Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Melissia wrote:

Fezman wrote:I do agree that the Imperium would last longer with just the Guard than it would with just the Astartes

Without the Guard, the Imperium would crumble instantly.

Indeed, if anything I was putting it mildly. I'd say the Imperium doesn't necessarily need the Astartes to survive (though they're very powerful allies, and i don't doubt that certain Imperial planets have only been held because of them), but it needs the Guard.

Henners91 wrote:In both settings we have prominent members of a warrior caste who actually did a minority of the fighting, yet capture our imaginations. Peasants/Ashigaru did the majority of the killing and dying and yet they'd never have been honoured anywhere near as much as a Knight.

Good point.



As stated above I think the combined might of the Guard would beat the combined Marines, but really that isn't saying much for the Guard, as they'd win through sheer weight of numbers. What about a confrontation between a particular Guard regiment and a Chapter or company thereof? The problem with such a scenario is inconsistent fluff, as writers can't seem to agree on whether one Space Marine can take on an army with his arm blown off or if a single lucky shot can bring one down.

Vaktathi wrote:Because they face unimagineably vast hordes of horrors invading across fronts of tens of thousands of light years and alien empires attacking everywhere, and dissent from within necessitating a constant state of total war.

Which is equally applicable to the Astartes.

Plot armor primarily, there's that disconnect I mentioned earlier.

No. There's only so much accountability you can palm off with plot armour, and it certainly isn't enough to give it primacy. There's also the fact that a Marine is, literally, a superman. He is a superior soldier to a Guardsman in every possible way. I'd say that has more to do with it, rather than a few inconsistancies and overindulgences found in some of the fluff.

Primarily because the writers don't write them as they actually describe them. If they were constantly in battle as they are described, with the casualties they are portrayed as sustaining (even if its just a guy or two in each squad every other time they go out), all the Space Marines would be dead within a couple of standard earth years, especially given the way new SM's are recruited and the manner in which many chapters go about doing this.

This is equally applicable to the IG as well, if they were constantly thrown away in thousands of meat-grinder battles across thousands of worlds as they are described, they'd soon all be dead. However, we accept, as part of the setting, that the IoM simply breed fast enough, or through use of factories churning out test-tube babies at a sufficient rate, that they can keep up with constant demand (16+ years in advance). Once we've accepted that, is it really too much of a stretch that each Chapter is capable of ensuring a similar state of constant resupply with vastly smaller units (each Chapter is only accountable for their own) and over a longer time period? I don't think so.

If they increased the number of Space Marines, they'd make a lot more sense. As is, they're too small a fighting force relative to the IG and relative to the area they have to cover and opponents they have to face to really make sense and having the impact that they do in the fluff. 1 million in a galaxy is like having one SAS Commando or 1 Navy Seal to defeat the Chinese People's Liberation Army and conquer all of China.

And there's that problem with bringing too much reality into it that I mentioned earlier. As soon as you try to measure a fantasy world by our own paramaters, you're doing it wrong. It doesn't matter if it makes little sense that so little Marines could have that much relevancy in the galaxy... by our logistical standards - they're just written that way because they can be. It's as simple as that.

Anfauglir wrote:
This is equally applicable to the IG as well, if they were constantly thrown away in thousands of meat-grinder battles across thousands of worlds as they are described, they'd soon all be dead. However, we accept, as part of the setting, that the IoM simply breed fast enough, or through use of factories churning out test-tube babies at a sufficient rate, that they can keep up with constant demand (16+ years in advance). Once we've accepted that, is it really too much of a stretch that each Chapter is capable of ensuring a similar state of constant resupply with vastly smaller units (each Chapter is only accountable for their own) and over a longer time period? I don't think so.

The Imperium has hive worlds with populations literally in the hundreds of billions. The recruitment rates given by GW are laughably low, but adjustment of that upwards would yield numbers that would allow for the expenditure of IG in the aforementioned meat grinder battles, without any recourse to test-tube babies.

