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Its not that we are trying to argue, its that we are saving you time from looking these things up and answering them.

calypso2ts wrote:

Jancoran wrote:Maybe. But im not going to.

That is good, it is usually best to go in ask for a quick summary and then make important decisions based on limited experience and understanding. I have found this strategy to be successful in resolving rules debates in many game situations by just saying 'on a 4+ I am correct?'

Let's be honest well over half the rules get started that way, by making a gut call/die roll on the spot. The debate then works out the real ruling later. And sometimes in the case of "best guess" rules like swarms+ blast+ID get ruled one way then when something scary like Necrons come out it gets re-ruled the other way. If he wants to say only Tau armies are allowed, then as a TO he can make that ruling. End of the day, the TO is lord and master under the Emperor at what ever even they are run.

calypso2ts wrote:

Jancoran wrote:Maybe. But im not going to.

That is good, it is usually best to go in ask for a quick summary and then make important decisions based on limited experience and understanding. I have found this strategy to be successful in resolving rules debates in many game situations by just saying 'on a 4+ I am correct?'

I don't think you know me well enough to suggest I have a lack of experience, nor understanding; nor that the goal here is to JUST get a quick summary. I think...what i SAID...was that we would research those. I think it wisdom to ask the people actively playing for their list of things that seem to be inadequately covered by the GW FAQ's. And so I am doing the wise thing: fishing for that information in the biggest fishing holes I can find.

My favorite is if you turbo boost in the scout phase, then you get the first turn. You move again, shoot, and maybe even assault something, do you still get your 3+ cover save during your opponents following shooting phase?

RAW and GW FAQ says yes. But I'm TFG for doing it

Akroma06 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
FNP vs Hexrifle, Entropic Strike, Pinning, et. al.

Hexrifle has the sniper rule so a 6 to wound says no to FNP, entropic strike removes your armor it does not make the other attacks ignore all amror saves so yes you get FNP. Now if it is do you get FNP do you loose your armor from Entropic Strike...lets not go there.

... Which is the controversial subject that I was talking about. Hex rifle also has an effect on an unsaved wound - which is why I included it. Thanks though.

rigeld2 wrote:
Removed from Play vs Removed from Play as a casualty

It will say as a casualty otherwise you are simply removed (honestly this is another "questionable" field.)

Again, which is why I posted it. Thanks for confirming?

Emperor awfulness wrote:Can Anrakyr (or similar) use their non-shooting special abilities requiring LOS while on an open-topped transport. For that matter, why does the FAQ clarify that shooting can use fire points to draw LOS, but other types of LOS can't?

Answer to this is no.
The reason for the FAQ was to explicitly remove the option for Anrakyr, Coteaz etc. to use their LOS requiring special rules while embarked. Fire points entry on BRB was not explicit that the "Ranges and line of sight are measured from the fire point itself." part was only referring to shooting and psychic powers and FAQ clarified this was actually the case.

There was huge debate about whether open-topped vehicles have fire points or not, but it doesn't really matter because it anyway boils down to these two options:
1) open-topped vehicles have (infinite) fire points and the FAQ applies as it is or
2) open-topped vehicles don't have fire points but their rules only allow shooting out of them, and because of this, you're not allowed to use wargear or special rules that require LOS while being embarked on open-topped transport.

edit: only now realised part of the post had been snipped out

Looks like I got some research to do.

I understand the Anrakyr argument, and even if I disagree with the dakka rules warriors, the FAQ is terrible in that regard. It was a one word reply to a complex question, and was contrary to how the game has been played for a long time. And if it was meant to nerf the characters it did, it was also a bad call by GW. Either way, an expanded faq for a tournament should include how the ruling will be interpreted.

Do Dangerous Terrain and Gets Hot! require the specific model to be removed as a casualty or can you remove another identical model?

If a model has a 4+ armor save and a 5+ rerollable cover save, can the player choose which save to use?

Another one: Does a Terminator Sergeant (with the same wargear) count as identical to the regular Terminators in his unit for the purpose of wound allocation?

Heres another one..if its rerollable its still a 4+. you have to take the best save, 3+.

biccat wrote:Do Dangerous Terrain and Gets Hot! require the specific model to be removed as a casualty or can you remove another identical model?

If a model has a 4+ armor save and a 5+ rerollable cover save, can the player choose which save to use?

Another one: Does a Terminator Sergeant (with the same wargear) count as identical to the regular Terminators in his unit for the purpose of wound allocation?

You must use the best availible save so you must use the armour untill you get an AP4 hit.

