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So if a conflict like this ever jumped off and every loyalist chapter banded together against the IG the chances of the Space Marines winning are still pretty low.
In light of this, how come the IG are not as respected as the astartes? I mean in my opinion if you take away the Guard the IoM is basically done for but if you take away the Space Marines the IoM can still mantain.

Fluffwise, I think the Guard aren't viewed with as much awe as the Space Marines because the Space Marines are pretty rare and distant, and presumably have a lot of tales told about them, so they take on a near-mythic status. Maybe the Guard are seen as too commonplace and too much a part of daily life, to be particularly remarkable.

Add to that the fact that the Space Marines get the more high-profile missions - they teleport in with their advanced weaponry and ancient technology and kill the enemy commander and his elite bodyguards before anyone realises what's happening while the Guard slog through mud for weeks. Don't forget also that in the background Marines are able to live up to their reputation with their prowess and many augementations.

I do agree that the Imperium would last longer with just the Guard than it would with just the Astartes but really I think they are both play major roles, just with different areas of expertise. The Guard can take care of drawn-out conflicts (though they have troops able to handle "special forces" type missions when the OTT power of the Astartes isn't necessary) while the Astartes can have more of a narrow and specialised focus.

Russ Mandarin wrote:So if a conflict like this ever jumped off and every loyalist chapter banded together against the IG the chances of the Space Marines winning are still pretty low.
In light of this, how come the IG are not as respected as the astartes? I mean in my opinion if you take away the Guard the IoM is basically done for but if you take away the Space Marines the IoM can still mantain.

Because of human psychology. People tend to look up to, idolize, and/or fear individual superhumans and the feats they accomplish as individuals. The accomplishments of masses of men and equipment by contrast are more impersonal and abstract even if they are actually greater in scale.

I'm pretty sure the entire world could take out the Royal Marines, doesn't stop them being hard bastards.
Similarly for space marines. They're outnumbered trillions to one by everyone else, doesn't stop them being badass.

If they dont win, Marines would take a great deal of the IG with 'em.

Mostly due psychological and morale factors, as Iracundus said, mortal men will fight them with fear at first... eventually they'll either crumble or will be exalted when they realize that even gods can die, but when that happens might be too late.

As said, (here I'll base myself on gaunt's ghosts) sapace amriens are almsot mythics. In Salvation Reach of the Gaunt ghost series, 3 space marines were doing a better job on a front then over a 100 ghosts (that are pretty badass for IG).

The guards usually win vs their foe thanks to huge numbers and their armor that is jsut bad ass. Space marines are there to do key surgical strike. Versus Alien races like Eldar or orks, space mariens are a must to keep the balance. Maybe the IoM would not prerish without the SM chapters, but it would ahve a hard time fighting the alien races and the chaos forces (chaos marines, they are pretty badass lore wise too). Also, I don't see guards holding a tyrranid Hive fleet for long like the Ultramarines did on Maccrage for example.

Serder wrote:As said, (here I'll base myself on gaunt's ghosts) sapace amriens are almsot mythics. In Salvation Reach of the Gaunt ghost series, 3 space marines were doing a better job on a front then over a 100 ghosts (that are pretty badass for IG).

The guards usually win vs their foe thanks to huge numbers and their armor that is jsut bad ass. Space marines are there to do key surgical strike. Versus Alien races like Eldar or orks, space mariens are a must to keep the balance. Maybe the IoM would not prerish without the SM chapters, but it would ahve a hard time fighting the alien races and the chaos forces (chaos marines, they are pretty badass lore wise too). Also, I don't see guards holding a tyrranid Hive fleet for long like the Ultramarines did on Maccrage for example.

IIRC there is a story in the IG codex of a Vostroyan regiment holding off a hive fleet in a besieged city for a long time until they realized the futility, let the Tyranids in and nuked the city, killing 80% of the hive fleet and causing the rest to starve in the winter. Regardless, marines probably are a better force since they are so few you aren't really feeding the Hive fleet when you lose like with the guard, and because they are individually a big threat.

There are enough Imperial Guardsmen to literally crush the Space Marines... with their combined weight...
That's without shooting their guns...
The Space Marines would do a lot of damage but they don't have the numbers to beat the Imperial Guard...

In an "open" battle the IG would win eventually due to sheer numbers.