By contrast, the recruitment method described for Chapters is generally harvesting a handful of feral children from low population density primitive worlds. Given the portrayal of Marine casualties, such an "artisan" approach cannot explain how Chapters are able to maintain their numbers unless they engage in combat far less frequently than described. Nor is it as simple as just saying "recruit more children" because low population primitive worlds can only yield up so many fit children each generation before their own population becomes impacted.

Iracundus wrote:The recruitment rates given by GW are laughably low, but adjustment of that upwards would yield numbers that would allow for the expenditure of IG in the aforementioned meat grinder battles, without any recourse to test-tube babies.

Exactly, when you look at the numbers from a real-world logistical angle, it's laughable across the board, which is why everything stated and discussed is equally applicable to both IG and SM. These hive worlders are hardly the crème de la crème of human soldiery. Astartes are. That's the difference to off-shoot the low numbers. Besides, even drafting in hive worlders in to replace the dead and dying doesn't account for training and equipment. There comes a point where you just have to turn off and accept that the IoM will have what they need, wherever and whenever they need it. The nature of the hobby makes it so.

By contrast, the recruitment method described for Chapters is generally harvesting a handful of feral children from low population density primitive worlds. Given the portrayal of Marine casualties, such an "artisan" approach cannot explain how Chapters are able to maintain their numbers

Nor does it really need explaining. Not in such specific and realistic paramaters. It's fantasy.

Nor is it as simple as just saying "recruit more children" because low population primitive worlds can only yield up so many fit children each generation before their own population becomes impacted.

Two solutions, both easily and readily applicable: a) you don't need to take more children from the same low population worlds in a galaxy that can (and does) always have more worlds around the corner, and b) Marines, once fully trained and equipped, are simply skilled enough and durable enough to make back that investment in time - outlasting a hive worlder ten-fold.

Anfauglir wrote:
Exactly, when you look at the numbers from a real-world logistical angle, it's laughable across the board, which is why everything stated and discussed is equally applicable to both IG and SM. These hive worlders are hardly the crème de la crème of human soldiery. Astartes are. That's the difference to off-shoot the low numbers. Besides, even drafting in hive worlders in to replace the dead and dying doesn't account for training and equipment. There comes a point where you just have to turn off and accept that the IoM will have what they need, wherever and whenever they need it. The nature of the hobby makes it so.

The recruits from hive worlds often come from the violent criminal underbelly of hives. When hive worlds have populations in the hundreds of billions, this violent layer that can be recruited from would itself amount in the hundreds of millions to billions.

Hive worlds are also major manufacturing centers. Armageddon was supposedly one of the chief Chimera production centers in its sector for example. Training and equipping such numbers would be less of an issue than on other worlds.

Two solutions, both easily and readily applicable: a) you don't need to take more children from the same low population worlds in a galaxy that can (and does) always have more worlds around the corner, and b) Marines, once fully trained and equipped, are simply skilled enough and durable enough to make back that investment in time - outlasting a hive worlder ten-fold.

Worlds are not always just around the corner. That is itself the reason why the Imperium values taking worlds by assault instead of just bombarding. The only way the Marines could make up their numbers given casualty rates would be if they also recruited children en masse from hive worlds, not the primitive feral worlds.

And as others have stated, even if a Marine were worth 10 IG, it STILL would make no difference in the overall scheme because a 10:1 ratio is insignificant on the scale of the conflicts and galaxy that 40K is supposed to be taking place in.

purplefood wrote:It's not a play on words...

It was a play on words, most definitely, even if you did not intend it. By the time we've finished reading the first line we're thinking of the Guardsmen crushing the Marines through weight of numbers with all their guns, tanks & so on, then you dash that apart by referring to them literally crushing the Marines with their weight in the second sentence. A pun, a play on words.

GW <3 SM=Short answer

Long Answer= SM are the elite humans opposed to the IG, the IG is pretty much the modern military in the future. SM are the ones you call for special missions, IG is what they use to form massive planetary invasions. IG is the bread and SM are the butter. The standard IG squad has worse statistics and when you compare IG 10 man squad to a SM 10 man squad the SM have better stats. Also while the IG is very extensive they don't have as many cool ICs.

