identity as an assault heavy army. An inbuilt theme, in you will.

As amazing as it sounds, the previous dex had them actually use tactical marines as their main source of troops, what with assault squads being regulated to the fast attack slot like usual, and only being able to take one scout squad as a troop choice.

This one's not quite true. They could take any number of Scout Squads, they only got 0-1 of "Blood Angels Scout Squad" which had different options and was meant to represent Scouts that were close to "graduating" to full marines and thus were starting to feel the effects of the flaw.

Ah yes sorry, you're right on this one, what they 0-1 they could take was the standard codex scout squad.

But still, it re-affirms that they were still close to the original vanilla dex.

**Morathi's Darkest Sin**

Just looked up the White Dwarf Dex from 2007, and its surprising how much they gained in the last BA dex.

Like I said above, I expect the Dark Angels to gain new stuff as well, and Dark Angels have Deathwing and Ravenwing to expand on, never mind the actual rest of the book.

**Experiment 626**

Kaldor wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Didn't need it for the Blood Angels.

Blood Angels are a touch different. They have unique units in terms of the Death Company. I mean sure, they also have furioso dreads, baal preds and stormravens, but those are just vehicles that could be included in the codex. Apart from that they have a unique identity as an assault heavy army. An inbuilt theme, in you will.

Apart from having lots of tech, Dark Angels don't really have anything to seperate them from the herd.

No kidding? I mean, it's obvious that the Dark Angels are just yet another vanilla chapter who worshop Girlyman as their spiritual liege, aside from the fact that;
a) They were the first god damn legion of space marines ever created.

b) They're secretly chaos marines who just haven't accepted that little fact yet!

c) They have a deep, dark secret and will go to any lengths to protect it... Even going so far as to murder fellow Astartes to keep that deep dark secret, well, secret!
Not to mention they on numerous occasions just packed-up and left in the middle of on-going campaigns, leaving fellow Imperial forces to suffer massive losses or else be wiped out completely by their enemies... (because again, it involves that awful dark secret of theirs!)

d) They have the most advanced tech of ANY marine chapter. They're the one and only chapter to not only field their 1st company solely in terminator armour, but they have enough termie armour for the entire 1st company! Over 100 suits - even your precious little GK's don't have that!

(as no GK company has even been fielded solely in termie armour all at once)
Not only do the Dark Angels have more access to somewhat more stable plasma tech, they also still have jetbike(s), the Heavensfall Blades carried by their high officers, the Blade of Reason, proper Mortis pattern dreads and other insane crap!

e) Their chaplains have a nasty habbit of hunting people down who might know something dark and secret and then torturing them to death in a variety of nasty and unpleasent ways. All the while, when *really* important individuals are captured, the librarians join in the fun too, along with the entire Inner Circle who are present at the time.
Oh, and then they keep this really super-secret book of names too!

f) Not only do they have their little midgit friends, but the little creeps have secrets of their own too! Like how there's some ancient dude 'sleeping' at the very center of The Rock...
Plus, the little midgits hold the keys to some other guy's cell, goes by the funny name of Luthur?!!

Yep, Dark Angels are totally just misunderstood, emo Ultras! 2 Special characters and a pair of USR's are all they need!

**Brother SRM**

Skylifter wrote:1. They have only been the "testbed" for C:SM once, Brother SRM.

I listed a bunch of features that got co-opted from both the 3rd ed and 4th ed codices. Their newer codex had a lot more stuff lifted wholesale out of it though. Codex: Angels of Death obviously lead into Codex: Ultramarines quite a bit as well.

**Morathi's Darkest Sin**

Hmm, wonder if GW would give us a jetbike squad?

**Brother SRM**

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Hmm, wonder if GW would give us a jetbike squad?

This is something I'm actually pretty much expecting. Some kind of 2 wound jetbikes on par with Thunderwolf Cavalry wouldn't surprise me in the least.

**ZebioLizard2**

Brother SRM wrote:
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Hmm, wonder if GW would give us a jetbike squad?

This is something I'm actually pretty much expecting. Some kind of 2 wound jetbikes on par with Thunderwolf Cavalry wouldn't surprise me in the least.

The only thing that would surprise me at this point is if they actually continue the storyline.

**Brother SRM**

The biggest theme of the Imperium and 40k as a whole is stagnation, so it would be pretty surprising. I think there will be the continuing winks and hints at progress, but nothing serious.