But if say even half of the current 1 million Marines rebelled and began a march on Terra, nobody would be able to mobilize enough power to stop them. The Imperium is overstretched enough as it is. They could destroy the Imperium.

Look at just 4 rebelling chapters did in the Badab War. Now imagine 500.

Harriticus wrote:In an "open" battle the IG would win eventually due to sheer numbers.

But if say even half of the current 1 million Marines rebelled and began a march on Terra, nobody would be able to mobilize enough power to stop them. The Imperium is overstretched enough as it is. They could destroy the Imperium.

Look at just 4 rebelling chapters did in the Badab War. Now imagine 500.

That's true we forgot that part. If the IoM had another Horus Heresy type of war. Where aroudn half of the chapters rebeleed, the IGs would have to stay on the frontlines as to not lose ground toa ll the other races, continue to fight chaos and heresy ont heir world AND deal with a new inside threat. The IoM would not be able to muster enough forces to overrun the rebelling SMs without losing a lot of ground. Add to this, the worlds the said SMs were helping defend are going to be loss, I don't think the IoM would survive it. It wouldnt die immeidatly, but it would eb crippled and another race would become prevalent in the galaxy.

purplefood wrote:There are enough Imperial Guardsmen to literally crush the Space Marines... with their combined weight...
That's without shooting their guns...

Nice play on words, made me smile

The Imperial Guard & the Astartes are both vital to the survival of the Imperium. There are objectives that the Astartes could not complete but the Guard could and vice-versa. Without the Guard the Imperium would fall apart very quickly until only a core set of worlds, perhaps even just Terra & the surrounding planets, left under the control of the Astartes as they do not have the numbers to fight whole armies, nor the capability to quickly replenish any losses they suffer. On the other hand if the Astartes no longer existed the Imperium would have major problems as the roles that the Astartes currently fill would have to be filled by humans and both the physical & psychological capabilities of regular humans are far behind those of the Space Marines so they'd be less effective at those roles.

Most of the time Guard are not respected because they are the down-trodden in BL novels;

"Oh no, the Guard on this planet are being decimated! What are we going to do? They can't do this themselves!"
"Not to worry the Space Marines are here!"
"Hooray! They'll save the day, because obviously the Guard can't look as though they're competant outside of Abnett's works."

Astartes are the poster-boys of the Imperium & 40k, so they have to be 'promoted' at every available opportunity. This is why there are loads of books on the Astartes, as they are the core of 40k. Don't worry though Russ, some of us respect the Guard more than the Astartes.

Russ Mandarin wrote:So if a conflict like this ever jumped off and every loyalist chapter banded together against the IG the chances of the Space Marines winning are still pretty low.

Well, it depends on what other factors are involved. Does the IN fight with the Guard, or the Astartes? Seeing as all the loyalist Marine Chapters have banded together into one uber-force, it would also depend on whether the Guard have unified, or remain scattered across the galaxy. In either case, without the Navy, the Astartes would curbstomp the Guard. With the Navy, they would grind down the Astartes through attrition if unified into one force. If they remain scattered, then the Astartes win again, as they plough their way through each sector (divide & conquer style).

I mean in my opinion if you take away the Guard the IoM is basically done for but if you take away the Space Marines the IoM can still mantain.

If you take away the Guard then the IoM could still survive, it's just that all Astartes would be recalled and Imperial-controlled space would shrink to a fraction of its current size. If you take away the Astartes then many of the Imperiums currently impregnable territories become extremely vulnerable, the overstretched and outmatched human armies throughout the galaxy find themselves being worn away and pushed back without their superhuman allies, and the current "hold-the-line" stalemate at the IoM's edges start to collapse.

Basically, it's only through every single asset and military force the IoM has working in (comparable) unison that's stopping the whole thing being torn apart. Take away either one of them and the slowly decaying Imperium just had its lifespan significantly shortened.

Let's use a feudal analogy:

Think of Medieval warfare. Right now.

I bet there's a 90% chance that the first things you thought of were Knights

Japan? You might think of Samurai.

In both settings we have prominent members of a warrior caste who actually did a minority of the fighting, yet capture our imaginations. Peasants/Ashigaru did the majority of the killing and dying and yet they'd never have been honoured anywhere near as much as a Knight.

Even today one might argue that the most influential war heroes are the officers or members of elite military branches.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

purplefood wrote:There are enough Imperial Guardsmen to literally crush the Space Marines... with their combined weight...
That's without shooting their guns...