Hope this helps.

It would be like if Captain America's unit ever exist, they would be like SMs and the army etc would be like guard. This is because in 40k joining the guard/pdf etc is just like joining the army and becoming a marine is like becoming captain america.

Anfauglir wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Because they face unimagineably vast hordes of horrors invading across fronts of tens of thousands of light years and alien empires attacking everywhere, and dissent from within necessitating a constant state of total war.

Which is equally applicable to the Astartes.

Except the Astartes aren't required to fight. They are designed to fight, but they can pick and choose if/when/where they want to fight. They pretty much do everything at will, and require an obscene amount of resources relative to IG forces (SM's usually have their own world which doesn't provide troops to the IG, they must be supplied and maintained much more extensively through much different supply lines, etc)

No. There's only so much accountability you can palm off with plot armour, and it certainly isn't enough to give it primacy. There's also the fact that a Marine is, literally, a superman. He is a superior soldier to a Guardsman in every possible way. I'd say that has more to do with it, rather than a few inconsistancies and overindulgences found in some of the fluff.

I'm not discounting that they are superhuman, only that, unless taken to ridiculous exaggerated levels and then multiplied by entire orders of magnitude more from there, their superhuman nature in and of itself simply would not have the effect it's often described as having. Yeah, it's cool that SM's have superfast reflexes, amazing armor, and powerful guns. It's not going to save them from an artillery shell, an energy weapon blast, saturation fire from heavy automatic cannon, landmines capable of destroying battle tanks, aircraft bombs, orbital bombardments, etc. and even with all their superhuman abilities they aren't completely immune to small arms fire (though yes damn near), if they take a bullet through the neck, eye, etc, a Space Marine can die like any man even in his armor. Support weapons like those are what generally cause the majority of casualties in wartime, and SM's aren't much better off than basic humans are aside from being nigh immune to shrapnel.

This is equally applicable to the IG as well, if they were constantly thrown away in thousands of meat-grinder battles across thousands of worlds as they are described, they'd soon all be dead.

Only some are however, they aren't all treated like this. Many regiments spend years, decades, centuries, etc. away from battle fronts in garrison duties/training/refit/etc. And it takes a lot less time and resources to train, equip and deploy a Guardsmen. A guardsmen can be drafted as a young teenager and fielded in battle weeks later with minimal investment and simple equipment. An Astartes must be honed over years, decades, and takes an order of magnitude more resources to equip, and he dies just as easily as that guardsmen to many common heavy weapons (e.g. a Space Marine isn't going to survive a heavy artillery shell, an orbital bombardment, a missile barrage, plasma fire, etc any better than a guardsmen will, and these weapons are commonplace). It is really only against lighter weapons (which traditionally do not inflict the majority of casualties in active combat operations) that the Astartes is markedly superior in terms of survivability.

However, we accept, as part of the setting, that the IoM simply breed fast enough, or through use of factories churning out test-tube babies at a sufficient rate, that they can keep up with constant demand (16+ years in advance). Once we've accepted that, is it really too much of a stretch that each Chapter is capable of ensuring a similar state of constant resupply with vastly smaller units (each Chapter is only accountable for their own) and over a longer time period? I don't think so.

Given the way they are described, no we can't. Often SM's will only return like every 10 years to recruit, or they'd recruit 1 or 2 guys at a time that happened to impress them in primitive battles, and In that time they'd be extirpated if fighting any real wars. If involved in fighting anything of the intensity of the great wars of the 20th century, even assuming their casualty rate was say, 200x less than a normal human troops would sustain, chapters would find themselves dead in months. When the Dark Angels landed on Vraks, a third of the chapter died, if they sustained even a tenth of that casualty rate in other operations, the chapter would be extinct in years given the way SM chapters are described as recruiting. Keep in mind, SM's usually fight only the most intense battles. If they sustain 10% casualties, they'd reach the point of combat ineffectiveness (where they lose enough generalists that specialists have to fill in the gaps or they lose enough specialists that they can't do certain things or they just lose enough guys that they can't cover enough ground/angles/etc to fight effectively) in 4 or 5 missions, after which they'd likely be wiped out in 1 or 2 more after that it they continued (this is backed up not only by analysis of historical combat, but gameplay as well, it's a quite natural progression of things that units, no matter how powerful or superior, start to become nonfunctional in their intended roles at about 50-60% strength very quickly)