And yes he is different as he has a different name, if not statline to the others.

Careful Deadshot, people will argue that the name is not part of the statline.

He has a seperate statline. Doesn't matter if its the same. Its a different statline

Any others or did we run out?

nvm

Deleted.

How do sweep attacks work?

That is, what does "moves over" mean? Can I move 18", go over the top of the enemy squad 1", move back 1" (in the exact direction that I came) and still make attacks?

I have been to two GTs that ruled opposite ways on this, and many rtts where at the very least the question came up. If you rule against the RaW, you will definitely need diagrams to show people how to do it correctly.

Mindshackle scarabs vs. The Perfect Warrior

Both seem to have replacement effects for attacks.

Mindshackle Scarabs vs. Grey Knights

Many squads will want to cleansing flame or hammerhand before mindshackles go off. Mindshackles should happen in-game simultaneously with psychic tests, but in real time it is possible to renig if the mindshackle test is made first unless you call out which psychic powers you are going to use before the mindshackle test is rolled.

Vehicles rotating on the first turn vs. Oval-based MCs rotating

The inat allows it for vehicles, but not for MCs. There was a lot of confusion about this @ adepticon

Cleansing Flame vs. Hypnotic Gaze

Recent dust-up over this one on the forum, sould be in recent posts.

Deadshot wrote:He has a seperate statline. Doesn't matter if its the same. Its a different statline

It calls for the profile (Which is numeric values) weapons, wargear, and rules to be identical.

Different profiles can be numerically identical.

Re: INAT.

Just because you disagree with some of the rulings, doesn't mean a majority of gamers do too.

KGatch113 wrote:

Re: INAT.

Just because you disagree with some of the rulings, doesn't mean a majority of gamers do too.

Uh...is this towards me? Or one of the deleted comments? Or...what?

okay i have finished a lot of the FAQ's. The necron ones are going to still take a little time as that is the last one I need to work on but thank you so much to those who contributed. they will be on the website www.40kambassadors.com for you to look at by late tonight or early tomorrow sometime. Spanks.

Jancoran wrote: The necron ones are going to still take a little time

Are Necrons the most contentious? (Lots of fiddly odd bits.)

I have a feeling for these guys, Crons will enter Nerfdom...

Nah. They're fine.

Heres the answers we came up with for all the stuff I collected here and elsewhere for the tourney:

Various and sundry

When a re-roll is allowed and does not specify whether it affects successes or failures, can you re-roll a success or a failure?
Answer: Yes, if it hasn’t been re-rolled already you can. However certain re-roll abilities conflict with one another and this is covered in the BRB FAQ clearly.
Note that when rolling for Reserves or choosing sides while Outflanking and you have an ability that lets you re-roll, the player attempting it can use it as normal. The opponent may then at his option use his ability to force a re-roll. This is obviously unusual, but it is fair that the enemy should be able to affect your ultimate outcome if he has an ability to do so normally.

If you turbo boost in the scout phase, then you get the first turn. Move, shoot, and maybe even assault something, do you still get your 3+ cover save during your opponents following shooting phase
Answer: No. The movement counts as it it was done on the preceding Movement phase, per the FAQ, which means at the beginning of your turn, you must do it again to regain the advantage.

Do Dangerous Terrain and Gets Hot! require the specific model to be removed as a casualty or can you remove another identical model?
Answer: the specific model, per the rulebook page 14

If a model has a 4+ armor save and a 5+ rerollable cover save, can the player choose which save to use?
Answer: The one that is most advantageous to the model, given the situation, defenders choice.

Does a Terminator Sergeant (with the same wargear) count as identical to the regular Terminators in his unit for the purpose of wound allocation?
Answer: If everything about him is the same in every game sense, including LD and special abilities etc… then he would not be different in game terms. A different name or separate stat line is a distinction that makes no difference in game terms. So yes he would be identical in that scenario, as would any similar situation where the only game difference is the name.

Can a unit falling directly backwards that is out of coherency use its run move to move back into coherency?
Answer: Yes per the FAQ. Run is not a Fall Back Move, and only requires movement towards the board edge. The proviso is that any models moving to do so must end absolutely no farther from the board edge than when they started.


USR Rules
Does Feel No Pain work when a model is “removed” instead of killed via normal wounding, such as with Crowe’s Heroic Sacrifice or Fabius Biles Rod of Torment and other removal effects?
Answer: No. Feel no Pain is only against unsaved wounds per the BRB. As there is no wounding, just removal, Feel no Pain would be ineffective.