Nice play on words, made me smile

It's not a play on words...
If every single Imperial Guardsman jumped on top of every single Space Marine the SM would be crushed (as in literally crushed) before they ran out of Guardsmen...

Supreme Imperial Commander Jibblywinks:

'Yo Space Marines, why don't we all meet on this planet.'


Marneus Calgar (the supreme leader of all Space Marines that every Space Marine secretly wishes he could be):

'That makes no strategic sense.'


Jibblywinks:

'Coward!'


Calgar:

'One does not insult the honour of the ULTRAMARINES! You're on!'


*On the planet*

Jibblywinks:
'BUUUUUNDLE!'

what about terminator armor? These thigns can lift more than normal power armor! and they can open god damn land raiders with their chain fists!

Serder wrote:what about terminator armor? These thigns can lift more than normal power armor! and they can open god damn land raiders with their chain fists!

Yeah, but there are uncounted billions of Imperial Guardsmen...
If they can literally squash SM then i think they can beat them in a war...
Though a shed load of people would die first...

Sm armor is a bit over rated really. You hit them with enough firepower and it creaks , just like anything else. And the IG has the firepower.

The IG aren't as respected as the SM because in that fight, the IG would outnumber the SM a hundred to one, and the SM would still probably inflict heavy casualties (or win depending on who you let write it).

If it was an all out Imperial Guard vs Space Marines....


The sheer weight of numbers alone would decimate the Space Marines. it may take a hundred or more men per marine but the IG have men to spare in spades.

plus the armor and tanks would crush them utterly. The Predator, rhino, Land Raiders and all may be good but against legions of Leman Russes, Basilisks, chimeras etc they are nothing but toys, and don't forget the Baneblades and all the other super heavys.

Aircraft wise... technecally the Space marines win as the IG doesn't have dedicated Aircraft (thats the Navys job).


but either way sheer weight of firepower from trillions of soldiers, millions of tanks and more would crush the Space marines.

Space Marines and IG both play vital roles in the Imperium and to lose either one would be a crushing blow.

Engine of War wrote:If it was an all out Imperial Guard vs Space Marines....


The sheer weight of numbers alone would decimate the Space Marines. it may take a hundred or more men per marine but the IG have men to spare in spades.

plus the armor and tanks would crush them utterly. The Predator, rhino, Land Raiders and all may be good but against legions of Leman Russes, Basilisks, chimeras etc they are nothing but toys, and don't forget the Baneblades and all the other super heavys.

Aircraft wise... technecally the Space marines win as the IG doesn't have dedicated Aircraft (thats the Navys job).


but either way sheer weight of firepower from trillions of soldiers, millions of tanks and more would crush the Space marines.

Space Marines and IG both play vital roles in the Imperium and to lose either one would be a crushing blow.

True, but for the IGs or the SMs to use their vehicle effectively, they will need the mechanicum. Whoever the mecanichum sides with will probably since that side woudl get Titan Legions support!

Serder wrote:

Engine of War wrote:If it was an all out Imperial Guard vs Space Marines....


The sheer weight of numbers alone would decimate the Space Marines. it may take a hundred or more men per marine but the IG have men to spare in spades.

plus the armor and tanks would crush them utterly. The Predator, rhino, Land Raiders and all may be good but against legions of Leman Russes, Basilisks, chimeras etc they are nothing but toys, and don't forget the Baneblades and all the other super heavys.

Aircraft wise... technecally the Space marines win as the IG doesn't have dedicated Aircraft (thats the Navys job).


but either way sheer weight of firepower from trillions of soldiers, millions of tanks and more would crush the Space marines.

Space Marines and IG both play vital roles in the Imperium and to lose either one would be a crushing blow.

True, but for the IGs or the SMs to use their vehicle effectively, they will need the mechanicum. Whoever the mecanichum sides with will probably since that side woudl get Titan Legions support!

Good point. but somethign tells me they would be more concerned with the well fare of the little tanks and things then who won!

Russ Mandarin wrote:I mean in my opinion if you take away the Guard the IoM is basically done for but if you take away the Space Marines the IoM can still mantain.