And there's that problem with bringing too much reality into it that I mentioned earlier. As soon as you try to measure a fantasy world by our own paramaters, you're doing it wrong. It doesn't matter if it makes little sense that so little Marines could have that much relevancy in the galaxy... by our logistical standards - they're just written that way because they can be. It's as simple as that.

I wasn't trying to directly equate them to our own world, only give a metaphor. There just aren't enough marines to be everywhere they need to be to do the jobs they'd be tasked with. 1000 marines may be powerful, but they can't cover a front of 500 kilometers, they cannot engage an enemy in dozens of places at once in anything but token strength which would be highly susceptible to flukes of luck or destruction by just a couple of heavy weapons strikes, etc.


In the end, we have a situation where, even by GW's own flat statements in codex books, we have millions of guardsmen per Space Marine, with each Space Marine being worth ~10 guardsmen according to Rogal Dorn. Even expounding on that a thousand fold, making the silly assertion that each space marine can consistently be worth 10,000 Guardsmen (An entire regiment, two even!), the Space Marines still wouldn't be worth even 1% of the military value of the IG, and if we don't expound to ridiculous levels, their massed might is measured in equality only to a few hours of daily IG recruitment at best. That's where we're at fundamentally. They're just too few in number to be relevant on the greater galactic stage without plot armor.

I just find it more amazing that the necessity for the SM is weighed against the guard like its nothing. On an amazing scale you have the IG fighting on multiple fronts that pretty much impossible for the SM to mirror in any facet.

In a realistic sense you have a very large army that has a high chance at overwhelming any force it comes against with negligible losses if you really wanted to and on the other hand you have a very comparably small army that is encountering losses that do impact its overall effectiveness but are able to fight in a more versatile fashion that makes this negligible. Whose more important now?

IG.

SM's would definatly put up a good fight, killing countless guardsmen. However, yes 10 guardsmen are inferior to 10 SM's, but it will never be like that, it will be more like a hundred SM to much, much many guardsmen. The wargear and weapons of the SM's are also superior, but yet again, the guard will defeat them with a storm of las-shots and. And 'cool' IC's don't win the war, soldiers and tanks do.

You can throw many more Guardsmen at the SM, then you can throw SM's at the guardsmen. Simply a matter of time.

I play SM and I didn't know this topic had so much to it.

Iracundus wrote: The only way the Marines could make up their numbers given casualty rates

What casualty rates? Speculating like this is really a waste of time if we don't have at least ballpark figures for the rates at which Astartes need to be replaced, and the rates at which recruits are killed during the recruitment process.

And as others have stated, even if a Marine were worth 10 IG, it STILL would make no difference in the overall scheme because a 10:1 ratio is insignificant on the scale of the conflicts and galaxy that 40K is supposed to be taking place in.

All of the marines in the Imperium can fit in a world.

It would take several systems with several planets each to hold even a fraction of the entire Imperial Guard, they number in the TRILLIONS...

Kaldor wrote:

Iracundus wrote: The only way the Marines could make up their numbers given casualty rates

What casualty rates? Speculating like this is really a waste of time if we don't have at least ballpark figures for the rates at which Astartes need to be replaced, and the rates at which recruits are killed during the recruitment process.

It is not entirely speculation. We have some idea of major engagements where a Chapter can be entirely destroyed or lose a significant portion of its strength in one campaign (10% at least).