Can models with the Rage ignore enemies that a line cannot be drawn from their eyes to the model?
Answer: Yes. Line of sight is always from the perspective of the firing/moving/assaulting model, though turning your models to face another way will not work!

Must units with Rage when moving towards an enemy move every model in the unit as closes as possible?
Answer: Unfortunately yes. The intent seems clear. They are all quite mad. So when disembarking, give some thought to how you want the formation to be, for purposes of blasts and such, as this makes you susceptible to them after disembarking and moving in a clump! Terrain may force them apart but generally speaking they must rush as hard and fast as they can at the enemy. Nothing is faster than a straight line.

Vehicle Questions:
Can you use searchlights if your weapons were destroyed or stunned/shaken or potentially out of range?
Answer: Searchlights must roll for Night Fight Distance separately from the weapons and if successful, then the unit doing the search-lighting and the unit it illuminated are no longer protected by Night Fighting. Searchlights are not weapons, but they DO target enemies in the shooting phase. Since that is essentially the ability you lose when shaken or stunned (the gun is fine, you just got jarred and need to get back in the gunners chairs) it seems intuitive that if you cannot target weapons, targeting in general is probably impaired. So though the text does not specifically say one way or the other and we acknowledge that, our judgement call will be to exclude the use of Searchlights when stunned or shaken.

Can a vehicle drive/walk through a ruin with solid walls.
Answer: yes, though not buildings. They are different.

Can pivoting vehicles provide extra inches of movement:
Unfortunately this has been allowed in almost all tournies and is sold as tactica on the internet. But here is how the book actually reads:
...“for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull”
...“Turning does not reduce the vehicle’s move. This means that a vehicle may combine forward and reverse movement in the same turn providing it does not exceed its maximum move.”
Not reducing the vehicles movement is what most people hinge their argument on. They are not acknowledging that ‘not reducing” is not an invitation to increase it in the very same place in the rules. The rules go to lengths to tell you how to move a vehicle properly so it is not gaining free movement.on page 12 and they tell you that’s why they are taking pains to illustrate it.
I believe the intent here is not to allow the pivot move to increase total movement. Therefore, as long as no part of the model exceeds the movement you declared at the end of its movement phase, you should be within the intent of the rules.

Large Oval Based creatures/Vehicles: how do we adjudicate their entry from reserves etc…?
Answer: Text wall time. They will be destroyed per the FAQ if terrain or other reasons stops them from being able to land safely and completely(wings and all) onto the board and their total movement will determine how many weapons they can fire which unfortunately because of its size will probably be only 1 weapon on the round it comes in.
The base itself determines what, if any terrain it must deal with but otherwise the wings and all are all part of the hull as the main book FAQ states and can be targeted for all purposes. Unlike other vehicles, you can and often must end movement under its hull, friend or foe alike. Page 71 says that you may assault the hull, the base or both. So you must use a straight edge to figure the point to which the enemy must charge if not already under it. Likewise, enemies cannot come within 1” of the oval base except when assaulting but can be within 1” of the rest of it. Contesting and controlling objectives is measured from the oval base. Ramming would be to the skimmer hull. One can also tank shock all the way to the oval base if not ramming.
This is a very awkward model from a rules standpoint and requires some ruling just so people know what to do ahead of time. As there isn’t really an adequate FAQ, this is what we will do for our tournament.


IC Questions
Does an IC get their special move from jet packs or bike as examples, if leaving a squad that has none of those during the movement phase?
Answer: Yes.

Dark Eldar Rules
Do Webway Portal Marker from GW provide cover?
Answer: Yes. Literal Line of sight calls for it to provide LOS blocking cover.


Space Marine(s) Rules
Drop pods? How do we deal with them?
Answer: anywhere from its hull, including the fins, which are part of the hull, but not including the blast doors that come open. They are blown out and effectively have no game effect. Step all over them if you want to.
As the doors are gone, if the model has been glued shut for ease of use/aesthetics, just treat it as providing cover when firing through it, but if will not block LOS completely in that case as it is simply too hard to adjudicate whether it would or wouldn’t have, had the doors been off as they are supposed to be.

Tyranid Rules
Can we have a clearer explanation with a Hive Guard's impaler cannon vs Cover.
Answer: the simple answer is this: if the target is physically in cover, they get a cover save. If they are not physically in cover, they do not. Wargear and such will not work. Only actual cover.

Cleansing Flame vs. Hypnotic Gaze: Cleansing Flame is a melee attack (per the FAQ) that happens before blows are struck. Hypnotic gaze is not a blow AND is done before ANY attacks are done. Hypnotic Gaze would trump attacks of any kind. Ergo, Hypnotic gaze would happen before Cleansing Flame.