Actually, it's explicitly stated in the Rulebook (I think) that without the Astartes the Imperium would have fallen long ago. In a ground engagement, the Imperial Guard would win. There's no question about that. The Imperial Guard vastly outnumber the Astartes in terms of heavy tanks, let alone everything else. If the Imperial Navy doesn't get involved then the Guard can't actually win when the Astartes have spaceships, but I don't think that that was really being thought of.

Among the fans, the Imperial Guard are often respected as much as the Astartes because they're just normally trained soldiers for the most part, as opposed to being hypno-indoctrinated supersoldiers. As said, in the setting the Astartes are the Emperors Angels of Death. They are His creation and an instrument of His divine will. That's why they're so highly praised.

Fezman wrote:I do agree that the Imperium would last longer with just the Guard than it would with just the Astartes

Without the Guard, the Imperium would crumble instantly.

Exterminatus, Space Marines win~

Russ Mandarin wrote:So if a conflict like this ever jumped off and every loyalist chapter banded together against the IG the chances of the Space Marines winning are still pretty low.
In light of this, how come the IG are not as respected as the astartes? I mean in my opinion if you take away the Guard the IoM is basically done for but if you take away the Space Marines the IoM can still mantain.

In any realistic estimation, the Astartes are a meaningless military force when looking at the massed might of the Imperium. Even given the codex give values of 10/12 guardsmen for each space marine, if you were to multiply that by a thousand fold and compare it to the given strength of the Imperial guard listed as *billions* of regiments (plural) composed of thousands to hundreds of thousands of troops each, the entirety of the Astartes doesn't match the military value of the IG's hourly galactic recruitment.

We're talking, at full strength (which they're never at) One Million (1,000,000 )Space Marines against Trillions (X,000,000,000,000)of guardsmen if not tens or hundreds of trillions of guardsmen. In other words, at minimum, you're looking at several million (or tens of millions) guardsmen per *EACH* Space Marine. A Space Marine, according to the quote from Rogal Dorn, is worth ~10 human troops, maybe more. Even assuming we multiply Rogal Dorn's estimation a thousand fold, we're still looking at the entirety of the Astartes being a very small, in fact negligible, % of the IG's fighting strength.

The IG could swallow the Astartes whole and never notice the casualties so long as Plot Armor (an author deciding an outcome regardless of the factors arrayed against one side) doesn't play into it.


The vast majority of the Imperium's wars never see a single Space Marine boot, they are fought entirely by the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy and in the vast majority of cases they are won (otherwise the Imperium would be a smoking ruin by this point).



The issue is that GW and BL writers really don't understand the numbers they put out or their implications, and they continually have the SM's end up winning through what amounts to "Just Because" or simply exaggerating the SM's in stories until they meet the scale of their opponent.

Simply put, the SM's are the poster boys and they get the plot armor and marketing time, the IG are not and so don't. Any realistic estimation would see the Astartes are irrelevant as a fighting force.


One will notice that during the Heresy, the Legions travelled with huge fleets and directly commanded unimaginably vast armies of Imperial Army troops, and when Abaddon launches his Black Crusades, the Traitor Legions are the very fine tip of a very large spear composed of mutants, renegades, and traitors of more humble origins.

Vaktathi wrote:In any realistic estimation, the Astartes are a meaningless military force when looking at the massed might of the Imperium.

Simply put, the SM's are the poster boys and they get the plot armor and marketing time, the IG are not and so don't. Any realistic estimation would see the Astartes are irrelevant as a fighting force.

I think going so far as to call the entire Astartes "meaningless" and "irrelevant" is perhaps a tad overboard. The main problem with your point is the word "realistic". Of course, you start throwing that word around and sure, the games developers and background writers at GW are complete idiots. The reason for that, is because they are games developers and background writers, who are trying to make a fun, flavourful, balanced and distinctly un-realistic tabletop hobby. They're not military professionals with real experience in the logistics of war.

Now, even with that all aside, the point with the SM is that it's because of their military relevance and their potency as a fighting force that their numbers are so low, not the other way around. The setting is specifically written that way, in order to have the galaxy in a perpetual state of warfare. It there were millions of them, GW would start running out of excuses as to why non of the xenos or traitors have been stomped yet. This way they get a grimdark setting that can still have heroics and exceptional individuals performing inspiring feats in battle - all in an effort to get players to spend all their money recreating them on the tabletop.