For example, in just the latest Necron Codex for starters, we see in the section on Orikan (p. 57 Necron Codex), that Orikan engineers the destruction of the Silver Skulls 4th Company. In the timeline on p.26, the Silver Skulls attempt to take revenge but are bogged down, and lose a battle barge and their Chapter Master. We know from the BFG rulebook that an average Chapter only has 2-3 Battle Barges maximum. On p. 27, we have the complete destruction of the Emperor's Swords. On p. 21, we have the description of the assault and conquest of Uttu Prime and the failed intervention by Imperial Fists. The description of lascannon and multi-melta fire as well as assault squads shows this is a significant Imperial Fist presence, and not just a single squad or 2 as might be assigned to one of the SM rapid strke craft. It sounds more like a battle company. This force is effectively wiped out, which means a 10% loss of the Imperial Fists' total strength.

It is not simply loss of personnel but also loss of equipment. The equipment of the Marines is not exactly mass produced on an assembly line, but is artisan forged, and supply of battle barges is going to be even more limited.

As for the training time of a Marine, we have the numbers given in the old Space Marine novel by Ian Watson, it is almost 5 years from the time of first recruitment to when the initiates are able to fight their first battle as a Scout (p. 72, Space Marine).

500,000 marines, no matter how skilled, trained and tough they may be compared to normal humans, could not win a fight against trillions upon trillions of guardsmen.

shrike wrote:500,000 marines, no matter how skilled, trained and tough they may be compared to normal humans, could not win a fight against trillions upon trillions of guardsmen.

and Battle Tanks, APCs, Artillery, Super Heavy tanks, Walkers, etc that also are numberless and carry enough firepower to make a Predator seem like a toy.

Aye, that too.

shrike wrote:500,000 marines, no matter how skilled, trained and tough they may be compared to normal humans, could not win a fight against trillions upon trillions of guardsmen.

They can if they teleport Terminator strike forces directly into dozens of HQ bunkers, then teleport out again and issue a demand for surrender.

Thats the thing that Astartes are designed for. Not getting boots on the ground and kicking the enemies teeth in, but forcing the enemy to surrender or crippling their ability to resist. Ten billion soldiers are of no use at all if the enemy does not have to engage them.

Ah, but this is talking about straight-up open warfare, marines on one side, guard on the other, and nothing in between. No tactics, no cover, no orbital assets, just both sides hitting each other. Strategically, space marines would win.

Anfauglir wrote:No. There's only so much accountability you can palm off with plot armour, and it certainly isn't enough to give it primacy. There's also the fact that a Marine is, literally, a superman. He is a superior soldier to a Guardsman in every possible way.

And yet he, too, still dies to a single plasmagun shot.

shrike wrote:Strategically, space marines would win.

Space Marines couldn't even kill off a thousandth of the total number of Guardsmen.

And if they did that would be a tremendous feat worthy of legend.

There are a million loyalist Astartes in total, or thereabouts (lots of depleted chapters, but also a few relatively large chapters making up the difference). Guard deploys millions (plural!) of soldiers as part of a single wave of deployment in major combat zones. And the Guard does this for decades at a time, deploying new waves of guardsmen multiple times in a year.

If every single Marine had a kill ratio of one thousand guardsmen before he was taken down-- and this is unlikely to begin with-- the Guard would still win easily and still be able to have enough forces to defend the Imperium with.

Don't forget the Imperial Navy, also a crucial part to the Imperium. Those Guardsmen need to get off world -somehow-.

Also Guard win hands down. Their are just not enough Astartes to take on trillions of infantrymen and millions of tanks.

Melissia wrote:

shrike wrote:Strategically, space marines would win.

Space Marines couldn't even kill off a thousandth of the total number of Guardsmen.

And if they did that would be a tremendous feat worthy of legend.

As in, as said, they could hold the leaders hostage.

The Imperial Navy could also wipe the floor with the Astartes navy due to sheer size and superior firepower. The Astartes would have to give up on troop strength on the ground to actually be able to have any offensive ability in space, after all.

shrike wrote:As in, as said, they could hold the leaders hostage.

Wouldn't really help much.

"The Astartes are holding me hostage, and wish for you to surrender. And so I have contacted you asking you but one thing: Artillery barrage on my position, hold nothing back."

Melissia wrote:And yet he, too, still dies to a single plasmagun shot.

It's a good job I'm not arguing otherwise then.