Necron Rules:
How do sweep attacks work? That is, what does "moves over" mean? Can I move 18" over the top of the enemy squad, move back 1" (in the exact direction that I came) and still get the 3 attacks?
Answer: Yes, you can take your attacks. There is no distance requirement, nor a requirement that you not double back for that matter nor even a directional requirement. Generally you must not end where you started to be considered to have moved however.

Can you take a wound off the overlord to prevent a Catacomb Command Barge from becoming immobilized by moving flat out into dangerous terrain etc...?
Answer: Assuming you have more than one wound, yes. The rule is specific that it can be used for any immobilized or weapon destroyed result. That an immobilized result WOULD destroy the Command Barge does not change the proximate cause, which was immobilization.

If you go first can you deploy Deathmarks and mark an enemy unit even though your opponent hasn't deployed yet?
Answer: No. Hunters from Hyperspace is triggered by the deployment of the Deathmarks.



Does the Storm Lord's lightning go away if he dies or is not on the board?
Answer: The rule says that if you include him in your army, the power goes off. So no. His unlife or death is immaterial.


Sweeping Advance vs Ever Living: Ever-living works even after a sweeping advance.

Royal Court: Royal Court members who are allocated to a unit become part of that force organization and are treated in every way as an upgrade character for the unit from then on. So long as they live, their unit is not considered destroyed even if they are the only one alive in it.. The ydo not revert back to being an HQ slot if that happens.

Grey Knight Rules:
Crowes Sword and cleansing flame:
Cleansing Flame does not benefit from his swords Rending ability. The sword is pretty clearly the thing doing the Rending.

What order are Necron Mindshackle scarabs vs. The Perfect Warrior ability of Grey Knights resolved?
Answer: The Grey Knight announces which stance he will take and then the Necron Mindshackle Scarabs take effect. Don't forget: Mindshackle scarabs affect a random model so the Brother Captain may or may not regret his caution!

How do you resolve multiple cleansing flames at the same time?
Answer: If multiple Cleansings occur, they occur at the same time. Ergo, if three cleansing flames went off on a ten man squad you would place 3 dice next to each soldier, and then roll for them for each figure. Saves as normal. The power works on individual models and not units.

Cleansing Flame vs. Hypnotic Gaze: Cleansing Flame is a melee attack (per the FAQ) that happens before blows are struck. Hypnotic gaze is not a blow AND is done before ANY attacks are done. Hypnotic Gaze would trump attacks of any kind. Ergo, Hypnotic gaze would happen before Cleansing Flame.

Are GK vehicles counted as psykers? (i.e. for culexus or other effects)
Answer: Yes. As it states in their rules, the vehicle is a Mastery Level 1 psyker that treats a Perils of the Warp attack as a Glancing hit.

If you mindstrike missle a squad of GK’s, do they all take 1 perils test collectively or does each model hit take a test?
The FAQ says that each Psyker underneath the template will be affected by Psi-shock. The special rule for GK says that the unit “counts as a single Psyker”. Therefore when hit with a Mindstrike Missile, as it is a unit, “a single Psyker” is hit. The rules on page 21 specify which model in the unit must take the Psi-shock, but it would be only one of them that takes it.

Vindicare Assassin penetration: it is 3+4D6, Rending. Obviously, when in the arc of the Eldar Energy Fields on Wave Serpents, it stops him from using any but 3+d6.

Chaos Rules:
Boon of Mutation: does it single out a model or can the enemy allocate who is mutated?
Answer: the model who failed the characteristic test is mutated.



Orc Rulez
Can doc grotz give a cybork body to dreads?
Answer: No. Lol. But that would be awesome.


Cleansing Flame vs. Hypnotic Gaze: Cleansing Flame is a melee attack (per the FAQ) that happens before blows are struck. Hypnotic gaze is not a blow AND is done before ANY attacks are done. Hypnotic Gaze would trump attacks of any kind. Ergo, Hypnotic gaze would happen before Cleans

Jancoran wrote:Vehicle Questions:
Can you use searchlights if your weapons were destroyed or stunned/shaken or potentially out of range?
Answer: Searchlights must roll for Night Fight Distance separately from the weapons and if successful, then the unit doing the search-lighting and the unit it illuminated are no longer protected by Night Fighting. Searchlights are not weapons, but they DO target enemies in the shooting phase. Since that is essentially the ability you lose when shaken or stunned (the gun is fine, you just got jarred and need to get back in the gunners chairs) it seems intuitive that if you cannot target weapons, targeting in general is probably impaired. So though the text does not specifically say one way or the other and we acknowledge that, our judgement call will be to exclude the use of Searchlights when stunned or shaken.