The SM are still one of many factions for 40K, their involvement and history goes hand-in-hand with the history of the setting itself. Don't take me for a SM fanboy, either, I love Guard novels and the only SM novel I've read was awful (probably more to do with the author than the subject matter, I'd imagine). Non of the factions are meaningless or irrelevant, they all contribute to the hobby setting. Yes, they are the poster boys, and yes, they undoubtedly get an unproportionate amount of coverage by BL and other 40K publications... but saying that they are worthless as a faction is going too extreme in the other direction.

Anfauglir wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:In any realistic estimation, the Astartes are a meaningless military force when looking at the massed might of the Imperium.

Simply put, the SM's are the poster boys and they get the plot armor and marketing time, the IG are not and so don't. Any realistic estimation would see the Astartes are irrelevant as a fighting force.

I think going so far as to call the entire Astartes "meaningless" and "irrelevant" is perhaps a tad overboard.

From a comparative standpoint it's true however. I'm not trying to put down anyone's favorite faction, simply approaching it from calculus of war standpoint, what the IG raises every hour could replace the Astartes. I'm not trying to make it out like SM's don't have a place in the game universe, only that the numbers given by GW and BL are silly and don't make sense if we accept the SM's place of power, or vice versa, the SM's place of power is silly if we accept the numbers given.

The main problem with your point is the word "realistic". Of course, you start throwing that word around and sure, the games developers and background writers at GW are complete idiots. The reason for that, is because they are games developers and background writers, who are trying to make a fun, flavourful, balanced and distinctly un-realistic tabletop hobby. They're not military professionals with real experience in the logistics of war.

Right, which is why the whole universe is really more Fantasy in Space than anything else. I'm simply making the point that the numbers they throw about stop making sense when you look at them, even without much of a military background, and simply compare the orders of magnitude and the relative scale of the Galaxy.

Now, even with that all aside, the SM are still one of many factions for 40K, their involvement and history goes hand-in-hand with the history of the setting itself. Don't take me for a SM fanboy, either, I love Guard novels and the only SM novel I've read was awful (probably more to do with the author than the subject matter, I'd imagine). Non of the factions are meaningless or irrelevant, they all contribute to the hobby setting. Yes, they are the poster boys, and yes, they undoubtedly get an unproportionate amount of coverage by BL and other 40K publications... but saying that they are worthless as a faction is going too extreme in the other direction.

I'm not saying the SM's are irrelevant to the story of the game universe, only that, from any sort of cursory analysis of the numbers given, they really are vastly overblown in their place in the universe. I'm not trying to hate, I play an SM faction (Iron Warriors CSM's). One must just realize that when it comes to the Astartes and their capabilities, a most of it boils down to rule of cool and plot armor, and that's why they, and not another faction, hold the place they do.

Vaktathi wrote:I'm not trying to put down anyone's favorite faction, simply approaching it from calculus of war standpoint, what the IG raises every hour could replace the Astartes.

Yes, but looking at it the other way, you have to ask yourself why the IoM needs to keep pumping out those Guardsmen every hour, and conversely, why that same hourly rate in Marines are still kicking around in battle.

Anfauglir wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I'm not trying to put down anyone's favorite faction, simply approaching it from calculus of war standpoint, what the IG raises every hour could replace the Astartes.

Yes, but looking at it the other way, you have to ask yourself why the IoM needs to keep pumping out those Guardsmen every hour

Because they face unimagineably vast hordes of horrors invading across fronts of tens of thousands of light years and alien empires attacking everywhere, and dissent from within necessitating a constant state of total war. Simply put, they've got a million worlds, and even if they're only fighting on 1% of them (meaning, proportionally less area than is experiencing conflict today in the modern world) that still means 10,000 worlds at war.

and conversely, why that same hourly rate in Marines are still kicking around in battle.

Plot armor primarily, there's that disconnect I mentioned earlier. Primarily because the writers don't write them as they actually describe them. If they were constantly in battle as they are described, with the casualties they are portrayed as sustaining (even if its just a guy or two in each squad every other time they go out), all the Space Marines would be dead within a couple of standard earth years, especially given the way new SM's are recruited and the manner in which many chapters go about doing this.

If they increased the number of Space Marines, they'd make a lot more sense. As is, they're too small a fighting force relative to the IG and relative to the area they have to cover and opponents they have to face to really make sense and having the impact that they do in the fluff. 1 million in a galaxy is like having one SAS Commando or 1 Navy Seal to defeat the Chinese People's Liberation Army and conquer all of China.