The Space Marines don't have a snowballs chance in hell of doing any significant or lasting impact on the Imperial Guard.

Anyone who honeslty thinks that they can "do X or Y and win" is seriously blowing the abilities of Space Marines out of proportion, and probably has the mindset that guardsmen are worthless and only good for dying. And then there are those who will argue with that last sentence. They say ignorance is bliss.

So if IG are really the backbone of the Imperium, why do the SM have as much support as they do Instead of funding the IG more? I under stand that SM are special forces team but why not just send the guard to wipe out an ork WAAAGH or Tyranid Hive fleet?

Dayvuni wrote:So if IG are really the backbone of the Imperium, why do the SM have as much support as they do Instead of funding the IG more? I under stand that SM are special forces team but why not just send the guard to wipe out an ork WAAAGH or Tyranid Hive fleet?

Normally the best way to take down such a large force is cutting off the head- ork warlords or tyranid hive tyrants- which space marines excel at. In such cases, you need the "scalpel" of the space marines, not the "sledgehammer" of the guard.

shrike wrote:

Dayvuni wrote:So if IG are really the backbone of the Imperium, why do the SM have as much support as they do Instead of funding the IG more? I under stand that SM are special forces team but why not just send the guard to wipe out an ork WAAAGH or Tyranid Hive fleet?

Normally the best way to take down such a large force is cutting off the head- ork warlords or tyranid hive tyrants- which space marines excel at. In such cases, you need the "scalpel" of the space marines, not the "sledgehammer" of the guard.

Don't forget that Space Marines vary rarely engage in large battles without support from the Guard. The Imperium DOES send the guard to wipe out ork WAAGHs and stop Hive Fleets. Where are you getting the idea that the Guard don't do those things? I suppose you think that the Space Marines are sent to "wipe out" hive fleets because the Ultramarines defense of Macragge from a Tyranid Splinter Fleet. First, they were not sent there, they are defending their homeworld. Second, they barely were able to repulse the Splinter Fleet (IE smaller than a hive fleet).

A Space Marines Chapter doesn't have the numbers or support to defeat a sizable WAAGH completely by themselves. That's why the Guard anchor a position and the Marines (when they are able to be bothered to support the Guard) strike into the WAAAGH's heart. Otherwise, the Guard just charge in and eventually put down the Orks. Same thing with the Tyranids. The Hive Fleets in the galaxy now are held in check pretty much solely by the Guard. It's fairly clear that you have bought in to the whole idea of the Guard being worthless and the Marines being the saviors of mankind and all that crap.

Don't get me wrong, I love Space Marines, and the Horus Heresy novels. I just don't think it's fair for people to put down the Guard in such a way.

Ignatius wrote:
A Space Marines Chapter doesn't have the numbers or support to defeat a sizable WAAGH completely by themselves. That's why the Guard anchor a position and the Marines (when they are able to be bothered to support the Guard) strike into the WAAAGH's heart. Otherwise, the Guard just charge in and eventually put down the Orks. Same thing with the Tyranids. The Hive Fleets in the galaxy now are held in check pretty much solely by the Guard. It's fairly clear that you have bought in to the whole idea of the Guard being worthless and the Marines being the saviors of mankind and all that crap.

Don't get me wrong, I love Space Marines, and the Horus Heresy novels. I just don't think it's fair for people to put down the Guard in such a way.

The problem with the guard is their commanders. SM are usually sent to reinforced IGs offensive when the Lord generals leading said assaults are incompetent. These generals are the ones making the guard look bad. When the earthshaker platform finally make a breach in a wall, sending a million guardsmen into it trying to overrun the opponent, when it doesnt work, they send 2 million, etc. When these Lord Generals are in need, the SMs are sent as reinforcments...

If there were more Generals that thought like in the Dan Abnett books or like in storm of Iron (chaos vs guard, the guard there were pretty good fighters despite being attacked by an Iron Warrior Legion), the guard would be less looked down on.

So overall, usually, SMs commander (captains and such) are usually more sound tactically because they don't see their forces as an edless supply of insects... Like a lot of Generals in the Guard do...