Just a note on this, Jancoran - the contention is usually over whether searchlight equipped vehicles can use them when they can't fire for other reasons - particularly things that give them cover. (Moving flat-out, popping smoke, etc.) It's not clear from this wording whether any situation prohibiting firing also prohibits searchlight usage.

Shameless plug: I play a Necron night-fight list. Searchlights, now that people are becoming familiar with their use, have rendered pure night-fight lists "very challenging". The searchlight equipped armies can concentrate firepower while only risking a transport. If every searchlight transport, Vendetta, and scout sentinel also gets the equivalent of PotMS allowing it to light while moving flat-out, it'll be a balance problem. (Particularly as Necrons are hampered by night vision range limitations more than most codices.)

Can IG Storm Troopers use Airborne Assault when using a Valkyrie's Grav-Chute Insertion?

More generally, how does the phrase, "as if," affect how a rule is handled.

Randall Turner wrote:
Just a note on this, Jancoran - It's not clear from this wording whether any situation prohibiting firing also prohibits searchlight usage.

Shameless plug: I play a Necron night-fight list. Searchlights, now that people are becoming familiar with their use, have rendered pure night-fight lists "very challenging". The searchlight equipped armies can concentrate firepower while only risking a transport. If every searchlight transport, Vendetta, and scout sentinel also gets the equivalent of PotMS allowing it to light while moving flat-out, it'll be a balance problem. (Particularly as Necrons are hampered by night vision range limitations more than most codices.)

I see what you are saying. I feel like, since it's not a weapon, just like smoke launchers aren't a weapon, that their use is fairly simple and it's obvious they aren't governed by the rules for normal weapons. one has to extrapolate a bit. I don't think I would rule them as weapons unable to fire when moving flat out etc... A searchlight needs to be manned and Shaken/Stunned results certainly end in that not being the case and people trying to get back off the floor and into their gunners cockpits again. But a Searchlight, just from moving, seems like as long as there is someone to man it, it should have no problems.

So as inconvenient as that is for the Necrons, it probably won't be the reason a necron lost. But i absolutely understand the argument you're talking about a little better. Thansk for the insight. No one brought that to my attention before now.

SIDENOTE: Necrons just won the TSHFT Invitational Championship. They are strong.

Necrons have won the vast majority of the GTs so far this year.

Oh, and if Jancoran wants, he can go to see all of the controversial necron stuff:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Kitzz%27s_Comprehensive_Necron_FAQ

Kitzz wrote:Necrons have won the vast majority of the GTs so far this year.

Oh, and if Jancoran wants, he can go to see all of the controversial necron stuff:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Kitzz%27s_Comprehensive_Necron_FAQ

They're not using night-fight lists though, Kitzz. Except for Norbu with that weird Tremorcron list, which you could argue was b/c it included Imotekh. Ben, the TSHFT champ, is running a double Solar Pulse list - and his opponent in the championship game admitted he'd never played a 5th ed. Necron army before. (Not that it would matter for this situation - he was using a DE army, the ones that are scary under this interpretation are GK Coteaz Razorback-spam lists ala the Adepticon winner.) Bottom line is searchlights are already very, very good. My entire problem now is finding ways to kill them even without cruise speed/flat out ability.

Kitzz wrote:Necrons have won the vast majority of the GTs so far this year.

Oh, and if Jancoran wants, he can go to see all of the controversial necron stuff:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Kitzz%27s_Comprehensive_Necron_FAQ

You should really put far, far larger disclaimers on your so-called "FAQ". Especially as it seems you have ruled every controversial rule to benefit Necrons and make absolutely no mention of the controversy in any of the rulings.

One example being that you claim Anrakyr can use MitM while embarked on CBC, even though it is obvious after the latest BRB FAQ he cannot do it.
Either:
1) Open-topped vehicles have firing points and the FAQ applies. MitM doesn't work.
2) Open-topped vehicles have no firing points. Rules only give permission to make shooting attacks out of open-topped vehicles. No permission is given to draw LOS for special rules for embarked units in open-topped transports and therefore MitM doesn't work.
So only two options, neither of them allows to use MitM embarked and you rule that it can still be used?

It's shame that people will probably read it and think that your "rulings" are the accepted definitions.
If you actually want to make it useful, check the controversial rulings. Give reasoning for your viewpoint and also present the other viewpoint (for example, EL vs SA).